Woman's DNA discovered in 20k year old deer-tooth pendant (2023)
174 points
1 year ago
| 9 comments
| cbc.ca
| HN
neRok
1 year ago
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The article (which is from 2023 by the way) doesn't discuss the findings of the DNA analysis, so I went and looked up the original - https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-023-06035-2

> with estimates of present-day human and faunal contamination both below 1%. Comparisons with present-day human populations²⁶ using ƒ3-statistics and D-statistics²⁷,²⁸ show high affinities to Native Americans (Extended Data Fig. 5). When projected into a principal component analysis with other ancient human individuals (Fig. 3c), DCP1 falls within a group of Ancient North Eurasian individuals from further east in Siberia, which includes the approximately 24 ka Mal’ta 1 and the approximately 17 ka Afontova Gora 3 individuals²⁹,³⁰. Both of these individuals are genetically closer to DCP1 than non-Ancient North Eurasian individuals when tested with D-statistics (Extended Data Fig. 6b), and all three show similar affinities to ancient Siberians and Native Americans with ƒ3-statistics and D-statistics

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userbinator
1 year ago
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3 billion bases long[...]we were able to recover roughly 70 per cent

It's impressive how resilient DNA is as a data storage medium. That's the equivalent of ~500MB of raw data they've recovered, if my calculations are correct.

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gww
1 year ago
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They didn't sequence the whole human genome (~3 billion bases) for multiple reasons. I am not an expert on ancient DNA but I will try to explain the paper as best I can:

1. Contamination with other flora and fauna DNA 2. Relative low proportions of human DNA 3. The DNA is usually highly degraded, which limits the analyses to short read sequencing (in this case they used 76 bp reads). The halflife of human DNA is ~521 years.

To mitigate these problems they used multiple targeted approaches including one to isolate mitochondrial DNA, where they managed to sequence the whole ~16kb human mtDNA, where each base was covered by 62 sequencing reads on average (62x coverage).

They used another to isolate specific regions containing single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), which are DNA mismatches known to be related to ancient human DNA and humans. They targeted 470,724 single nucleotide polymorphisms of which 70% (336,429) were recovered.

They did perform shotgun sequencing on all of the DNA isolated, but due to species assignment issues they again focused on fragments that contain diagnostic SNPs in these cases they only recovered a small number of SNPs per sample, again due to the relatively low proportion of human DNA and its degradation (20,526, 3,734, 124,862, 85,901, 34,756, 41,632, 34,677 and 72,992) as per the legend in figure 3.

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dexwiz
1 year ago
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That analysis makes me think of matching more than recovery.
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thangngoc89
1 year ago
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"matching" is exactly how we do DNA sequencing right now. The current technology is called next generation sequencing (NGS), we multiply the DNA and perform matching digitally to construct the full DNA.
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vintermann
1 year ago
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It's quite fascinating. It's like if order to figure out the shape of a teacup, we generate thousands of identical copies, smash them all to rather small bits, and then try to count the different types of shards as a first step to piecing together one full copy. Impressive that it works.
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inetknght
1 year ago
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> It's like if order to figure out the shape of a teacup, we generate thousands of identical copies, smash them all to rather small bits, and then try to count the different types of shards as a first step to piecing together one full copy. Impressive that it works.

Yes, but you've got the order wrong.

The teacup is smashed before all of the identical copies are created.

(I wrote DNA analysis software for 6.5 years)

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dekhn
1 year ago
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It's not fascinating; it's an endless source of trouble. We only do it because we don't have sequencers that produce extremely long (chromosome length) high quality reads, especially in sequences that contain a lot of repetition. This has been a source of errors and ambiguity for as long as we've used shotgun.
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gww
1 year ago
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This is a great analogy. One small change is that there are two ways to reassemble it. One is to try to blindly put the pieces together and fork a teacup (read assembly) vs trying to use a picture of the teacup to figure out where the pieces go (read alignment / mapping)
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sweeter
1 year ago
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Would it be possible to clone an ancient human being from DNA?
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Cthulhu_
1 year ago
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Probably not, not nearly enough material remained to make an accurate clone. The article mentions 70% recovery rate; according to the internet, humans share 98% of DNA with chimpanzees (and 35% with daffodils), so unless you have 100% or 99.9999% of the DNA, the clone will be imperfect at best and a Thing That Should Not Be at worst.
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saagarjha
1 year ago
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I think your ethical board would probably stop you first.
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kevincox
1 year ago
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Keep in mind that this is survivorship bias. The vast majority of DNA from this period has lots. Sure, there is tons that exists but we haven't found but without a doubt almost all of it has been lost.

