▲My theory for a bit now has been that Valve is playing the long game in trying to make SteamOS a mainstay gaming platform as an alternative to Windows, and that the hardware products are essentially a way of breaking into that market. Even a few years ago, the idea of a custom Linux distro based on Arch Linux with both a built-in full desktop mode and a lower-powered gaming mode that you could switch between on a handheld device would have sounded kind of crazy, but now we're at the point where it's fully supported on more than one vendor's hardware. This seems like it could be a similar play in the traditional desktop space; if they can prove that the concept is viable, maybe other vendors will come out with similar products that come with SteamOS by default. All of this insulates them from having to worry about the long-term sustainability of making money from game sales on Windows, and if it works out, they wouldn't even necessarily have to continue making hardware indefinitely.
I don't pretend to have any insight into whether this theory is correct beyond that it seems to track with what they've been doing lately, or any expertise to make claims about whether it will work or not. In a lot of ways, this might just be a projection of my desires as a gamer who enjoys not having had to boot into Windows to play something for quite a few years at this point. I do hope that maybe they're just crazy enough to not only try this, but pull it off though!
I don't think this needs to be a theory. Valve regards Microsoft's flirtations with walled gardens (MS Store) as an existential threat. They see their investment into linux gaming as a hedge against future locked down windows OS, which is at this point probably inevitable.
reply▲happy-dude11 hours ago
[-] Absolutely. This is a long term strategy stemming from the moment Microsoft spawned their app store.
A lot of people are missing the fact that the Steam Frame is Valve's attempt at staking a position in the wide-open and malleable VR space.
With Google, they identified that Microsoft developing their own search engine as an existential threat. Additionally, Internet Explorer being the only bottleneck for the web as a platform was a problem. And thus they broke it wide open, developing web technologies, investing in Firefox initially, releasing Chrome, and ultimately delivering Android.
In mobile, Microsoft came too late to respond to Apple and Google.
Meta and Apple have identified that VR is one of the next gold-mines in terms of a similar app-store and experience rich ecosystem potential comparable to PCs, web, and mobile, and have poured billions into development of hardware and software. It's documented that Meta attempted to create a proprietary OS for their VR headsets (and has debatable success).
Valve, while having fewer resources than any of the behemoths above, decided to hedge their bets with Linux and entering the market first through their well established brand built with video games. It would not surprise me if the Steam Frame begins their entry into other entertainment experiences and app opportunities. Microsoft has reasonable success weaving their ecosystem together (PC + Xbox), but they're foolish to think that their dominance would continue into VR because they have the PC space... They made that mistake with Windows Phone.
> A lot of people are missing the fact that the Steam Frame is Valve's attempt at staking a position in the wide-open and malleable VR space.
It is their third attempt.
VR has so far failed to reach an amount of people to make developing games for it really worthwhile, and the metaverse really doesn’t have much going for it either.
I don’t really see much momentum in that space, and the consensus among my friends is that it’s a gimmick to try a few times - with their vr headsets collecting dust since.
Can confirm, I have two VR headsets, and they're both collecting dust. Was a neat gimmick for a few days some years ago..
reply▲> With Google, they identified that Microsoft developing their own search engine as an existential threat. Additionally, Internet Explorer being the only bottleneck for the web as a platform was a problem. And thus they broke it wide open, developing web technologies, investing in Firefox initially, releasing Chrome, and ultimately delivering Android.
That story ended up with Google supplanting Microsoft as the top market abuser. So I'm holding all my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn out the same with Valve, especially since by the time they get to have a shot at that top position Valve will very likely be under different leadership and maybe with different ideals.
Gabe is a former MSFTy, left in 1996 to found Valve, he saw games as more popular than Windows. It wouldn’t surprise me if he got into games in order to compete against his former employer which would suggest to me that this plan has been in motion since before 1996, almost 30 years. At least from my point of view, if I wanted to take on Microsoft, doing what he did for the past 30 years is how I would go about doing that.
reply▲frakkingcylons18 hours ago
[-] Gabe gave a talk at my college like 12 or 13 years ago. He explicitly called out the unbelievable number of downloads for Doom as a sign that games were going to be huge.
Fun non-sequitur: the other speaker at that talk went on to become the finance minister of Greece.
Yanis Varoufakis?
reply▲frakkingcylons17 hours ago
[-] Yes he was a visiting professor for like a semester or two.
reply▲He was also working for Valve for a while.
reply▲frakkingcylons16 hours ago
[-] Yes that’s why he and Gabe were speakers at the talk. In game economies were the topic.
reply▲Yanis basically created steam market and the dota/cs economy
reply▲No he didn’t.
TF2 economy existed long before him and he sure as hell wasn’t “basically created dota/cs economy”.
nitpick but Yanis Varoufakis was born in 1961 and TF2 was released in 2007 so he definitely existed first.
I do agree that he didn't create the dota/cs economy
He started to work at Valve in March 2012 and steam market was released 9 months later.
He created the dota 2 economy and the cs team copied the Dota 2 economy.
but games are a niche, nobody in my circle or extended circle plays video games.
reply▲ppseafield12 hours ago
[-] I don't think it was explicitly to compete with Microsoft. Gabe explicitly said when the Windows 8 App Store was announced that Valve was going to ensure Microsoft couldn't lock them out of the desktop market. He said Valve benefitted for PC's openness (up until it was threatened).
Microsoft also had Games for Windows Live at the time, which provided similar functionality to parts of Steam (friends, multiplayer, voice chat, achievements), so with that plus the App Store, one could easily see it as Microsoft coming for their market.
> Mr Newell, who worked for Microsoft for 13 years on Windows, said his company had embraced the open-source software Linux as a "hedging strategy" designed to offset some of the damage Windows 8 was likely to do.
> He said the success of Valve, known for its Half Life, Left4Dead and Portal titles, had been down to the open nature of the PC.
> "We've been a free rider, and we've been able to benefit from everything that went into PCs and the internet," he told the conference. "And we have to continue to figure out how there will be open platforms."
> "There's a strong temptation to close the platform," he said, "because they look at what they can accomplish when they limit the competitors' access to the platform, and they say, 'That's really exciting.'"
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18996377
If I was going to take on Microsoft I would say a lot of things that were not “I’m going to take on Microsoft,” best not to wake the sleeping giant. You can fix a lot of orgs by attacking them. Also I think Valve is set up as a bit of an anti-Microsoft, a flat(ish?) org structure as opposed to the matrix org structure. Having worked at MSFT I was definitely thinking that these people are going to fumble and a getting into position ready to pick up the ball when that happens might be a good strategy - though clearly a long term one.
reply▲I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the story in so many of Valve’s early games—Half-Life 1, Portal, Team Fortress 2—is about how corporate work environments are amusingly terrible.
reply▲Not much of a theory when everything you described has already happened.
reply▲ThrowawayB716 hours ago
[-] > "
All of this insulates them from having to worry about the long-term sustainability of making money from game sales on Windows..."
The weak link in your theory is that Microsoft is in control of the future of the DirectX API, not Valve, and it is Microsoft who is working with nVidia and AMD and game studios to evolve DirectX to take advantage of the latest GPU features. SteamOS can at best follow closely behind but can never take the lead without Valve developing their own games API that games developers an GPU makers are willing to target.
Did you forget about Vulkan? Valve and AMD are Khronos members and active contributors to the Vulkan spec. Games like Baldur's Gate 3 and Civ VII use Vulkan on Deck. There's a complete graphics ecosystem with full participation from the games industry that doesn't have Microsoft as the gatekeeper.
reply▲it would be a really bold move on microsoft's part, as it would be direct monopoly abuse
it would be interesting to see how or if they were punished for it in the current political environment or even the next one, but i hope we don't find out
i suspect long term it would just be a foot gun that drives vulkan's popularity anyway though
MetaWhirledPeas19 hours ago
[-] > maybe other vendors will come out with similar products that come with SteamOS by default
It's already happening. Lenovo released a SteamOS variant of the The Lenovo Legion Go S.
And the legion go 2 is windows 11 only so they did not learn anything
reply▲I for one eagerly awaits Lenovo to release SteamOS versions of their ThinkPads
reply▲They generally run Linux without issue already... that said, pre-installed options would be nice, not sure if SteamOS is the most appropriate. Probably Pop, Cachy or Bazzite, and given that Pop comes from a competitor, unlikely.
reply▲This t470 on ubuntu 2404 runs steam just fine.
The main issue with modern games is the lack of gpu, but gpus in laptops are never great.
I mean most thinkpads run linux jist fine. So they already are SteamOS machines.
reply▲I still remember when Valve first showed an early alpha unreleased version of Steam running natively in Ubuntu for the first time in the early 2010s. It blew my mind that a major company, especially an entertainment company, was targeting Linux at this scale.
Of course, Wine was very lackluster in those days, and for a while I was worried they'd eventually give up with the monumental effort that would be involved in getting it up to snuff.
It's now over a decade later and they're still at it and have made monumental leaps. Valve truly was and still is playing the long game here.
Imagine if Microsoft had never threatened their business with the Windows 8 store and the anxiety of Microsoft locking down their platform.
Halflife2 ran
perfectly under WINE. At the time I assumed that it was a win for WINE but with hindsight — and typing this out makes me feel so naive! — was HL2 optimized for WINE in order to make WINE more successful? Of course it must have been!
It’s a shame the connotations are negative because this ironic comment otherwise works quite well: This large wooden horse is such an extravagant gift, it has to have some subversive purpose, right?!
It ran fine as in not crashing, but you were limited to dx8 or maybe dx9a feature set which limited many visual effects and there were significant performance issues originating from wine's reliance on translating dx to opengl, lack of offloading cpu grpahics "command lists" (or whatever it's called) to a deditacted thread and the disjointed state of linux graphics at the time... It took until about 2013 for wine staging to run hl2 properly with multi core rendering and with all bells and wistle, but performance was still inferior.
I think linux graphics were only good when paired with the right version of red hat and nvidia drivers on a supported workstation dedicated for running proprietary 3d/vfx software packages as an alternative to the aging SGI workstations. Every other use case was pretty rough... until about 2017 when things began to change massively, and finally now, where you can actually get better experiences than freaking windows on most use cases.
BlueTemplar21 hours ago
[-] reply▲I'd love to be confident that the company's strategy is sound enough to keep the same long-term goals from that far back, but I don't think I'm sure enough to make strong assumptions about what the overall motivations of products launched in 2025 are from his comments in 2012. I do think that it's a plausible explanation, but there's plenty of room for humility in attempting to interpret whether intent has changed in the light of over a decade of new circumstances that may or may not have been expected.
reply▲That’s how privately owned companies with BDFL founders still running them operate.
No shareholders. No dopey stock market magazine articles. No quarterly “did you make the line go up? why not?” reports. You can execute on a 10 or 20 or 50 year vision when youre beholden to only your customers, your staff, and yourself and not a pack of rabid wolves.
Nice theory and it would make sense with how unstable Microsoft has been in their all encompassing quest to make AI a thing people use by cramming it into everything (along with their other shitty practices)
Though not necessarily the case since selling steam devices also will make steam the default even more which could also be a primary reason it could also be both, who knows.
> Install your own apps, or even another operating system. Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
I'm so happy to read this
BlindEyeHalo4 hours ago
[-] Turns out that a company that is not publicly traded and run by people that only care about stock prices, can actually care about their customers.
reply▲There's all sorts of things you can do if you don't care about money.
The more interesting point is that if you aren't driven by investors to care about short term financial stuff (stock prices) then you can make long term decisions. Caring about your customers is a classic one for this - costs you money in the short term, but in the long term gets you a great customer base.
They care about money. They definitely care about money. They have achieved a steady cash flow that can sustain their business forever, unless something really bad happens.
What they don't care is the endless growth that MBA guys always try to achieve, and the quarterly profit driven decision making that ultimately destroys their customers loyalty, for short term profit.
A business can be very profitable without being exploitative. It's the people in Wall Street who can't seem to understand this. For them a hundred million dollars of profit is good if last year it was only fifty million dollars, and a dying business if last year it was also a hundred million dollars. It really makes no sense.
Valve respects its customers. It is so insane that this isn't a norm; what a world we would be in if all companies did so.
reply▲3acctforcom19 hours ago
[-] Gabe is literally practising Noblesse Oblige, which is really funny but really shows that our billionare society is really just a reduction to old aristocracy. He's just the good Duke, whereas most Dukes are horrible, horrible people.
reply▲Noblesse oblige exists because of a moral economy. You
can be a horrible Duke, because there's no real reward for being the good one.
This is not that - Steam has to compete on the free market, there is a reward for making the product everyone else refuses to make. In a post-Deck world, it's hard to believe that moral obligation plays a bigger role than the overall hatred of Windows for seamless gaming experiences.
