The chemical secrets that help keep honey fresh for so long
182 points
4 days ago
| 13 comments
| bbc.com
| HN
Jun8
12 hours ago
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Same principle, reducing water activity (aw), is how Nutella keeps fresh for so long without refrigeration: its water activity is even lower than honey. Most bacteria need an aw of around 0.85 to thrive, Nutella’s aw is around 0.4, honey’s around 0.5-0.6. Peanut butter is 0.7, so it stays fresh for relatively long, too.

Here’s the definition of water activity from FDA:https://www.fda.gov/inspections-compliance-enforcement-and-c...

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grues-dinner
3 hours ago
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This is something that I think about sometimes. Life on Earth has had billions of years and expanded to fill so many niches, but they're nearly all damp niches. Nothing has ever really managed to really thrive in deserts. Sure, there are a few cacti, succulents, a bit of scrub, a few palms and rodents and a few birds that eke out an existence. But really it's mostly barren, compared to temperate or tropical climates where nature takes over land entirely within years. Yes, the soil in deserts is poor, but that's a consequence: it was poor everywhere before plants conditioned it. It's just that evolution has never in a billion years hit on a way to capitalise on all that sunlight and those day/night temperature gradients without enough water to float all the microbiology in.

Probably just as well (invoke some kind of anthropic principle here if you like) or we'd have, say, fungus there can quickly eat dry things and storing food or building anything with longevity would be much harder.

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IAmBroom
3 minutes ago
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> Life on Earth has had billions of years and expanded to fill so many niches, but they're nearly all damp niches. Nothing has ever really managed to really thrive in deserts.

By definition, the desert "niche" IS filled. It has as much life as it can support. That doesn't mean wall-to-wall forest; you wouldn't expect to find that covering a field of barely weathered granite, either.

All life on Earth uses water to transport chemicals and ions across its cells. Period. It's one immutable requirement of life on Earth.

I wonder if there's some general mathematical description one could form of the biomass per acre versus water content of the "surface soil". The oceans provide the extreme, but even then there are "biodeserts" far from land where there are insufficient nutrients (organic chemicals, probably) to keep even algae going.

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cs02rm0
14 minutes ago
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Even then, you don't have to spend much time in a desert to realise that what does grow is in low lying places where there's water underground, or where brief rains collect.
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barrenko
1 hour ago
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May be unrelated, but it's also kinda funny how to cut / process / shape stone and rock you need a crap load of water, all the drills and saws for stone are wet in a way.
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felbane
1 hour ago
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You can cut and shape rock with chisels. Isn't the water used primarily for dust control in powered stone drills/saws?
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horsawlarway
52 minutes ago
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Cooling, lubrication, debris removal and dust control. Mostly in that order.

But yeah, you're completely right about the chisel. Hammer and chisel is how we've processed rocks for most of history (all the way back to flint knapping).

Wet processing for tile/stone is really only about 100 years old, since we didn't have a usable cutting abrasive until diamond blades came around in the late 1800s.

---

All that aside, the problem with a hammer & chisel is that it's hard to be precise. It's not impossible, but it's definitely a skill requiring mastery.

If we expand the scope a little and include ceramics - then yes, we did need quite a bit of water.

Brick, Clay, Cement, etc - they were all good alternatives to chiseling stone to get a very hard, stone-like material in a very specific shape, and they all require good amounts of water.

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grues-dinner
44 minutes ago
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These days, with high-power cutting tools also for cooling. If you have a 50 HP saw, that energy has to go somewhere, and it doesn't all go into the dust and get carried away. If carbide blades get too hot, the solder melts and the brazed inserts fall out, and for steel, carbide and diamonds, the hotter they get the softer they get and and the faster the tool wears.

And other than the cost of the tools, there is one thing harder to drill than a rock, and that's a rock with the previous drill bit's carbide insert stuck at the bottom of the hole!

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bookofjoe
1 hour ago
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And, WAY back in the day, other rocks.

