Cure ID App Lets Clinicians Report Novel Uses of Existing Drugs
72 points
9 days ago
| 6 comments
| fda.gov
| HN
mdip
5 days ago
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Interesting ... it's presented in the context of drugs for curing infections.

I wonder if this is being used for other drugs. My curiosity stems from personal experience: I had Migraine headaches from age 17 to about 35. I was put on ancient seizure medication that's common prescribed for Bipolar[0] because this doctor had three other patients that it nearly eliminated Migraine from. It was fall, a time when I'd get about one a week. After five days of taking it, I had my first Migraine ... if you could call it that -- I could only identify that it was a Migraine by the aura; the pain was about 10% what I'm used to).

Searching through the web, I found a forum that was filled with Migraine sufferers. Sure enough, there were a handful of people who swore by it. There were also a handful of people who it didn't work for. Looking at the more official sources, there was no indication that this drug could have any effect on Migraine; they listed all of the other off-label uses[1], but Migraine was not among them.

This medication had been in the news several times (and on the front page, here[2]) over the last few years and a year ago (or so), I looked it up on the "official sources", again. It now indicated that it was prescribed for Migraine.

It made me wonder ... how are things like that figured out/communicated down-stream? Is it entirely informally amongst doctors? I went to four different specialists before I found one who suggested this drug -- and he did so in a "half-hearted manner" not truly expecting it would work. It'd be nice if this was centrally tracked/managed as it might surface both "new uses for old drugs" and "new problems with old drugs."

[0] Which I do not have.

[1] It's rarely, if ever, prescribed for what it was originally approved for.

[2] It's Depakote, I'm not being cagey for nefarious purposes, I just didn't want this to be a drug advertisement.

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meew0
5 days ago
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Once drugs lose patent protection, it's difficult for them to gain approval for new indications, because drug approval procedures are extremely expensive and there's no patent holder left for whom it would make economic sense to spend all that money.

So in cases like valproate for migraine, those drugs usually stay off-label long term. That makes them unattractive for doctors to prescribe, since they assume more liability if something goes wrong, and insurance companies are less likely to cover the drugs.

The way information about off-label uses gets communicated is basically the same way as elsewhere in science: through scientific papers, conferences, textbooks, and the like. A doctor who discovers that their migraine patient does well on valproate might publish this as a case report. If there are many such reports, someone might do a randomized trial. Once there are many randomized trials, meta-analyses can be performed, and eventually, the information will end up in textbooks and medical school curricula.

It takes a certain amount of agency for a doctor to stay up to date on the latest research; while medical boards tend to have certification requirements for CME (continuing medical education), these are usually quite lax, and a truly lazy doctor can probably just live their years without really learning anything new.

At the same time, reading all new research that comes out is basically impossible, and even just trying to do this would risk always following the latest fads that later evidence might show to, in fact, be harmful. Every doctor needs to find their own middle ground here, and you as a patient must find a doctor that suits your own preferences.

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dylan604
5 days ago
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> Once drugs lose patent protection, it's difficult for them to gain approval for new indications, because drug approval procedures are extremely expensive and there's no patent holder left for whom it would make economic sense to spend all that money.

This is precisely why I think a gov't run research effort is the right way to handle this. You don't want to grant a new patent on the existing drug just because of new use of it. That would prevent the generics being used for the original purpose. So if the bigPharma company that created it for original purposes does not want to spend money researching alternate uses, then allow the gov't direct the research in the name of keeping its citizens healthy.

Unfortunately, that doesn't really stand up as a great solution with using the current administration as an example of what happens when you get anti-science mindsets in charge of things. It also helps to have a gov't that is empathetic for its citizens which does not always happen.

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meew0
5 days ago
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Yes, in fact, most of the types of research I mentioned, where random people at hospitals do small trials on existing medications, is going to be partially government funded.

But care must be taken to avoid the tulip subsidies problem [1]: the barriers to drug approval are regulatory, not natural. If a drug regulatory agency sets high requirements for approval and another governmental agency must do expensive work to satisfy these requirements, there is a risk that costs go out of control without any real benefit.

Instead, my favoured solution would be to significantly relax regulatory requirements in cases like this where a drug has already been proven to be safe both in the original approval trials and in years of real-world use, such that when trials and meta-analyses exist that suffice to convince the medical establishment of a drug's safety and efficacy for a new indication, these would also be enough for the drug to gain approval for that indication.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/06/06/against-tulip-subsidie...

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smeej
5 days ago
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I wonder if some sort of coalition of compounding pharmacists might be up for making and retaining a repository. They at least make some money by helping would-be patients take these drugs, right? So even if it's nothing like Big Pharma money, I can't really think of anybody who'd have a better chance to benefit from promoting off-label use cases for out of patent drugs than them.
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robertlagrant
4 days ago
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Yes, but why be the one to set it up? Why not be the pharmacist who waits for others to do it, and then sell it anyway?
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smeej
4 days ago
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...sell ads on it? Maybe for the docs who are willing to prescribe off-label? Maybe for other pharmacies?

I don't know. Maybe it's not a viable business model, but there are certainly weirder things that make money.

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GuinansEyebrows
5 days ago
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I'm in the same boat with propanalol - my doctor told me it was "the worst blood pressure medication available, but surprisingly effective at preventing migraine symptoms (as well as physical symptoms of anxiety)".
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mollyphelps
4 days ago
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While it started with clinicians reporting off-label treatments for infectious diseases, it has since expanded. Users can now report treatments for any disease, and the reports can be made by patients, their caregivers, or healthcare providers. I have been involved with the team as a community advocate. You should enter your experience on the site! You can go to https://cure.ncats.io or they have a mobile app “CURE ID” available on the App and Play Store. Happy to answer other questions if folks have them or connect you to the right people. The CURE ID team has been really collaborative and eager to engage with members of the community.
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LorenPechtel
5 days ago
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Yeah, sounds like they got something right.