B1FF_PSUVM10 hours ago
[-] > Noblesse oblige exists because
... the plebs know what is good for them. Horrible Dukes get horses wanting nails.
Gamers are a passionate bunch. Screwing around with them is a losing game that no one has historically ever won. And also because a lot of their competitors fucked up to pave the road for them (Think Sony's PS fiasco, Microsoft's X-Box clusterfuck from which they're yet to recover from, a decade later). Valve has gotten alot of billion dollar lessons in here that Valve got for free.
reply▲> Screwing around with them is a losing game that no one has historically ever won.
What universe do you live in?
- Broken games still pre-ordered
- marginal updates sold at full price
- double/triple-dipping with microtransactions and battle passes
- DRM still [predominant and still hurts performance
- every publisher with more than one game has their own launcher (usually shitty and brings no value)
- rootkit as anti-cheat
- offline game that require online connectivety
- online services get shutdown
- LAN multiplayer is a thing of a past
What did games exactly won?
- Paid skyrim mods? It's back.
- MS game sharing thing that rendered GameStop business model useless? IMO a mistake, MS was onto something there.
bigfishrunning10 hours ago
[-] The PlayStation seems pretty successful, not sure what "PS fiasco" you're referring to. The stock price is doing fine, at any rate
reply▲Possibly the ps3? They did eventually recover but the early years were rough
reply▲> . Screwing around with them is a losing game that no one has historically ever won
DRM is everywhere so gamers have clearly lost
godzillabrennus23 hours ago
[-] Don't sugarcoat it. Valve has to make sure this is advertised as a PC to keep the licensing good on the games you've bought and that they are allowed to sell. Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony have closed ecosystems with their consoles. Well, Microsoft seems to be throwing in the towel on consoles.
reply▲> keep the licensing good
That’s an imaginary issue.
Didn't Xbox pivot to be an entertainment system a couple generations ago and flop compared to PlayStation?
reply▲It probably didn't help that they removed all of those features over time.
reply▲BlueTemplar21 hours ago
[-] You mean compared to the PS3, one of the strong points of which was also having a Blu-Ray drive ?
reply▲ErroneousBosh14 hours ago
[-] I know a lot of folk (myself included) who pretty much only bought the PS3 because of the Blu-Ray drive.
I wasn't an early adopter and only bought a PS3 in 2010. In the intervening 15 years I have bought four Blu-Rays, and been given two more.
I own (and watch) more VHS tapes than Blu-Rays.
I sure did play a lot of GTA4, GTA5, Infamous, and Little Big Planet though.
This was the Xbone/PS4 generation.
The Blu-Ray drive is basically no added cost since the games were already distributed on optical disks, it’s like how the PS2 was one of the most popular DVD players. The problem with the Xbone was that, at least judging on their marketing at the time, Microsoft was far more focused on broadening the scope of the device beyond games while Sony stayed focused on gaming. That’s why I bought a PS4 despite previously using an Xbox 360.
ErroneousBosh14 hours ago
[-] > it’s like how the PS2 was one of the most popular DVD players
I worked for a Sony dealer when the PS2 launched, and they wouldn't give us one :-/
What I thought at the time was insane was that they were still selling a 200-disc carousel CD changer, and DVD version of the same thing (same box, different shade of silver grey, different drive mechanism, two chips different on the PCB) - but they had no plans to sell a 200-disc carousel PS2.
Imagine if you could have had all your movies, audio CDs, PSX, and shiny new PS2 games in one big box, tucked away out of sight, with your spiffy new 576p projector and 5.1 speakers hooked up to it!
But it is also a PC, so I don't see the issue even if this were true. It's just a box running an Arch Linux flavour.
reply▲> Well, Microsoft seems to be throwing in the towel on consoles.
Can you expand on this? I'm not a massive gamer, I thought xbox was doing well?
kattagarian21 hours ago
[-] >I thought xbox was doing well?
Microsoft lost the console wars. Their new generation (Series S & X) sold almost 1/4 of what PS5 did because they basically don't have any exclusive game that you can only play in their hardware. Microsoft invested heavily in their Gamepass subscription (that has more than 35 million users) and they believe that the future is on PC. The newest xbox hardware, a handheld made by Asus, is a PC running windows. The next generation of xbox hardware that will compete with the PS6 will also very likely be a PC. The xbox console is dead.
“I already have an Xbox One from 2013, why would I buy an extra X or S version?”
“Oh, there’s a PlayStation 5 now? Man I gotta upgrade from my PS4!”
Microsoft evidently did not learn from the Wii U.
Microsoft’s naming scheme has to be one of the biggest self-goals in console gaming. Number go up.
reply▲Back in the 1980s you got your Mom to buy you a game console and you would have needed a logical naming scheme so she would know an PS 3 was better than a PS 2.
XBOX cultivates a "gamer" who is heavily invested in the identity and is well educated in the various versions of XBOX and how the naming scheme works and since they are an adult buying the console for themselves they don't need to explain it to outsiders.
There are always first timers. How you treat your newbies says a lot about your respect for your customer.
If your marketing makes it hard to figure out what is what, well a Playstation $int[max] it is...
terribleperson9 hours ago
[-] the Series is one of the worst naming decisions in history. To this day I find myself mixing up the One X, One S, Series X, and Series S.
reply▲I feel like everyone lost the "console wars". Sony is not doing much better considering almost all of their former exclusives are on steam these days. Those next-gen Xboxes will have access to those sony games at discount pricing.
reply▲In theory you can run all your GamesPass games on a Steam Machine in the same way you can run arbitrary games through Proton, which is what Steam is doing.
What a wild world it would be, if Microsoft release a GamesPass client for linux so it can try and get a slice of all this new linux gaming happening on SteamOS.
LollipopYakuza23 hours ago
[-] Also they state that the console will remain the centerpiece, they want to make Xbox a "platform" to reuse their own term. It becomes an ecosystem rather than a hardware product. They idea is that as long as you have a gamepass, you can play on whatever you want - except macOS and Linux...
reply▲You can play gamepass on mac and linux via cloud streaming.
reply▲I think they think that's converted by streaming unfortunately.
reply▲littlestymaar18 hours ago
[-] > They idea is that as long as you have a gamepass
Didn't they just blow the remaining goodwill they had by increasing the gamepads price by 50% overnight?
Halo was announced for PS5 recently
reply▲YeGoblynQueenne15 hours ago
[-] >> Valve respects its customers.
That's the same Valve that doesn't let me play the games I paid it for unless they are running on its platform? That's how it "respects" me?
To be fair there are a lot of games on Steam that don't have DRM, which means you can just drag them out of the steamapps folder to a computer that doesn't have Steam and they work fine. The decision to add DRM comes from the developer/publisher, not Valve.
reply▲Name a game distribution platform that doesn't do this. It will be a toy example like a zip file purchased off of itch.io or something.
reply▲monkeywork10 hours ago
[-] GOG is hardly a toy and is the platform I look to purchase tons of games on instead of Steam (which I really like) and definitely over Epic (which I've never even installed)
reply▲Right. I have to be signed in to GOG to play Cyberpunk. That violates the spirit of the original commenter
reply▲You can play Cyberpunk downloaded from GOG without launching Galaxy.
Basically just go the the folder and run bin\x64\Cyberpunk2077.exe
The "Launch Cyberpunk" shortcut in the folder starts Galaxy and then runs the game from there.
Do you? I was pretty sure the Cyberpunk launcher has a "don't use account" button.
reply▲>> Name a game distribution platform that doesn't do this.
Why? If another platform also disrespects me, does that mean Steam doesn't disrespect me?
Humble Bundle
reply▲The most common activation keys in a bundle are ... Steam keys.
reply▲I think that's more a situation where publishers demand some form of DRM so steam is trying to provide a default solution that most publishers are happy with.
reply▲ErroneousBosh14 hours ago
[-] > That's the same Valve that doesn't let me play the games I paid it for unless they are running on its platform?
What exactly does that mean, for you?
Because they're not owned by private equity/publicly traded. If that ever happens the "let's squeeze this for every dime it's worth" will happen.
That's really the saddest thing about capitalism, if everything around us wasn't getting enshittified in the exact same way at least the future would be more alluring.
It is nice to see people bucking the trend getting rewarded, I see a bright future for an open ecosystem for gaming (even ignoring the Steam announcements).
DRM is the publishers choice, worth noting.
Powdering708220 hours ago
[-] Except that you don't own the things you buy on steam
reply▲eloisant37 minutes ago
[-] This is true for all digital purchases, video games or otherwise.
There is no such thing as "owning" a game unless you're the company that developed the game (or bought the company that did).
This is true. But it doesn't matter to me.
Most media for me is a one and done. A book, a movie, a computer game. Granted a computer games version of "done" might mean "played on and off for a year".
There are exceptions to this - books I read again, shows I'd watch again, but games seem to age poorly by comparison. Original Syndicate or Deus Ex - while playable - is not what I remember it to be and I'd rather keep the nostalgic memories than shatter them with a replay.
This rarity of exceptions means that I wouldn't lose much if my Steam account disappeared - mainly just "whatever I'm playing now". Create a new account and go again, or buy off GOG or something.
However in return for using Steam I get a lot of convenience - updates, propogated save files, easy chat and "Right click -> Join Game" with friends. That "Right click -> Join Game" is almost worth it on it's own for ease of social gaming.
Most people consume like this, but some like the warm fuzzies that hoarding gives them.
reply▲I would like to see change there for sure. That said, DRM is optional for publishers on Steam. Once you've downloaded a game without DRM (steam's or otherwise) you can back it up and play it without Steam.
reply▲AdmiralAsshat23 hours ago
[-] Me, too. I've been meaning to upgrade my HTPC for years, but I kept holding off because I had hoped that NVIDIA would release a new ShieldTV (the last one used the same chip as the Switch, so the community had quietly hoped that the Switch 2's release would coincide with a new Shield--no such luck). Assuming the Steam Machine is reasonably priced, I could easily see it also becoming my new Kodi box when not gaming on it.
reply▲If the Steam Machine sufficiently supports the DRM required for apps from Netflix, AppleTV, etc, it would definitely be a good option for that. As it is, my SO still likes the apps, though the actual subscriptions have been rotating a bit.
reply▲Have you considered dear
reply▲it's so refreshing to read something like that from a big company, it's weird, but felt like there's still hope? that there's people in power that still care? strange feeling, still curious about it
the last few in years in tech have been depressing, like no one cares to make something that's actually better for the consumer, it's made me into a cynic and I hate it
>that there's people in power that still care? strange feeling, still curious about it
One day, Gabe Newell will die. Maybe his racer son will inherit the job, or maybe he'll delegate the job. Maybe this new CEO will take Valve public to ensure they get a centi-million dollar payout.
Then all the good times end. This is the halcyon for Steam customers.
While true, at least Gabe proved you could make a profit while still remaining non-evil.
reply▲eloisant16 minutes ago
[-] Everyone knows that, it's just that you can make even more if you accept being evil.
reply▲All good things must come to an end.
reply▲centi = 10^-2
reply▲yeah, that's what was meant, they'll have 10k pay-out day :)
reply▲Valve is a private company. I'm not going to say that every public company lacks a product focus, but I think there is a danger in public companies where it becomes natural to promote MBA's over product and even sales roles. I know MBA is treated with hatred here, but I don't think they are necessarily bad or evil, but I do think they have an advantage in obtaining power naturally because it's basically their profession and espesially product people are often bad at corporate politics.
In many public companies there is the added level of investor interest, and it can often be a challenge for the C levels to remain in power during periods of slow or even negative growth. Challenges that companies like Valve simply don't have as long as the CEO is fine with it. On the flip side, I'm happy with my own stock portfolio so there is that.
The problem is that public companies have different incentives. They take a more short term views.
Their shareholders are not in it for the long term. Investment managers tend to look at anything more than two years as "long term", and they are conscious of their position in annual league tables.
Even private equity and venture capital are usually going to be thinking about the value at which they can exit reasonably soon.
The management of the company will be thinking about bonuses and options they get between now and when they move to the next job.
A private company can often take the view that what really matters is how much they will be making in five or ten years time. Maybe even how much it will be worth when the current shareholder’s kids inherit it. The management are often either owners, or are closely monitored by the owners.
Props to Valve for not treating freedom like a "pro" feature
reply▲Yup. Sounds like its just a PC and not a locked down platform.
Its easy for them and convenient for everyone.
reply▲Except that (I believe) "just a PC" was a bit offputting for a lot of people - when you buy a PC you can't just turn it on and play video games, especially not after Microsoft's shenanigans.
