Jury Nullification
96 points
20 days ago
| 9 comments
| en.wikipedia.org
| HN
amarcheschi
20 days ago
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The page is about the law itself and how it was developed, its history (...)

To read how it is applied today in the us, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification_in_the_Un...

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bsnnkv
20 days ago
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Reading between the lines a little here with this submission, I'm assuming it's related to the case of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.
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mcv
20 days ago
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Clearly. I've heard people claim that no jury would convict him, because everybody knows someone who was screwed by their insurance provider. A sad indictment of the scammy nature of the US health insurance industry.
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credit_guy
20 days ago
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I wonder what a good strategy would be for a prosecutor in such a case. Can they split the trial into several? Let's say one for using a silencer on a gun in New York City. This is a felony. The murder is clearly another one. Maybe the first should be tried in a state court, while the second in federal (the perpetrator traveled across state lines to carry the hit, on a victim who was also coming from a different state, so this might be a federal case?).
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amarcheschi
20 days ago
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Yes, but the existence of the Wikipedia page and the act of doing it itself in a jury were a pre existing condition

On a serious note, yes it is. However, it is very interesting as a European learning about a mechanism that allows the jury to say we believe someone has done that, but we don't believe it should be guilty

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ThrowawayTestr
20 days ago
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Does Europe not have jury trials?
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mcv
20 days ago
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Europe isn't a single place. Some countries do, some don't. I don't think I've ever heard of a jury trial in Netherland, but France, Belgium and the UK apparently still have it.
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extraduder_ire
20 days ago
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Some countries in Europe also don't have the same concept of double jeopardy that the US has and allow retrials even if someone is found not guilty. Off the top of my head, in England you can be retried for murder if new evidence is presented as many as ten times.
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tdeck
20 days ago
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Scotland even has the famous "third verdict" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven
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aitchnyu
19 days ago
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Is this remarkable? I see "acquitted by lack of evidence" in India and think its the same.
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ender341341
19 days ago
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In the US "acquitted by lack of evidence" is not a legally distinct verdict, just guilty or not guilty, even if the jury provides justification.
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adastra22
20 days ago
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It's more of a common law thing (but not exclusively).
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johng
20 days ago
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The first case that came to my mind was Daniel Penny.
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cafard
19 days ago
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Not Byron De La Beckwith, or the guys who killed Emmett Till?
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giraffe_lady
19 days ago
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Those are definitely Penny's forerunners and peers.
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mjw1007
20 days ago
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One of the first prosecutions under the UK computer misuse act (R v Bedworth in 1991), ended up as effectively a jury nullification.

IIRC the judge explicitly told the jury that the offered defence wasn't valid as a matter of law, but they acquitted him anyway.

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n4r9
20 days ago
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I recall this [edit: potentially] happening a few years back when a jury in Bristol - a notoriously progressive city - gave a not guilty verdict to four people that had helped topple a statue of a long dead slave trader: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colston_Four_trial

The right wing of the country was obviously in uproar and demanding changes to the system or that some exception be made. Except, interestingly, for the poshest and possibly most right wing MP of all, Jacob Rees-Mogg. Iirc he said that even though he disagreed with the verdict, jury nullification is there for a good reason and the jury was perfectly within protocol to do what they did. He's a nasty piece of work but every now and then comes across as surprisingly principled.

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more_corn
19 days ago
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My favorite jury nullification story is of a murder case in Appalachia. Dude and his wife were walking out of a gas station. Other guy makes sexual and offensive statement about dude’s wife. Fight ensues. Dude ends up killing the guy who made the offensive comment. Jury acquitted him “it don’t seem like you’d be any kinda man if you let somethin like that pass.”

We have jury trials for a reason. Sometimes the law as written needs to be interpreted by the people it serves.

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garciasn
20 days ago
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On the two juries on which I’ve served, jury nullification was indirectly addressed by the judges who, in not so many words, claimed it was not legal for us to apply it.

Disingenuous and awful; there’s no wonder it exists when the judiciary thinks it can will it out of existence.

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kstrauser
20 days ago
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The whole notion that a court could require you to find a certain way is absurd. As a juror, your judgement outranks everyone else’s in the room.

I’m not some sovcit nutjob either, but someone who took standard US public school and university civics classes and paid close attention because it fascinated me.

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SpicyLemonZest
20 days ago
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Are you sure that's what the judges said? Judges do sometimes give instructions that are directly about jury nullification, but a lot of things that indirectly sound like they could be about nullification really aren't.

Remember that jury nullification, if you support it, is a very narrow exception to the general principle that juries are deciding facts rather than law. It would be an obvious miscarriage of justice if a juror tried to "nullify" the reasonable doubt standard because they think the defendant is guilty, or "nullify" some valid defense to the crime because they don't think the legislature should have included it.

