YouTube downloaders (and how Google silenced the press)
176 points
12 hours ago
| 20 comments
| windowsread.me
| HN
molticrystal
4 hours ago
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The claim that Google secretly wants YouTube downloaders to work doesn't hold up. Their focus is on delivering videos across a vast range of devices without breaking playback(and even that is blurring[0]), not enabling downloads.

If you dive into the yt-dlp source code, you see the insane complexity of calculations needed to download a video. There is code to handle nsig checks, internal YouTube API quirks, and constant obfuscation that makes it a nightmare(and the maintainers heroes) to keep up. Google frequently rejects download attempts, blocks certain devices or access methods, and breaks techniques that yt-dlp relies on.

Half the battle is working around attempts by Google to make ads unblockable, and the other half is working around their attempts to shut down downloaders. The idea of a "gray market ecosystem" they tacitly approve ignores how aggressively they tweak their systems to make downloading as unreliable as possible. If Google wanted downloaders to thrive, they wouldn't make developers jump through these hoops. Just look at the yt-dlp issue tracker overflowing with reports of broken functionality. There are no secret nods, handshakes, or other winks, as Google begins to care less and less about compatibility, the doors will close. For example, there is already a secret header used for authenticating that you are using the Google version of Chrome browser [1] [2] that will probably be expanded.

[0] Ask HN: Does anyone else notice YouTube causing 100% CPU usage and stattering? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45301499

[1] Chrome's hidden X-Browser-Validation header reverse engineered https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44527739

[2] https://github.com/dsekz/chrome-x-browser-validation-header

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AceJohnny2
3 hours ago
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I also don't buy this argument about YouTube depending on downloaders:

> They perform a valuable role: If it were impossible to download YouTube videos, many organizations would abandon hosting their videos on YouTube for a platform that offered more user flexibility. Or they’d need to host a separate download link and put it in their YouTube descriptions. But organizations don’t need to jump through hoops -- they just let people use YouTube downloaders.

No, organizations simply use YouTube because it's free, extremely convenient, has been very stable enough over the past couple decades to depend on, and the organization does not have the resources to setup an alternative.

Also, I'm guessing such organizations represent a vanishly small segment of YouTube's uploaders.

I don't think people appreciate how much YouTube has created a market. "Youtuber" is a valid (if often derided) job these days, where creators can earn a living wage and maintain whole media companies. Preserving that monetization portal is key to YouTube and its content creators.

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lucb1e
48 minutes ago
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> and the organization does not have the resources to setup an alternative.

Can confirm at least one tech news website argued this point and tore down their own video hosting servers in favor of using Youtube links/embeds. Old videos on tweakers.net are simply not accessible anymore, that content is gone now

This was well after HTML5 was widely supported. As a website owner myself, I don't understand what's so hard now that we can write 1 HTML tag and have an embedded video on the page. They made it sound like they need to employ an expensive developer to continuously work on improving this and fixing bugs whereas from my POV you're pretty much there with running ffmpeg at a few quality settings upon uploading (there are maybe 3 articles with a video per day, so any old server can handle this) and having a quality selector below the video. Can't imagine what about this would have changed in the past decade in a way that requires extra development work. At most you re-evaluate every 5 years which quality levels ffmpeg should generate and change an integer in a config file...

Alas, little as I understand it, this tiny amount of extra effort, even when the development and setup work is already in the past(!), is apparently indeed a driving force in centralizing to Youtube for for-profits

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ameliaquining
4 hours ago
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The argument the article is making is that if they really wanted YouTube downloaders to stop working, they'd switch to Encrypted Media Extensions. Do you think that's not plausible?
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molticrystal
4 hours ago
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Many smart devices that have youtube functionality(tvs, refrigerators, consoles, cable boxes, etc), have limited or no ability to support that functionality in hardware, or even if they do, it might not be exposed.

Once those devices get phased out, it is very likely they will move to Encrypted Media Extensions or something similar, I believe I saw an issue ticket on yt-dlp's repo indicating they are already experimenting with such, as certain formats are DRM protected. Lookup all the stuff going on with SABR which if I remember right is either related to DRM or what they may use to support DRM.

