What’s a good brand for IP cameras? What’s the best, in terms of open source support and reliability?
I need a mix of PoE indoor and outdoor cameras. 15 outdoor/10 indoor. Cost isn't a factor, I need something reliable.
I have 5 outdoor and 6 indoor cameras. They all support PoE power; for some of the internal ones I'm using PoE, others I got an injector & wifi dongle.
They'll talk to basically anything, the outdoor ones have handled several years of every possible kind of weather. I had one camera that died a week after it arrived; the RMA process w/ Axis was smooth and easy.
Their support windows are what you'd expect from a company whose primary customer base is commercial rather than consumer: IIRC they emailed me a year or two ago to warn me that they'll no longer be shipping software updates for my outdoor cams starting in 2030.
Best-case scenario it'll call back to the mothership, worst-case scenario it'll turn into a backdoor for your entire network and you'll start receiving ransomware threats with awkward photos/videos attached to them.
Honestly, I can kinda understand having outdoor cameras, if you're in a high crime area - but I just can't empathise with folks who feel more secure after putting indoor cameras in their own home.
thought this was going down a P Diddy route there for a second
Also, we use them for kids and cats - keep and eye and find out what happened. In fact for our one cat we heard a sound and we were able to see she fell off a desk and was hurt. So we could help her immediately.
Then they don't even realize the real camera isn't visible. It's next to that big obvious one.
Same with their doorbell cam, proprietary hardware or cloud subscription.
I bought 2 reolink cameras for the same price, they work with everything, can trigger external devices where there's motion, and integrate well with whatever else you have around. The reviews that did direct comparisons didn't rate ubiquiti well.
Unlike the Ubiquiti APs that just need a java program they give you to run somewhere and not even all the time, just when you need to make config changes.
Hikvision has probably been the best "all-around" camera, but they may be subject to import restrictions.
Axis is very good (but un-cheap). Bosch is crappy (and also un-cheap).
I have a Dahua, which is quite good. I also have a pretty good Panasonic.
Funnily enough, probably the most reliable camera that I have, is also the cheapest. It's a $40 FLIR "eyeball" camera (not an IR camera -it's an OEM Chinese camera that several manufacturers rebrand).
A bunch of my cameras are obviously just rebrands of the same cheap crap. The software is abominable.
yeah they have a login wall without a reflash, but most of them do -- but the hardware isn't bad and you can keep it local after setup.
That said -- yes : hikvision is the de-facto generic IPcam without issues. Most CCTV softwares are built around hikvision cameras and firmwares as generics.
(But they are on a VLAN without internet access.)
We got the Duo Floodlight PoE for reference.
Ended up with a pair of reolinks for $120, the spec was a bit less, but I got two cameras. I pointed them from the top of my garage door to both sides of the car, which doubly illuminated the driveway. The red illumination rings on the cameras were easy to spot from the sidewalk, hopefully preventing another attempt. The image quality was great, color during the day, B&W after dark. Ended up using it surprisingly often. Deliveries, kid pickup/drop off, mailman, identifying whatever big truck was visiting our dead end street, and ended up seeing more wildlife than I expected. Even at night I could clearly see the black seat belts inside a black car with a black interior.
I run a separate network for the camera so they can't talk to anything buy my server, so I'm not particularly worried about their network security and I like that the cameras are PoE and not wifi. Sure open source would be better, axis is decent on that front. They run a linux distro, you can ssh in, and even modify the linux distro with an overlap to customize it however you want.
Excellent in Lowlight and has a configurable floodlight.
Also mega-wide field of view
Don't consider at all: All non-OEM Chinese stuff (1 trillion brands, way too many to list, including the usual consumer garbage that you might find in a store like Reolink etc.)
Consider if cost turns out to be a factor: The two major Chinese OEMs, Hikvision and Dahua.
