Z-Library Helps Students to Overcome Academic Poverty, Study Finds
419 points
7 months ago
| 22 comments
| torrentfreak.com
| HN
sureglymop
7 months ago
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I will say that in my college classes, the first thing I always do is to download the PDFs of the recommended books to accompany the classes.

Every once in a while one of these books ends up being awesome and truly useful for the class, and then I order it physically because I actually want it in my bookshelf (admittedly I'm not battling poverty).

Such shadow libraries have driven me to buy the books I liked, while rarely opening and reading the ones I didn't need, and also not buying them. It's just like having a "demo" version of a book but without the anxiety of running out of pages.

I think it's already hard enough to engage young people in reading and being into books but without websites like this I think it would be nearly impossible.

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freefaler
7 months ago
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There also good resources like: annas-archive, libgen, and the good old sci-hub.

For paper management Zotero + https://github.com/ethanwillis/zotero-scihub plugin makes browsing google scholar very efficient.

Also Calibre fulltext search with OCR-ed PDFs:

https://github.com/ocrmypdf/OCRmyPDF

makes learning a concept/finding test exercises even easier.

Soon a local LLM to "RAG retrieval on my library" might be the next step.

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throwaway983561
7 months ago
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That's exactly my use case. Every single time I read (not totally as reading from a regular screen is not for me) a book from a PDF and I like it I definitely purchase a physical copy. I do the same if I hear an album that I like. Imagine like spending 150U$S on a book and it turns out that the approach is not for you. Every book is different and so are readers. What might be a good read for me might not necessary apply to other readers. Z-Lib and Libgenesis are a bliss and hope they are never taken down.
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OsrsNeedsf2P
7 months ago
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At my first company out of University, we found our app was being distributed on "piracy" versions of the Play Store, with all the IAPs bypassed and given for free. We spent months cracking down on it, and the end result was bugs in our detection system negatively affected our users, and I believe we also introduced a crash which hurt our Play Store ranking.

I still remember having a meeting about it with the CEO, as we all collectively realized that blocking the free version of our app made no positive impact whatsoever.

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anonym29
7 months ago
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The idea in industry that pirated copies represent "lost sales" is wishful thinking. The reality is, people who can afford to pay for media/apps/programs/books can and do; the people who pirate such digital goods overwhelmingly either cannot afford to purchase a legitimate copy, or simply wouldn't be interested in paying for it without knowing whether they'd like what they were getting, were a pirated copy not be available.

Additionally, not all pirates are the selfish monsters that MPAA, RIAA, and friends would have you believe: many pirates, including several I know personally, use pirated media as a preview, and go on to pay for the content they actually enjoyed, yet wouldn't have done so without the option to pirate to know whether or not the media is worth the asking price to begin with.

An MBA could be coaxed into admitting that in those cases, piracy actually creates sales that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

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coldtea
7 months ago
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>The idea in industry that pirated copies represent "lost sales" is wishful thinking.

The idea that _all_ pirated copies represent "lost sales" is wishful thinking.

But the idea that without piracy sales would be greater, sometimes substantially, because some pirated copies do represent "lost sales" is much more realistic though.

The idea that piracy helps audiences find and then buy the stuff they like, is also, for the most part, wishful thinking. Even for stuff one likes, once they have it in pirated form, they have little to no incentive to buy it (except a small niche wanting to "own the physical product" like a collector, which can sometimes be the case for music and games, but not software in general).

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fsflover
7 months ago
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EU paid for report that concluded piracy isn’t harmful, tried to hide findings (thenextweb.com)

280 points by tchalla on Sept 21, 2017 | 59 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15305476

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Beretta_Vexee
7 months ago
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A few months ago there was a rather funny article in a French film magazine (cahier du cinéma). The director of a film school was complaining that his students obviously didn't know how to pirate films any more, so they couldn't get hold of classic films. So he found himself with a population of film students who had practically only seen blockbusters from the last ten years. They had tried to set up a media library with DVDs and Blu-ray discs, but with the disappearance of physical media and disc players, it was no longer working.