I'm honestly surprised nobody else tried a "boot to game library" PC, but then, you also need the name and reputation for it. Microsoft could've done it, but they chose to make a console. Which is mostly a PC, but you need xbox games, a separate ecosystem.
I think valve are the only players in a position to do this. They can probably ship this new hardware at a loss and make the money back through steam game purchases. Much like console manufacturers.
reply▲yencabulator21 hours ago
[-] reply▲Then it will compete more with those entry-level SFF PC builds.
I still hope that they will compete with console pricing though.
>nobody else tried a "boot to game library" PC,
Since Valve owns the library it makes sense that people will trust their solution and it has more chance for succcess
> I'm honestly surprised nobody else tried a "boot to game library" PC
Microsoft used to have Windows Media Centre, which was a version of Windows designed for HTPC use that booted straight to the media centre control screen. The last version of that was in Windows 7.
It is actually possible to replace the desktop in Windows, window management (but not chrome, that's part of Aero and/or individual "owner draw" applications), Explorer etc. Nobody's really bothered with that.
Microsoft are just too used to not having to compete, so they don't provide lots of variant SKUs for different uses. Even "point of sale" and LTS are somewhat neglected.
This. Zero reason I should have to download Playnite for a unified gaming frontend
reply▲they've done a ton of engineering to make this happen. they implemented the necessary interfaces in steam, _they developed proton_ to avoid windows, worked with hardware to get console features like wake from controller connect, and custom hardware we see here.
reply▲I mean, even Valve has tried it in the past, and it was a failure. Look up Steam Machines from 2010s. I consider the success of Steam Deck (thanks to flawless execution this time) as almost a minor miracle.
reply▲The big difference is the extra years of work that went into Proton and Steam-on-Linux ecosystem, including controller support etc.
reply▲A failure they fully admit they learned from. Proton was the outcome of that failure, and I'd say they are well poised to make a bigger dent this time.
reply▲but it has 'steam' in the name. So the target is the steam audience already.
>Microsoft could've done it, but they chose to make a console.
Missed the one, they did try with the rebranding of 'xbox'
That rebranding and Microsoft's abjectly
terrible product naming convention essentially killed the Xbox. What the absolute fuck were they smoking when they went from Xbox, to Xbox 360, to Xbox One, to Xbox One X, to Xbox Series S and X? Like anybody wants an enterprise gaming console.
Absolutely bonkers considering how strong they came in with the first Xbox, Halo, and Xbox Live.
And the rationale that they couldn't go from Xbox to Xbox 3 because of the PS3 is abject bullshit. They skipped Windows 9, after all.
Nintendo almost managed to do the same to their own gaming machines with the absolutely insanely inadequate Nintendo Wii / Wii U decision making.
As an engineer and a consumer / customer, I simply cannot understand why there's a need to complicate things.
You have a Thing, right? It sells, right? You develop the next Thing? Great! Call it Thing 2. Instant success.
I wonder why car manufacturers don't operate like that. They might add a number to the model (e.g. "Golf IV"), but it will always be advertised as "The new VW Golf".
What would've happened if Nintendo simply would've advertised "The new Nintendo Switch"?
Never thought about that, but now it's an interesting thought experiment.
In the world of cars, industrial design
is the version number. Beyond that, VW just wants to sell their latest Golf to whomever is buying a new hatchback today. End of strategy.
Numbering helps sell electronics because it makes it clear that your old phone/console is old and "needs" upgrading. It's also critical for selling software exclusive to a certain hardware generation.
prmoustache19 hours ago
[-] Many people replace their car on a regular basis because it is considered a wear item.
With computer/console, you have to pretend the devicethey are still enjoying is obsolete to invent a need to replace it
I think they made like three games for that one.
reply▲Imagine how much more money Sony could have made if they called their latest game console Playstation Ø
reply▲Playstation half-diminished, a.k.a
Playstation mi7(b5)/"minor seven flat five"
reply▲PetitPrince12 minutes ago
[-] Fortunately while Squarenix is still important to Playtstation (and Tetsuya Nomura to Squarenix), it's not the juggernaut it once was in the early 2000.
(for those who don't get it: Tetsuya Nomura is a director at Squarenix and known (amongst other) for its Kingdom Heart series who ends up with word salad title such as "Kingdom Hearts HD 2.8 Final Chapter Prologue" or "Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days")
Funny that you used that symbol, as it would have been a fantastically bad choice for clarity in product naming. I'm going to assume that you're German speaking and think of it as meaning "average".
In my head it would have been the "Playstation Island", while for most of the world it would probably have been the "Playstation Empty Set".
>Except that (I believe) "just a PC" was a bit offputting for a lot of people - when you buy a PC you can't just turn it on and play video games, especially not after Microsoft's shenanigans.
Steam deck is "just a PC" as well, which can be turned on to immediately play video games.
Thanks to its reputation, the masses will trust the Steam Machine to do this much.
Valve know what they're doing.
That machine would be very different from my gaming PC however. I could use it exactly like a console, which is a different use case than a desktop PC.
reply▲badsectoracula19 hours ago
[-] I have a Steam Deck. All you have to do to use it like a desktop PC is to connect a cheap hub with power delivery, HDMI and USB ports for keyboard and mouse, then boot into KDE Plasma which is a regular desktop environment.
Honestly, my SD has seen more use as a stationary PC than a handheld :-P
This is a good comment, I don’t understand the downvotes.
Anything that makes the PC gaming experience more like a console is good. This is the first gaming PC that I could actually justify putting in the living room.
>> when you buy a PC you can't just turn it on and play video games, especially not after Microsoft's shenanigans.
In like, what way? You can "just" boot up a new Windows PC, install some games and play them straight away. Do you mean the fact that you now have to log into a Microsoft account first? Because if yes - SteamOS also requires you to log in before you can use it.
> I'm honestly surprised nobody else tried a "boot to game library" PC
Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, Atari, Sega...
They intentionally choose to brand their personal computers poorly to coerce their customers into giving up control of their computers. That doesn't make their computers any less personal, unless they are using it to serve other people.
Valve had to make an entire operating system to make this the case for steam games.
A lot of these capabilities would rely on windows, sleeping and resuming the system thats entirely the purview of the OS.
And Microsoft just doesn't care.
Microsoft had to make an entire operating system to make this the case for running Xbox games. Sony had to make an entire operating system to make this work for PlayStation games. I don't really know why that's significant.
reply▲Valve did not write Linux from scratch or something...
reply▲> Valve had to make an entire operating system
A Linux distribution. Which is often done by one person. Zero snark intended.
Microsoft’s core competency is a general purpose operating system that can be used for anything and work with infinite combinations of hardware.
The fact that you can almost, sort of use a Windows PC as a gaming console, even with all the headaches that come with it, is something of a miracle.
The goal with consoles is not to force people to give up control of their computers, it’s to create the best possible gaming appliance, which consoles succeed at.
reply▲What is the difference between an appliance and a computer?
reply▲Speaking of electronic devices, an appliance is generally locked down, and the manufacturer limits the number of use cases. You end up with something that is not a general-purpose computer, even though many use the same hardware as a computer would.
A game console is a classic appliance. You turn it on and see your current game running or a selection of games to play and you can start playing a game with zero intermediate steps.
The Steam Deck and Steam Box are designed as appliance emulators—they boot and by default operate in appliance mode. They can provide the same exact experience as a console if you use them as designed. They are also general-purpose computers, if you wish to step out of console mode.
The easiest way to see the difference is to take a desktop PC, plug it into your living room TV set, and try to play games on it.
reply▲Can you tell me what the difference is?
reply▲Uh
* two major platforms on PC and one of em doesn’t sport a Big Picture mode
* the other store does nasty tricks like never terminate a game process completely when you launch their titles through the other platform (very obvious w/ Alan Wake 2)
* other store’s titles doesn’t have this problem if I use Playnite as the TV frontend, but Playnite is a giant security vulnerability waiting to happen cause you need 3rd party plugins to emulate Steam Big Picture
* entire swatches of games that act funny with Steam Input or have incomplete configurations and I don’t feel like figuring that out just to play Backrooms
* Windows window management when using Steam Big Picture w/ controller is bad, b/c lots of desktop things will steal focus (hello Rockstar Games and EA)
* oh yeah, mandatory LAUNCHERS
* Try to play Mass Effect Legendary Edition on a TV with a controller; no really, try
* don’t even get me started on OOTB auto HDR config for almost any random TV with PS5 vs dicking around with the NVIDIA control panel
* the Steam store navigation w/ controller is baaaaad in 2025, many times you won’t be able to move or select certain things.
This is an incomplete list. It actually doesn’t matter whether you have a point-by-point refutation, no non-technical person wants to deal with any of this. They want machine to take care of everything. That’s what an appliance is
(Edit: formatting)
Thank you for writing all of this so that I didn’t have to.
And the exciting thing is I’m not even aware of many of those because I don’t play the same games and use different peripherals. If I listed out all my issues many would be unique to me. There are an infinity of issues with using a PC as a console.
A random one - audio outputs and inputs randomly locking to something you aren’t actually using. Between virtual devices for streaming apps you didn’t know you installed, weird devices hidden in USB peripherals, outputs on various TVs and monitors - my sound rarely “just works” and I have to spend a lot of time in the desktop fiddling around with the system tray.
I made sure to match brand between my TV and sound system for this reason. Also reminds me: you can have wake from sleep with an Xbox controller on PC, but not any other controller, and Windows won’t wake if I turn the TV on and switch to the PC connection; consoles have done this a long time.
reply▲I'm sure someone will install OpenStep and recreate a NeXT computer 2.0
reply▲GNUStep is still going.
reply▲If a single GNU steps in the forest, does it make a sound?
reply▲Install Previous and boot into it, voila ;)
reply▲Meanwhile Microsoft be like: we are going to ship AI to your computer, eat all the resource, lag your game despite you don't use it and neither you don't want it at all.
reply▲Fingers crossed for a smartphone next. So sick of that force fed walled garden crap from Apple and Google.
Might also help to slow down enshittification by a bit if there was a popular alternative. Maybe something like Waydroid could even ease with transition.
Damn, a smartphone made by Valve would make me splurge for more than middle-low end, for the respect they give us alone.
It just needs my banking apps, and and I'll be happy to pay for it.
spacebanana723 hours ago
[-] It's actually not that impossible, given how the DRM ecosystem trusts steam I could imagine banking apps doing the same.
Some banks might even be up for putting children's banking apps on the steam deck to start with.
Starting an application ecosystem is not trivial. Banks aren't going to rush to write a new app for an OS with such a small market presence. Banks also like and guide security features they rely on in phone apps.
reply▲spacebanana723 hours ago
[-] Yeah it would still be difficult. But I could imagine that if steam offered to give a few million to cover development costs and gave projections of 20k new customers, they might be able to convince one of the not very profitable children's fintech banks to develop for the platform.
reply▲SteamPhone sounds…… metal as fuck. I’d buy it for the name alone
reply▲Signed in just to upvote this. Amen homie
reply▲Given that the frame runs steamOS on ARM hardware, I could see something like a phone in the future.
But also, phones don't seem to be the best hardware to play PC games which is kinda the whole deal.
I maybe would see first a smaller ARM based device (like those retro consoles).
Or.. just a better experience for mobile games, if they have porting tools.
reply▲And just like that, valve will keep winning spectacularly.
reply▲ShakataGaNai13 hours ago
[-] Their "launch trailer" shows the Steam Machine running Windows.
reply▲Wasn't that the desktop mode of SteamOS?
reply▲Was going to post, exactly, this statement but found it is already spotted!
I just hope Google & Apple read, understand and follow this.
That stood out to me too but my reaction was “whatever, just another promise that won’t age well”.
reply▲This holds true for the Steam Deck, so I can't imagine why they would promise it and not follow through.
reply▲I mean I'm sure it will be true for as long as Gabe is in charge, the moment he steps away I think all bets are off, depending on who takes over after him.
reply▲>I'm so happy to read this
it rings hollow from a company whose entire bedrock for existence is DRM procedures.
does Steam still disallow accounts from playing more than one independently owned game at a time without special procedures?
Steam DRM is weak, non intrusive and optional so complain to the devs for enabling it. I rather take steam DRM than securerom or denuvo.
reply▲colordrops20 hours ago
[-] That has nothing to do with launching more than one steam game at once not being allowed.
reply▲The problem is
for now more of principle. Any DRM means you depend on Valve/Steam to continue to legally play your purchased games. If Valve has a change of heart, or of leadership, or hits a financial rough patch they can easily become a rent seeking gatekeeper. That non-intrusive DRM is the thin line between perpetually accepting Valve's conditions or playing illegally. This isn't a Valve specific problem but they get a free pass today because of all the good things they've done and the good will they're continuously showing. If this ever runs out a lot of people will be
very disappointed.