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hayksaakian
2 hours ago
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for example I think feature length films that YouTube sells (or rents) already use this encryption.
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dzhiurgis
1 hour ago
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That’s why authors should pony up and pay for the encryption feature and rest should be free to download. YouTube could embed ads this way too.
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peteforde
2 minutes ago
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That's a wildly imaginative fever dream you're having. There is no timeline in which content creators would pay YouTube to encrypt their video content.
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ls612
1 hour ago
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Here has to be at least some benefit Google thinks it gets from youtube downloaders, because for instance there have been various lawsuits going after companies that provide a website to do youtube downloading by the RIAA and co, but Google has studiously avoided endorsing their legal arguments.
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kragen
15 minutes ago
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Using DRM would make it illegal for YouTubers to use Creative-Commons-licensed content in their videos, such as Kevin MacLeod's music or many images from Wikipedia.
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justsomehnguy
2 hours ago
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> if they really wanted YouTube downloaders to stop working

Wrong question leads to the wrong answer.

The right one is "how much of the ad revenue would be lost if". For now it's cheaper to spend bazillions on a whack-a-mole.

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eek2121
1 hour ago
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While I do agree (mostly, I've never had a download NOT work, on the rare occasion I grab one), they haven't made it impossible to download videos, so that is a win IMO.
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jlaternman
1 hour ago
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“If it were impossible to download YouTube videos, many organizations would abandon hosting their videos on YouTube for a platform that offered more user flexibility.”

Seems like a bit of a presumptuous proposition. If it were impossible, the web just might be a bit more shit, and the video monopoly would roll on regardless. Most might just come to take for granted videos of personal significance (I downloaded one of my grandpa in WW2 footage, for example, and there was no other version available except the YouTube one) are dependent on YouTube continuing to host them.

Some would, of course, use alternative platforms that offer proper download links, but it's hard to think that would be most, easy to think that would be well under 5% of those uploading videos that should in ways be a kind of permanent archive, or that this loss would really amount to anything to Google, commercially. Maybe not something to poke the bear on?

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Wowfunhappy
4 hours ago
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> Google needs YouTube downloaders. They perform a valuable role: If it were impossible to download YouTube videos, many organizations would abandon hosting their videos on YouTube for a platform that offered more user flexibility. Or they’d need to host a separate download link and put it in their YouTube descriptions. But organizations don’t need to jump through hoops -- they just let people use YouTube downloaders.

I don't think I believe this, as much as I'd like to. How many organizations would really consider this a critical need? My guess is, not enough for Google to care.

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adocomplete
3 hours ago
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Also, if you upload a video to YouTube you can download it from YouTube Studio at any time, so that doesn't add up at all.

YouTube just doesn't make this available via API, but you've always been able to manually from YouTube Studio download your uploaded videos.

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ThunderSizzle
2 hours ago
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That sounds brutal if you have 5 years of daily uploads or something like that. At some point, if you want your entire catalog, that becomes a very sucky process.
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crazygringo
2 hours ago
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Just use Google Takeout. It will create a series of archive files for you to download.
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nitwit005
3 hours ago
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This seems to be starting with the assumption that it's possible to prevent people from downloading the videos. That is a false assumption. You can, after all, just play the video and record it. Even if the entire machine playing the content is flawlessly locked down, you can just record the output.

The efforts at DRM done by companies like Netflix is done because the companies that licensed the content demand it. That doesn't mean the DRM works. You can find torrents of all those shows.

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kelvinjps
48 minutes ago
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Downloading a Netflix show is not as easy as downloading a YouTube video is not like you go Netflix downloader put a link and download the video easily. Actually as it's was expensive for the piraters to get the show they only offer it with ads. Maybe you can find it with torrents but series are less common to find than movies
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grugagag
2 hours ago
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Yeah, you can capture HDMI stream with a cheap card so basically everything is ultimately copyable, however that brings in some friction. Some people prefer the easiest option, even if that showers them in advertisments and distupts their attention.
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eek2121
1 hour ago
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Not if you want the highest quality, and they could absolutely stop even that if desired. The only reason why those methods work is due to legacy support. If they only supported the latest versions of HDMI and DRM, it would be very hard to get decent quality video/audio. As it is, even with things currently as they are, we still don't have the high quality feeds that are sent to TVs and dedicated hardware.
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Liftyee
35 minutes ago
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I wonder if it would be possible to use e.g. an FPGA to intercept the "last-leg" MIPI signals going between a TV/monitor's control board and the physical display panel itself. Surely there can't be any DRM at that level, because there is not much more "compute" down the line?