The director was quite bitter. The fight against piracy has therefore rendered auteur movies invisible and has only benefited Hollywood.

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portaouflop
7 months ago
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>The fight against piracy has[…] only benefited Hollywood.

Has anyone believed otherwise?

But I agree it’s tragic. One of the film sharing boards I was a part of for 20+ years just vanished overnight. The amount of niche stuff that was available there was/is unmatched (for the topic this board was about).

The crackdown seems almost finished now- I reckon in 5-10 years piracy will be a thing of the past- and reborn in other forms after.

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BriggyDwiggs42
7 months ago
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How’s it dead? I’ve just been using torrent sites like usual with no issues for years.
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amarcheschi
7 months ago
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In some cases it is actually beneficial (videogames) (I'm not gonna read the study, just trusting what I read online)

Study link https://felixreda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/displacement...

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Cumpiler69
7 months ago
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>EU paid for report that concluded piracy isn’t harmful, tried to hide findings

Intentionally hiding stuff the taxpayers paid for should be illegal and sanctioned with jail time. I'm tired by the lack of accountability our elected leaders have.

"Oh shucks, seems like I accidentally and irrecoverably deleted all these emails between me and a CEO about a multi billion taxpayer funded contract; I'm such a klutz, hihi."

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thanksgiving
7 months ago
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> The idea that piracy helps audiences find and then buy the stuff they like, is also, for the most part, wishful thinking.

You are thinking logically. Humans are NOT logical.

In some other countries, Politicians hold huge banquets right before election day. Lots of people eat at these banquets. They could go vote for someone else after eating the free food because it is a secret ballot. However, overwhelmingly those who got to eat the free food will vote for the people who reliably show up to feed them every election. Why? Because humans are not logical.

Same applies here. You'd think people have already gotten free books or music or whatever. But if they like something, they want to be a part of it. Even if they don't personally pay for it, If they really like it, they will share it with others. Who in turn will likely pay for it.

Also I remember something profound I read when I was younger. The opposite of love isn't hate, it is apathy. The fear for anything that is worthy of copyright isn't piracy, it is being irrelevant and forgotten, out of the zeitgeist. If piracy can keep something relevant, it is worth the cost.

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shenberg
7 months ago
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Anecdotally, a pro-audio software company I worked with had to fire 1/3 of the company when their copy-protection was cracked and sales tanked immediately afterwards, and recovered once a new copy-protection scheme was developed and applied. And just to be clear, software licenses in direct-to-user sales are not that company's only revenue stream (they sell hardware and software to OEMs).

This is to say, the evidence in this natural experiment points towards piracy reducing sales by a lot.

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tourmalinetaco
7 months ago
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If it was professional audio, then your main concern would be acquiring business sales, right? If certain companies stopped paying after a new crack comes out then that sounds like a rather blatant example of piracy that could have been pursued legally.
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coldtea
7 months ago
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I think the EU study is bogus too. Largely based on questionaires on self-reporting.
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underlipton
7 months ago
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Well, "had to."
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graemep
7 months ago
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> The idea that _all_ pirated copies represent "lost sales" is wishful thinking.

I think it is more often something people have to pretend to believe in order to maximise damages in breach of copyright cases.

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elevaet
7 months ago
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For better or for worse, some people who can afford otherwise do piracy, out of protest. For example several people I know personally buy music exclusively on bandcamp. If it's not on there, they pirate it. No streaming, no iTunes etc.
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0dayz
7 months ago
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There's a big difference between piracy as in free version vs parasitic piracy which is when you got someone selling the version that is pirated.
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JacketPotato
7 months ago
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There are a few games that I have initially pirated, loved them, and then bought them off of steam!
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doctorpangloss
7 months ago
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Should Apple be the only ones allowed to make money? You can't pirate Apple News, iCloud Storage, all sorts of services and conventional media they provide. You can't pirate App Store IAP. You don't have to make a single value judgement to see that the status quo - the only permissible action to take against piracy is to make unassailable DRM - is really just conceding that the fully vertically integrated platforms ought to own anything. Surely it's not good that only Apple is allowed to make money.
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BrenBarn
7 months ago
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That's certainly the status quo. One remedy that comes immediately to mind is to simply ban vertically integrated platforms like that and forcibly break them up.
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Cumpiler69
7 months ago
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People here don't like to hear this, but that's the only realistic solution to the current big tech monopolies sucking all the air in the room and spawn-camping small players before they take off.
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notpushkin
7 months ago
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Those are services that depend on Apple servers. If you also make a service, others can’t pirate it (they’ll have to set up their own server, which means it’s not really your service now).

