Superfest – The almost unbreakable East German Glass (2021)
192 points
13 days ago
| 15 comments
| digitalcosmonaut.com
| HN
lispm
13 days ago
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There was a recent kickstarter project from a German company for Glass bottles based on this technology:

https://www.soulbottles.de/en/ultraglass

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulkupfer/ultraglass-s...

Recent update:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulkupfer/ultraglass-s...

The research for this was done at the University of Bayreuth: https://www.glas.uni-bayreuth.de/en/projects/strongbottles/i...

German TV reported about the background here, 20:45 onwards:

https://www.3sat.de/wissen/nano/240315-sendung-epigenetik-ar...

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lispm
13 days ago
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Another company (Revisalt, an university spinoff in Freiberg/Germany) claims that time and cost for producing such chemical strengthened glass has been much improved:

https://www.cfh.de/en/neues-investment-revisalt-gmbh/

https://revisalt.com/en/

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leeoniya
13 days ago
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> While the Superfest glass is by far more durable than normal glass, when they shatter – the burst into a million fine pieces and are a total nightmare to clean up. I’m not sure if it’s because of their potassium chloride coating or because they are made to be super thin, my advice is to not drop them.

maybe the same reason [the super hard] prince rupert's drops explode. really high internal stress.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xe-f4gokRBs

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formerly_proven
13 days ago
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Yes, exactly. It's essentially gorilla glass, except gorilla glass in displays is laminated so the shards tend to stick around.
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wizardforhire
13 days ago
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For anyone interested in making their own gorlla glass…

https://youtube.com/watch?v=y02AXdec1sE

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leidenfrost
13 days ago
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Well you can laminate both sides of the glass to achieve the same effect
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MichaelZuo
13 days ago
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The laminate layer likely reacts somewhat to strong acids in food and drink.
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iamgopal
13 days ago
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Usually lamination comes in between.
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fr4nkr
13 days ago
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Unsurprising, but I'd still totally buy a Superfest glass set with this in mind. I've owned glassware that was both fragile and prone to exploding into jagged particles, and it wasn't very cheap, either.
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saaaaaam
13 days ago
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I have some toughened cocktail glasses made by a commercial (i.e. for bars and restaurants) company called Utopia.

As I was making cocktails one evening I accidentally knocked an empty glass from my kitchen worktop onto my stone-tiled kitchen floor. I was astonished when the glass bounced on its rim and rebounded back up in the air. I somehow managed to catch it. Not the slightest damage. Five years later that glass is still in use.

I bought a box of 12 because that was the smallest quantity they came in, but normally only use two. So I think that box will last me for 20 years or more. They are incredible.

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Doxin
11 days ago
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We have a bunch of "duralex" glasses that are similarly resistant. We went to buy some more a while ago and I'm sad to say all the new ones have shattered since. The old ones are still going strong though!
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sss111
12 days ago
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do you have a link to buy this by any chance..?
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saaaaaam
12 days ago
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ChuffedToBits
12 days ago
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TacticalCoder
13 days ago
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In the EU we have, since decades, the "Arcoroc" brand and it does glasses and plates that really do not break easily. As teenagers we'd have fun with others who weren't aware: we'd take a pile of plates in our left hand and tell the other person "catch them all, quick!" and throw with our right hand plates one after another.

Invariably he'd miss one then many and be in a state of panic and yet none would break when hitting the kitchen floor.

Silly teenagers we were. I see that brand is still around. It's solid.

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schappim
13 days ago
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I just watched a good YouTube video on this topic yesterday[1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEvBpjCOBu0

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tommiegannert
13 days ago
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"How Communists Made Unbreakable Glass"

What a loaded headline.

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oplaadpunt
13 days ago
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No, I don't think it is loaded, or at least not unnecessarily. The communist background of the glass is an important element in the video. Especially when they discuss the fact they couldn't sell it in the west, due to (tendencies of) capitalism.
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squishysquid
11 days ago
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That they made it in east germany and made up an excuse for being bad at sales?

corning the guys they bring up at the very end is also the company that did pyrex. they spun that business off in the 90s. They don't mention that because you'd recognize it and go "wait my cabinet's been full of that my whole life"

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jajko
13 days ago
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You dont understand communism then, and didnt grow up under such regime.