>The models estimated that Oldowan stone tools originated 2.617-2.644 million years ago, 36,000 to 63,000 years earlier than current evidence. The Acheulean’s origin was pushed back further by at least 55,000 years to 1.815-1.823 million years ago.

https://www.kent.ac.uk/news/science/28246/the-worlds-earlies...

>Statistical inference of earlier origins for the first flaked stone technologies

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472...

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b00ty4breakfast
2 hours ago
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If there were an evolutionary advantage for more things to being in an arid region over being in a place with abundant, easily accessible water, I reckon the niche would have been filled. the natural world isn't really "interested", for lack of a better term, in maximal efficiency outside the context of following the path of least resistance in any given domain. Lightning might strike your chimney even tho there's a giant metal tower 300 feet in the air a quarter mile down the road that appears to be a much better path to ground.
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loudmax
1 hour ago
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There is plenty of natural selection pressure on not being eaten. If a mold or something could evolve to live off of a dry atmosphere plus sunlight and whatever minerals it can eek out of rocks, it could blanket millions of square kilometers of desert. Presumably other living things would find it hard to digest because its protein and chemical structures are so different. Nature is constantly finding weird little niches at the edge of sustainability. Waterless deserts should present an enormous opportunity for something to fill, but it hasn't happened.
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bookofjoe
50 minutes ago
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Except in science fiction (so far); see, for example, "Dragon's Egg," Robert L. Forward's superb 1980 novel of life on a neutron star with surface gravity 67 billion times that of Earth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon%27s_Egg

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ViscountPenguin
3 hours ago
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Cacti aswell, mostly thrive because of desert floods. They've evolved to quickly suck up as much water as they can, then they use a special acidic form of photosynthesis to make it last as long as possible.

Different desert plants use similar ideas, the Aussie outback for example blooms for about a month after a given flood, reproduces, then dies out near completely except around the occasional waterhole.

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highfrequency
3 hours ago
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More counterintuitively: why hasn't any major bacteria evolved to feast on lipids like oils? Much denser source of energy than desert dirt.
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boilerupnc
49 minutes ago
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Related good read[0] - “I contain Multitudes”

[0] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27213168-i-contain-multi...

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meindnoch
3 hours ago
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jxf
2 hours ago
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There are many such bacteria, some of which are living in and on your skin right now.
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bob1029
6 hours ago
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Managing moisture levels is probably the #1 way to control microbial activity.

You see the exact same idea in HVAC - if you can keep the relative humidity below 50%, mold growth becomes nearly impossible.

In laundry care, the dryer does all of the sanitizing action.

Etc.

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computerphage
1 hour ago
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Why is it relative humidity that matters here instead of absolute humidity?
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stinos
4 hours ago
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In the end drying grass to create hay is also the same principle: dry enough (say < 15% water) and it doesn't do much at all, being pretty dead. Higher and you get all kinds of life having its go at it.
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cjrp
28 minutes ago
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> Higher and you get all kinds of life having its go at it.

Yep, and you end up with silage if it's stored anaerobically.

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bratwurst3000
2 hours ago
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i grow weed( legal here) and its the same. last two weeks moisture and temp down because of fungi. and when harvesting the goal is getting the humidity of the buds down to 12% fast. the difference is so obviuos. sometimes in the summer heat and humidity are out of controll and thats when buds rotten :/
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YeGoblynQueenne
5 hours ago
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>> This doesn't mean that honey can withstand all challenges to freshness. Once a jar of honey is open, its surface is being regularly exposed to the air, and dipping licked spoons in will bring bacteria and moisture that weren't there when the jar was sealed.

I have plenty of observational, empirical data that contradicts this apparently theoretical statement. Not just licked spoons but breakfast knives with bits of toasted bread and peanut/butter, Greek yogurt, French moldy goat's cheese, bits of tart, croisssants or other confectionary, etc. All of those can be detected in significant concentrations in my honey jars. Not to mention that simply screwing a lid on an already-opened jar doesn't quite seal it, certainly not firmly enough to cut off the oxygen from it.

