I'm glad they tracked it down even further to figure out exactly why.
https://randomascii.wordpress.com/2016/10/17/vestibular-dysf...
I documented it this time :sigh: https://github.com/MatthewJohn/terrareg/commit/2231ba733a7f5...
He has many better ones but that's the latest one I've seen
It blows my mind that the languages allow you to leave variables uninitialized which has caused countless bugs (including production bugs that I have seen first hand), and you often need to rely on additional compiler flags or static analysis tools/valgrind etc to catch them. Even though newer languages often use a different solution (default zero value or must initialize a variable before use), people still go back to C/C++ all the time.
For reference, the actual proposal that was accepted into C++26 is [2]. It discusses performance only in general, and it refers to an earlier analysis [3] for more details. This last reference describes regressions of around 0.5% in time and in code size. Earlier prototypes suggested larger regressions (perhaps even "horrendous") but more emphasis on compiler optimizations has brought the regression down considerably.
Of course one's mileage may vary, and one might also consider a 0.5% regression unacceptable. However, the C++ committee seems to have considered this to be an acceptable tradeoff to remove a frequent cause of undefined behavior from C++.
[1]: https://herbsutter.com/2024/08/07/reader-qa-what-does-it-mea...
[2]: https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2024/p27...
[3]: https://open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2023/p2723r1...
As an additional protection, new stack frames are implicitly zeroed as they are created. I assume this is done by filling the CPU cache with zeros for those addresses before continuing to execute the called function. No need to wait for actual zeros to be written to main memory.
It'd be expensive though; every context switch would require it's own stack and pushing / restoring one more register. There's GOOD reason programs don't work that way and are supposed to not rely on values outside of properly initialized (and not later clobbered) memory.
> Nov 22, 2012 — Perl 5.18 will introduce per process hash randomization and almost certainly will feature a new hash function.> This is an interesting lesson in compatibility: even changes to the stack layout of the internal implementations can have compatibility implications if an application is bugged and unintentionally relies on a specific behavior.
I suppose this is why Linux kernel maintainers insist on never breaking user space.
With a sufficient number of users of an API,
it does not matter what you promise in the contract:
all observable behaviors of your system
will be depended on by somebody.
And then you can never remove it!
I know it's easier said than done everywhere, just found it to be an interesting parallel.
You don't. You say the order is undefined.
Check the table at https://docs.adacore.com/spark2014-docs/html/ug/en/usage_sce..., look for "SPARK builds on the strengths of Ada to provide even more guarantees statically rather than dynamically.".
More reading:
https://docs.adacore.com/spark2014-docs/html/ug/en/tutorial....
https://learn.adacore.com (many books for learning Ada and SPARK) available in PDF, EPUB, and HTML format.
Also, scanf should be deprecated. Terrible API. Never use scanf or sscanf etc. We managed to get "gets()" deprecated, time to spread that to other parts of the API.
atoi() or atof() etc. work OK, but really you need a parser.
It turned out there a few places that had assumed a predictable - not just stable, but deterministic - hash key iteration order. Mostly this showed up as tests that failed 50% of the time, which suggested to me a rough measure of how annoying an error is to track down is inversely correlated with how often the error appears in tests.
(Other issues were mostly due to the fact that Perl 5 is all but abandoned by its former community: a few CPAN modules are just gone, some are so far out of date that they can't be coerced to still work with other modules that have been updated over time. )
Most modern langages do that as part of hashdos mitigation, Python did that until it switched to a naturally ordered hashmap, then made insertion order part of the spec. Importantly iteration order remains consistent with a process (possibly on a per-hashmap basis).
Notably, Go will randomise the starting point of hashmap iteration on each iteration.
What compiler error would you expect here? Maybe not checking the return value from scanf to make sure it matches the number of parameters? Otherwise this seems like a data file error that the compiler would have no clue about.
Yes it would. -fsanitize=address does a bunch of instrumentation - it allocates shadow memory to keep track of what main memory is defined, and it checks every read and write address against the shadow memory. It is a combination of compile-time instrumentation and run-time checking. And yes, it is expensive, so it should be used for debugging and not the final release.
https://clang.llvm.org/docs/AddressSanitizer.html , https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/sanitizers/asan?view=m...