Of course, this only works if you secure your server side properly. I remember using cracked versions of Wolfram Alpha for Android back in high school and those worked like a charm. I don’t think they lose a lot of revenue though.

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vinay_ys
7 months ago
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It takes a lot of effort to build a system that is both user-friendly and does implement sophisticated mechanisms to prevent bypassing permissions controls. Apple has taken the pains to do that well and then to maintain it against an unending barrage of attacks. So they deserve to make money.
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nug
7 months ago
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You can definitely pirate IAP. Back in the day it was as easy as using a proxy. Nowadays you need to inject 3rd party software into the app.
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JSR_FDED
7 months ago
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Wait, what? Apple is bad because they don’t provide a way for you to pirate content they sell?
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qwertox
7 months ago
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In the 90s I downloaded tons of Warez. In the 00s I spent thousands of € in software which I properly evaluated and learned to use in the 90s.
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bastard_op
7 months ago
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Some 28 years ago I taught myself everything could get/find from graphic design, basic development, server administration, etc, all downloading commercial warez over dial-up with AOL and Usenet. I didn't need a class or subscriptions, with every software and book I could have wanted, I had the best lab in the world with any software available I could want with piracy.

Fast forward 30 years now it's mostly the same as it was, only open source replaced all the commercial, and little has changed that I can still get the rest too. You can pay as much or little as you want in life if you know how.

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siamese_puff
7 months ago
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100% agree with this. Every kid in the 2000s pirated Adobe software. It was almost a badge of honor to have every Adobe icon on your desktop.

These kids learned the Adobe suite and probably became professionals as a result, then purchasing the software legally for their entire company. Piracy isn’t bad, in fact, it probably makes these companies money in many cases.

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instagraham
7 months ago
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If one didn't have access to Adobe in those days and had to instead make do with Paint.net or GIMP, a lot of people wouldn't have made it into media and publishing today (where they now, as you pointed out, bill their companies $1000s to use Adobe's products).

Hate to say it but the difference in output quality between GIMP and Photoshop really shows and can make the difference between your work looking amateur or professional - ie getting your first job.

I know I know, it's about the operator not the tool, but not everyone has the mindset to grind through GIMP's UI and stackexchange troubleshooting forums when there are tutorials for everything Adobe on YouTube. Some of these people can still be great designers.

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ivell
7 months ago
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Or it would have forced the open source tooling to get improved. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention. A lot of features in the open source tooling is due to an itch that needed to be scratched. I think without piracy, the open-source software would have had even better feature set.
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petra
7 months ago
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A lot of great software today is SAAS. They seem to have solved the problem.
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freefaler
7 months ago
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That's one of the reasons, to curb piracy. However the bigger is that they need a recurring revenue, because programmers need to be fed while they're working on a release and bringing a new one from the wild is expensive and takes time to get meaningful code from them.
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photochemsyn
7 months ago
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Academic textbooks are mostly a racket, forced upon a captive market (the student body) and - with rare but notable exceptions - not books that most students would care to hold onto after graduation.

Historically, your lazier instructor took problem sets out of these books which put extra pressure on students to buy them. There's also the accelerated edition turnover in the publishing industry, so that teachers always get the latest edition, which has slightly different problem sets than the one from two years ago, even if the material is the same as it was two decades ago. It's hard to feel much pity for any lost sales suffered by those outfits due to online distribution of current texts.

Today, any instructor with access to an LLM can come up with unique problem sets and solutions with relatively little effort for a whole semester's coursework, and just do that every time they teach the course. Yes students will just use LLMs to help them solve the LLM-generated questions - so more in-class quiz sessions are likely to become the norm.