This is DNA that happened to be the right conditions to survive. It isn't so much that the medium is resilient but that if stored in the correct conditions it can survive.

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Terr_
1 year ago
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It makes me think about how many ancient ruins don't exist simply because the people nearby didn't see reason not to reuse all that convenient unowned pre-quarried rock.

Even today, it's not a very compelling plea: "No, don't tear down the recently-abandoned building, it would look cool several hundred years after you die."

So too on the microscopic label, if there are convenient molecules nobody else is using...

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wlesieutre
1 year ago
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"Spolia" is a fun architectural term for this sort of material reuse, particularly with the more interesting decorative pieces. Many of those stones taken from ancient buildings have become notable newer ancient buildings in their own right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spolia

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teruakohatu
1 year ago
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> It makes me think about how many ancient ruins don't exist simply because the people nearby didn't see reason not to reuse all that convenient unowned pre-quarried rock.

In the case of Ostia near Rome, they mined it for building material until it became a malaria swamp. It wasn't drained until the 20th century. Around 20% of the workers draining the swap contracted malaria.

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Waterluvian
1 year ago
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So this is how I should be storing family photos.
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saagarjha
1 year ago
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In a sense your DNA is your family photo.
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m463
1 year ago
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I was going to say... except without that mole on your arm. But then I thought, it probably has all kinds of battle scars with disease and other adversity coded in it, making a mole inconsequential.
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Cthulhu_
1 year ago
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Thinking on how to save things long term is a fun exercise. If I were super rich and felt that highly of myself, I would totally build a monument to myself built to last the ages; elevated (against flooding), tonnes of erosion resistant rock, a library of all human knowledge in many different formats, sealed off. But with an exact copy near it for tourists.
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AlotOfReading
1 year ago
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You'd find yourself in company with many religious organizations. The Mormon Church has a couple of records vault carved into the granite outside SLC, while the church of Scientology has 3 geographically separated primary vaults dug into the mountains (Petrolia and Creston CA, and a place in the desert outside Albuquerque).
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Waterluvian
1 year ago
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You’ve gotta have a series of timed vaults that give access to precious metals every few generations.
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biophysboy
1 year ago
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It’s even more impressive when you compare it to rna, which “lives” minutes. Take away the pair strand, add a hydroxyl group and a uracil, and it’s a totally different thing.
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bloqs
1 year ago
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Im fascinated, any noob friendly reading material?
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biophysboy
1 year ago
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Honestly, scientific papers. The pain of jargon will be less than the pain of a popsci book. Especially with all the tools to rewrite/summarize/search these days.
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skyyler
1 year ago
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Yes, but which ones? There are so many out there... It seems like you're educated on the subject, so you may be able to recommend good ones.
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biophysboy
1 year ago
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A good start would be the review articles listed here: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=rna+half-life&hl=en&as_.... If there's a paywall, use sci-hub or check the lab's page for a pdf. I should caveat that there is no one rna half life, some live much longer
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skyyler
1 year ago
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It's ok if you don't have recommendations, but sending a google link is a bit out of pocket :(
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biophysboy
1 year ago
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Ha! I'm sorry. not trying to be cagey/dismissive. There's no paper that must be read: they're all nodes in a network. All I can do is point you to a cluster, w/ the right filter and jargon search terms. Apologies if I came off out of pocket.
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kirsebaer
1 year ago
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Check out the review articles in the “Nature Reviews” journals, like “Nature Reviews Genetics”. These articles are written by experts but designed for a non-specialist audience (with undergraduate science education).
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m463
1 year ago
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I think of the error correction codes used by CDs.