I'm not judging them "by comparison" because it's hard to look bad next to Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, etc. Just looking objectively at the situation, even if Valve was alone on the market.
“Not having drm” is also a “for now” thing. Everything is “for now”. A person being good, a corporation being bad, everything can be appended with “for now”. It’s not an argument. You look at historical actions and willingness to change. Valve has been doing business this way forever.
reply▲The difference is that "Not having DRM" means the games I bought with no DRM is still there once they enable it. For example, with GOG I download the games I buy and there's no way they can enable DRM on the copies I made.
On the other hand, if the games already have DRM and it gets worse or for whatever reason Valve goes under and you can't play your games anymore, well... you can't play any DRMed game without using whatever DRM mechanism they'll choose next.
In other words "No DRM -> DRM" and "DRM -> Worse DRM" have different outcomes.
> Valve has been doing business this way forever.
And Google's motto was "Don't be evil" and for a good chunk of their life they weren't. That worked out well, did it? I'm not saying Valve will do a 180 and squander all the good faith it acquired. I'm just saying it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
>And Google's motto was "Don't be evil"
People here like to pretend google wasn't evil from the start.
https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...
But you are right there is always the possibility they turn to shit. The advantage is that compared to other DRMs it is trivial to break even by yourself and all steam games are already freely available cracked so if they do just torrent them.
>>For example, with GOG I download the games I buy and there's no way they can enable DRM on the copies I made.
There is no way for Steam to enable DRM on a copy of a game you made after you downloaded it from Steam. It's a weird argument to use really - once you copied the data elsewhere neither platform can do anything with it.
I'm not sure I'm understanding how Steam DRM works then. Does it phone home? Or is it tied to a particular device? How is this verified?
In the first case they can just refuse to let you use your copy when you ask for permission.
If the DRM is enabled, the game does a simple "Is the game available in the user's library?" and steams says yes or no.
If the game didn't have DRM enabled, no check is made. Copy the game folder elsewhere, without steam install and it should launch.
Devs can enable the DRM afterward, but your copy won't be locked.
But even then, if valve goes bad guy, the DRM is simple enough to be broken, and there is no double check or something preventing you from playing (unlike Denuvo which encrypts the game and has multiple separate checks for the DRM).
> If the DRM is enabled, the game does a simple "Is the game available in the user's library?" and steams says yes or no.
So if one day Steam (more broadly, Valve) says "nope" you're locked out of your game, correct?
Yes (that's the point of a DRM), but like I said, the DRM is easily broken. Some games can also still use steam features when cracked (like joining lobbies, inviting friends, etc), and it's the same "crack" for every game (not withstanding other DRM the game may have).
With Valve, I'm more concerned of not being able to download the games if they go under, than the DRM on the games I have. Over time, the Steam DRM has also been more permissive than before, as I can now play my "family's" games and they can play mine.
Part of the apparently forgotten but huge amount of work that went into making digital storefront for games that people trust to work was that Valve publicly talked about verifying things such as a procedure to globally strip DRM from all games, in case Steam was to cease operations.
reply▲Indeed that's what I remember too. So like I said, the risk is more not being able to download the games than the Steam DRM being there.
reply▲There are a few DRM-free Steam games but most devs on Steam enable the DRM. This isn't Steam's fault but Steam is holding the reins of that access. It works great now, so smooth you can't tell there's DRM. But at the end of the day most of my collection is at the whims of Valve.
I'm personally concerned about what happens when Gabe retires or shuffles off this mortal coil, and his replacement comes with a "fresh" revenue idea. He's a one of a kind visionary leader, it's not a sure thing that his successor is the same. I've been baited and switched so many times in the past few decades that it's hard to blindly trust any company for more than the very immediate future.
>I'm personally concerned about what happens when Gabe retires
From the couple documentaries I have seen over the years it already seems like he is basically retired, only working on things he is interested in like the brain interface stuff. I think as long as valve stays a private company the enshitification will be limited.
> he is basically retired
He owns Valve so semi-retired still means he at least keeps the spirit going. This can't last forever.
> “Not having drm” is also a “for now” thing
What do you mean? My GOG offline installers should work fine with or without internet or GOG services for as long as the binaries can be executed. I can pass them on to my grandkids, if they'll ever be interested. You can own games, music, videos. You can do what you want with them, sell them, give them to family or friends. Any non-dystopian interpretation of DRM means you get to keep what you own. Changes don't apply to already owned things. When "renting" changes can apply retroactively to everything.
> everything can be appended with “for now”
Only if you're looking to be unreasonable and make any argument irrelevant. But we're trying to have a constructive conversation not shoot down everything with generic, nihilistic arguments.
You wan to look at history but so selectively that it only supports your argument. Few companies stayed faithful to the customer without fault especially when the visionary leader and owner retired, or they hit hard times. The norm is for them to pull a bait and switch as soon as the profits looked too good to pass. When Gabe is out it could go either way, slowly or all at once.
You can now have steam families and have two members play different games from the same library. Assuming you were using two machines you could just have a second account as a family member and play both. Or do you have a crazy beefy computer and are trying to run two different games on one machine?
reply▲Not really. It still has a library level lock. What Steam Families has enabled is to play games from each other's libraries at the same time. For example, if my account has a game A, and your has a game B, I can play the game B while you play the game A. This used to be disabled before.
You still cannot play a game C from my library while I play the game A from my own library.
The only way to be able to play any game you want would be to create a separate account for each game.
> You still cannot play a game C from my library while I play the game A from my own library.
I just tried it, and I could.
You can go offline on one of the machines (but yes, it is very annoying).
reply▲> does Steam still disallow accounts from playing more than one independently owned game at a time without special procedures?
Yes. I just tried launching one game on Steam Deck and another one on my desktop and it showed a message:
> Error - Steam: You are logged in on another computer already playing Railbound. Launching Clutchtime™: Basketball Deckbuilder here will disconnect the other session from Steam.
No.
That restriction has been gone for a few years now.
I can run rimworld and quasimorph via steam at the same time, as an example.
Only if you do it on the same computer. The restriction is still there if you try to, for example, run one game on your PC and another on Steam Deck.
reply▲technically you can easily bypass it by using two accounts and use family sharing with the extra account
reply▲I agree. DRM sucks badly. I'd argue that it's a bit of a compliance thing though. Eg publisher lawyers saying DRM is needed, given that there doesn't seem to be much push from Steam for anything "draconian". At least it is for public broadcasters having online archives that also sometimes have DRM even where it isn't actually required (self-produced stuff).
However, there is still a huge difference between buying hardware that literally "jails" you and force feeds you DRM and a system where even in the marketing says you can completely tear away all of that without jailbreaks, etc. and without stuff being super fiddly.
Is going offline a special procedure?
reply▲This is my number one beef with steam. It's such a big thorn on a rose.
reply▲https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steamframe [1]
> Steam Frame is a PC, and runs SteamOS powered by a Snapdragon® 8 Series Processor. With 16GB of RAM, Steam Frame supports stand-alone play on a growing number of both VR and non-VR games without needing to stream from your PC.
So Steam + Proton works on aarch64? Is this something already available/supported, or is this an announcement?
[1] Steam Frame, which is the VR Headset releasing alongside the Steam Machine. Dedicated discussion here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45903325
reply▲reply▲I believe this work is a continuation of the work the asahi linux people did to get games working on M-series macs. It seems Alyssa Rosenzweig works at valve as a contractor. Super cool work. Some seriously talented folks.
reply▲Alyssa works for Intel now, so I doubt she'll be doing much contract work for Valve anymore...
reply▲What a jump, I'd be curious to hear first why anyone would prefer Intel above pretty much anything else, but also secondly how the actual experience difference between the two after working at both, must be a very strong contrast between them.
reply▲On her website it says she is working on GPU drivers there - I wouldn't be surprised if that's something she greatly enjoys and Intel gave her then opportunity to work on official, production shipping drivers instead of reverse engineered third party drivers.
reply▲If I were Intel, this sounds like a great person to give an R&D skunkworks dream job.
Potential lottery ticket win, they are available for consulting internally anywhere that can add value, and they're not working for anyone else.
Maybe she was given a huge signing bonus to avoid her working on making X86 irrelevant? Combined with perhaps some interesting project to work on for real.
reply▲Personally I don't think ARM can make x86 irrelevant.
I believe low wattage SOCs can make traditional desktop hardware irrelevant (ish), but I think ARM is orthogonal to that.
I imagine there's also some challenging work that would be fun to dig into. Being the person who can clean up Intel's problems would be quite a reputation to have.
reply▲There’s a real limit on what level of problem one engineer can fix, regardless of how strong they are. Carmack at Meta is an example of this, but there are many. Woz couldn’t fix Apple’s issues, etc.
A company sufficiently scaled can largely only be fixed by the CEO, and often not even then.
I'm sure most would stay at valve if they could. The just do so much contract work, and I'm sure a stable job at intel is better pay, benefits and stability.
reply▲Intel has a reputation of producing relatively high quality drivers for Linux.
reply▲Would it shock you to hear that many/most engineers don't pick an employer based on brand reputation?
reply▲Would it shock you to hear that famous engineers with their own personal brand power have different opportunities and motivations than many/most engineers?
reply▲Their point is even made stronger by your comment. Engineers of this type don't experience megacorps like regular engineers. They usually have a non-standard setup and more leeway and less bureaucracy overhead. Which means brand isn't the biggest thing, the specific projects and end user impact are.
reply▲usually a combination of money/benefits/locale is the answer to this question
reply▲https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/1493This is fun, just found this issue from 2018 which was closed with this comment:
> Hello @setsunati, this is not a realistic objective for Proton. As @rkfg, mentions wine for ARM does not magically make x86 based games work on ARM cpus.
> Even if Steam were brought to ARM, and an x86 emulation layer was run underneath wine, the amount of games that could run fast and without hitting video driver quirks is small enough not to entertain this idea any time in the near future.
It's mentioned in this issue https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Proton/issues/8136 which was closed Oct 2024 with this comment by kisak-valve:
> Hello @Theleafir1, similar to #1493, this is not a realistic objective for Proton any time in the near future.
reply▲Finally some clarification on what valve time actually is.
reply▲What do you mean? Could you share your insight?
reply▲reply▲>"Coming Soon" (January 10, 2017) | December 20, 2024 | 7th Issue of Team Fortress Comics: The Days Have Worn Away
Out of all the IPs Valve owns, somehow it's TF2 that got a story conclusion and it couldn't have been more perfect.
This kind of thing is what makes me trust Valve.
reply▲Did someone say half life 3?
reply▲Every time someone says "Half-Life 3" it's delayed another day from announcement. That's why everyone right now is talking about this "HLX" thing...
reply▲Valve deciding to support Arm-based gaming is HUGE news
reply▲reply▲That was a very higher quality YT video. It's clearly written by someone who knows when they're talking about even though it's mostly non-technical
reply▲nowadays FEX works better than box86 in my experience, on 'desktop' linux at least
reply▲Have to wonder if there is a world where Proton comes to macOS.
reply▲Pretty unlikely as long as Apple refuses to support Vulkan. Even if they did, the whole Proton project is about Valve controlling their own destiny rather than being chained to someone else's platform, and Apple is just another Microsoft in that regard.
reply▲> Pretty unlikely as long as Apple refuses to support Vulkan.
You would only translate into Vulcan when running on an OS that uses Vulcan as the native graphics API.
On a Mac, Wine translates directly into Metal.
Valve could implement a separate Metal backend for Proton, what I'm saying is they probably wouldn't want to spend their resources on that.
reply▲Couldn't Apple spend their resources on that? Proton is open-source, and Apple's the one with the incentive to have more "prestige" AAA game devs to parade around during keynotes.
reply▲Apple could but they're not interested in non-native games, they want native ports or nothing. As I discussed a few posts over, Apple went to the trouble of developing a DirectX compatibility layer, but then told game developers they're not allowed to use it for anything besides evaluating whether their game would run well enough on Mac hardware. If they go ahead with a port then Apple still expects them to do it all the hard way.
It's textbook "perfect is the enemy of good" because yeah, compatibility layers have overhead, native is better, but if you insist on native everything but can't get devs on board then you just end up with no games.
Exactly.
Compare Steam Machine (2014) to Steam Machine (2026). The difference this time around is Proton support, and you can pretty easily see the hype on the internet for the new version, even after the original version was mocked relentlessly in some circles for having "no games."
Target apple and in 5 years your binary wont work anymore anyways
reply▲Well, some games like Civ V still manage to work! But they actually had to port it to 64-bit, otherwise it'd have the fate of all other 32-bit macOS games unfortunately...
reply▲> compatibility layers have overhead
Also, how could Apple kill the old software that is better than the new, if it doesn't control the emulation? This way they don't have to even have 10% of the features to force you to buy again.
cough /final cut/ cough
Apple could but Apple would rather die they allow something to work cross platform.
reply▲I think they are also absolutely addicted to cruddy pay to win mobile games and they don’t want to give up that sweet drip feed of IAP that they get a 30% cut of… which is substantial.