There's no use-after-free, use-after-return, use-after-scope, or OOB access here. It's a case of "an allocated stack variable is dynamically read without being initialized only in a runtime case," which afaik no standard analyzer will catch.
The best way to identify this would be to require all locals to be initialized as a matter of policy (very unlikely to fly in a games studio, especially back then, due to the perceived performance overhead) or to debug with a form of stack initialization enabled, like "-ftrivial-auto-var-init=pattern" which while it doesn't catch the issue statically, does make it appear pretty quickly in QA (I tested).
I only use UBSan and ASan on my own programs because I tend not to make mistakes about initialization. So my knowledge is incomplete with respect to auditing other people's code, which can have different classes of errors than mine.
Thank goodness that every language that is newer than C and C++ doesn't repeat these design mistakes, and doesn't require these awkward sanitizer tools that are introduced decades after the fact.
The simpler policy of "don't allow unintialized locals when declared" would also have caught it with the tools available when the game was made (though a bit ham-fisted).
int x, y, z;
int n = scanf("%d %d %d", &x, &y, &z);
One is to insist on definite assignment - so if we cannot prove all of them are always assigned, then we can treat them as "possibly undefined" and err out.
Another way is to avoid passing references and instead allow multiple returns, like Python (this is pseudocode):
x, y, z = scanf("%d %d %d")
Another way is like Java, which insists that the return value is a scalar, so it can't do what C and Python can do. This can be painful on the programmer, of course.
int n = scanf("%d %d %d", &x, &y, &z);
It's probably what the PR resolving the issue I linked to does. Though I didn't check
But because the whole line is parsed in a single sscanf call, the compiler's static analysis is forced to assume they have now initialised. There doesn't seem to be any generic static analysis approach that can catch this bug.
Though... you could make a specialised warning just for scanf that forced you to either pass in pre-initilized values or check the return result.
But AI won't replace them, nor did the past 50+ years of software development innovation. There's millions (tens of millions?) of higher programming language developers that don't know the difference between stack or heap besides maybe some theory they half remember from school but they don't care because they don't have to think about it for their day job.
This reminds me of an excellent article I read a while back, the gist of it was that, given sufficient success, there's no such thing as a private API.
Win9x video games that made bad assumptions about the stack were a theme I saw. One of the differences between win9x and NT based windows is that kernel32 (later kernelbase) is a now user mode wrapper atop ntdll, whereas in the olden days kernel32 would trap directly into the kernel. This means that kernel32 uses more user mode stack space in NT. A badly behaving app that stored data to the left of the stack pointer and called into kernel32 might see its data structures clobbered in NT and not in 9x. So there were compatibility hacks that temporarily moved the stack pointer for certain apps.
IIRC, they had a significant lab and tons of infrastructure for exercising and identifying compatibility issues in thousands of popular and less popular software packages. It all got distilled into a huge database of app fingerprints and corresponding compatibility shims to be applied at runtime.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250423144746/https://cookieplm...
This sentence is the real takeaway point of the article. Undefined behavior is extremely insidious and can lull you into the belief that you were right, when you already made a mistake 1000 steps ago but it only got triggered now.
I emphasized this point in my article from years ago (but after the game was released):
> When a C or C++ program triggers undefined behavior, anything is allowed to happen in the program execution. And by anything, I really mean anything: The program can crash with an error message, it can silently corrupt data, it can morph into a colorful video game, or it can even give the right result.
> If you’re lucky, the program triggering UB will show an appropriate error message and/or crash, making you immediately aware that something went wrong. If you’re unlucky, the program will quietly mangle data, and by the time you notice the problem (via effects such as crashes or incorrect output) the root cause has been buried in the past execution history. And if you’re very unlucky, the program will do exactly what you hoped it should do, until you change some unrelated code / compiler versions / compiler vendors / operating systems / hardware platforms – and then a new bug becomes visible, and you have no clue why seemingly correct code now fails to work properly.
-- https://www.nayuki.io/page/undefined-behavior-in-c-and-cplus...
As I wrote in my article, this point really got hammered into me when a coworker showed me a patch that he made - which added a couple of innocuous, totally correct print statements to an existing C++ program - and that triggered a crash. But without his print statements, there was no crash. It turned out that there was a preexisting out-of-bounds array write, and the layout of the stack/heap somehow masked that problem before, and his unlucky prints unmasked the problem.