Yet I have never known honey to spoil. I mean it's quite remarkable. I think I have seen honey that has stayed at the bottom of a jar for years and it just doesn't go bad. I wouldn't eat it, because it tends to look a bit bleugh, but it won't go off (and that's how it ends up staying in the jar for so long).

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n4r9
1 hour ago
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Likewise. For some reason the article ignores the raft of antibacterial compounds found in honey:

> Various components contribute to the antibacterial efficacy of honey: the sugar content; polyphenol compounds; hydrogen peroxide; 1,2-dicarbonyl compounds; and bee defensin-1. All of these elements are present at different concentrations depending on the source of nectar, bee type, and storage. These components work synergistically, allowing honey to be potent against a variety of microorganisms including multidrug resistant bacteria and modulate their resistance to antimicrobial agents.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8071826/

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RataNova
5 hours ago
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My honey jars basically turn into forensic time capsules of breakfast past, and still nothing grows
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amelius
4 hours ago
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But the same holds for my sugar jar.
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xandrius
5 hours ago
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Definitely give a little love to your honey jars, it does sound like the relationship is quite one-directional. Even cleaning the spoon/knife before interacting with the jar would increase the long-term stability of the relationship and it's just a nice thing to do for a SO.
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YeGoblynQueenne
5 hours ago
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Indeed it is. I'm not the one not cleaning the utensils before dipping them in btw ;)
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pyman
5 hours ago
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> toasted bread and peanut/butter, Greek yogurt, French moldy goat's cheese, bits of tart, croisssants or other confectionary

You turned your kitchen into a bed and breakfast, though you make it sound like a microbiology lab :)

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bjelkeman-again
16 hours ago
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The story misses that lactic acid bacteria are fairly common in honey and seem to be out competing other bacteria and have anti microbial effects.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7949542/

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Peteragain
6 hours ago
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I've recently been embracing the idea of co-evolutionary pressure. Reading the article I thought that if it was just the dryness, bacteria would have evolved to tap such a rich energy source. Hence the biology of bees must have something to do with the preservative nature of honey. I'm feeling vindicated!
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bob1029
4 hours ago
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I think co-evolution should be investigated for encoder-decoder architecture training.

The idea being that you pair multiple decoders with each encoder, and multiple encoders with each decoder (randomly sample if large populations). The selective pressure is a feedback loop between the encoder and decoder populations that requires the members to produce and interpret the latent vector as well as possible. In theory, this creates a form of generalization pressure wherein the encoders and decoders must perform well with a wide range of possible up/down stream states. I think with large enough populations, this could be robust to premature convergence and overfitting.

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bux93
3 hours ago
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I remember playing around with RapidMiner about 10 years ago and it had a hyper parameter optimizing primitive that uses evolutionary search. It was quite pleasing. RapidMiner doesn't do any of the modern stuff though. Asking chatgpt turns up mostly pretty old (abandoned) projects from around 2017.
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cypherpunks01
13 hours ago
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This article is missing what I think is a pretty important PSA on the topic of bacteria in honey:

Honey commonly contains small amounts of the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium botulinum, which causes botulism.

This is why you should not feed honey to infants, because their immune systems cannot safely handle any amount of it yet. Even though the levels apparently are small enough for the rest of humans to consume worry-free.

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johncole
11 hours ago
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I remember having small kids we took this very seriously. I always wondered if this was just another overprotective order, or could really be an issue.
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loeg
11 hours ago
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https://parentdata.org/honey-botulism-babies/

> Infantile botulism is extremely rare. There are an estimated 100 cases per year in the U.S., among approximately 4 million children in the age range under 1. That’s a risk of 1 in 40,000. This is somewhat less likely than the chance of visiting the ER for a blanket-related injury in a given year (yes, I looked that up, and I do think it’s a good comparison).

> ... In an estimated 20% of cases — that’s about 20 cases a year — honey is one of the exposures. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the botulism actually came from honey; it’s just that because we know the spores can live in honey … it seems possible.

> At best, this suggests that by avoiding honey, you could lower the risk of infantile botulism from 1 in 40,000 to 1 in 50,000.