For funsies, try searching App Store apps and find a way to filter out results for apps with IAP. Nope!
(Source: me, who spent time at a mobile gaming company as we figured out how to continuously optimize our funnels so that some rich dudes in Qatar could continue to spend $40K a month on useless cosmetics.)
I think that filter is called Apple Arcade but of course it's not free.
reply▲It would make sense, but Apple has large amounts of disdain for people having
fun with their products. This evidenced by the large amounts of engineering they've put into very large, capable, and efficient GPUs, only to squander them on rendering web pages and liquid glass.
They released Apple Vision Pro with no ability to play popular PC games on it.
A VR headset. That doesn't play games.
mikkupikku23 hours ago
[-] Apple thinks PC games are for gross nerds and would rather not sully their fashion image by associating with gamer any more than is absolutely necessary. So no, Apple won't be doing that.
reply▲reply▲The porting toolkit is more or less Apple's version of Proton:
"evaluate your unmodified Windows executable on Apple silicon using the evaluation environment for Windows games"
A bunch of games just ship the Windows executable and some version of that translation layer in their MacOS App bundle
That is step one, see WWDC sessions on the matter.
reply▲Apple and gaming is like oil and water, it'll never happen.
They'll spend billions on a handful of (late) AAA ports for macOS every 4-5 years, and then go radio silent again.
Potato Potatoh. I think Apple is the largest game platform in the world, or ate least iOS is.
reply▲Nope because they could not gouge developes with pricy tools, steep registration fees and cutthroat slice of their sales on Apple's app market.
reply▲That's because D3DMetal already exists. Games run like they did on Proton ~4-5 years ago, some games better.
I mostly no longer boot my Linux machine anymore to play games.
The anticheat story is probably not as good but I don't play any AAA games, so I wouldn't know.
That's great as long as it works, but D3DMetal is a proprietary, closed-source Apple library so you can and probably will get rug-pulled by Apple neglecting or deprecating it as their priorities change. They've only ever positioned it as an "evaluation environment" for developers to estimate how their game will run before going ahead with a native Mac port, not as something for end-users to play Windows games with, so if developers don't bite then they'll have no reason to keep working on it.
reply▲Proton is a downstream fork of Wine, and upstream Wine already directly supports playing Windows games on Mac using D3DMetal.
You don't need Proton's Wine fork when you can just use Wine.
That doesn't change the fact that D3DMetal is closed-source. Wine just links to it.
There's also DXMT which is open-source, but doesn't support DX12.
Right now, the user experience with Crossover is that you have to manage the whole thing of installing Windows Steam in a Wine bottle, then installing games within that second Steam installation, then dealing with the fact that Steam doesn't seem to like having two instances running on the same computer (my native Steam loses connectivity every time I start the Crossover instance).
Wanting Proton on Mac isn't about that specific fork of Wine, it's shorthand for wanting the user experience that Valve gives you on Linux.
As a comparison, before proton, you could run steam with wine under linux. Wine directx implementation was sufficient to make a quite a few games work just fine, but the experience was atrocious. You either had to install a new instance of steam per game or install everything under one bottle which didn't work well as you had to tweak the install per grame. Personally I used it just for one or two of games that I really wanted to play and could actually run outsisde of steam after installation.
In comparison the proton experience is seamless.
> Games run like they did on Proton ~4-5 years ago, some games better.
Proton previously only worked on x86, so there was not the additional overhead of x86 to ARM translation.
Proton on ARM will have the same performance constraints as Wine on ARM Macs.
They could also use MoltenVK
reply▲As far as I understand, there's actually an intermediate driver on macOS that implements Vulkan on top of Metal, similar to how Proton implements Direct3D on top of Vulkan.
The available low-level API is Metal, and the existing software stack is written for Vulkan, so it makes more sense to implement Vulkan than to write a new Metal backend.
Wouldn't it be Apple's benefit to get more gaming on MacOS? Their goals might align with Steam.
Apple's native gaming story has been similar failure as their AI and Siri ventures. Time to fix it.
Valve seems to break free form depending on someone else’s walled garden.
Apple seeks to builds its own walled garden.
Their interests do not align. Apple doesn’t want portable software on their platform, they want exclusive software.
Hard to swallow.
Every day I sit down at a Mac for work and proceed to launch VS Code, Zed, Outlook, DBeaver, Excel, Teams, LogSeq, Syncthing, Chrome, Firefox, LM Studio and Docker. I prefer MacOS but basically all of my application workflow exists for Windows verbatim and if using browser versions of the MS apps, on Linux too.
Same! I main macos, love the hardware, but I keep a very close eye on Linux (asahi, omarchy etc) in case Apple gets any more toxic, and I am forced to jump ship to something else, and that something else won't be windoze.
The last straw with MacOS was when my US bank cards expired, I could no longer update apps I already paid for, I could no longer install apps I already paid for. Everything was held hostage, could not install FREE apps via the appstore on macos or on ipad.
That day my eyes opened to what Apple has become.
You simply cannot trust Apple with your computing future. They're a fashion company now.
and plus one here!
I don't know, I like my mac workflow but irritation and aggravation have crept in more frequently of late. Last week I was told a binary that clang++ had just produced from my own code could not be run because Apple couldn't check whether it was safe..
And what to make of power users complaining bitterly about Tahoe & liquid glass etc?
I'm hanging on to Ventura for now.
reply▲Apple is big enough to not need gaming and their philosophy is to have the most control possible on their ecosystem and to be the most closed possible. For them it makes no sense to encourage steam to be big on mac (except as a way to jumpstart their own system before closing it). And it is especially true now that steam is making machines, so is a direct competitor
reply▲True, forgot about that. That said, Apple does have D3DMetal. A man can dream that they eventually opensource that.
reply▲I mean, theoretically they could backport the D3DMetal wine driver from the Game Porting Toolkit. Also I remember there was some early preliminary work done on stock wine a few years ago.
Honestly right now there is so much overlapping between all the wine "flavors" and forks available (Stock wine, Crossover, Proton/Proton-GE/Wine-GE, Game Porting Toolkit, winevdm, probably a few more I'm forgetting right now) I'm not entirely sure how many features have been independently implemented already multiple times.
I believe that was part of the original plan for Proton, but with the success of the Steam Deck that got shelved and it moved to a focus purely on Linux.
I don't think it's ever likely to return any time soon, but it'd be cool if it did. Valve seemingly have very little interest in macOS at the moment.
CodeWeavers work closely with Valve and the Wine project to improve compatibility with games, and Apple's own Game Porting Toolkit is based on CodeWeavers work on Wine too. So all the pieces are there in theory.
Proton is just a fork of Wine that also translates from Microsoft's DirectX graphics API to the native graphics API of Linux (Vulcan) so you can run Windows games on Linux.
The new thing Proton is adding is translation from x86 to ARM.
Macs already have Wine, an x86 to ARM translation layer (Rosetta), and an Apple provided translation layer from Microsoft's DirectX to the Mac's native Metal graphics API (D3DMetal) which is integrated into upstream Wine.
I mentioned elsewhere — Right now, using Wine/Crossover is a hassle. Wanting "Proton on Mac" isn't about that specific fork of Wine, it's shorthand for wanting the user experience that Valve gives you on Linux.
reply▲I did catch that the streaming stick for the Valve Frame in the announcement video was plugged into a computer that looked an awful lot like a Mac.
reply▲Yes! I rewound the video to double check
But honestly at this point I’m destined to buy a Steam Machine despite having a hefty Mac that could do gaming if only it were possible. Valve have been amazing about open computing and Apple are basically the enemy at this point.
It makes me wonder about what using steam machine for all computing might look like, as the new home of open computing and gaming.
I wonder if the video team uses Mac, and just shot a quick clip with the closest USB port on hand.
reply▲Just to clarify that's for the Steam Frame VR Headset. The Steam Machine PC uses an AMD Zen 4 x86 CPU.
reply▲The headset isn't natively running games, right?
reply▲It can, but it'll be a small subset of stuff. You'll probably be able to just hit install + play on most things, but it'll have a "Steam Frame Verified" program like the Steam Deck's.
reply▲Yes, in the same way that a Quest 3 can run BeatSaber and other similar calibre games.
For more demanding games it's designed to stream from a PC.
Wow this looks great. Foveated streaming, great resolution, wireless, 144hz, looks much more comfortable... As much as I want this, I feel like it'll end up being a really cool thing that just sits on the shelf.
Edit: foveated streaming, not rendering
It looks good until I reached one bit:
> Passthrough - Monochrome passthrough via outward facing cameras
This is an outright bone-headed move that I can't believe Valve is making. Only having monochrome cameras means augmented reality is basically a non-starter.
AR has a lot of potential. I literally bought a Meta Quest 3 just for PianoVision [0] when I already had a Valve Index. I would love to see some sort of AR-based game you could play outdoors. But with only monochrome vision, that's gonna be awful.
[0] https://youtu.be/apwZTV-Rg0s
The videos I've seen about the Frame all call out the front expansion port, which "Valve says ... offers a dual 2.5Gbps MIPI camera interface and also supports a one-lane Gen 4 PCIe data port for other peripherals."[1]
That's plenty to support color passthrough as a physical addon, which in turn makes me think that, like with the OLED Deck, we'll see a Frame with built-in color-passthrough later as a different premium SKU when/if they justify it.
1: https://www.uploadvr.com/valve-steam-frame-official-announce...
I expect that a premium headset is in the works, but they probably didn't want to complicate what is effectively a console launch with multiple SKUs. They'll probably offer a 'Frame Pro' with wider FOV and better cameras a year or two down the line, possibly at the same time as the Steam Deck refresh we all know is coming.
reply▲I'm led to believe there's only so much FOV you can get out of pancake lenses? This is already spoecced to be the best pancake FOV seen to this date.
reply▲terribleperson9 hours ago
[-] It's conceivable they could opt for better fidelity over more FOV (this would certainly support the 'play 2d games on your headset' push), but I wouldn't put it past Valve to be experimenting with alternative lens designs.
reply▲AR is really cool but it seems like a better fit for premium VR headsets right now. At a given price and assuming other specs are fixed, monochrome cameras offer higher refresh rate. I'm hoping this will help the frame offer better tracking.
reply▲Sad fact is that nobody outside tiny niche-cases in engineering really gives a shit about XR. The current round of meta-branded glasses don't have features worth the price.
When it's light & small enough to be a pair of glasses and more than just the expensive but limited gimmick that the form is currently, then it'll be world-changing. It's close, but it's not there yet.
The thing is, Google Glass was announced in 2013, 13 years ago. Yes, hardware and software advancements have been huge in the meantime but the form factor is so restrictive that we're probably still 10 years away from the "iPhone moment" of XR/AR. Especially since hardware is in a weird place where all the cutting edge stuff is more or less made by a single company.
reply▲To be fair, I have zero interest in AR so I am glad I will not have to pay for it when buying the headset.
PianoVision sounds like a really bad way to learn the piano. There are already pianos/midi controller that have the abilities to light up the keys you are supposed to play if you really needed that. But that is a gimmick that you might use the first few sessions and then never again. Same with PianoVision.
Generally, is is so much better to start with music notation from day one. I regret starting with all the piano learning apps because they only have been holding me back.
some just want to play Here Comes the Sun and not learn proper technique to go above grade 8 esoteric stuff without feeling pain bc they are playing for hours a day
reply▲Has PianoVision been working for you to learn piano?
reply▲> AR has a lot of potential
Name one that has to do with with this box competing with xbox and playstation in people's living room.
I recommend preparing a drink or two and loading up VRchat and joining one of the rave club groups. Check out the metaverse zuck wishes he ran.
reply▲VRChat is one of the most socially dysfunctional online platforms I've ever used
reply▲I haven't ventured in myself but I love reading people's anecdotes if you got any handy.
reply▲I could see Steam creating the OASIS
reply▲Any idea if Gabe likes Rush?
reply▲I tried VRChat once or twice but never seemed to have found any fun places/groups to hang out that weren't obsessing about anime/manga most of the time. Anyone here on HN have better suggestions of worlds/groups or where to even look?
reply▲There are groups that are more focused on music (DnB, dubstep, other festival-friendly genres), focused on dancing, focused on drinking games, focused on world-hopping, etc. I'm into the underground rave vibe, so for that there's VRC Party Hub, which is a guy who runs a discord who befriends as many clubs as he can find in that scene, and imports their schedules/announcements channels into a nightly report of all known events.
https://x.com/VRChatPartyHub
My NVIDIA Shield is getting old and slow. I can see this as a good replacement, because it supports HDMI CEC, so you can control it with your remote control.