Most people involved in such projects were far from what you can call communists, not involved with regine, not members of the party (or if they were it was just to be allowed certain positions in the system, literal ticking checkbox on the requirements list), some even secretly hating it and conspiring against it. This reductionism is unnecessary and outright incorrect.

One can claim it was invented in communist East Germany (although the official name was literally German democratic republic), and thats about it.

You also slap 'invented by american capitalists' onto every single invention coming out of US of past 250 years?

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mfru
13 days ago
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it is wild how often people will respond with red scare rhetoric once the scary c-word drops.
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throw10920
13 days ago
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It isn't that wild, really, that people who have even the most basic awareness of history are concerned about the spread of the single most destructive ideology in all of history.
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takeda
13 days ago
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Communism problem is that it goes together with authoritarianism and corruption.

Yes, you can get both of those things with capitalism, just look at Russia, but looks like they are more likely to happen with communism.

Authoritarianism is responsible for many people's deaths, while corruption is why things were so bad that it pushed for invention of this.

The reason why the glass is not popular right now is because we as consumers are perfectly fine with this. We let companies get away with it instead of voting with our wallets. Nearly all of us are guilty purchasing smart phones that won't last longer than 2 years, pre-paying for games when companies frequently stiffed us that way. Almost no one puts time to research which companies produce quality product so such manufacturers frequently go out of business.

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tomohawk
13 days ago
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Mass killings by communist governments are a thing. And that's just one of the bad things about communism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_...

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olddustytrail
13 days ago
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Mass killings by capitalist governments are also a thing. Why are you ignoring those?
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snowpid
13 days ago
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Please tell me more about capitalist gulags.
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butterknife
13 days ago
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snowpid
13 days ago
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Soviet gulag had just 18x more prisoners. Most of them weren't related to enemy country.
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jijijijij
12 days ago
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You are shifting the goal post.
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olddustytrail
12 days ago
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You've had another response but why would you restrict it to gulags? The genocide of the native American peoples seems a more obvious example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_...
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p_l
13 days ago
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> You also slap 'invented by american capitalists' onto every single invention coming out of US of past 250 years

Try criticising capitalism and you'll soon encounter exactly that rhetoric, even for things that exist only thanks to government direct action (the most socialist org in USA, the Department of Defense, is directly and indirectly responsible for huge part of innovation that people assign to "capitalism" despite it having little to do with it)

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takeda
13 days ago
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More accurate title would be "How Germans invented unbreakable glass due to shortages caused by Communism"
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lispm
13 days ago
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> The communist background of the glass is an important element in the video. Especially when they discuss the fact they couldn't sell it in the west, due to (tendencies of) capitalism.

And that's nonsense. The real problem was the reunification and the collapse of the East German economy. The East Germans got rid of their government, peacefully and the result was the unification of a protected plan economy to an open social market system (West Germany did not and still does not have US style capitalism -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy ). The East German market was not having access to current technologies and raw materials (for example due to the lack of money to buy on the world market). The companies in the east were not competitive and they lost their protecting system.

There were LOTS of glass manufacturers, both in West Germany and in the surrounding countries. Those were eager to take the market and a small and expensive glass production was an easy victim. There are lots of examples where GDR products were replaced by Western products, which were much more efficient in production and distribution.

It has very little to do with "capitalism", just that there was a much larger and more efficient market around, eager to take over. The "communist" economy wasn't communist and it was behind a self-built "protective" wall. When the wall collapsed and the system which protected the wall collapsed (-> the whole eastern Europe incl. the former Soviet Union largely collapsed), then during reunification of East and West Germany, the East German economy also collapsed (products were no longer competitive, lost their markets, etc.). The West German companies did not have the time to protect small scale producers, their problem was to deliver on the expectations of the East Germans: create same living standards, provide access to the larger market without scarce products.

For the East German population it was mostly clear, they wanted to buy western products, which for a long time were either not available or far too expensive or both. East German brands were out of fashion.

The attraction of the West German economy and political system, together with the failure of the East German system (and its soviet-influenced model), caused the collapse of the political and economic system of the GDR.

Later the "Ostalgie" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostalgie ) made people aware that there was also a loss: familiar brands were gone, familiar products were gone, jobs were gone, people were gone, (-> many went to West Germany to work there) western products were not always better, ...