Note: All Chinese OEMs are obviously implicated in the Chinese surveillance state. Obviously. A lot of "major" brands are OEMed by these two, even ones you might not expect. For example, much of Panasonic stuff is rebadged Dahua. Basically 90% of any CCTV camera Made in China comes from either Dahua or Hik, the lesser brands just mostly get (or rather, choose) the bargain-bin hardware with monkey-model firmware and of course no FW updates ever.
If cost really isn't a factor: Bosch, Axis, Dallmeier, Mobotix
Note: Most of these you cannot buy directly, and the vendor won't talk to you.
> What’s the best, in terms of open source support and reliability?
These are found at completely opposite ends of the spectrum. All good CCTVs cameras use signed and more-or-less well encrypted firmware, even cross-flashing isn't much of a thing.
I see two major problems buying from these companies.
The first is the practical risk that they will deliberately spy on you or just (through poor software quality) make it possible for others to do so. And yeah, putting them in a (V)LAN that can't access the Internet seems more or less sufficient. In theory they could exploit your browser in some way but I don't worry about this too much.
The second is the moral injury from buying from a company that actively participates in the Uyghur genocide. Not just "making cameras that the Chinese government buys through a retailer" but "writing software specifically to identify Uyghur ethnic features" [1] and/or "contracting with the Chinese government to install cameras at internment camps". [2] And there's no simply VLAN configuration that will wipe the blood off your hands.
They're nice cameras especially for the price, and I still use some I bought before I knew about this, but I can't bring myself to buy more or recommend others do so.
fwiw, I'm not aware of any evidence Reolink has participated in this, despite being a Chinese company. I try to stay away from Dahua, Hikvision, and Uniview, which is harder to do than it sounds because they make cameras sold under many brand names.
[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/world/chinese-tech-patents-t...
Usually we go for Geovision (still around $300 - $800) or Axis (little higher).
I'm going to look at all the links in the comments in this post to see if I can find things which are: better documented, more affordable, and easier to integrate.
If Chinese brands don’t scare you: Hikvision is very good allarounder, Milesight, Uniview (UNV), Vivotek - good too
Dahua cheap but still usable
All other - don’t even bother
> https://github.com/themactep/thingino-firmware
Nice, it actually supports several popular Amazon US "no-name" brands, including Imou and Wansview! (Plus, several mainstream Eufy, TP-Link and Wyze cameras are supported by thingino as well.) Seems to be more user-friendly than OpenIPC, too.
More info is at my installers repo https://github.com/wltechblog/thingino-installers or my YT channel (WLTechBlog)
FUD misinformation and lies from manufacturers.
Also, because many of these brands are no-name, you get the inverse volume discounts — you can get 1 camera for less per-unit cost compared to buying 2 or more.
Starting a business may make more sense if you're willing to go directly to the manufacturer, and have the manufacturer flash the firmware directly at the factory. Even then, why would people buy from you at $30 when they can buy an encumbered version for $15 and follow a few instructions?
Do you know if Wansview Q5 can be installed easily or not? I think it's one of the only cams on the thingino list that's available in the US with super-fast Amazon FBA shipping for under $20 USD and with lots of stock.
Oh, wait, Cinnado D1 is only $14.99! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CBBT5RMP
That's cheaper than Wansview Q5! (Unless the Woot deal returns.)
Frigate is a reasonably immature project but it is getting better with each release. Blue Iris is adored but it does have a Windows requirement so that might disqualify it for you.
I love how the front page doesn't scream SOCs/SOMs to you and is just straight up here's the compatible cameras with pictures (with some SOM info below).
Edit: But they have a list of product names, where they support installation of Thingino: https://github.com/themactep/thingino-firmware/blob/master/d...
Good list. Happy to see Imou and Wansview on the list, these "unknown" brands have been selling directly on Amazon US for a while now:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Wansview/page/1E1F86AB-C01A-45...
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Imou/page/73EC8A3D-1E78-42C5-8...
The OpenIPC project is completely open wherever possible, but it allows the use of various streamers Divinus/Majestic/Mini/Venc/other and various binary drivers and libraries if the chip manufacturer does not provide open source code.