Okay so then, how can we do better as developers today?
0) Read, understand, and memorize what actions in C or C++ are undefined behavior. Avoid them in your code at all costs. Also obey the preconditions of any API you use, whether in the standard library, operating system, etc.
1) Compile your application in Debug mode and compare its behavior to Release mode. If they differ by anything other than speed, then you have a serious problem on your hands.
2) Compile and run with sanitizers like -fsanitize=undefined,address to catch undefined behavior at runtime.
3) Use managed languages like Java, C#, Python, etc. where you basically don't have to worry about UB in normal day-to-day code. Or use very well-designed low-level languages like Rust that are safe by default and minimize your exposure to UB when you really need to do advanced things. Whereas C and C++ have been a bonanza of UB like we have never seen before in any other language.
[1]: https://herbsutter.com/2024/08/07/reader-qa-what-does-it-mea...
while (this->m_fBladeAngle > 6.2831855) { this->m_fBladeAngle = this->m_fBladeAngle - 6.2831855; }
Like, "let's just write a while loop that could turn into an infinite loop coz I'm too lazy to do a division"
But knowing they were able to they were able to blow up loading GTA5 by 5 minutes by just parsing json with sscanf, I don't have much hope.
Writing some simple code that works with the data you expect to have without bothering with optimizations is fine, if anything it is one of the actual cases of "premature optimization": even with profiling no real time is spent on that code, your data wont make it spend any time and you should avoid wild guesses since chances are you'll be wrong (even if in this case it could be a correct guess, it'd be like a broken clock guessing the time is always 13:37).
The actual issue with that code was that, after they reused it for GTAOnline and started becoming a performance issue after some time as they added more objects, nobody thought to try and see what is wrong.
The second error of deduplicating values by linear scanning an array was way more egregious.
There is absolutely no way this could turn into an infinite loop. It could underflow, but for that to happen angle would have to be less than the 2*pi, therefore exiting the loop.
When you subtract a small float from a very large float, the value doesn't change. This is because the "steps" between float values increase with the size of the value (i.e. floats have coarser resolution for larger magnitudes)
To see this in action, try running the following in a JavaScript interpreter:
console.log(1_000_000_000_000_000_000 - 1);
It will “never” become big.
So why check? It’s unnecessary.
Thus the bug.
(so, for example, this bug would have never been created by Rust unless it was deeply misused)
And that's not to mention the uncomfortable truth that while doing this correctly in something like Rust may very well take less effort overall than in C++, that is not the bar we are aiming to clear. They wanted to implement something that was correct-enough, and given that this bug wasn't hit for 20+ years and that the game was a roaring success on all the major platforms - I think that was the right decision.
Though, I really like the _mm_undefined_ps() intrinsics for SSE that make it clear that you're purposefully not initialising a variable. Something like that for ints and floats would be pretty sweet.
When I think of the "no runtime cost" mentality of C/C++ I don't think that normally extends to ignoring errors in I/O functions.
> The performance impact is negligible (less that 0.5% regression) to slightly positive (that is, some code gets faster by up to 1%). The code size impact is negligible (smaller than 0.5%). Compile-time regressions are negligible. Were overheads to matter for particular coding patterns, compilers would be able to obviate most of them.
> The only significant performance/code regressions are when code has very large automatic storage duration objects. We provide an attribute to opt-out of zero-initialization of objects of automatic storage duration. We then expect that programmer can audit their code for this attribute, and ensure that the unsafe subset of C++ is used in a safe manner.
> This change was not possible 30 years ago because optimizations simply were not as good as they are today, and the costs were too high. The costs are now negligible.
[1] https://github.com/cplusplus/papers/issues/1401
[2] https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2023/p27...
A trick we were using with SSE was something like
__m128 zero = _mm_undefined_ps(); zero = _mm_xor_ps(zero, zero);
Now we were really careful with viewing our ops as data dependencies to reason about pipelining efficiency. But our profiling tools were not measuring this.
We did avoid _mm_set_ps(0.0f) which was actually showing up as cache misses.
I wonder if we were actually slower because cache misses are something we can measure?!
That's one hell of a language!