Real world, sometimes a doctor will think up a novel use of the effect of a drug. And sometimes they'll throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. When you don't have a good answer this can be sane medical practice. But there should be a requirement of reporting it to something like this database.

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viraptor
5 days ago
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It's not even about the doctors trying things themselves. Enough people have more than one issue at the time that they will notice "you prescribed this for A, but B went away as well".
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AStonesThrow
5 days ago
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Physicians are a priestly profession, and they communicate in mysterious ways known only yo Aesclepias, Hermes, and Hippocrates and Toth...

Now wave that cadaceus around my head another time, Morpheus

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navan
5 days ago
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Just today I read about this in the book "Who is Government" by Michael Lewis where he presents the case on how it can help find cure for rare diseases. You can read his article at https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2025/mic....

Also highly recommend the book.

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rvba
5 days ago
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That article has a horrible writing style. So much fluff and so litlle content.
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shreezus
5 days ago
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There are so many interesting, off-label novel uses for drugs that have already been developed. Recently my wife & I adopted a kitten that developed FIP, a disease caused by a feline coronavirus that was nearly 100% fatal up until just a few years ago.

Turns out, a drug developed by Gilead Sciences (GS-441524) which is the active metabolite of remdesivir, is remarkably effective at treating the disease. It's a nucleoside analog, so it essentially is a slightly modified adenosine molecule which disrupts the virus RNA replication process.

Within 12 hours of the first dose our cat went from dying to making a full turnaround and complete recovery following treatment. For us it was truly a miracle drug, and it only gained awareness recently due to the COVID-19 pandemic [1]. It still isn't technically "approved" for this use case, but is prescribed off-label by vets as of 2024 once the FDA relaxed its position [2]. Folks needed to seek it out on the black market (and still do in some areas).

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/05/remdesiv...

[2] https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/cvm-updates/fda-announ...

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CharlieDigital
5 days ago
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Very cool seeing this show up on HN. FDA has a bunch of interested datasets like this that are full of interesting data points.

During COVID, I actually wrote a small sample app that pulls info from this DB: https://www.covidcureid.com/

And gave a talk on it: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/shows/azure-serverless-con...

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radicalbyte
5 days ago
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How viable would it be to mirror the set? Given that the US is having it's ISIS book-burning moment so the original sources are at risk :(
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CharlieDigital
5 days ago
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Try emailing the team and see if you can get the data set: https://cure.ncats.io/resources/ehr-resources

Otherwise, my code to extract the data is here: https://github.com/CharlieDigital/covidcureid/blob/main/serv...

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Onawa
5 days ago
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NCATS and other NIH data resource teams were heavily affected or completely dismantled during the latest reductions in force (RIFs). Getting data from certain areas inside HHS will be difficult to impossible for the foreseeable future.
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kens
5 days ago
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Your concerns may be justified. The site says: "This repository is under review for potential modification in compliance with Administration directives."
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mollyphelps
4 days ago
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I volunteer with the team and they are very open to sharing the data. It’s all freely available on the website and app, but if you want to request a download of it for your own analysis, etc, they are happy to provide one. You do have to sign a data use/transfer agreement in that case, which they are working on revising right now. You can email curesupport@nih.gov to request a download of the data. Also they recently emailed us about that note - the Administration is requiring all NIH programs that collect any human data to post that message.
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adamredwoods
5 days ago
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I wonder how this is going (started 2013), because I have a hunch it will be chasing ghosts, mostly. Placebo affect is a factor here. I also wonder how many fake leads from "propaganda physicians" they get.
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lenerdenator
5 days ago
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You don't know you're chasing ghosts until you start running.

There's not much wrong with the system so long as it's used as a place to get ideas for clinical studies or absolute last-ditch attempts at saving lives. On occasion (like the Milwaukee Protocol for rabies), those last-ditch attempts do work.

It's when people pretend there's no real investigation to be done that we get problems.

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bluGill
5 days ago
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The real thing is can we (perhaps with new advances in statistics?) find places where doctors at the end of all known treatment try things at random and see if anything works. For rare symptoms it often isn't possible to run a proper controlled study (note that I said symptoms and not disease - often we are not really sure what is going on). So if we can give doctors a list "here is what someone else tried and or treatment Y seems to make things worse that is a clue. Eventually we can say that we don't know why, but X seems like your best shot even if it we can never get to real statistical significance.

Doctors already have case studies which they (at least should) publish anytime they get someone who for whatever reason doesn't respond to standard treatment, or has something unknown. However it is hard for the next doctor to find any that might be relevant.

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GuinansEyebrows
5 days ago
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Yeah, this seems like a worthwhile service, but I can't stop thinking about ivermectin.
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mschuster91
5 days ago
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It became apparent really fast that ivermectin was effective... against a superinfection with parasites, which the reported success cases all had.

But by the time it became apparent, the correction didn't spread nearly as fast nor wide as the original information.

The problem is, most people lack the scientific literacy to understand how science works, and many newspapers have long since gutted their expert journalists.

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adamredwoods
4 days ago
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Excuse me? Do you know how ivermectin works? Read up on it, it blocks ion channels in invertebrates. Not mammals. It doesn't do anything to mammals unless you reach extremely high doses.
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jjtheblunt
5 days ago
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"Content current as of: 06/08/2020"
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