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wtvanhest
10 hours ago
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I don’t think these probabilities are correct. Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times.

In an extreme example… only 20 parents fed their kids honey and 20 kids contracted botulism.

That would be a 100% risk. Obviously in real life it’s not 100% of kids, but still could be a meaningful percentage and likely higher than 1 in 50,000 for babies that eat honey.

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furyofantares
1 hour ago
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> Every parent is told not to feed their under 1 year olds honey, many times.

Huh, I think this might be my first time hearing it.

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elmomle
8 hours ago
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It is correct. They are considering the most extreme case; in the most extreme case, no non-botulism-infected infants eat honey, and honey was the cause of botulism for those 20 infants.

If that is so, then completely removing honey exposure for infants would mean that 80 rather than 100 infants get botulism poisoning.

So the new probability of contracting botulism is (80 / 100) * (old probability), and (80 / 100) * (1 / 40000) = 1 / 50000.

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yorwba
8 hours ago
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There are no errors in the calculation, but it's wrong anyways because it calculates the answer to the wrong question. "At best" suggests this is the largest possible effect, but it is the smallest possible. To get an upper bound estimate on the usefulness of avoiding honey, you would need to know how many parents of 1-year-olds are avoiding honey.
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mkbkn
7 hours ago
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Feeding honey to newborn babies is a common practice in India. Sometimes it's their first ever food.
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meindnoch
2 hours ago
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Yeah, and their infant mortality is on par with Sub-Saharan Africa.

"The second most common prelacteal feed is honey, a delicious natural sweetener. Numerous studies [29,30] have shown that the ingestion of honey under one year of age is linked with infant botulism, a disease that results in a blockade of voluntary motor and autonomic functions. Apart from this, other prelacteal feeds get contaminated due to unhygienic environment, especially in rural India and in urban slums, resulting in infantile diarrhea. Thus, a wide range of prelacteal feeds and the introduction of early supplements result in recurrent diarrhea with multiple illness finally ending lives because of inaccessibility and unaffordibility of treatment and delayed or inappropriate care seeking behavior."

Rohini Ghosh - Child mortality in India: a complex situation (https://doi.org/10.1007/s12519-012-0331-y)

The paper lists a bunch of other traditional practices that have deleterious effects on the infants' health, such as putting unsanitary herbal concoctions on the babies navel while it's still healing, etc.

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mrweasel
5 hours ago
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We waited until our kid was four, just to be safe, but it's was also honey from our own bees, so I somehow felt it less safe.

Kid went full Winnie-the-Pooh on the jar.

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Analemma_
10 hours ago
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I'm not sure that number is meaningful without knowing how many parents are giving their infants honey. Granted I'm in a high-income, high-education area, but at least in my bubble, "don't give babies honey" seems to be common knowledge, so it's possible there are relatively few instances and a high percentage result in complications.
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loeg
8 hours ago
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I think the rate was similar before we told parents not to give their infants honey. So we sort of have an A/B comparison.

> Some people have pointed out that botulism cases haven’t fallen over time despite parents being told not to give kids honey.

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tayo42
9 hours ago
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Whole food crunchy Instagram grifters push that infants should eat honey

Though tbh do people really eat that much honey? I only have some in my kitchen to have with tea when I have a cold. Other then that I almost never use it.

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cjrp
26 minutes ago
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No honey with greek yoghurt?
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alwa
5 hours ago
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Oh man buttered toast with honey... English muffins... But most controversially, and most deliciously, it dresses up a pizza something lovely...

For me the shift happened when I stopped thinking of it as a sweetener for liquids and started thinking about it as a condiment to deploy conservatively but frequently.

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borski
5 hours ago
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Hot honey on pizza is the BEST
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coldtea
5 hours ago
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The United States is the second largest honey consumer behind China according to the latest data available from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) in 2019. In 2021, consumption increased 8 percent from the previous year. Between 1991 to 2021, the average rate of growth is 10.7 million pounds per year. This translates to about 1.9 pounds per capita of honey consumption in 2021 compared with 1.2 pounds per capita in the early 1990s.
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borski
5 hours ago
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Yes. I literally collect different honey (including from my own hives) and my love of it is very strong.