TLDR; -> the company was a victim of the turmoil of the reunification and introduction of a larger&open economy.

Side note: that East Germans needed to take care of scarce products (see the cars which had long waiting lists) did not mean that the East German production was environmentally friendly. Just the opposite, East German production was as environmentally unfriendly or even more, as in the West. An environmental movement (like the Greens in West Germany) was not possible in the one-party-rules system of the GDR dictatorship. Later, a lot of production got closed(& sometimes replaced) because of old and dirty factories and production processes.

Side note 2: Germany now has a large scale "Mehrweg- und Pfandsystem" for bottles. This means that in any super market one can buy bottles of, say, beer and one pays a higher price. The markets are required to take back the empty bottles and pay the consumer the "Flaschenpfand" (bottle deposit). Bottles get reused a lot (50 times) and this system has 43% market share. One can imagine that lighter/more durable glass bottles might have an advantage in such a system. Currently we see either heavy glass bottles or lighter plastic bottles (reused 25 times).

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flohofwoe
13 days ago
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> Side note 2: Germany now has a large scale "Mehrweg- und Pfandsystem" for bottles.

This was already standard procedure in East Germany though, pretty much everything from glass bottles (via a "Pfandsystem" much the same as today's minus the deposit machines) to paper to scrap metal was recycled. We even had regular 'waste paper collections' at school which were organized like a competition. This had little to do with environmentalism but instead to get more independent from resource imports.

(as you mentioned, the environment was much worse off in East Germany than it is today, especially around industrial locations)

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lispm
13 days ago
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Thanks for the comment!

Wikipedia describes that here (in German): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/SERO

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kdmtctl
12 days ago
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It was basically the same across the Soviet Block. Used to grow in a former USSR republic and did exactly this.
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darby_eight
13 days ago
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> It has very little to do with "capitalism", just that there was a much larger and more efficient market around, eager to take over

Great! Where can i buy coke in this glass?

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lispm
13 days ago
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You can buy such glass on ebay and fill it with the coke of your choice. Search for superfest and ddr.
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darby_eight
12 days ago
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So much for capitalism providing an efficient market
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lispm
12 days ago
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They provide the Coke and you provide a glass. Sounds efficient for me. That's how I usually handle it, when buying beverages.

You can get old used Superfest glasses on ebay for 10$ per piece. That's sustainable capitalism: they don't get thrown away and the seller makes a great price.

Plus: you can get the original DDR/GDR design from 30 years ago and fill it with any beverage you want.

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squishysquid
11 days ago
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wherever having a 5$ deposit on a coke bottle makes sense?
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snowpid
13 days ago
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Sorry Eastern Germany was a communist place. Lefties are just angry that it failed so they do the usual excuse ("it was better than Capitalism" to "Usa is the reason why it wasn't working" to "It wasnt real communism." To "we should try communism." )

The most productive areas of Eastern Germany were private but Commies didn't like it so they shut it down in 70s. Hence Eastern Germany became poor.

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flohofwoe
13 days ago
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It was called "real socialism" (or "Real existierender Sozialismus" in German), because the party elite was fully aware that the promises of a socialist utopia collided hard with reality in East Germany (and the rest of the Eastern Europe socialist countries). So the propanda idea was basically to hold the carrot dangling in front of the people of achieving "actual socialism" as a first step, and then at some later point (maybe a few hundred years in the future) "communism" (as envisioned by Marx/Engels) - "just work harder and then it will get better, you'll see Genosse!".

Of course nobody in their right mind believed such bullshit (not even most party members).

Private companies were shut down a lot earlier than the 70's, more like the 50s and early 60s. Later this was relaxed again. It was actually possible again in the 80s to run a small privately owned business (my parents were both self-employed). A privately owned company in East Germany still doesn't mean that there's any competition though, or ability to be better off than a worker in a state-owned company. The entire economic enviornment just wasn't compatibly with the idea of running a business that's not controlled by the state.

Still, compared to some of the poorer Eastern European countries, East German people were somewhat well off. Maybe on a level like Portugal or Greece, but of course piss-poor when compared to West Germany. And in any case much worse when it comes to personal freedom of course (which was a much more critical problem than the economic problems).