Granted, you would have to deal with whatever your display does to the raw video signal - preferable to pointing a camcorder at the display but a little worse than the original file.

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beeflet
1 hour ago
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It only takes one guy to copy it and upload it to bittorrent or something. All these trusted computing schemes are dependent on the weakest link never breaking, where the weakest link is a piece of hardware that the attacker always has access to.
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varenc
55 minutes ago
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DRM isn't perfect of course, but it largely works.

Unlike with Youtube videos, you can't just freely pull something off GitHub and crack Widevine level 1 DRM. The tools and extracted secret keys that release groups use to pirate 4K content are protected and not generally available.

This doesn't matter if you want to find something popular enough for a release group to drop in a torrent, but if you have personal access to some bespoke or very obscure content the DRM largely prevents you from downloading it. (especially at level 1, used for 4K, which requires that only a separate hardware video decoder can access the keys)

tl;dr; DRM works in the sense it changes it from 1/100 people can download something (YouTube) to ~1/100000.

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dylan604
2 hours ago
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> That doesn't mean the DRM works. You can find torrents of all those shows.

Causation does not mean correlation. The vast majority of content available via torrents did not come from breaking a streamer's DRM.

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crazygringo
2 hours ago
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It didn't? Then how are they getting the streamed bits directly? Since there's generally a torrent available that is the direct source, no re-encoding.

Or do you mean they read the source from hacking into a memory buffer after the player does decryption but before decoding, instead of doing the decryption themselves?

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dylan604
31 minutes ago
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I’m saying they are getting the original from different sources than a streaming platform
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encrypted_bird
16 minutes ago
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I don't see how that would work with videos that don't have differeny original sources. For example, Netflix-original shows/movies. While a small fraction are released on DVD/Blu-ray, the vast majority are only accessible through Netflix, nowhere else.
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nitwit005
2 hours ago
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I didn't say anything about breaking the DRM. I suggested there's no reason to.
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dzhiurgis
1 hour ago
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AFAIK HDMI protects from direct ripping so how do they actually do it?
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lucb1e
37 minutes ago
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content... You mean this? Doesn't sound that hard to bypass
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BolexNOLA
17 minutes ago
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Eh sort of sometimes maybe. Lots of hardware/cables out there that don’t care what you’re doing. I can use an ATEM mini to grab basically anything I want so long as I’m down to capture in real time.
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dzhiurgis
1 hour ago
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Why 4k shows are still quite rare on torrents?
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antonkochubey
1 minute ago
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They aren’t on decent trackers, everything popular is available in 4K HDR.
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lucb1e
39 minutes ago
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Hard to speak for everyone but I'd not be interested in them because it's a lot of storage space and my device can display only "1k" (1080p) anyway
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encrypted_bird
6 minutes ago
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1080p is 2K. The value of the "K" coefficient is determined by the x axis, not the y axis. That's why 4K is 3840x2160.

16K = 15360x8640 8K = 7680x4320 4K = 3840x2160 2K = 1920x1080 1K = 960x540

(Every value is a doubling of the tier below it, or in the case of "1K" a halving.)

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tantalor
5 hours ago
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> Google has now covered its tracks better -- there’s nothing about “Google Product Abuse” in its current AdSense policies.

In other (less biased) words: These old rules were rescinded haven't been enforced since 2012 (last example cited). This article was written in 2025 and still complaining about something that isn't happening anymore.

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whycome
1 hour ago
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Yeah! The also took out “don’t be evil”!
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kevin_thibedeau
1 hour ago
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My city posts bodycam video on YouTube private links. Being able to download them is necessary to preserve evidence. Nice bonus that you get a machine transcript as well.
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senorrib
49 minutes ago
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I’ve been looking for these. Any pointers on where I can find them?
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est
23 minutes ago
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> many organizations would abandon hosting their videos on YouTube for a platform that offered more user flexibility

Well it's about tie organizations also upload their videos to peertube!