It's true that C may be unique-ish in this regard though- this bug also couldn't happen in Ruby, which is not a functional language, but Ruby certainly still makes undefined behaviors much more possible than in other languages like Elixir.
A little piece of technology made sense in the original context, but then it got moved to a different context without realizing that move broke the contract. Specifically in this case a flying boat became an airplane.
---
I recently worked a bug that feels very similar:
A linux cups printer would not print to the selected tray, instead it always requested manual feed.
Ok. Try a bunch of command line options, same issue.
Ok. Make the selection directly in the PPD (postscript printer definition) file. Same issue.
Ok! Decompile the PXL file. Wrong tray is set in pxl file... why?
Check Debug2 log level for cups - Wrong MediaPosition is being sent to ghostscript (which compiles the printer options into the print job) by a cups filter... why?
Cups filter is translating the MediaPosition from the PPD file... because the philosophy of cups is to do what the user intended. The intention inferred from MediaPosition in the PPD file (postscript printer definition) is that the MediaPosition corresponds to the PWG (Printer Working Group) MediaPosition, NOT the vendor MediaPosition (or local equivalent - in this case MediaSource).
AHA!! My PPD file had been copied from a previous generation of server, from a time when that cups filter did NOT translate the MediaPosition, so the VENDOR MediaSource numbers were used. Historically, this makes sense. The vendor tray number is set in the vendor ppd file because cups didn't know how to translate that.
Fast forward to a new execution context, and cups filters have gotten better at translating user intention, now it's translating a number that doesn't need to be translated, and silently selecting the wrong tray.
TLDR; There is no such thing as a printer command, only printer suggestions.
(a component being reused in a new context where a contract is broken, not bad CUPS drivers)
I'm ignorant about game development, virtual machines and system programming but from the little I understand it seems a sensible choice to make.
While there is an initial price to pay modeling 99% of the game to be implemented on a user-implemented stack seems a sensible approach to me.
Generally, game console "debug" configurations aren't "true" debug like most people think of -- optimizations are still globally enabled, but the build generally has a number of debug systems enabled that naturally require the use of a devkit. Devkits, especially back then, generally had 2-3x as much memory as retail systems -- so you'd happily sacrifice framerate during feature development to have those systems enabled.
Debugging was (and still is) generally done on optimized builds and, once you know the general area of the problem, you simply disable optimizations for that file or subsystem if you can't pinpoint the issue in an optimized build.
The biggest performance hit, in general, comes from disabling optimizations in the compiler. I say "in general" because there are systems that might be used to find this kind of thing that DO make a game wholly unplayable, such as a stomp allocator. Of course, you wouldn't generally enable a stomp allocator across all your allocations unless you're desperate, so you could still have that enabled to find this kind of bug and end up with a playable game.
The more likely reason here is that no one noticed or cared. GTA:SA is 21 years old and this bug doesn't affect the Xbox or other versions.
> (with checks for things like this enabled)
You can (and could) easily compile an optimized build with debug symbols to track down sources of issues, but catching a bug like this would likely take a dynamic checker like Valgrind or MSan, which do not allow for any optimizations if you want to avoid false negatives, and add even more overhead on top of that. (Valgrind with its full processor-level virtualization, and MSan with its shadow state on every access. But MSan didn't exist at the time, and Valgrind barely existed.)
At minimum, fine-grained stack randomization might have exposed the issue, but only if it happened to be spotted in playtests on the debug build.
Really this is more a story about poor development practice than it is an interesting bug.
Devs need to be aware that the following C++ initisliser exists which zeros data structures for you:
MyStruct s = { };
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/gta-myths/images/f/f1/Egg_...
Mitigations exist - ASLR, NX pages, stack-smashing protection etc. but nothing comprehensively stops reads of stale data beyond the stack.
Thought experiment for a moment. What if the hardware ensures the unused part of a stack region cannot be read or written.
There are many ways to skin this cat, here’s one based around tracking each stack’s start address A, size S, and current depth D
1. Add an instruction to inform the CPU there is a stack at address A of size S. Its depth D is initially 0.
2. Add a jump instruction which reserves N bytes on the stack at address A, growing depth D to (D+N). Maybe this can be its own “reserve” instruction so as not to need a new jump instruction.