Also, all those things don't change the fact that East German engineers sometimes came up with brilliant solutions despite the less than ideal conditions.

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forgetfreeman
13 days ago
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One hardly needs to be either a leftist or angry about anything to accept the rather obvious critique of capitalism that the general lack of durable products on the market provokes. It is fairly uncontroversial that designed obsolescence is ubiquitous.
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throw10920
13 days ago
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> accept the rather obvious critique of capitalism that the general lack of durable products on the market provokes

This doesn't have anything to do with capitalism, but apathy of consumers. The lack of durable products is because consumers don't value durable products enough to seek them out and pay more for them. In a communist or command economy, the exact same thing would happen if the leader decreed that goods needed to be cheaply made. There's nothing intrinsic to capitalism here.

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ginko
13 days ago
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I have a set of French Vereco (now Duralex I believe) dishes and bowls[1] from the 60s or 70s which I'm the third generation in my family to use and own.

The tempered glass is almost indestructible as well. I can only remember one time when one of them broke when I dropped it (like with Superfest it'd smash into a million pieces).

You regularly find similar Vereco glassware in thrift stores and flea markets. Mainly because it's almost indestructible. Mine are getting a bit scratched up by now so I'm considering getting new tableware but it's kind of hard replacing something that still works perfectly fine.

[1] Like this: https://l-art-copenhagen.com/products/526194

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morsch
13 days ago
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You can buy vintage Vereco glassware for 400 EUR/8 pc -- probably less in a thrift store --, or new Duralex glasses for like 40 EUR/12 pc. They're not fancy and they're not expensive. I've stopped doing the party trick of intentionally dropping them to show how sturdy they are because they do break sometimes and it's a huge mess.
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kergonath
13 days ago
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Duralex glasses are impressively durable. I am not quite sure how they make them, but they bounce several times when dropped. I don’t recall them exploding in tiny shards either, but I may be misremembering.

Incidentally. They seem to be close to bankruptcy (again) and to be looking for investors.

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Agingcoder
13 days ago
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They’re widely used in school canteens for their durability - like pub owners in the article !
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orthoxerox
13 days ago
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It seems like everyone I know owns at least one piece from their Beau Rivage (swirly brown) set they bought in the 90's. And Auchan had a huge sale of them (the same pattern!) a few years back.
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BugsJustFindMe
13 days ago
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People get so into this romantic fantasy of sturdy glass. Simultaneously completely blinded to the downsides and believing that we don't have, CAN'T POSSIBLY have, widely available modern equivalents, because "evil capitalism".

Y'all, it's called Corelle, and you can buy it literally everywhere. It's extremely available. Ubiquitous even. And it's just not worth it for the same reason given right there at the very end in the epilogue:

> While the Superfest glass is by far more durable than normal glass, when they shatter – they burst into a million fine pieces and are a total nightmare to clean up. I’m not sure if it’s because of their potassium chloride coating or because they are made to be super thin, my advice is to not drop them.

The reality is that the failure mode absolutely sucks. Dropping one and having it survive is a neat party trick, but all it takes is one break for the observer to completely swear off the experience forever.

Google "corelle exploded".

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Doxin
11 days ago
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> The reality is that the failure mode absolutely sucks. Dropping one and having it survive is a neat party trick, but all it takes is one break for the observer to completely swear off the experience forever.

I'd much rather sweep up the equivalent of very coarse sand than deal with shards of glass. There's no need to keep the dog away, or wrap the stuff in a newspaper so you don't shred the bin bag etc. You just sweep it up and are done with it.

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forgetfreeman
13 days ago
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Google Corelle Brands bankruptcy.
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BugsJustFindMe
13 days ago
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That's Corelle Brands (previously Instant Brands) the holding company.

Corelle is also a product brand owned by said holding company and their still massively available primary products use their Vitrelle hardened glass material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corelle

not

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corelle_Brands

GM's bankruptcy was very similar to Instant Brands', and they haven't gone anywhere.

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mNovak
13 days ago
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Yeah, also came here to point out Corelle. For many years I had a set of Corelle plates and bowls and such that they sold at Target, cheap and aimed at college students.