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DiscourseFan
7 months ago
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Ok, a publisher stakes their reputation on having reliable problem sets. If you used an LLM, you'd have to proof every single problem to make sure there weren't issues with it that would lead to student's having unintended difficulties with them. Yes it "saves time," until a problem is assigned whose "right answer" takes not only far longer than all the others but is ridiculously complex and impossible to grade or complete in any reasonable amount of time.

Switching the problem sets every couple years is a difficult task in and of itself, and it also keeps answers from circulating amongst students, and saves time for the professor who won't have to do the above every single week, they can just pick however many problems they like out of the book for the relevant section.

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PittleyDunkin
7 months ago
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> Ok, a publisher stakes their reputation on having reliable problem sets.

Who gives a damn about publishers?

They introduce artificial distribution costs; They are not capable of or refuse to fact-check; the copy-editing they provide is well within the capabilities of ai; at best they introduce asset-providers (eg illustrators) to writers.

> Switching the problem sets every couple years is a difficult task in and of itself

Who cares? The western academic system is already laughably bad at weeding out the incapable. Just let people cheat. It's not like people aren't cheating already.

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dgfitz
7 months ago
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When I went to college, two of the calc professors were married. They co-authored the calc book… for calc 1, 2, and 3. Did not matter which class you were taking, (1,2, or 3) one was required to buy the whole book.

They changed the problem sets once a year. So at minimum you were basically obligated to buy the book twice, if not 3 times.

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freefaler
7 months ago
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So why isn't this more popular: 10 friends buy the book and split the cost. Scan it and put it on their ipads. Go to class using the ipad version. (ipad is fast, even high-dpi scans work very well) ?
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kmeisthax
7 months ago
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You've heard of kids using ChatGPT to do their homework, now it's time for adults using ChatGPT to assign kids homework
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humanlity
7 months ago
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Never forget Aaron Swartz
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freefaler
7 months ago
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He was a great person & a real hero!

His series "Raw Nerve" is very good:

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/rawnerve

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nathancahill
7 months ago
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We need the equivalent of Z-Library or Sci-Hub for standards documents. It's a shakedown to pay $300 for a PDF of a public standard.
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Balgair
7 months ago
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A tip for anyone trying to access such documents: Email the authors, if you can find them. 99/100 times, they will just send it to you for free. Now, finding the authors isn't easy for standards docs, but it can be done
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mkolodny
7 months ago
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On VirusTotal, 5 different vendors flag Z-Library as malicious. Are they just flagging the site because of IP issues, or is the site full of malware?
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ajvs
7 months ago
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If you're going to the official domains linked from their Wikipedia article then there's definitely no malware.
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mkolodny
7 months ago
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One vendor on VirusTotal flagged the domain currently linked from their Wikipedia article as malicious.
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wortelefant
7 months ago
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Annas Archive is even more popular these days, these shadow libraries often present a better user experience than many online bookstores as well.
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elashri
7 months ago
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> Z-Library, or a similar website, is helpful to students living in poverty (82% agree).

I would really like to hear the reason for the 18% who thinks that it is not helpful for poor students. Is it this complicated argument that they will discourage authors from writing books and then this will hurt all students in a hypothetical scenario? Or there are other reasons?

I mean I understand that some people will just want these sites gone on IP grounds or because it is against the law ..etc. But this question was different.

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crazygringo
7 months ago
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I would assume that a good chunk of students in poverty simply don't have a device that works well for consuming books on.

If you don't have a tablet or laptop, just a phone with a small screen, I can see people saying z-lib isn't helpful for them. That they'll just use physical books at their library. (And students without computers is definitely still a thing, that's why computer labs still exist.)

I can definitely imagine a lot of undergrads who would assume that if a book isn't available in their college library then they'd never need it anyways. (Rightly or wrongly.)

And remember that so many textbooks now contain a mandatory online component where assignments get submitted and tests are taken, so you're forced to buy it even if z-lib has it. (I'm not defending that... just explaining it.)