Install Plex, JellyFin, FreeTube et.al. to it and you have a nice open source TV box.
You also get 4k gaming from Steam, GOG, Epic etc. and you get emulators. I've been wanting to build a computer like this, but CEC is hard to find and the adapters that exist don't support full 4k resolution.
The specs for this steam machine say HDMI 2.0, in the past I used a pulse8 HDMI CEC USB dongle with a computer which was also HDMI 2.0 iirc. I was using a 1080p projector with it but their website claims 4k support:
https://www.pulse-eight.com/p/104/usb-hdmi-cec-adapterI recently replaced a shield with an Ugoos Am6b+ running coreELEC, which works okay and supports some stuff the shield doesn't but I miss being able to run some android apps easily. I wonder if the new steam machine will support DV.
matthewrobertso23 hours ago
[-] If you want that you won't want this steam machine, HDMI 2.0 can do 4K60 HDR at 10-bit, but only with chroma subsampling (4:2:2 or 4:2:0) (not full 4:4:4).
reply▲Maybe they've cracked the code with the dongle? Usually, you either have to invest both time and money into setting up the perfect streaming network, deal with annoying cables or resign yourself to inferior on-device game versions. The ergonomics matter more than you'd think.
But if it's a very easy plug-n-play type deal to run SteamVR games (and on Linux!), that's a huge ergonomic improvement. Don't have to think too much about whether everything is running correctly or what-have-you.
If it's just plug and play and works well, it'd be brilliant. I have experimented a lot with a couple or wifi dongles I had lying around and setting up a hotspot, but honestly I could never get it to work well.
Streaming VR content is just so sensitive. I have a good cabled network but even a simple switch introduced noticeable lag spikes. In the end I have a separate router that I just connect straight to my PC, and then I share my wifi connection through my PC to that network. A whole silly setup just to minimize latency and packet loss. If that could be replaced with a simple USB dongle I'd be amazed.
Hikikomori14 hours ago
[-] Bought another AP to use on 6ghz band, still alone there, works perfectly for my oculus. If they can do it with a dongle that would make it much simpler for regular people.
reply▲I lowkey hope it's good enough for coding. Really wanted to try out the xreal glasses, but multiple people said they aren't crisp enough for text.
reply▲I can't wait until the tech reaches this stage. Infinite desktop space, surrounded by text and terminals. It will be so hard to unplug.
reply▲EMACS. EMACS EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK.
reply▲There are already headsets with decent text fidelity, but IMO the problem is now on the host side. I tried to get an XR desktop env running (Stardust
https://stardustxr.org/) on Linux but ran into graphical issues. The Windows ecosystem is much better though.
I use Xreal Air Pros for gaming and sometimes working if I'm mobile. Resolution isn't great, but I find them better than looking at a small-ish laptop screen or the Steam Deck screen. You can definitely read text on them, but maybe not small text. It also helps to have prescription inserts.
And now I'm curious if the Steam Frame allows inserts or fits well with glasses on.
resolution is in the 2000x2000 range so don't count on it.
reply▲2160 per eye- so a bit more than that in width… I’m thinking if you do 2x pixel density it could look pretty clean. But that’s not a whole lot of real estate… that being said, i remember when 1280x1024 was incredible and that’s the same ballpark as what you’d get.
reply▲This is not directly comparable with display resolution since actually you are looking for PPI per degree of vision to judge on clarity.
reply▲yencabulator20 hours ago
[-] That's 2160 pixels over ~110 degrees field of view. How many degrees of your view does your monitor cover? The density comes out very different.
reply▲I don't think there is foveated rendering. There is foveated
encoding, when game streaming.
Looks like a very competent headset indeed though! Nice combo of fast streaming that can prioritize well with foveated encoding, and hopefully a pretty nice malleable capable standalone headset too.
The eye tracking data is supposedly being made available to other software on PC (and presumably the headset as well), so foveated rendering should be possible but is a software problem.
reply▲jasonjmcghee16 hours ago
[-] I did more research. It does indeed support foveated rendering. Developers do need to implement this for their game, but it supports it.
discussed here: https://youtu.be/b7q2CS8HDHU?t=1074
"For foveated rendering, [the developers] have that option, but it's not compulsory"
Mainly check out the Valve-sponsored FEX project.
reply▲When's the preorders happening?
reply▲It also looks like they've launched a new version of the Steam Controller.
reply▲I'm more confused that it's running SteamOS which is supposedly Arch based, but arch doesn't officially support ARM. You have to use the ArchLinuxARM distro for that, which is less maintained. They got to be doing something off label for that.
reply▲> arch doesn't officially support ARM
Doesn't really mean much to Valve as SteamOS vendor:
- linux kernel supports aarch64 just fine
- user space supports aarach64 just as fine
- Valve provides runtime for games (be it via proton or native linux), so providing aarch64 builds is up to them anyway
The main point of ArchLinuxARM is providing compatible binaries, which isn't something hard to do in-house.
Even if they are, Valve has a long track record of contributing back to open source projects.
reply▲Proton was a community led effort years back. The guy who started that is now an employee at Valve (IIRC) working on Proton, but also getting paid :)
reply▲Arch doesn't support ARM at all. Arm is somebody else hobby project.
reply▲isn't Steam Deck arm based?
reply▲No. It's an AMD x64 CPU married to an onboard GPU.
reply▲I think this is a form of an announcement but without many details. I'm curious to see how well it works
reply▲Pretty much the only reason I boot to Windows anymore is to play games with my kids and family. The direction of this thing is dangerously close to being all I'd care about from a desktop computer.
If Valve pivoted into making a well-supported laptop with good hardware that ran Linux and played games...
Like other commenters, I also recently made the switch. Figured I would dual-boot windows but have never needed to boot it back up again.
ProtonDB is a goldmine when a game doesn't work. Oh, and switching from Nvidia GPU to AMD GPU seems to have worked great to get games to "just work".
one limitation for Bazzite for instance would be some titles that require anti-cheating won't work but just like OP, only use case I have for windows is gaming and running some banking app which won't work on non-Windows device
love to see more and more users realize they can game just fine on linux
It's time to stop buying such games and send game studios a signal that we won't tolerate rootkits and/or closed platforms. Anti-cheats should run server-side, or better yet, servers should be community-operated. I would probably bought BF6, but since I exclusively use Arch, EA lost a sale -- too bad for them there are thousands of other games that work flawlessly on Linux.
reply▲I want to echo a previous comment of mine on this topic:
With the rise of mainstream-compatible, as in a standard gamer can get them running and use them with a similar frustration level as Win11, Linux first systems like steam deck, steam machine and even steam frame, there is a real, even if currently low, pressure for big publisher to support Linux/SteamOS. I somewhat hope/fear there will be a blessed SteamOS version that supports anticheats enough for publishers like EA, Epic and Riot to accept the risk.
Rumour has it that after the Crowdstrike fiasco future versions of Windows won't allow kernel level modules. I can only hope this is true if it kills off the main reason titles don't work on Linux as a side effect. I'd have bought BF6, some version of EAFC, and more.
reply▲samtheDamned9 hours ago
[-] Unfortunately the rumors were misinformed. Microsoft's official response states that while they will be moving towards allowing more security functions to be run outside of the kernel, "It remains imperative that kernel access remains an option for use by cybersecurity products to allow continued innovation and the ability to detect and block future cyberthreats" [1].
1: https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2024/09/12/takin...
DanielHB25 minutes ago
[-] Or like the EU won't change their stance on the matter...
reply▲It's not going to happen. If anything they would just add functionality so things like Crowdstrike don't need to run in ring-0 but they won't remove the access.
reply▲> Anti-cheats should run server-side [...].
This. It should actually be easier to catch offenders - you're leaning on hundreds of years of applied statistics, rather than racing versus sneakier exploits.
> [...] or better yet, servers should be community-operated.
I'm conflicted about this one. I've wanted to host a game server at home since 2003, but couldn't get a public, static IP. The landscape hasn't changed much, perhaps even for the worse: a Quake 3 dedicated server could be run from a mid-range laptop while playing the game; Minecraft and Factorio (both great games with fantastic communities), by that measure, have unreasonable hardware requirements.
So, you pay a host.
OTOH there's many ways for a studio to build and operate an ethical live service. Check out Warframe: it's 100% F2P, the main source of revenue is cosmetics, and it's easy for people to gift stuff (whales spill their pockets reinforcing community goodwill, rather than gambling).
It's best when a game offers both, e.g. Brood War. StarCraft II isn't "simply" dying; lack of LAN play actively hinders on-site, professional tournaments. And we can do nothing about it.
There's lots of neat tricks for DHT peer discovery and NAT hole punching these days. Wouldn't be hard to make a local game sever manager that lets you share join information to your friends and have it automatically resolve all the networking needed with no VPN, static IP, or DNS required.
reply▲I normally recommend Tailscale, and that's a great starting point, for games that do not support any of the neat tricks natively. The problem: it's more difficult to build a community around that. You're introducing a point of friction, and a lot of newcomers will bounce. It's difficult enough to guide a non-technical friend, and Tailscale is top among the absolute easiest solutions.
reply▲How would a server-side anti-cheat work? You wouldn't be able to detect ESP or other information leaks. Best you can do is see how good they are vs. everyone else but how do you know if someone is cheating or just really good? Most cheaters are not blatantly cheating so it is hard to know for sure. Even something like aimbotting is almost always adjustable in cheat software to have varying levels of accuracy.
reply▲SSAC is already widely deployed for many games. I'm not a professional backend gamedev (just an enthusiast), so I don't know all the approaches / tricks, but here's off the top of my head:
> [...] see how good they are vs. everyone else [...]
It's called Elo or MMR. You match players with a similar rating. An unfair advantage in one area (e.g. aimbot, map hack) turns into a significant disadvantage in all of the other areas (strategy, team play, mechanics, situational awareness, decision making). In SC2 you can regularly see mid-high masters or low GMs play against map hackers and just destroy them. Match making simply works as intended.
As a cheater - aside from being a different (not more difficult, but different) kind of a challenger, how do you gain material advantage from this? Streaming the game? If you attract a community that cherishes cheaters? Well.
This is of course on top of normal AC.
> [...] how do you know if someone is cheating or just really good?
In versus - it will surface, as noted above. You will plateau, just like any other player. If you're "really good", you will become an outlier and get attention.
In a game like Warframe (PvE, you can farm goods that you can sell for in-game currency), the main limiting factor is your time. A very good loadout will shorten an exterminate mission from 4 to 3 minutes, and you can build a decent loadout within ~2 months of starting to play the game. To further shorten it to 2min, you need good mechanics, or - as noted - to cheat. That's assuming you run solo - but since this is a co-op game, there's often someone on your team who will clear the mission for you in 2min anyway. Choosing to cheat is your own risk.
I'd consider AC a core part of game design.
> Most cheaters are not blatantly cheating so it is hard to know for sure. Even something like aimbotting is almost always adjustable in cheat software to have varying levels of accuracy.
It depends on how high you want to go - you don't know where the radar is, and it only needs to spot you once. The problem space isn't just aimbotting, it's highly multidimensional. An arms race like any other, except your "enemy" (the host) has significantly more information.
You must combine client-side with server-side AC either way. A CS exploit will circulate the same way a regular aimbot will.
(I had to make a HN account to reply to this, but…)
If only Riot, Epic, BE, whoever else knew about this wondrous approach! That way they wouldn’t have to reverse half the Windows kernel to figure out ways to stop & detect hacks.
Valve (mostly) does serverside analytics for CS2 and the success of their approach can be measured by one of FaceIT’s benefits being “we have a working anticheat”.
On a sidenote, I highly recommend this presentation on anticheat stuff: https://game-research.github.io/presentations/2025-08-06-bhu...
Hikikomori14 hours ago
[-] Always fun to read the "why don't they just..." Comments like it's an easily solved problem.
reply▲It has been time for long time and I support your stance but the big publishers only speak money. I gather they still have enough customers for their mainstream AAA titles.
But I would like to think that Valve it indirectly putting pressure on them. I too am not far from removing Windows and making the full jump to Linux for my gaming needs.
> If Valve pivoted into making a well-supported laptop with good hardware that ran Linux and played games...
SteamDeck is out since February 2022 and does all that. You can use a BT mouse&keyboard, plug a USB-C screen or dongle for HDMI. I did live presentations with that quite a few time. It's just a computer with another form factor.
It's not "dangerously close", it's been there for years now.