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mikey_p
3 hours ago
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Want I really want is an *arr style app that I can give a list of Youtube channels I want archived, and it would just keep the archive up to date indefinitely.
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bilegeek
2 hours ago
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Somebody made a script that automatically downloads from YouTube using RSS feeds - assuming I don't jinx it by mentioning they still have those...

https://github.com/Jocomol/newsboat_video_downloader

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lucb1e
35 minutes ago
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What's an *arr style app?
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pentagrama
2 hours ago
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Didn't know about https://stacher.io/, will take a look.

On my favorites YouTube downloaders with UI, I have:

- Varia https://giantpinkrobots.github.io/varia/

- Media Downloader https://github.com/mhogomchungu/media-downloader/

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eek2121
1 hour ago
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FreeTube lets you not only view videos (sans ads, and you can block sponsors, if desired), but download them as well, and it is cross platform.
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xnx
7 hours ago
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ytarchive is also great for downloading livestreams.

Unfortunately, it's not as up-to-date as yt-dlp so it can be fragile against blocks. I'm hoping that yt-dlp adds some functionality for downloading portions of a livestream (i.e. not downloading from the start, 120 hours ago).

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KwanEsq
5 hours ago
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Huh, last/only time I used yt-dlp on a livestream it downloaded exactly from when I ran it, didn't get anything in the past at all (which was a shame for me personally at the time, as I would have liked the earlier stuff too).

Maybe that was a difference in the stream itself though, since I've experienced both past-seekable and live-only live streams on YouTube.

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jabroni_salad
5 hours ago
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turning off the DVR is just a UI change. ytarchive can still grab the past parts of the broadcast just fine. What's really funny is it will even download censored segments which sometimes happens in music broadcasts like A State Of Trance or Group Therapy. You can also force enable seeking with a userscript if you wish.

The problem with this DVR feature is that if your connection is stuttering it will buffer you backwards a bit. Streamers like to disable this because they want to keep the time to deliver as low as possible so chat is more interactive and engaging, especially on youtube where your viewership might not qualify for the CCV metrics if the stream is not in a foreground tab. Best to leave it off if that is important for you.

https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/485020-ytbetter-enable-rew...

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scottiebarnes
6 hours ago
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Not sure if this applies to livestreams but look into the --download-sections arg?

yt-dlp --download-sections "*05:00-05:10" <YouTube URL>

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schlarpc
6 hours ago
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Doesn’t work for livestreams as far as I know. There’s an open PR: https://github.com/yt-dlp/yt-dlp/pull/6498
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batisteo
5 hours ago
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> The best YouTube downloader for Android is NewPipe. You should have a look at Tubular, a fork.
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anotherevan
1 hour ago
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Link for Tubular: https://github.com/polymorphicshade/Tubular

You should also look at PipePipe, also available on F-Droid and with similar enhancements (e.g., Sponsorblock) over NewPipe.

https://github.com/InfinityLoop1308/PipePipe

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RattlesnakeJake
3 hours ago
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I just started using Tubular. The built-in SponsorBlock integration is really nice
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mrandish
4 hours ago
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The article doesn't include Android TV based devices like Chrome/Fire sticks. Android mobile apps tend not to work with remote controls. The best Android TV app is: https://smarttubeapp.github.io/
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Animats
5 hours ago
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It's interesting that YouTube not only does not block pirated movies on ok.ru, they give them high rankings in search. Hm.
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mongol
2 hours ago
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There is also a program called streamlink. I have found it good to find Live streams at Youtube, since those often changes. For example, if a TV channel has a live stream at a certain Youtube URL, a few weeks later, it may be at a different URL. But streamlink can sometimes find it, just by looking at the Youtube channel
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rahimnathwani
4 hours ago
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Is Stacher open source?

Last time I searched 'stacher open source' on Google, I found a Reddit thread discussing when it might become open source.

EDIT: The reason I ask is that the article says Stacher is open source, and that is news to me.