3. Give existing return instructions stack awareness. If returning to an address inside a stack, un-reserve the bytes reserved by the most recent jump, making the new depth (D-N).
4. Fail reads or writes to the stack region beyond its current depth. In other words fail all reads and writes between A+S-D and A+S.
5. The arithmetic is reversed on architectures whose stacks grow downwards.
Downsides I can see:
It cements one calling convention. The CPU memory manager will need a lot of state per stack, of which there are many per process: address A, size S, current depth D, plus a reservation stack - ie. sizes of each frame’s stack memory. That’s a lot of bookkeeping! It’s far from zero cost. The limits of how much bookkeeping the CPU can do impose limits on how deep a stack can go and how many stacks are supported - so when there are too many stacks or one goes too deep, either the CPU needs to signal failure or engage a fallback mode and revert to behaving as CPUs do today. And of course fallback puts things back to the start. It’d therefore only mitigate situations in which an attacker cannot control the depth of the stack / a bug always happens inside the max depth the CPU can bookkeep for.
That said, stacks are ubiquitous! Hardware stack awareness opens up all kinds of new mitigations.
Why isn’t this a common idea? Has it been tried?
IMHO this shows the downfall of Microsoft. Why did they do that? Critical sections have been there for many decades and should be basically bug-free by now. My best guess is someone thought they'd "improve" things and rewrote it, then made some microbenchmark that maybe showed the dubious improvement.
The other comment here mentions Raymond Chen, who wrote this article about why backwards-compatibility is very important (and arguably what got Microsoft into the position it's in today):
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20031224-00/?p=41...
and also this memorable case: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2281932
That's a problem for the party trying to sell operating system updates.
LOL!
A real update should fix both (note: I don't believe the later releases did, they also just added defaults to the parser) but for SilentPatch: a mod is not a real update, and being as simple as possible to remove & reducing conflicts with other mods is more important here than a fix that digs as deep as possible.
I spent hours looking for a badger.
They wrote a JSON “parser” using sscanf. sscanf is not bulletproof! Just use an open source library instead of writing something yourself. You will still be a real programmer, but you will finish your game sooner and you won't have embarrassing stories written about you.
Nothing has changed appreciably. If they would let you login to a private invite-only lobby that would likely speed things up greatly— but it’ll never happen.
> If they would let you login to a private invite-only lobby that would likely speed things up greatly— but it’ll never happen.
Did they remove this option in the last couple years?
However, it's not even remotely "like crack". Crack is really really really really fun, period, no "just enough of the time" about it. The reason people get hooked on crack is because it's guaranteed to be fun.
If I had to choose a substance that most closely mirrored variable ratio reinforcement conditioning, it'd probably be ketamine.
If you don't know what “good” looks like, take a look at [Serde](https://serde.rs/). It’s for Rust, but its features and overall design are something you should attempt to approach no matter what language you’re writing in.
The only C code that I have recently interacted with uses a home–grown JSON “library” that is actually pretty good. In particular it produces good error messages. If it were extracted out into its own project then I would be able to recommend it as a library.
Apart from that, many of us thought that Java serialization was good if just used correctly, that IE's XML parsing capabilities were good if just used correctly, and so on. We were all very wrong. And a 3rd party library would be just some code taken from the web, or some proprietary solution where you'd once again have to trust the vendor.
> And a 3rd party library would be just some code taken from the web, or some proprietary solution where you'd once again have to trust the vendor.
Open source exists for a reason, and had already existed for ~15 years by the time this game was begun. 20 years later there are even fewer excuses to be stuck using some crappy code that you bought from a vendor and cannot fix.
But also keep in mind in 2004 the legality of many open source projects was not really tested very well in court. Pretty sure that was right around the time one of the bigger linux distros was throwing its weight around and suing people. So you want to ship on PS2 and XBOX and PC and GameCube. Can you use that lib from inside windows? Not really. Can you build/vs buy? Buy means you need the code and probably will have to port it to PS2/GameCube yourself. Can you use that opensource lib? Probably, but legal is still dragging its feet, and you get to port it to PS2. Meanwhile your devs need a library 3 weeks ago and have hacked something together from an older codebase that your company owns and it works and means you can hit your gold master date.