But for DNA, the data is needed to literally stay alive as replication occurs constantly through our bodies. And this has been refined over maybe billions of years.

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bloomingkales
1 year ago
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When can I start storing passwords in mine?
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epistasis
1 year ago
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You can order DNA sequences from all sorts of companies. IDT is by far one of the most popular, using classical biochemical means:

https://www.idtdna.com/pages/products/genes-and-gene-fragmen...

https://www.idtdna.com/pages/products/custom-dna-rna/dna-oli...

And a newer player that uses tech from integrated circuit manufacturing (I think?) is Twist Biosciences:

https://www.twistbioscience.com/twist-ordering-platform

Retrieval of information has a bit of latency, however.

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brianmaurer
1 year ago
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Sooner than you'd think! https://wyss.harvard.edu/technology/dna-data-storage/

(though passwords aren't a great application)

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mkoubaa
1 year ago
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Oh great when i get into old age not only will I forget my password but my DNA will have mutated to the point that it technically isn't my password any longer
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brianmaurer
1 year ago
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lol
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almosthere
1 year ago
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Why do you have all those eyeballs on your arm?

Oh, that... yeah, they said I had a lot of special characters in my LinkedIn password, and this is the best way to encode those.

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ryao
1 year ago
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You could likely store them in the junk DNA without much risk, as long as you avoid encoding sequences that are the start of coding regions. That said, if you managed to inject them into every cell of your body, this would be the biological equivalent of dropping pamphlets containing your passwords everywhere you go.
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SlightlyLeftPad
1 year ago
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They require at least one emoji and an uppercase character
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selcuka
1 year ago
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- Your password has expired. You must choose a new one.

- Uh, oh. How am I going to see behind me, then?

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Y_Y
1 year ago
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Might be a poor idea if anyone who can collect and sequence your DNA gets your passwords.
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rolandog
1 year ago
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Yeah, you'd be vulnerable to pepper shakers and divulging all your passwords in a sneeze.
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egillie
1 year ago
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All of my passwords are encoded in pi…somewhere
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magneticnorth
1 year ago
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Well, probably! But it hasn't actually been proven yet that pi is a "normal number" [0], though most mathematicians think it must be.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_number#

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chmod775
1 year ago
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That's a stronger claim anyhow. We'd merely need Pi to be a rich number, ... which hasn't been proven either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_sequence#Rich_numb...

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thaumasiotes
1 year ago
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It's not necessary that pi be normal in order for it to contain every possible sequence. Sufficient, but not necessary.
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Y_Y
1 year ago
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If the OP is anything like me, then they have no trust in number theory researchers and deliberately choose passwords like "141592" so they can be sure
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billforsternz
1 year ago
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I enjoy thinking about this. Not only is a sequence of digits encoding the complete works of Shakespeare in there somewhere, it's in there again. And again, an infinite number of times.
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Y_Y
1 year ago
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In my encoding I represent the works of Shakespeare by the digit 0, anything else by the digit 1 followed by its ASCII representation.
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throw0101c
1 year ago
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> The cool and dry conditions in the cave have made it possible for scientists to recover preserved DNA left behind by ancient Denisovans, Neanderthals and humans, all of whom occupied the cave at different times over 40,000 years.

That's a long time to have people live in a particular area generally, and a particular "home" in particular.

AIUI, some of the oldest writing we have dates to Ur III at 2000 BC, so that's 'only' 4000 years ago, or perhaps the Uruk period, which at 3500 BC, is 5500 years old:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_documents

* https://www.sfu.ca/~poitras/jesho_UR_14.pdf

So the oldest document(s) we have are only about 1/10th how long this cave was occupied.

Some of these time scales are mind-boggling.