Likely there's a very mundane reason it hasn't replaced all standard glassware, such as being slightly more expensive or having limited design shapes/forms (thinking of the plates). This doesn't exactly strike me as "evil capitalism," just "throwaway culture". The difference is the consumer makes that choice when both options are available, but one is cheaper.

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BugsJustFindMe
13 days ago
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IMO the reason it hasn't replaced all standard glassware is that the pro of surviving some drops is massively outweighed by the con of sometimes exploding. People just are not dropping their dishes all the time, and when they do they would rather not have to deal with a kinetic burst of razor shrapnel.
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samatman
13 days ago
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It should surprise no one to learn that, in fact, capitalism both can, and does, manufacture ion treated glassware. To this very day!

https://www.toyo.sasaki.co.jp/e/brand/fine-crystal/

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ahf8Aithaex7Nai
13 days ago
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I'm not surprised you have to go all the way to Japan to find an example of this.
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avianlyric
13 days ago
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There’s also a European company that sells ion-exchange strengthened glassware.

Nude Glass’s Stem Zero and Ghost Zero line of glassware is made of this stuff.

https://eu.nudeglass.com/pages/introducing-ghost-zero

https://eu.nudeglass.com/pages/introducing-stem-zero

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samatman
13 days ago
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You don't.

Ion-strengthened glassware is manufactured in at least Turkey (Nude glass), France (Duralex) and Portugal (closed the tab and don't remember).

There doesn't appear to be a US brand making glassware with the process, which is a shame. But the US is the leading manufacturer of ion-strengthened glass for technical products, supplying Asian brands. You probably have a piece of it in your pocket.

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atlas_hugged
13 days ago
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Exactly what I was thinking. They’re one of the two “puzzling” countries for economists, Argentina being the other.
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yorwba
13 days ago
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This might be the right place to ask whether anyone is still making vases out of the beautiful iridescent glass popular among Jugendstil artists e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vase_6_Glasfabrik_Jo...

I think it's still possible to source this kind of glass as sheets – https://www.delphiglass.com/oceanside-compatible-glass-96-co... seems to come pretty close in appearance – but I can't seem to find anyone selling consumer products made out of it. (Unless they make replicas and sell them as "authentic Jugendstil ca. 1908")

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jpgvm
13 days ago
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Awesome, this is exactly what I was looking for but couldn't find the search terms for.
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pxmpxm
13 days ago
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but if that's true, how i can sell that thinly veiled capitalism=bad narrative
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drdrek
13 days ago
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I don't get the Capitalism bashing aspect of the article. You can find reinforced glassware, its just more expensive so you don't hear a lot about it. It's not planed obsolescence, its customer preference.
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iamgopal
13 days ago
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I make pumps that are 5 to 10 times expensive than Chinese pumps and 5 to 10 times durable, I sell 1/10 as much as Chinese pumps. This is restricting research in improving pump, instead all research goes in reducing the cost.
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lostlogin
13 days ago
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Doesn’t this represent equal market share with the Chinese in terms of revenue?
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karaterobot
13 days ago
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In this article, the author makes the claim that very hard glass could not have been invented under capitalism, because capitalists are too focused on things breaking and having to be replaced. Which is ridiculous for any number of reasons, as is the implication that products developed under the economic model of the GDR were typically durable and long-lasting. It seems to be common for people to be both confused about what capitalism and socialism are, and very confident about what they represent.
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rkachowski
13 days ago
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> It all started when I was browsing through some film developing chemicals at one of my preferred photo shops (Fotoimpex).

This must be a pretty old article, as Fotoimpex have renovated and frustratingly removed almost their entire storefront - you can't really browse their merchandise anymore. I've found I have to order through their website despite the store being 30 mins away.

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fmajid
12 days ago
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There's this ancient Roman story about unbreakable glass in Petronius' Satyricon:

https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifacts-ancient-technology...

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amai
13 days ago
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kiney
13 days ago
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I actually have a couple of those Superfest glasses - they were in the house I bough in 2021 (which was full of junk and generall a bit messy). But I have no idea how they got here as the house is in western germany.
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maronato
13 days ago
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Now you can find the same technology being used to create Gorilla Glass, Ceramic Shield, and other hardened glasses.
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rlhf
13 days ago
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The reason for the demise is its quality, interesting survival circumstance.
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