Basically only competitive gaming with kernel level anti-cheat are problematic.
kartoffelsaft18 hours ago
[-] The thing that makes that different though is the packing/unpacking experience. With a laptop it's just... opening and closing the lid. With a steam deck (or really any mini PC with a screen and battery), if you go wireless as you suggest, there's now at least 3 devices (deck, KB, mouse) that need to be handled and charged separately. Given my previous negative experiences with BT I'd go wired but that makes every move take even more effort.
I could see a setup with a case for the deck gives it a laptop form factor, but that doesn't seem like what you're suggesting. I might also ask how often you move your setup? My schedule requires I do so at least 8 times/week.
seconding this. I bought a SteamDeck OLED -- and it blows my mind more people havent heard about these. it's essentially a bad ass handheld laptop. yes it plays games great, but the OS side when you boot into desktop mode is quite capable - I spend more time on it than my home pc these days
reply▲A Uperfect lapdock with a USB-C PD injector from one of the AR glasses sets (can be bought separately) is even more convenient for Deck as a laptop replacement.
reply▲I was in the same shoes, then one day I decided to give a shot to Bazzite. To my surprise the installation was extremely smooth, and everything worked right away. Now I’m playing almost everything on it (Arc Raiders, EU V, HLL and Horizon FW recently). If you want to _try_ all you need is 15 minutes, some HDD space and an empty USB. You don’t have to give up Windows at all, dual booting is also pretty smooth.
reply▲Gaming on Linux is hit and miss, depending on the distro you use and your desktop environment. Some games should be launched with gamescope if you are using Gnome/GDM
To have HellDivers run in borderless window on Debian 14. It required me to manually compile gamescope (wasn't that difficult but Valve's instructions are out of date), and use the backports on Trixie to upgrade the kernel to 6.16, and update wireplumber and pipewire (sound was flakey on some games). Kernel 6.16 performs much better than 6.12 just generally.
All the Arkham games work perfectly. Doom Eternal has some weird latency in the mouse and aiming doesn't feel right.
I could never get my Xbox One bluetooth controller behaving with Linux. I ended buying a 8bitdo Xbox style controller which works perfectly. It is much better made than the Xbox controller and roughly the same price.
A few games I've tried required a little fiddling to work correctly. Some of these, like Dark Souls, required me to get a Windows patcher to run in linux to patch a windows binary, which required me to launch the patcher from Proton in Steam, and know where Steam installed the game. Not straightforward at all, but it can be done. I would not call it an experience for the average Windows gamer.
Some of the latest shooters, will get you banned because anti-cheat.
That said, there's nothing in my library (180 games!) that doesn't run in Linux, and I have a number of games that you can't even get to run in Windows at all anymore.
I think the gaming community should all send Gabe Newell a Valentines Day card, or maybe a Christmas gift, or something. Seriously, the man has done so much for gaming, think of where we'd be without him. Windows App Store, Sony Game Store, walled gardens...
That's why the correct choice is Bazzite
reply▲No the correct choice is what I want to use and it is Debian. Distro-hopping doesn't fix your problems and you will end up with either the same issues or more issues by distro-hopping.
I use my Linux machine for things other than games and I am not moving to "distro of the week" to run one game.
The correct choice if you don't want to spend all that time fucking around with your configs to play a game is Bazzite. If you value something more than the time you save then sure, use Debian for that ineffable reason: but don't bitch and moan about Linux being hard to play games on just because you're using a distro that isn't designed for it.
Bazzite makes gaming easy and is the Linux distro for gaming.
That's fair but Debian is shipping you multi year old packages when you want the latest drivers and mesa for games.
Bazzite has those, and you can just jump into a Debian Distrobox for development.
Debian 13 has mesa 25 which seems to be the latest or very close to the latest and installing an updated kernel was trivial via backports.
People exaggerate the problems of using a stable distro.
>People exaggerate the problems of using a stable distro.
Stability isn't a problem, it's a feature. Companies trust Debian, Ubuntu LTS, etc. for their servers EXACTLY because the packages are old.
This isn't the case with desktop computers, where the latest optimizations are delivered weekly if not monthly, and may improve performance across the board.
Sorry, but Debian 13 was recently released. Just three months ago, you would have been stuck on Mesa 22.
reply▲Usually Debian testing will get you where you need to go with Steam and gaming. The stable branch won't git r dun for you usually.
reply▲I find you can get a fair way with using backports. I am running the latest kernel and pipewire gubbings.
reply▲I've been playing games on Debian Stable for many years now, and although there were some issues back when the Linux Steam client first came out, in past five or so years, I noticed that I tend to forget to even check whether a game works with Proton before buying, and I haven't had any issues playing all sorts of games.
Of course, I don't play AAA slop that's essentially rootkits with a game attached on the side, but even more reasonable AAA titles tend to work just fine.
What I'm trying to say is that this "debian stable is from previous century" confusion needs to die. They had one or two slightly longer periods between two stable releases, many years in the past, but that seems to be all people remember.
So to be fair about Helldivers, it doesn't even reliably work on Windows.
I have to install a two year old AMD driver to get Helldivers to recognize my GPU.
I've had zero issues on Windows. None at all. I have a AMD GPU.
Linux issues have been poor performance generally. Once I installed kernel 6.16 that was fixed.
I have a bazzite box connected behind my TV. Even with a non optimal choice of graphic card (an old Nvidia) it works better than I was expecting.
reply▲I also bit the bullet and did a bazzite install and am blown away how seamless it has been for what I need. All the games I like run on Steam. Even Diablo 4 runs through the Blizzard launcher which does take some work to get installed, but nothing you can't find in a youtube video.
No issues using the system as my daily driver for personal things. I have dual monitors, one oriented vertically and one 144hz. All works great! I'd recommend it to anyone
The whole Universal Blue image ecosystem is so polished, consistent and coherent. Bazzite is their gaming image variant, I’ve also recently switched to Bluefin which is their Gnome variant on my workstation and everything works so nicely together, it’s the most joy I’ve had using a computer in a long time.
reply▲I've been very happy with Aurora-DX, which falls under the Universal Blue umbrella. I reboot it once a week to apply updates and I can roll back if I need to.
reply▲Loved the concept, tried it out, didn't work, at least not for RDR2 which I was trying to play. But how would it work, there is Linux, Bazzite, then there is Steam, RDR2 needs the Rockstar launcher, it's such an intricate web of dependencies, I'm not surprised something isn't working.
reply▲When silly DRM or a game launcher is all that is keeping you from enjoying a game, that is when you get the pirated version without any of this bs and enjoy it without remorse.
reply▲I have finished RDR2 on Bazzite (story mode), zero issues.
reply▲RDR2 works great on my AMD Linux machine.
reply▲RDR2 works on my Steam Deck. I had to use desktop mode to sign in once, but after that it's just worked from gaming mode.
The screen is a little small, though, or my eyes are too old. Maybe both!
I apologize that nobody responding to you is understanding the point here that the last thing Linux gaming is, is consistent.
reply▲Worked fine for me on a Deck.
reply▲frankly at this point pirating the content seems a lot more convenient than some of these games, I wonder if those execs are trying to intentionally push us off
reply▲How's the Nvidia driver support in Bazzite?
reply▲I used to also have a dedicated Windows machine just for gaming, but two years ago I formatted the Windows drive and put SteamOS (via ChimeraOS) instead. I can legitimately say that it has been more stable than running the same games on Windows. Just flawless.
reply▲now with gabecube, maybe steamos would be directly available for desktop too
reply▲Just wondering, what games are you playing that dont run on Linux yet? I can't think of games I'd play much with family that dont work well
reply▲I do not believe that _you_ are trolling with this question, but answering this is just asking to be trolled.
That said. Fortnite. Yes, I still play it with friends and cannot play it on Mac or Linux. :(
I'm sure others have similar examples. Also there are just simple things like playing with friends and streaming on Discord. Anybody streaming from Windows always comes across smooth and HD to the other participants while anybody on Linux seems to consistently be received (I don't know where exactly in the chain the problem exists, so just "received", as it may not be a broadcasting or encoding problem, I'm not an expert in this) with a lot of artifacts and lower framerates.
A friend of mine, a Linux user, says he installed Windows for gaming. Apparently the main issue isn't actual compatibility for games, but that a lot of games require some kind of kernel level anticheat (rootkit?).
reply▲It’s a few games, but a few very important ones.
GTAVs online ecosystem with custom servers.
Rust hasn’t enabled Linux Battleye support.
Valorant
Some releases that are temporarily popular like BF6, playtest of Battleye games where Linux support isn’t enabled (Fellowship, Exoborne). All games in this paragraph also by Swedish developers. Kom igen, linuxstöd
Some intrusive ones (EA's anti cheat for recent Battlefields, Activision's anti cheat for Call of Duty, anything from Riot to name a few) do not work.
However, EAC - who is a major player in this field producing generic solutions - does support Linux. The involved publisher, however, needs to approve this and the developer need to turn on a feature flag. That's it.
However, some publishers simply deny this for... totally mental reasons ...and this means that the game is marked as borked in protondb even though the game could as easily be played on Linux thanks to EAC's Linux support.
"EAC supports Linux, but devs just won't turn it on" is the clickbait answer, but the details are more nuanced. EAC has multiple security levels that a title can set based on the threat model of the game, and most games with heavy MTX that use EAC shy away from it, largely because Fortnite doesn't do it. EAC is owned by Epic, and if Tim Sweeney says that you can't do MTX on Linux safely, then any AAA live services game with in-game MTX is going to shy away from it, regardless of how true the statement actually is.
reply▲This. While EAC does support Linux it is nowhere near the level of protection of EAC on Windows.
reply▲The Finals has mtx, is protected by EAC, and is playable on Steam Deck.
Throne and Liberty, which is also protected by EAC and has mtx, is also playable on Steam Deck.
So this is bullshit and it clearly shows it's the publisher's choice. What Sweeney thinks has nothing to do with it.
> What Sweeney thinks has nothing to do with it.
I don't know if this is a fever dream or if it actually happened, but I seem to recall reading something about Tim Sweeney using Linux for a week to see how it compared. If he liked it, Epic Megagames would publish titles w/Linux support. He ended up complaining about some irrelevant things in KDevelop and it was pretty clear what his intentions were before even trying things.
I can't find any reference to this online, but I'm pretty sure that it happened. This would have been ~1998.
edit: It may have been Mark Rein?
no it shows those guys are willing to take the risk and learn the water is fine.
most aren't
"MTX" as in, microtransactions?
What do microtransactions have to do with anticheat?
You don't want someone having a skin that you are charging money for among other things.
reply▲granting clientside without paying, things like that
reply▲You are only safe if you run Tim's rootkit :)
reply▲Yes, this is broadly true. Just about everything that does
not have Linux-disabling anticheat runs wonderfully on Linux these days. You can check
https://protondb.com/ to see how any given game runs.
Yep anticheats are one of the big hurdles to 'porting' a lot of online focused shooters to linux. It's an unfortunate situation but I get it from the company's perspective, not having any anticheat leads to shitty situations for way more players than not having a linux version of their anticheat and a vast majority of players have Windows devices or are willing to dual boot.
reply▲Yes. Valorant and Battlefield 6, for example.
reply▲Escape from Tarkov is the only reason I have a Windows Hard drive still. It doesn't have anything else on it.
reply▲EFT has a pretty ridiculous history with attempts at anticheat. Several years ago they set up their servers to kick anyone with virtualization enabled because cheaters had been using VMs to intercept network traffic (the network traffic wasn't encrypted for tarkov then). The response from cheaters was to use a seperate bare metal build to intercept the traffic. The devs "fixed" it right before windows 11 came out with virtualization on by default.
reply▲FWIW, PvE and modded Tarkov
does actually run fine on Linux (Streets map doesn't, nor does Arena).
It's definitely not the same, but between Arc Raiders and PvE I get my extraction shooter fix. Online Tarkov is mostly populated by Gaming Wizards™ anyways.
Yes I am playing Arc Raiders now instead of Tarkov because switching is not worth it. Until it will be!
reply▲This is true. Battlefield 6 is in this boat
reply▲Yes and they could just make it(the rootkits) work on linux. It's more about the publishers/devs actively opposing linux.
reply▲Alternatively it's still a pretty small slice of the market that's not willing to dual boot for the major games that do require windows only anticheats so it's just not worth their dev and support time to try to serve that small slice. Valve's work on Steam Machines/Decks is the thing needed to actually push developers to supporting it by providing a relatively consistent target OS and a large enough install base to justify spending the money to support.
reply▲The major anti-cheats do support Linux, but it's opt-in on the dev side because they're significantly easier to bypass than the Windows versions. It's not even close, getting around the Linux ACs is child's play. It sucks but nobody really has a good solution yet.
reply▲I dont think I'm getting trolled, I know that loads of games still dont work. I just wanted to get an idea of which games are the current biggest ones holding people back.
reply▲Fortnite & Call of Duty
If I could travel back in time and prevent my kids and nephews from ever learning about Fortnite, I might do it. Instead I'm out here trying to keep from getting sniped by a Simpson character.