The Divinus streamer is a great alternative to Majestic and it is open and also part of the OpenIPC ecosystem - https://github.com/openipc/divinus
Our streamer (prudynt-t) communicates with those blocks to handle settings, overlays, etc and receives the pre-processed image/video/audio data, packages it up for rtsp//mjpeg/etc, and handles client connections, motion sending, day/night vision, etc.
This is the status quo for ip cameras regardless of vendor!
We have a couple devices that support 5ghz, but I don't think any of them are on my favorites list. I picked up a Wansview G6 which is a light bulb format cam, my least favorite, but it was our first dual band device. More to follow!
Is there a comparison table which devices have how much RAM etc?
BTW, do you know if Amcrest ASH21 are supported? They look identical to Imou Ranger 2 from the front, although Amcrest does have an RJ45 in the back, whereas Ranger 2 possible doesn't?
If you don't see a specific device on our site, we either haven't seen one yet or we know it's not compatible. We rely on users to find new devices in the wild that we can port to, if you see an Ingenic chip in a cam not on the site let us know!
I'm NOT exactly sure on the exact version, because 2 different versions exist on Amazon, 3MP/2019 and 5MP/2024, in 2 colors each, but the older 3MP version is available for under $20.00 USD with FBA:
https://www.amazon.com/stores/Wansview/page/1E1F86AB-C01A-45...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QKXM2D3 — $16.14 FBA for black 3MP Q5 Wansview
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QKWPT8J — $19.78 FBA for white 3MP Q5 Wansview
It's also been on sale at $9.99 on Woot a few months ago, but sold out.
https://electronics.woot.com/offers/wansview-2k-ip-security-...
EDIT: looks like the cheapest one in the US is actually Cinnado D1 2k, it's under $14.99 on Amazon.
https://github.com/wltechblog/thingino-installers/tree/main/...
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CBBT5RMP — ≤$14.99 FBA for Cinnado D1
It looks like right now it's available for 14.99 less the 25% promo code, that's $11.25 USD shipped, for OSS hardware? Niiice!
PTZ works great although none of these devices actually HAVE a zoom apability.
[1] - https://github.com/wltechblog/thingino-installers/tree/main/...
update seems like it's software for a camera module. Now I have to figure how to match that with cameras or how to connect it to my raspberry pi
That said it's really hard to make long term supportable open source camera software/firmware. And when picking cameras it is even harder because the market as it stands now does not let you have it all. You need to pick what facets you really care about.
Also keep in mind even the above code is not really opensource all the way: I still had to load the driver binaries. Not sure that source will ever be released. The kernel is also old as heck.
What I do feel good about though is saving these old cameras from the dumpster if Wyze ever stops supporting them. The firmware works for simple cases: just load it up and you can start curl'ing frames. I used it in scripts to put together timelapse videos with ffmpeg. No need to screw around with authentication, phones apps, email, etc.
Having read https://github.com/openmiko/openmiko/blob/master/doc/develop... -- is there anywhere that you document how you learned to do this / how you got started with this project?
I would love to find a "zero to hello world, from scratch" type tutorial for putting custom firmware on a camera not supported by one of the existing projects (or a similar writeup detailing how one of these projects got started in the first place).
Compared to when I last looked ~ a year ago... yeah, the list certainly has gotten longer.
For anybody else that clicks, all of the outdoor cameras are all WiFi based, though. The dream of "at least 2K, PTZ, PoE and rain-proof" is still a pipe-dream :(.
I am unaware of how good those typical $20 cameras are. Maybe they are decent. But for instance some of the Hikvision ones with 8MP sensors support 4K@25 fps.
I think that it would be great if there would be an open source firmware for higher-end cameras like those.
We're also focused mostly on the less expensive models, because they're obviously within reach for a lot more folks but also they're almost always subsidized by the expectation that a discounted purchase price is made up for by the vendor's cloud subscription. You can get a LOT of great camera models for a low price.
