I want to say that if any of you decide to try Hetzner and use their auction process instead of their regular packages - make sure you check out the details for the CPU. I made the mistake of buying an old server on there because it had plenty of RAM, disk space, and bandwidth. Then I saw the CPU was ancient and had only 4 cores.
You know there is something quite unique and strange about Hetzner. They charge you no money until your first invoice date rolls around. So you essentially have access to their servers for free until whenever the next invoice date is. It seems to me... how to say it? Kind of crazy and insanely trusting. But it works, I guess?
The reverse is always surprising to me: as if blocking a credit card constitutes the ending of a contract.
In Europe, a contract isn't entered or broken by making or blocking payment. Companies will very succesfully have their contracts enforced, with any extra costs billed to you. Apart from leaving the country, you're not going to get away with non-payment.
Blocking the credit card is banking on the company not bothering to follow up, or (in case of company misbehavior), forcing them to show up in court and air their dirty laundry in front of the judge.
That's the first time I ever heard of such thing, and I've lived in a few European countries. Some European countries even standardized service payments on direct debit, which worst case scenario leaves a bank holding the bag for the debt.
And showing up in court has costs, which are not guaranteed to be covered in any award/payment order, and even if you win there is still the matter of actually collecting. If it's all a matter of a few hundred dollars, most businesses will just write it off.
Sure, but they are making these contracts with people not in the country in the first place
Hetzner turned off all access to my paid server due to a false-positive on their netscan/DDOS (literally it was tailscaled doing a netcheck) protection and equally incompetent technical support staff.
Can I sue them for breach of contract and subsequent damages? I moved all my hosting off Hetzner as a result, but I'm still very disappointed in their actions.
What was up with the Altra? I have a free instance (4 cores) on oracle cloud. Seems really capable.
I've got a couple AX101s with 4TB drives at around the price for the current AX102s that only have 2tb drives.
How do you feel the pricing with Hetzner compares to others?
If anyone's curious, this is the product Hetzner were using at the time:
That was the case for me when I registered with Hetzner, though that was a few years ago. Then again, I registered for Contabo this month and still had to send my ID and something to prove my address. Their justification was that they're required by law to verify that data (KYC or something), so I guess they have to process that data even with GDPR being a thing.
- AMD 7950X3D
- 16 cores (Zen5)
- 128 GB ECC DDR5
- 2x2TB NVMe
At any other provider this would cost 5-10x the cost.
I know it's because of spam - but it is what it is.
It’s really annoying that this kind of behavior is ruining the reputation of an otherwise great Hoster and making their products inaccessible for large parts of the worlds population.
Really wish the could implement measure to make their products accessible to users from these countries that are heavily restricted
The problem is that the customers interested in that price point are trash customers that only wan't to do all the dodgey stuff hetzner doesn't want them to do. Hetzner will detected it and will firewall the whole server all sites will go down the bad and the good and all of your customers will want refunds even if they where the cause of the problems.
Bad business not worth it.
Or I guess if it's just random servers running random workloads, AWS Fargate
Also, you can always pay the £20 fee; especially so if you’re running a company.
Can you elaborate more on this, does the fee help you get accepted?
I use that for development - I use VSCode with remote extension so the building, running and code indexing happens on the cloud server. Most of the time a small instance is enough, if I need more power I scale it up within seconds, and at the end of the work day (or week) back to a small instance (or shut off).
They have a _huge_ testing lab with insane amounts of testing equipment. I never had any problems with their hardware at all. Networking was not that good years ago but is stellar now.
We ran two dedicated servers at Hetzner for about three years and had two disk failures. These, too, were consumer-grade Seagate disks, and both of them had been in use by prior customers. All in all it was not a bother and we definitely got our money's worth.
New hardware is always a bit risky, so it didn't bother me.
Stellar performance, stable servers with specs as advertised and very good pricing and connectivity.
Great to see OpenBSD is now available as well!
I've worked/played around with BSD back in the 90s and actually never looked back. Tried it here and there within the last 20 years but never found it as versatile as Linux.
Working on macOS (how much BSD is still in that system?) since 6 month now and finally getting used to it. Still feels a bit crippled compared to the tools I used under Windows/Linux.