And no, I don’t have diabetes yet. I’m not insane about it, but I do have it frequently.

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tharkun__
6 hours ago
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Breakfast buns go well with honey. Often switched up with jam every few days. Also pancakes and waffles are great with honey from time to time when I'm tired of maple syrup. Jam works too.
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bravesoul2
9 hours ago
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A truncated version of Bayes used here:

A=Infantile botulism

B=Kid eats honey

P(A|!B) = P(A) * (1 - P(B|A))

Not sure it is correct!

The ACX signature says:

P(A|B) = [P(A)*P(B|A)]/P(B)

So

P(A|!B) = [P(A)*P(!B|A)]/P(!B)

= (1/40000) * .8 / ???

??? Is very small though if people take the medical advice.

Their number assumes nobody follows the advice!

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littlestymaar
8 hours ago
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Honey contains spores of Clostridium botulinum, not live bacteria. And as such, honey cannot in itself cause botulism.

But the intestinal microbiot of infants (not their immune system) is not necessarily developed enough, and as such Clostridium botulinum can colonize their intestine (it strives in anaerobic environment) and then they can develop a special kind of botulism where the toxin is actually produced in their own body (as opposed to ingested, like in regular botulism).

It's not the only way a child can stumble upon the bacteria's spore though.

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ByteDrifter
10 hours ago
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When my kid was under one year old, we were especially careful about this we didn’t let her have even a tiny bit of honey. It really drove home the idea that everything has two sides. Honey can sit on a shelf for years without spoiling, but it can still be dangerous for the most vulnerable. It’s a reminder that just because something is natural and long lasting doesn’t mean it’s safe for everyone.
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RataNova
5 hours ago
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It's one of those things where honey is both a wonder of nature and a reminder that biology doesn’t always play nice with everyone
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repeekad
12 hours ago
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same with immunocompromised folks, though all that only applies to raw honey; pasteurized honey is more common in grocery stores and totally safe
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sl-1
6 hours ago
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In Finland honey is rarely pasteurized. It is seen as a quality defect if honey is heated after extraction from the hive. Heating is thought to destroy some of the beneficial compounds in honey.

Similarly one should not put honey to too hot tea if one wants the benefits instead of just sugar.

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AbortedLaunch
10 hours ago
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I would not expect this to make a difference as pasteurization does not inactivate Clostridium endospores.
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bregma
3 hours ago
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Pasteurization would also destroy the delicate honey taste. It takes almost nothing to do that, and heating honey above about 40 C even for 30 seconds will kill any honeyness and all you have left is the sweet.

I'll bet only the imported Chinese honey is pasteurized on the supermarket shelf. Most of that goes to industrial use anyway.

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hnfong
7 hours ago
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Spores of Clostridium botulinum require temperatures way above boiling point to destroy. Pasteurization doesn't do anything to them.
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cess11
8 hours ago
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It's pasteurised to stop you from making mead, not because it does anything to Clostridium spores.
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abcd_f
4 hours ago
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Pasteurization doesn't in any way prevent honey from remaining fermentable.
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cess11
3 hours ago
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OK. So?
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kragen
16 hours ago
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This story can be summarized as "Low water activity and low pH keep honey fresh permanently." The other 14 paragraphs are just filler. Moreover, even that summary is factually incorrect; low water activity and low pH don't come close to explaining honey's astounding shelf life, which amounts to centuries in many cases.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Preservation in particular mentions gluconic acid and hydrogen peroxide produced by the bees' glucose oxidase, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey#Medical_use_and_research also mentions its content of methylglyoxal, which damages DNA and cross-links proteins somewhat like formaldehyde, thus killing microorganisms; mãnuka honey is required to contain at least 85mg/kg of methylglyoxal, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81nuka_honey. I suspect that there is a great deal more research on the topic.

It's disappointing to see such a low-quality article on the BBC website; I generally regard the BBC as a reliable source.