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thfuran
7 months ago
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>And remember that so many textbooks now contain a mandatory online component where assignments get submitted and tests are taken, so you're forced to buy it even if z-lib has it. (I'm not defending that... just explaining it.)

It's a disgrace that universities are willing to use books that have been turned into consumable goods by single-use software or usurious saas rental messes.

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Xxfireman
7 months ago
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Yes, this is how textbook manufactures sell to university. One time codes for online exercises / labs. This happens mostly for intro classes. I have no idea why universities do this, my guess is they are sold on hw problems being randomized so it makes cheating more difficult.
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eesmith
7 months ago
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What I don't get is that 20 or so years ago there were professors writing online books meant as no-cost alternatives to the corporate publishing companies which controlled much of the academic market.

Why did all of those projects fail?

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jfvinueza
7 months ago
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If you don't have a laptop, the place you live in / study at probably doesn't have a good public library.
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crazygringo
7 months ago
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Not a public library -- their institution's library. The context here is higher ed students in poverty situations, and I've never heard of a college or university (that isn't online-only, at least) that didn't have a library.
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rany_
7 months ago
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> Is it this complicated argument that they will discourage authors from writing books and then this will hurt all students in a hypothetical scenario? Or there are other reasons?

That really can't be it because the question isn't about whether it is moral, legal or good for publishers.

I really think this is just elitism and gatekeeping at its worst.

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shlomo_z
7 months ago
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That's why this _can_ be it. If authors stop writing books it will hurt students (who wont have books to read). Nothing to do with ethics or morals.
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foundry27
7 months ago
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I’d guess the easiest explanation (which admittedly erases all nuance) is that folks just misinterpreted the question and reflexively dismissed it as soon as they saw “Z-Library” and “Helpful”.

I’d also be inclined to discard theoretical “in the long run it’ll be unhelpful” concerns, since that opens up an infinitely-deep can of hypothetical contrived scenarios of arbitrary complexity that can’t be disproven. I’m sure there are very real concerns, but it’s impossible to reason about which concerns specifically people would care about.

IMO that leaves the purely practical concerns:

- Students in poverty might not have reliable internet, devices or digital literacy. If zlib isn’t available to them, it isn’t helpful

- Books available might not cater to the local language/culture, or the real world curriculum needs of those students. If zlib doesn’t help them succeed, it isn’t helpful

- The interface sucks and is confusing, which makes students struggle to find what‘s useful. If zlib isn’t useable for them, it isn’t helpful

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melagonster
7 months ago
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Maybe they do not need more textbooks? If they do not need to follow newest version of it, they can get second hand book.
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al_borland
7 months ago
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Maybe I was a bad student, but I stopped buying books after my freshman year, unless there was a very specific reason to have it. I really didn’t use most of them.

I still remember one professor my senior year saying we needed the book to do problems he would assign, and we wouldn’t pass without it. I opened the book one time for a problem that we worked on in class. It could have easily been projected up on the board or printed as a hand out. It’s been 20 years and I’m still a little bitter. I felt lied to and cheated; most of us did.

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DiscourseFan
7 months ago
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It depends on your major. For those who study English, for instance, many of the assigned books are out of copywrite already. And new books are market price so they won't be more than 20 dollars. And if you're in a not so conservative English department a lot of the "theory" texts, aside from the more obscure ones, are freely available online because they're written by people who care more about intellectual freedom than making a buck or two.
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bluedays
7 months ago
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I could play devils advocate and say that it’s bad for poor students because if authors are not fairly compensated then these authors won’t write textbooks and if they don’t then future students won’t benefit from having the textbooks.
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tomrod
7 months ago
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Few academic authors are in it for the money.
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DiscourseFan
7 months ago
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I mean yeah, getting your work published just means that you can sue if someone steals it (often the case with those university presidents that they plagiarized work from undergrads or those who otherwise couldn't fight back). But if publishers stop making money off academic texts, then they won't be inclined to fight those battles. Then again, a lot of the money comes from university library subscriptions to entire catalogues of texts including books and articles, so either something you want to access is already in your ecosystem or it isn't.
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8note
7 months ago
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When my courses had profs who had written the book, they'd have the school book store print and bind them to booklets, and sell them for close enough to cost, and also put up a download link for the pdf
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crvdgc
7 months ago
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An interpretation given the benefit of the doubt is, using Z-library might get the said student in trouble and therefore is not helpful overall.
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vundercind
7 months ago
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What’s the lizardman constant? 4% or so? There’s some of it.
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theendisney
7 months ago
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"Educated slaves are unhappy"
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cynicalsecurity
7 months ago
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Educated slaves also refuse to work for peanuts.
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beej71
7 months ago
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Here's a weird story. I found a PDF of an algorithms book I liked on Anna's. Not a scan, but an original PDF.