I will say that there is a story about Hikvision that would likely steer most folks away from their brand.. it's bad enough that Google won't index it... With that said, I don't believe anyone should be trusting any third party with their video data in the first place...
Of course. No one is suggesting that storing video data from cameras in a cloud system over which the owner has no oversight and no control is reasonable.
I was mostly interested in what kind of image quality can an end user expect to get from a camera with open source firmware.
The mainstream brands like Hikvision had cameras with 4K@25 fps capabilities several years ago. And if I understand what you have written in your message correctly, the Thingino may possibly, start supporting similar cameras sometimes in the future. Which is great. But it does not support them now.
I fully understand that the focus is on the mass market where the devices are cheap. It makes sense. It is reasonable.
But it is also necessary, in my opinion, to fully openly acknowledge that there indeed is a fairly broad gap in capabilities of what you can get with this kind of firmware when compared to the mainstream offerings.
Setup is made online. Then try to use that without a permanent internet connection... it turns itself off.
It needs a permament connection to tp-link. Now you imagine why.
I created a new subnet and an associated WiFi SSID for it, connected the Tapo cameras, and set them up to act as RTSP cams. I then firewalled the subnet off from anything other than my Frigate NVR server and gateway. They still work fine, they are streaming video to Frigate without complaint. Maybe because they have DNS from my gateway still? (I should probably block that off, it's a common data exfil vector).
Very annoying that internet connectivity is required for initial setup, I'll agree there. They could have just had a bare bones web interface.
I had one of these "no-brand" cameras that had an integrated MicroSD card, which would make you think that it'd work just fine even without the internet.
We had no power in Austin for several days, but I kept my camera on a portable battery, because, why not?
After the power and the internet were restored and I checked the app, turns out, nothing was recorded! Even though it was online the whole time.
Such a major disappointment.
Show HN: WFB-ng – long range high speed link for drones and robotics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41293934 - Aug 2024 (3 comments)
Thingino: Camera firmware derived from OpenIPC focused on the Ingenic SoC - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40261046 - May 2024 (2 comments)
OpenIPC is an alternative open firmware for your IP camera - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39571025 - March 2024 (70 comments)
OpenIPC: Alternative open firmware for your IP camera - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37812217 - Oct 2023 (59 comments)
OpenIPC: Alternative open firmware for your IP camera - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35975383 - May 2023 (1 comment)
And for most cameras sold, you'll have a hard time figuring out pre-buy, what SOC it contains.
Do you have any Amazon ASIN for any of these products, available for sale in the US?
There's a whole bunch of random no-name IP cameras available on Amazon US, often costing as low as $15 USD, possibly because some of them are subsidised by their cloud offerings, but I've never seen any of these brands listed on OpenIPC. I'm sure some of the brands we see, are simply whitelabels, but, how do you figure these things out, without a disassembly to look at the boards?
[1]: https://shinobi.video/ [2]: https://frigate.video/ [3]: https://zoneminder.com/
This firmware offers a variety of protocols so basically anything designed for viewing streaming video should just work
But, unfortunately, I wasn't able to translate any supported devices into an Amazon ASIN in the US.
Normally, many services on the internet only work in America. With OSS security cams, it seems to be the exact opposite. Eastern Europe and China are way ahead here.
It would be awesome if there was an openfirmware option for this hardware.
With a spare raspberry pi kicking around, I’ve put together a better solution using Motion, a Webcam, iNotify and a Dropbox uploader script. It works like a charm, after a powerloss etc the pi boots up, starts Motion and then starts watching for events, motion triggers and saves video clips to a folder, iNotify watches for new files saved and then uploads to Dropbox.
https://team.openipc.org/ipcam_dms/
(note the english translated link)
Even if I had a higher level of trust on the hardware and firmware, principle of least privilege.
They all have their own off-spec kernel drivers, compatible with absolutely nothing. You even have to rewrite camera sensor drivers from scratch for every vendor's middleware.
Same reason why routers run Linux.