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owenversteeg
12 hours ago
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It'd be fascinating if something like methylglyoxal was responsible, but I doubt it. Molasses also has an extremely long shelf life, and it doesn't have any of honey's exotic constituents. I would bet it mostly comes down to water content and pH (and a sturdy, sealed container.)

Personally, I would bet that certain wines have a longer shelf life than honey. The evidence for honey's stability on extreme time scales is scanty, lots of very poor quality sources and hearsay. Meanwhile, we have countless wines that are hundreds of years old and in excellent shape. It only takes a fairly small amount of degradation of one small component of honey to taste "off", and many of the components of honey are in their non-oxidized, non-heat damaged states. Contrast that with a wine such as Madeira, where the entire wine is intentionally heat-damaged and oxidized to produce the final product. I would put my money on the Madeira any day.

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kragen
11 hours ago
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Can you make molasses bandages to speed wound healing, though? Honey really seems to have antimicrobial properties that go way beyond just low water activity and low pH, and in particular the peroxide production seems to be important.

It does seem plausible that some wines might last longer than honey.

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owenversteeg
11 hours ago
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After doing some more reading, I think you might be right. I've been looking at various sugary solutions such as molasses and it seems that it's not uncommon for them to be sold with mold inhibitors such as propanoic acid. I suspect the hydrogen peroxide might play a role, but it's not very stable, I wonder how long it lasts in the honey.

I'm still putting my money on the wine as far as long term storage goes, but I think honey might have a solid second place above any other common foods. I've been trying to find others that might last a while but obviously most results these days are contentless slop or straight up fabrications. I did find one report of Irish chef Kevin Thornton trying 4,000 year old butter, unfortunately he described it as "rancid": https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p03yf4kj

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kragen
10 hours ago
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I didn't know that about molasses! It wouldn't be surprising actually if bees were synthesizing specifically propanoate to add to the honey and that nobody had noticed yet. But there are probably other molecules that would work at lower doses that they might use instead.
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vlovich123
15 hours ago
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Are you sure this isn’t just the Gell-Mann effect? It sounds like you’re probably better informed about this than the typical person and might be expecting a lot more detail than a newspaper would be endeavoring to try to convey.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect

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positr0n
10 hours ago
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Isn’t the entire point of the Gell Man amnesia effect that all news is low quality, you just only realize it for topics you know a lot about?

And OP evidently knows a lot about honey :)

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jagged-chisel
15 hours ago
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I think the point is that the article is conveying too much of the wrong kind of details.
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kragen
15 hours ago
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vlovich123 may be correct that I am giving the BBC too much credit in general. But I don't think I'm especially well-informed; I'd never heard of methylglyoxal before looking this up in Wikipedia.

I agree that its focus is somewhat wrong. I don't think that the backgrounder on the importance of food preservation is completely without value. It's just that it's already fairly well known that food rots and why.

My larger objection, though, is that there are important, well-established reasons for honey to be far less perishable than other substances of similar water activity and pH, and the article does not mention them even briefly. I think it's fine to have lots of the wrong kind of details, but it's not fine to omit the right ones.

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bookofjoe
39 minutes ago
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>I think it's fine to have lots of the wrong kind of details, but it's not fine to omit the right ones.

Who decides which are "wrong" and which are "right?"

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gerdesj
14 hours ago
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"which amounts to centuries in many cases."

Pretty sure I read about honey found in a Pharaoh's tomb - that's millennia, not centuries.

Quick search:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-science-be...

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kragen
14 hours ago
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I edited "millennia" into "centuries" in my comment above because the Wikipedia article claimed those claims didn't pan out:

> (However, no edible honey has been found in Egyptian tombs; all such cases have been proven to be other substances or only chemical traces.[29])

...but the citation is from 01975.

The Smithsonian page is a great link! It mentions that the pH of honey is 3–4.5 (another crucial fact omitted from the BBC article) and mentions the peroxide, but not the methylglyoxal.