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sitkack
1 year ago
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Send that to a consumer DNA analysis company and find her closest living relatives!
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b112
1 year ago
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It's basically everyone!
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theWreckluse
1 year ago
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Or, it could be no one at all!
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hackeraccount
1 year ago
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If you go back far enough (and I don't know if this is) isn't the answer always everyone or no one but never "some".
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sitkack
1 year ago
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I know that person!
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metalman
1 year ago
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this is just the begining of DNA as a tool in archiology. Earlier work with densovian dna, showed not only a genetic profile,of indivuals, it showed a familial relationship, father/daughter. The implication is that we will start to get a clearer look into human migration patterns ,including tribal, and familial groups, which while interesting, will also be prone to every kind of abuse in the forwarding of various agendas,...racial,ethnic,religios, nationalistic. Makes me want to stir the pot sometimes, and feed back in a lurid interpretation of ancient DNA, proving, i dont know, how about our ancestors throwing off our alien overlords, but now the death star has activated and is beaming alien DNA data right into us from the 5G, but, but, (marketing angle), ....eating , "product xx" or product xy, strengthens your imune system and prevents the alien download from finishing. The real issue in my blathering, is that fiction is fighting an uphill battle, to be stranger than reality.
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TeMPOraL
1 year ago
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I thought that it was already established that we're descendant of the ancient astronauts from the 12 Colonies of Kobol, and that the "mitochondrial Eve" was a child of a human and a Cylon.

(Part of me wishes to see this resurface as a bona fide religion, oblivious to the source material.)

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throwaway173738
1 year ago
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All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again.
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mparnisari
1 year ago
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How did they know to explore this cave in particular? Blows my mind. Or was it by accident?
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AlotOfReading
1 year ago
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Denisova cave has been known for about 150 years or so. Back in the 1970s, the Soviet Union sent some archaeologists out to see what was in the cave. They found some upper paleolithic stuff (e.g. like what the article is about), as well as some mousterian stuff (very weird this far north and east). They did excavations over the next couple of decades and eventually, some of the dating/sequencing technology improved to the point where it could actually be used on the cave artifacts. That's when they discovered denisovans and immediately made the cave one of the most important archaeological sites on the planet. There's been no lack of funding since.
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jvandonsel
1 year ago
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...and also showed that she had antlers.

(Sorry, I couldn’t resist)

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dgfitz
1 year ago
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> "It was clear that a human handled it…”

Ah, science.

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fortran77
1 year ago
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My first thought, after reading the headine, was that the deer bit her.
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dgfitz
1 year ago
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We have vastly different experiences with deer I suppose.
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Cthulhu_
1 year ago
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It's like IT, gotta make sure you have the basics right like whether it's plugged in before you start with more advanced stuff.
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jdiff
1 year ago
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There actually was human DNA in it so I don't know why we're scoffing as successful methods as if they're unreasonable.
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ursuscamp
1 year ago
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The article says that it belonged to a species of deer called “wapiti”. Since I never heard of it, I looked it up and it’s just an elk. Why didn’t the article just say “elk” which is the much more common term?
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chmod775
1 year ago
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Two reasons:

- Elk is ambiguous. There's an Elk/Wapiti in North America, Central Asia, and East Asia, and another species of deer referred to as an "Elk" by people in Eurasia, but which is known as a "Moose" in North America.

- Because journalists these days don't have time to look these kinds of things up. The original paper only refers to it as wapiti/cervus canadensis/deer. If the whoever wrote that article knew it refers to an elk, they'd have pointed that out for the reader.

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dan-robertson
1 year ago
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Elk is pretty ambiguous — it refers to different species depending on the context (in Europe, ‘elk’ refers to what in north America is called a moose. Wapiti is a name for what ‘elk’ refers to in North America). You get a similar problem with the words ‘hawk’ and ‘buzzard’
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jhbadger
1 year ago
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And badger -- In Europe they are small adorable members of the Meles genus. In the Americas, Africa, and Asia the word refers to larger and more aggressive animals in the Taxidea and Mellivora genera that just look superficially like Meles.
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bregma
1 year ago
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The wapiti is the animal on the reverse of the Canadian 25 cent definitive coin. Perhaps the folks who write the article are just educated and worldly.
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