It's a good book, so I decided I should buy it. But I don't keep a physical shelf anymore. The thing is, the publisher doesn't sell the PDF!

Which makes me wonder where the pirated PDF came from. Insider leak?

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jomoho
7 months ago
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I think it's just replacing what a a good Library or Bookstore would have given you in previous times: cross reading many different books, without having to commit and pay upfront. The assumption that I'm going to pay for a book upfront without being able to leaf through it from front to back is preposterous.
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petterroea
7 months ago
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> The findings, however, suggest that students are more likely to draw comparisons with “Robin Hood”.

This is interesting to me as it seems to suggest something I'm slowly coming to realize: In a world where many are simply pulled along for the ride, piracy is for an honest consumer one of the most powerful ways of protesting in the realm of digital media: You can have your cake and eat it too - abstaining from funding things you disagree with while still being able to get hold of material needed for your education or media that might even be required to stay relevant in your social circles.

In short, for some ideologies it is a very powerful and disruptive tool. It does however assume pirates are mostly people with good intentions. I would love to know more about the distributions of why people actually pirate.

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joshdavham
7 months ago
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I'll still never forget the day I learned about the existence of Z-library.

I was doing a summer research term with one of my professors and he recommended a textbook so I pulled it up on Amazon only for him to shake his head and show me Z-library.

I just remember thinking "wait why didn't you tell our class about this site earlier?!"

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medo-bear
7 months ago
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libgen is the modern library of alexandria. and it is free as in beer. thank you russians
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anonym29
7 months ago
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Especially in the age of DRM (enshittification of ownership), where many games that lose functionality when the developer shuts down servers, where ebooks routinely get redacted, rewritten, or censored, where the availability of movies you "bought" shifts year by year as licensing changes occur, it is evident that "buying" no longer means "owning", and if buying isn't owning, then piracy isn't stealing.
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thevillagechief
7 months ago
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If you grew up in a 3rd world country, you know you could never afford access to any of the academic/training resources needed to get out of the cycle of poverty. So you did what you had to do. Now I'm addicted to buying books, some of which I'll never read past 2 chapters, probably because of the trauma.
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cynicalsecurity
7 months ago
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I'm surprised they were on the regular internet and not on Tor. Like, what else did they expect.
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mgraybosch
7 months ago
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I don't blame them. If buying isn't owning, then downloading isn't stealing.
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richrichie
7 months ago
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> “Living in a 3rd world country, 1 book would cost like 50%- 80% already of my daily wage,” one Redditor wrote.

Typical technical books are priced at upwards of $50. $100 a day is not poor by any means in 3rd world countries.

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tecleandor
7 months ago
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It's probably monthly. Lots of medical, engineering or physics books cost upwards of $100 or even $200
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tap-snap-or-nap
7 months ago
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Aaron Swartz was right
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theendisney
7 months ago
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I dont have to like it but if we are doing competitive capitalism we should upgrade the citizens as much as possible. In stead of publicly funded limitations we should spend the money on the opposite. If we want to win the game that is.
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dzonga
7 months ago
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knowledge should be free - for the benefit of mankind.
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freefaler
7 months ago
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if it takes a person to create a knowledge and the person need food/shelter/computer to produce the knowledge and can't sell it, how will he survive by giving the knowledge for free?
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dzonga
7 months ago
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say an academic publishes a paper - put the paper out for free.

get paid for speaking engagements / guest lecturers and consultation with industry.

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