The Smithsonian article contains this link:

> Modern archeologists, excavating ancient Egyptian tombs, have often found something unexpected amongst the tombs’ artifacts: pots of honey, thousands of years old, and yet still preserved

which goes to a Google Books page I can't see (perhaps because I'm in Argentina) of a book from 02006 that is apparently about beekeeping, not archaeology, called "Letters from the Hive", published by Random House Children's Books.

The copy of the book that I've been able to get does talk extensively about the uses of honey in ancient Egypt, but, unless I missed it, doesn't mention pots of honey being found in tombs at all.

Even if so, it's unclear whether the book would have evidence posterior to Wikipedia's 01975 citation; it isn't the kind of book that cites its sources.

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gerdesj
13 hours ago
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I'm so sorry but I can't help myself: 01975 is the dialling code for somewhere in Aberdeenshire!

WP: "(However, no edible honey has been found in Egyptian tombs; all such cases have been proven to be other substances or only chemical traces.[29])"

[29] is https://gwern.net/doc/history/1975-leek.pdf - this does not look like a peer reviewed paper. They do look to be reputable and they refute some rubbish documented cases of ancient honey but not all of them.

I'm going to call out the WP article as being factually wanting on that point.

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kragen
13 hours ago
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Ha, I had no idea about Aberdeenshire!

I agree that in 01975 peer review was not a given, but it does seem to be academic work, as opposed to a children's book.

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bookofjoe
37 minutes ago
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gwern FTW!
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jfengel
13 hours ago
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I don't see why anything other than low water and pH are necessary. Stories about ultra long lasting honey come from the desert, which will dessicate it further.

(The stories about pyramid honey always imply that it's fresh and liquid. It's not. It's dried out and usually completely crystallized.)

There may be other effects on top of that, but if you made a sucrose solution thick enough it too will last forever.

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kragen
13 hours ago
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If you can get an aqueous solution of solids to completely crystallize (and sucrose does like to crystallize), it won't support microorganisms, but if it doesn't crystallize, it will have a critical "deliquescence relative humidity". When the relative humidity of the air is above the DRH†, the solution absorbs water from the air rather than giving up water to the air, and if there are crystals in it, they tend to shrink instead of growing.

Different solutes have different DRHs, but there are many of them whose affinity for water is so strong that their DRH is so low that under normal circumstances they never completely dry out. Some of them are commonly used as desiccants, such as lye, calcium chloride, and magnesium chloride. In general, mixing solutes tends to impede crystallization, so more heterogeneous mixtures like honey tend to have lower DRH than more homogeneous mixtures like pure sucrose.

(This is an engineering reason to add something like lemon juice when you make simple syrup: the citrate hydrolyzes some of the sucrose into glucose and fructose, greatly impeding crystallization and greatly improving your chances of having a pourable syrup when you want to use it next month.)

Under many circumstances, honey will eventually absorb enough water from the air by this mechanism to permit the growth of yeasts and bacteria. But it takes a remarkably long time.

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† The DRH does vary with temperature, but in most cases only slightly over the human-survivable range, so you can say "CaCl₂ has a DRH of about 40%" and be correct enough for many purposes.

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RataNova
5 hours ago
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Pretty wild how bees basically invented a biochemical preservation system thousands of years before we had food science labs
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filterfish
5 hours ago
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Millions of years!
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pyman
5 hours ago
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The fact that they navigate by memorising visual landmarks like trees, buildings, and flowers to recognise familiar routes is unbelievable
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mr_toad
38 minutes ago
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I think the most interesting thing about them is that they can communicate the location of flowers to other bees.
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jsilence
3 hours ago
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Amazing what well trained small neural networks can achieve.
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__mharrison__
13 hours ago
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Recently went through first aid training and the instructor claimed putting honey on wounds would help them heal faster.

(Sample size 1) I tried it on myself and a wound that was stubborn about healing was better very quickly.

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bookofjoe
36 minutes ago
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>Honey in wound healing: An updated review

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8496555/

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filterfish
10 hours ago
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I had a planter wart surgically removed which they packed with Manuka honey and because it's a deep open wound it needs to heal from the inside. I changed the dressing and repacked it every few days for weeks and the wound was absolutely pristine ever time.