In contrast, Linux distributions are a collection of software taken from different sources, with all the quirks that may derive from this.
(I don't want to imply that the BSDs have only advantages over Linux and not the other way round, but the OP asked specifically why _BSD over Linux_).
I learned how to perform basic admin tasks for Linux and OpenBSD in the 1990s.
I relearned how to do all those things under Linux at least five times since then, and am facing yet another round of "why the fuck is everything broken (regressed back to worse than 1998 levels of stability) and different again this year?" with my Linux machines.
I recently installed OpenBSD and FreeBSD in VirtualBox VMs and am doing a bake off for my next desktop OS.
FreeBSD is slightly ahead from the "annoyingly terrible stuff works in a pinch" perspective, since I have some windows game getting to a splash screen via LLVMPipe under Steam. (It runs out of DRAM, and needs a GPU that doesn't exist, so I'm counting this as working.)
OpenBSD is ahead from the "if its available at all, then it is solid" perspective.
Both of them are more familiar to me than the Linux desktop that's hosting the Virtual Box VMs.
Also, I'm increasingly concerned about the ethics of the upstream Linux development community. Red Hat's new business model is based on violating the GPL (maybe they are not technically breaking it, though I think they are), and they have enough weight to force the ecosystem to do whatever they want.
They've rammed all sorts of user-hostile crap (most of those regressions, for example) on to my (ubuntu, arch, etc) machines, so it's not just a theoretical concern.
Now find a guide showing you how to do a thing for any of the BSDs. That guide is more usable on one of the other BSDs than any Linux guide is usable on a different distro.
That's one reason. Others include the ability to keep track of what's on a system, since the BSDs don't include the kitchen sink and have good package management, the fact that they're lighter weight than most Linux distros (in some cases significantly), that they're more consistent and more deterministic, the fact that you can literally rebuild the whole kernel and OS trivially, and so on.
There are many reasons, but for me, the one thing that really stands out is cleanliness.
That's simply not true in my experience. Sure, man pages for base utilities are usually interchangeable between BSDs, but the same is true on Linux.
When it comes to the system (init, networking, firewalling, package management, configuration, etc), BSDs are different enough that you'll need your own variant's documentation to make things work properly.
And again, Linux isn't that different there. More often than not a page on the Arch wiki will put you on the right track regardless of your distro of choice.
A lot of the points of differentiation in terms of plumbing layers are slowly eroding away, systemd helped a lot by standardizing things around service files as opposed to the patchwork of init scripts (and OpenRC and everyone else scripts)
I don't know about BSD's being lighter weight than a Linux system, but I don't really know what your baesline of light weight is (Ubuntu? Debian? Arch? Gentoo?)
For more consistent and deterministic systems there's offerings such as Nix and others
As for rebuilding the whole OS and kernel trivially? Gentoo stands out as probably the easiest one in that regard, your entire system can be rebuilt with "emerge -e world"
Of course :)
> A lot of the points of differentiation in terms of plumbing layers are slowly eroding away, systemd helped a lot by standardizing things around service files as opposed to the patchwork of init scripts (and OpenRC and everyone else scripts)
It has been my experience that systemd has been inconsistent from one version of systemd to the next. I've given systemd a fair shake, and even those people who swear that it's the bees' knees haven't been able to help me figure out how to work around somewhat silly issues (in other words, they shouldn't have been telling me how easy it is if they can't even illustrate its ease themselves).
> I don't know about BSD's being lighter weight than a Linux system, but I don't really know what your baesline of light weight is (Ubuntu? Debian? Arch? Gentoo?)
You can't really compare a BSD, or all of the three major direct BSDs, with the best of each Linux distro. Sure, Nix is better at being deterministic, and Debian is much better than the others about not changing gratuitously, and Gentoo can easily rebuild everything, but what happens when you need all of those things in once place?
By lightweight, I mean that I can literally run NetBSD on a VAXstation with 24 megs of RAM, or a Mac LC III+ with 36 megs (http://elsie.zia.io/), where I literally compile everything besides the OS from source, on those machines. Sure, perl takes more than a week, but they work.