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uhx
22 minutes ago
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Same here. Couldn't find any source code
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eahm
1 hour ago
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>The best YouTube downloaders for Windows (and beyond)

Didn't even mention https://3dyd.com

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IOUnix
1 hour ago
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I surprised they didn't even mention jdownloader on the list. It's great for most sites.
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nalinidash
9 hours ago
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TIL about stacher!Thank you.
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Leftium
7 hours ago
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Yeah! Stacher was one of the reasons I shared this on HN.

Also interesting take on why downloaders are ethical; Google tacitly allows and actually needs them.

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phoobahr
7 hours ago
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“The best downloaded for iOS/ipados” is yt-dlp. Install in ashell, view with VLC.
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superkuh
7 hours ago
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Youtube is a youtube downloader. Everything is a downloader. It's literally impossible to interact with a thing without downloading it and having the data. The difference is that the data is usually deleted later (a silly practice done to trick the lawyers into believing the world is like they think it is, hiding actual reality that would confuse and enrage them).
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tshaddox
3 hours ago
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The word "download" is used in two senses. The first is the broader sense you're referring to, where it means "to receive data." The second sense means to collect all the data from a particular file or dataset and store it locally, as opposed to "streaming." That second sense is the one clearly being used when referring to "YouTube downloaders."
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miloignis
7 hours ago
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Agreed, more or less, but I would argue you could make a distinction for a "streaming" situation where say no more than 10% of the data is on your computer at any one point in time, vs "downloading" where the data exists in its entirety at once.

You could encode these terms in a contract or something about allowed usage of a service, I believe.

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superkuh
7 hours ago
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You could. But youtube's website itself would fail this "only 10% at once" test.
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littlestymaar
5 hours ago
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Why? IIRC you can flush the SourceBuffer in Media Source Extention and only keep a small part of the video in the browser's RAM at all time.

(It won't work for Youtube shorts though, because 10% of a 30s video just isn't enough for reliable smooth playback)

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SoKamil
7 hours ago
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Unless it’s protected by DRM.
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presbyterian
7 hours ago
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Even with DRM, if you can see it, it's decoded somewhere along the line. There will always be a way to get the raw video out of it if you're committed enough.
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perching_aix
6 hours ago
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That's actually an important distinction. You can recapture the DRM protected (and then decoded) video pretty much always indeed, but then you degrade the quality by having to encode it again.

Well, not important to some, but for enthusiasts and people looking to actually archive things, it is very important.

Case in point, hilariously, the last time I used YouTube's video download feature bundled with their Premium offering, I got a way worse quality output than with yt-dlp, which actually ripped the original stream without reencoding it.

I think I saw an idempotent h264 encoder at some point, where you wouldn't suffer generational loss if you matched the encoder settings exactly from run to run. But then you might need the people mastering the content (in this case YouTube) to adopt that same encoder, which they're not going to be "interested" in.

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kuschku
4 hours ago
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Even with DRM video you can fetch it losslessly. At some point, some part of your system requires access to the raw, decrypted video stream.

As long as that's the case, you can get bit-perfect netflix rips.

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Marsymars
1 hour ago
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The problem is that if you have the raw data, you’ve lost the original compression information, so you can’t get it back to a sensible size without double compressing. e.g. Think about what you get when you save a jpeg as a bitmap.
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dylan604
2 hours ago
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circumventing the DRM is what will land you in legal hot water. storing the DRM encrypted media isn't the same offense
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charcircuit
5 hours ago
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Downloading videos is a premium feature of YouTube and doesn't delete the data.
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skinnymuch
3 hours ago
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Can you access those downloads?
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charcircuit
2 hours ago
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Yes, there is a downloads button in the app to see your downloaded videos.

https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/11977233

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nativeit
2 hours ago
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I'm pretty sure they meant, can the videos be accessed as files in the filesystem, which to my knowledge they cannot.
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dzhiurgis
1 hour ago
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Shit like that should be illegal. I.e. netflix’s downloads expire after 30 days.
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lucb1e
24 minutes ago
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Shit? Illegal? It's literally your right on videos like <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSEJApMIrLU>. Expand the description and see at the bottom: license is set to creative commons. The copyright holder permits everyone to remix the video but youtube still does not show a button for you to actually make use of that

You need to breach the terms of service (use a downloader) to exercise the rights of the content license that youtube supports

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