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adastra22
20 days ago
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As happened in Scott Peterson, for example.
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Nasrudith
20 days ago
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I thought it was specifically some very lawyerly shenanigans that you couldn't legally talk about it while a juror in the course of your duties (without it being grounds for your dismissal from the jury) but they specifically couldn't stop you from engaging in it. Making the whole thing into an induction puzzle of sorts to leave the nullifier to persuade the others into a 'not guilty' without explicitly invoking the idea of jury nullification.
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petercooper
19 days ago
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In the UK, there's a plaque at the Old Bailey court that specifically commemorates the right of juries to acquit a defendant according to the conscience of the jurors. Judges, oddly, aren't big fans of it.
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dcrazy
20 days ago
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It’s not legal. It’s an intentional perversion of the course of justice by the jury. But it’s something that cannot be prosecuted without impugning the independence of the jury.
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kstrauser
20 days ago
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It’s the entire reason for having a jury of your peers in the first place. We got tired of our countrymen being convicted of breaking another nation’s dumb laws, so we put a mechanism in place assuring that some has to be guilty in the eyes of their neighbors, not some distant government. Jury nullification is just about the most American thing I can imagine. Saying “I don’t care if he did it, it’s a dumb law and I’m not convicting him for it” is our birthright.
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amenhotep
19 days ago
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This post seems to evince a belief that America invented juries? You didn't.
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kstrauser
19 days ago
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I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. I never claimed, or thought, that America invented juries. Neither did we invent congresses or constitutions, but we also enacted them because we recognized them as good and useful ideas.
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amenhotep
19 days ago
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In fact, you're not very good at them! Voir dire is a ridiculous process that doesn't exist in England and Wales.
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bdangubic
20 days ago
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amen
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harimau777
20 days ago
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One man's perversion is another man's justice.

If the law itself is unjust then the only just course a jury can take is to find the defendant not guilty.

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dillydogg
19 days ago
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A quick way to be skipped over for jury duty is to bring up jury nullification during jury selection. Which I think is horrible, obviously. I was very excited to exercise my right to say presumptively possessing weed isn't worth jail time.
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amarcheschi
19 days ago
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Oh god, really? It's so stupid. I would not bring it up and then act my own way anyway
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banku_brougham
20 days ago
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Can someone explain the legal concept in plain terms? I had thought a jury cannot be compelled to decide one or other way, and that jurors can vote as the will.
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fasa99
19 days ago
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The general intent of the jury is to ask, "do you think they broke the law or not" and it's a jury of your peers, from your community, so it's seen as super fair.

On one extreme the jury carefully reviews the law as written and makes a judgement focused on the law. Whether they agree or disagree with the law itself is inconsequential, they must apply it.

On the other extreme (jury nullification) the jury might ignore the law and decide for themselves, then and there, what is right and what is wrong.

In many jurisdictions the jury is encouraged to adhere to the law as written, in some it is "illegal" for the jury to willfully ignore the law but there is no punishment for doing so. The concept of "Jury Nullification" is meant to be a checks & balances if some law exists that is insane or unreasonable or would be morally bankrupt to apply in a particular situation, extreme cases. So the pressure to not apply jury nullification in general is because if it were used in every case, not extreme cases, literally the jury then becomes the congress, the makers of law, and of course everything becomes kind of random and unfair depending on whatever jury you got.

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salawat
19 days ago
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You're being a bit disingenuous here. The legal system fears jury nullification because of precedent, and the complete clusterfuck a nullification makes of interpreting common law. Judges and lawyers basically have to ignore everything about that case. The case law, which is considered "discovered", has to be thrown out, because it'll make no sense otherwise. Stare decisis just doesn't make any sense in a nullification situation. This still doesn't mean nullification doesn't have a place. It is a check of the populace on a prosecutor/law enforcement with an agenda, a corrupt judge, or insane legislators/unconscionable laws. Nullification is the most important, and powerful democratic check on the judiciary available.

It's also a really bad idea to bank on getting. As voir dire (jury selection) is basically the prosecution devoting all their resources to make sure that they don't get a jury stacked with enough jurors willing to nullify. A judge might also declare a mistrial if they get a sense a nullification attempt is in the works or likely. A prosecutor may decline to prosecute, or petition for a change of venue if they get a sense the populace would just nullify anyway. Judges will tend to be very cross and threatening at the prospect, and will lecture at length about how bad it would be if you chose that path, etc.... etc.... It is very much the judicial equivalent of a vote of no confidence in the system, and the system hates being confronted with it.

Long story short, it's a populace's nuclear option with all the baggage that entails. It being employed is a signal that so much is wrong, the populace cannot conscionably allow the system to proceed as normal. It's a wake-up call to all three branches. Legislators that the law they passed may be unconscionable, the executive in that the People cannot endorse their execution of the laws as passed, and the judiciary, in that in no way shape or form can this randomly selected jury abide the status quo.

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bdangubic
20 days ago
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Jury is always advised by the Judge to follow the law(s) which will be explained to them. However, they do have power to decide that law(s) either do not apply or are not just. Though they will also be advised that going “your own way” so-to-speak makes a compelling case in appeals court…
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derekp7
20 days ago
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Specifically, the jury has the sole power to return a "guilty" verdict. If they return "not guilty", then the defendant is not guilty. There isn't any justification needed for why they returned that verdict -- just one word "guilty" or two words "not guilty".
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hennell
19 days ago
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Juries are meant to decide based on the case before them in accordance with the laws as written.

But jury discussions and motivations are sacrosanct, and you can't be punished for the "wrong" verdict. So technically you can ignore the law and vote how you like, allowing juries to effectively "nullify" a law by refusing to convict on it.

But allowing a jury to ignore the law as written means they can convict or not based solely on political leaning, ethnicity, sexuality or religion etc.

It's often cited as a way for society to oppose laws they disagree with, but is very much frowned upon by the legal system as it is easily exploited for very nefarious purposes and leads to a very unbalanced system rather than a consistent rule of law.

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adastra22
20 days ago
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You understand correctly.
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matthewmorgan
19 days ago
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In the UK the powers that be are desperate to get rid of juries. We shouldn't let them
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