Would you do that now? No. You would grab one of the multitudes of decent libs out there and make sure you are following the terms correctly. Back then? Yeah I can totally see it happening. Open source was semi legally grey/opaque to many corporations. They were scared to death of losing control of their secret sauce code and getting sued.
I don't follow. What would the reasons be?
(There is no way to prevent changes by a knowledgeable person with time or tools, so that's not a goal)
It's only now that single player progress is profitable to sell that video games have taken save game encryption to be default.
It's so stupid.
One of the anecdotes from Titan Quest developed by Iron Lore is that their copy protection had multiple checks, crackers removed the early checks to get the game running but later 'tripwires' as you progress through the game remained and the game appeared to crash. So the game earned a reputation for being buggy for something no normal user would hit running the game as intended.
What? No. What even are you suggesting? Hell, games with OFFICIAL MODDING SUPPORT still require you submit bug reports with no mods running.
Editing game files has always been "you are on your own", even editing standard Unreal config files is something you wont get support for, and they are trivial human readable files with well known standards.
>One of the anecdotes from Titan Quest
Any actual support for this anecdote? Lots of games have anti-piracy features that sneakily cause problems, and even could fire accidentally. None of those games get a reputation for being buggy. Games like Earthbound would make the game super hard and even delete your save game at the very end. Batman games would nerf your gliding ability. Game Dev Tycoon would kill your business due to piracy.
None of these affected the broad reputation of the game. Most of them are pretty good marketing in fact.
On top of that, the hardware requirements (256MB of system RAM, and the PlayStation 2 only had 32MB) made it enough of a challenge to get the game running at all. Throwing in a heavyweight parsing library for either of these three languages was out of the question.
Most of the time, the programmers who do this do not follow the simple rule that Stroustrup said which is to define or initialize a variable where you declare it (i.e. declare it before using it), and which would solve a lot of bugs in C++.
struct test {
int my_int = 0;
int* my_ptr = std::nullptr;
};
You cannot initialize them with a different value unless you also write a constructor, but it not the issue here (since you are supposed to read them from the file system)
struct test {
int my_int;
int *my_ptr;
test() : my_int(0), my_ptr(NULL) {}
};The standars "artist" have are atificial and snoby.
How can Deadmau5/whatever EDM artist sell so much?
I worked in gamedev around the time this game was made and this would have been very much an ordinary, everyday kind of bug. The only really exceptional thing about it is that it was discovered after such a long time.
Yeah but we're talking about a 2004 game that was pretty rushed after 2002's Vice City (and I wouldn't be surprised if the bug in the ingestion code didn't exist there as well, just wasn't triggered due to the lack of planes except that darn RC Chopper and RC plane from that bombing run mission). Back then, the tooling to spot UB and code smell didn't even exist or, if at all, it was very rudimentary, or the warnings that did come up were just ignored because everything seemed to work.
https://nee.lv/2021/02/28/How-I-cut-GTA-Online-loading-times...
This isn't that uncommon - look at something like Diablo 2 which has a huge amount of game data defined from text files (I think these are encoded to binary when shipped but it was clearly useful to give the game a mode where it'd load them all from text on startup).
Besides, the complaint about not having a heavyweight parser here is weird. This is supposed to be "trusted data", you shouldn't have to treat the file as a threat, so a single line sscanf that's just dumping parsed csv attributes into memory is pretty great IMO.
Definitely initialize variables when it comes to C though.
To be honest, I just don't like how you disparaged the programmer out-of-context. Talk is cheap.
But it is even more important for today’s game studios to see and understand the mistakes that yesterday’s studios made. That’s the only way to avoid making them all over again.
And in 2004, didn't have a published specification, or much use outside of webdev (which hadn't eaten the world yet).
> and SAX parsers are 22
And, especially at the time, pretty much exclusive to Java, right?
Put another way, which are the high-quality open-source implementations of those formats that the developers should've considered while working on SA in 2003 and 2004? Or for that matter, in the 2001-2002 timeframe, when the parsing code was probably actually written for use in VC?
Your average hire for the time might have been self-taught with the occasional C89 tutorial book and two years of Digipen. Today’s graduates going into games have fallen asleep to YouTube lectures of Scott Meyers and memorized all the literature on a fixed timestep.