I live in the tropics where people die because due to infection which makes it even more interesting that they use honey.

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fsckboy
8 hours ago
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plantar wart. all wart removals should heal pristinely, warts are on only the outermost layers of skin above where scarring occurs.
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filterfish
5 hours ago
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The wound was about 6mm deep on my heel and took months to heal properly. And yes I did check those homophones :-)

And thanks for the other homophone correction!

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octo888
3 hours ago
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Surgical wart removal can involve some pretty deep incisions and month long recovery. Scars aren't unheard of as I understand it

(And it can be futile ! The wart can easily come back)

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nullwarp
11 hours ago
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I've had great success with using propolis[0] on burns and wounds. Definitely anecdotal but the ones I've used it on have definitely healed faster.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propolis

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filterfish
9 hours ago
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carabiner
12 hours ago
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cryptonector
17 hours ago
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Really high sugar concentrations will pop the cells of any simple organisms.
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kragen
16 hours ago
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No, low. High sugar concentrations mean low water activity, which osmotically pumps water out of cells, not into them, so they shrivel rather than popping.
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cryptonector
8 hours ago
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Thanks.
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Terr_
16 hours ago
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I like to imagine it as humans stranded in a strange land where all the geography is dry cake. And only dry cake.
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xandrius
5 hours ago
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I definitely have been in some countries where their desserts felt from a strange land indeed: everything dried :'(. I need moist.
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xattt
16 hours ago
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</article>
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giantg2
16 hours ago
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The real secret is osmotic pressure.
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Daisywh
10 hours ago
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I’d be curious to see if similar principles could be applied to non food preservation. Nature’s solutions often scale better than synthetic ones, especially when stability over long timeframes is needed.
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ethan_smith
3 hours ago
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Honey's hydrogen peroxide production and hygroscopic properties have already inspired antimicrobial coatings for medical devices and water-resistant biomaterials for tissue engineering.
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RataNova
5 hours ago
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Imagine a honey-inspired environment for stabilizing sensitive compounds or preserving biological samples without refrigeration
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comrade1234
14 hours ago
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Osmotic pressure? Ok I'll read the article.
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mhb
16 hours ago
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Similarly, chocolate.
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dylan604
16 hours ago
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You can take honey that has crystalized and set it in sunlight to "melt" back into the gooey goodness, but you can't do that to chocolate that has that white powdery stuff on it.
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mhb
16 hours ago
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Right. Once the undesirable crystals in chocolate have formed it has to be re-tempered to get the desirable ones to dominate. But it hasn't spoiled.
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xandrius
2 hours ago
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The white stuff is just fat or sugar blooming, so you can totally melt down chocolate and be good to go.
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quibono
15 hours ago
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I've often wondered about this - is sunlight really all that's needed?
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liquidpele
15 hours ago
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Heat is needed, not sunlight.
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bdamm
14 hours ago
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You can zap it in the microwave for 10-15 seconds, but I always feel terribly guilty for some inexplicable reason.
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jfengel
13 hours ago
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If you're looking to have a reason.... That's probably going to over-heat the honey, which comes at a cost to flavor.

But your grocery store honey is already pasteurized. That's more controlled than your microwave, so if you were looking to feel guilty about something, save it for when your neighbor gives you some from her hive next door.

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tekla
14 hours ago
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Bloom isn't spoilage.
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LandR
6 hours ago
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Is it eatable though ?

ANytime I've had chocolate that has the white stuff I've binned it. Even if it isn't spoiled, doesn't it taste bad ?

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mhb
46 minutes ago
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No. It doesn't taste bad, but the texture might not be as good.
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xandrius
2 hours ago
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White stuff is just either fat or sugar bloom, due to changes of temperature.

Not harmful. It's like the white "powder" on hard cheeses, which is just calcium crystalizing over time. Totally safe.

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abcd_f
4 hours ago
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It's just fat.
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montakaoh
8 hours ago
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reminder that there's a lot of fake honey that gets put on shelf out there! probably doesn't last as long either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej6WVP7cxXQ
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