This has other benefits: I can easily, without much fuss, run everything I need for a tinc tunnel in 128 megs with tmpfs for logs and no swap on an appliance-like device. It's surprisingly easy to do this starting with the default OS, whereas small Linux systems are often unrecognizable compared with their "normal" distro counterparts.
> Gentoo stands out as probably the easiest one in that regard, your entire system can be rebuilt with "emerge -e world"
Exactly. I love that. It's great, and it'd be wonderful if that were more widespread in other Linux distros.
OTOH, NetBSD takes it further: you can build NetBSD for any architecture on any other so long as you're running a reasonably Unix-like OS with a reasonably relevant compiler.
So, again, Linux in general has so many nice things, but if you want them all in the same place, in the same distro, you're kinda out of luck.
You can, but it's not so much a guide - Ansible roles.
Wise usage of the modules and deconstruction of the personalities (ie: package names, file paths) means a playbook that works for one distribution can work for any.
You can even aim for the stars and support entirely different operating systems!
Not to detract from the cleanliness of BSD - it truly is delightful.
OTOH, if you want to toy around with "edgy" open-source software, I would expect Linux to provide a better experience.
Small and comes with a lot of packages that are only an "apt install" away. I only install packages that I need an check that nothing else is running and/or has open ports.
Don't see this as a pro BSD argument.
I personally enjoy having not to ask myself questions like, which http server I should be using, and just be rolling with whatever's in the box.
I wouldn't be surprised for Debian, and others, to provide a similar experience, perhaps not as tightly packaged though. I'm not sure the difference is that remarkable either, unless perhaps you have some specific needs that you know are well-managed by *BSD-centered software.
Others point out Homebrew, but I still prefer MacPorts for command line tools. It feels more “BSD” to me, while Homebrew reminds me of some tools a Node developer would write (cheeky terminology, overuse of emoji, cleverness over correctness, etc.).
At home I just use macOS and FreeBSD and many of my personal projects typically build on both. The base userland tools are mostly the same, but the non-POSIX stuff diverges heavily (file system control, process isolation, configuration, etc.)
Also, the MacOS window manager is objectively terrible. "Move window to right of screen" involves a keypress, trackpad hover, and menu selection. "Maximize window" doesn't exist. "Minimize window" makes the window inaccessible with command-tab and option-tab. Neither of those keyboard shortcuts function properly if there is more than one monitor plugged in.
Fractional scaling breakages still exist.
The font renderer is de-featured (vs the open source ones) because it is working around some expired patents involving true type hints.
It can no longer open postscript files.
I could go on for a long time.
MacOS makes a passible dumb terminal for accessing remote development environments though. It also integrates in well with iOS, etc.
In my opinion, macOS is the supreme UNIX™ workstation still, although there are things you need to work around or disable like SIP in rare cases. It definitely has BSD heritage, and Homebrew is pretty mature at this point, which wasn't always the case.
For servers though I tend to just stick to Linux these days, mostly out of practicality. I miss the days of easily recompiling the BSD kernel by just editing a single file.
There are quirks from time to time, their disk system has been nightmarish for a while, but they've recently had a major overhaul there and we didn't really have any major complaints since. It is very decent for the price, I would say.
I am considering moving our DO to ovh mainly because DO lacks fine grained IAM
A bit out of the blue, I'll say that I'm also a happy customer of MXroute , which are also in Texas. I like these folk's no-nonsense approach. I can only think of SpongeBob's friend Sandy, and the experience have reinforced this stereotype :) No affiliation, I'm sorry for this regional digression, have never been to Texas unfortunately, but good job, guys!
I'm patiently waiting for Percona to add Debian `bookworm` packages for their database servers on arm64/aarch64 and then I can migrate from amd64 on other cloud providers.
But what about some bigger targets - e.g. running OpenBSD ARM64 on a stock bare-metal server provided by some dedicated hosting company, not necessarily Hetzner?
And I don’t mean huge ranges either.
Like /24 (256 IPs) or less
More generally speaking, ist there any difference (except maybe performance) when running Debian on Intel vs AMD vs ARM?