Fortunately, it seems like the rest of the family is getting tired of COD's ceaseless churn, and might be willing to pick up something else.
Fortnite is a fun game though, it's the only game holding me back from fully switching to Linux. Cloud streaming just doesn't cut it, latency is way too high (+ more money for a single game)
reply▲Ah I had kinda forgotten Fortnite exists haha. I think I assumed your kids were younger.
reply▲Does Roblox run on Linux?
reply▲For me it's only games the specifically don't support Linux, which are mostly competitive multiplayer games with anti-cheat software. Apex Legends used to work great on Linux, but they removed support as an attempt to combat cheaters (there are still tons of cheaters).
reply▲In addition to what others have said, a group of friends still plays enough League of Legends that I don't both dual booting. Also if you play RuneScape (RS3, not OSRS) the best 3rd party add-on, Alt1 Toolkit, only works on Windows.
reply▲For me the thing that pushed me to reinstall windows after I got a cheap $10 copy was Kerbal Space Program. Though, in my specific case I strongly suspect it was older hardware & driver issues than anything else, since I've not had any major problems on steam deck.
I do have more random crashes on certain games even on steam deck, but not as bad as Kerbal Space Program on my old (12 yr) desktop.
Factorio seems to work better on Linux. Which is both good and bad (since it's so addictive).
Factorio can save without stopping the game on Linux, which it can't do on Windows, since they just fork the process and do it in the fork IIRC, which makes the saving something you basically don't think about on Linux, but bugs you when ever auto save runs on Windows last I checked
reply▲BF6 and any multiplayer EA games with anticheat
reply▲Apex is an EA game and actually ran great on Linux until they removed support. Unfortunate, but they said it was necessary to combat cheaters though that claim is somewhat dubious since cheaters is perfectly viable on Windows still.
reply▲FIFA is another one that comes to mind, or however they call it these days.
Also from EA
Trying to get RDR2 to work on Linux, so far no luck.
reply▲I play it on Linux, try Proton hotfix.
reply▲I've played it on the Steamdeck without issue.
reply▲Battlefield 6, GTA V online, Escape From Tarkov, likely GTA VI
Imagine not supporting the latest releases that all your friends are playing.
Depends on your friend group; statistically speaking they're more like to play ARC raiders than EFT which does run on Linux
reply▲Zero of my friends are playing any of these games. GTA VI will probably do the console first release thing anyways.
Edit: Fair enough to the other ones though. This comment wasnt meant to be inflammatory or argumentative, but clearly someone else believed it was.
What's the point of arguing like this? You're asking for experiences from people, then when people give you proper answers it glides off with "well no one I know plays those anyways". Isn't the discussion larger than your personal and private experiences, if you're discussing in public like this?
You seemed to have some initial claim that "all games actually work perfectly fine, prove me wrong" but then you don't seem to actually want to engage faithfully anyways.
They think HN is Reddit, notorious with its flaming war
reply▲Steam Box 2 will be out before GTA VI
reply▲Battlefield, Call of Duty, Apex Legends, PUBG, Rainbow 6 Siege, Fortnite
Basically all the games I play regularly with my friends.
Microsoft Flight Simulator
reply▲Same, if they also released something like a Steam Machine Pro with more ram+vram and bit higher specs I would instantly purchase it. Nvidia and AMD have been rightly criticized for releasing 8GB video cards in the past year and valve shouldn't be immune to that criticism.
reply▲Would be great of Valve to just drop a Steam Machine Max++ with an AMD Ryzen AI 395 and 128GB unified memory. I know this is not going to happen, but SteamOS should boot fine on that SoC, so you can DIY a Steam Machine that also runs LLMs (albeit a bit slow) :).
reply▲It sounds like you want to install Bazzite on a Framework Desktop.
reply▲Last year I read a lot of reviews making a fuss about the RTX 4070 (mobile) having "only" 8GB VRAM but it's what I ended up buying and it just hasn't been an issue where I'm like, shoot my games aren't fast enough or pretty enough to have fun. Sometimes I think number-based reviews miss the point, and I miss HardOCP!
reply▲>with my kids and family.
if you have an AMD GPU, Linux Mint does everything 'gaming' - on top of installation, bluetooth and printing(!) better than Windows
>with my kids and family.
if you have an AMD GPU, Linux Mint does everything - including installation, bluetooth and printing(!) better than Windows
AMD GPU here, but I had issues connecting my Xbox controller to it and using it with Steam. On Bazzite this all works out of the box. Would love to know what the issue was but could've been my bluetooth chipset or something of the sort -- Don't know what Bazzite does differently from Linux Mint sadly.
Overall barely ever in Windows anymore and a happy Linux gamer.
I recently got a tiny and mighty GPD win mini. I booted windows once to shrink the data partition and installed Bazzite Linux. Painless install, never even considered booting in win again, and so far all games I tried worked flawlessly. I know there are issues with anti-cheat, but I usually don't even like those games..
reply▲This promises 4k 60fps gaming and Valve is good with hardware, so this is an immediate buy from me if it's under 1000€
No need to mess around building a gaming PC anymore.
It’s <= a Radeon 7600 GPU (28 CUs RDNA3 vs 32), so I’m not sure I’d have advertised it as a 4k60 machine. Then again I’m not a marketer so what do I know. 4k60 is a flexible target with FSR I suppose.
reply▲> This promises 4k 60fps gaming and Valve is good with hardware, so this is an immediate buy from me if it's under 1000€
Does it promise that? It seems like the hardware might do it, didn't see that anywhere
Valve says it runs 4k 60fps with FSR and I trust them.
NOTE: it's not "4k60 at ultra detail", which seems to be implied in the minds of some PC gamers =)
Hmm, you're right, weird that I didn't that initially, I wonder if it was just because all the background videos showed errors at the time and might have messed with the page layout
reply▲spaceman_202023 hours ago
[-] Only reason I even had a windows machine too. I got rid of it because I realized after a long tiring day sitting upright, I really did not find sitting even more upright and playing games relaxing. I wanted to plop down on the couch and do it. And it was a gigantic tower that was taking up too much space in my office
If I could have a machine like this instead, I'd happily buy it instead. Windows has zero use for me other than playing games
yencabulator20 hours ago
[-] Playing PC games with a controller, lounging back in a good recliner, is much more relaxing. Many games work great like that, and Steam tells you how well any particular game works with a controller.
reply▲rockostrich20 hours ago
[-] > If Valve pivoted into making a well-supported laptop with good hardware that ran Linux and played games...
The Steam Deck is kind of close to this although the screen isn't the best. I think the closest you can get to this right now is adding a graphics card module on a Framework laptop.
I made the switch to Linux for gaming maybe six months ago. I play A LOT of games and have only encountered a single game that didn't just work.
reply▲Laptops are difficult to cool down, they're bad for gaming.
Unless they remove fans, or have limited hardware, but that's already a steam deck: just add a keyboard and a larger screen.
I have a System76 laptop, and I bought it because they supported Linux and because I could buy replacement parts if I needed them.
The battery swelled, so I contacted them and they don't sell the battery anymore. I tried ordering one from, literally, half a dozen places online and was refunded each time because it simply does not exist.
They already proved with the Deck that you don't need Windows for a great gaming experience anymore
reply▲Extremely hard pass on a laptop. They already have the steam deck, and now they have this. Whether you want it portable or not, there are options. Laptops always end up being just... so disappointing.
reply▲the limit last time was anything competitive or multiplayer that required a weird launcher or some low-level permissions or something. I just want to play CS2 and hunt showdown.
reply▲I've been using Pop_OS, buggy as hell but steam games work great!
Everything is kinda a dumpster fire, but they nailed steam games.
For me it's been super stable.
I've hardly seen any bugs. And in those remote cases, it would be more correct to call them quirks than bugs, which have later been fixed anyway.
I've been using for intensive gaming, AI projects, and audio production. And when I say audio production I don't say Audacity. I say recent versions of Ableton Live running on ASIO drivers with windows VSTs and Max 4 Live instruments at 5 ms latency, all of this running through Wine with an amazing Wine managing software called Bottle (hehe).
As for gaming,, it's not hard to see people claming they get even more fps than they get with windows.
It's not a PopOS thing, it's the Linux ecosystem that is finally getting mature enough to pull this out (this time for real).
On top of this, System74, the company behind PopOS who is selling laptops with that OS, are also optimizing the kernel to make sure everything runs super smoothly...
I really don't see where your "buggy as hell" is coming from.
reply▲Half the time updates require me to restart X (or Wayland, whichever I am using at the moment).
Coming out of sleep is hit or miss. It works more often than I expected but sure as heck isn't 100%.
Graphical corruption slowly sets in with QT based apps over several days and then I have to restart my display server again.
(This actually seems to have gone away with the an update a month ago!)
Not knowing if I'll be able to sit down at my machine and have it boot up I consider buggy as hell.
Oh and certain items in pop shop, just clicking on them crashes the entire app. Every time, 100% reproducible.
Some apps have 2 listings, one of which crashes pop shop to look at, the other of which typically works.
Some apps just cannot be installed through pop shop, just nope, not going to happen.
Pop_OS is pretty rough. Theyre running on a super outdated base while working on COSMIC
reply▲The pop shop app being single threaded is just embarrassing. Do a search, the entire UI freezes up until the search is complete.
Also updates regularly break my KDE session and I have to restart my display server.
Sometimes I have to switch to a tty and back to my graphical console to get my display back.
It is a mess all around.
I haven't managed to get my GPU working in Docker, ugh.
That said, it does work. Mostly.
Agreed about POP Shop being slow. I recently learned that they were working on its replacement: "COSMIC store" (written in Rust + Iced), and it's super-fast. You can try it with `sudo apt install cosmic-store`.
reply▲The 24.04 beta is really stable and the new cosmic DE is great! I've got it on my desktop and laptop, no problems.
System76.com/pop/pop-beta
I actually really like my current customized KDE desktop. I have it all setup with transparency everywhere and a fully animated shader desktop wallpaper. Basically the opposite of everything Gnome stands for. :D
reply▲SteamOS has way more appeal to gamers in 2025 than it could have had in, say, 2004.
On the surface the lack of popular multiplayer titles that require a kernel-level anti-cheat is a heavy downside, but gaming is extremely fragmented these days.
In 2004 everyone, save for the casual players, at least tried DOOM3 and Half-Life 2.
In 2025 Fortnight has an all-time peak of 12M players, but at the same time there are many millions of Minecraft players who never even launched Fortnight. And DOTA2/LOL players who've never launched either of those 2. And then you see a bunch of indie titles selling tens of millions of copies, and their player base is completely unrelated to those above.
The days of the gaming mono-culture are long gone, and inability to play a limited number of Game As A Service titles is not as severe of a handicap anymore, especially since people who play those kinds of games aren't typically as interested in any other titles.
For better or worse, peer pressure doesn't work as heavy these days, as it used to
I was a heavy gamer in 2004 and never played HL2 or DOOM3. I know many such people. I think games like Mario party, smash, and Mario kart were far more ubiquitous.
reply▲SmallDeadGuy22 hours ago
[-] That just sounds like all you had access to was a Nintendo console, not necessarily due to your own choice. I missed out on all the early zelda, metroid, and mario home console games because we were a playstation family until the wii.
reply▲I played plenty of PC games such as Warcraft, StarCraft, and random stuff on steam. I was just not much into FPS (although TF2 was an exception). I also had all 3 consoles (all of my teenage paychecks went into games), but I think it was really Nintendo games which were commonly played by everyone I knew. Even if you didn't have one you'd play them via local multiplayer at someone's house.
reply▲Saying “everyone” played those two titles is still incorrect. Personally I think the landscape was more fragmented then.
reply▲shawn-butler23 hours ago
[-] Your definition of heavy gamer I think differs from the norm if your main plays were Mario kart, et al.
reply▲rkozik198922 hours ago
[-] Yeah, I am pretty sure most heavy gamers in 2004 were knee deep into MMOs and FPSes.
reply▲There isn’t a single one way to be a dedicated gamer.
Inevitably everyone has finite time and access to games and has to make choices about what to play.
As a Mac guy, I always found the game platform wars weird because even on the weakest gaming platform there are still more good games than anyone can individually play. And even on Windows, probably the strongest gaming platform, you’re still missing out on many significant games.
I totally understand buying a system because it has some game that you absolutely must play. I bought an OG Xbox back in the day because I thought I desperately needed to play Deus Ex: Invisible War when it didn’t come to Mac. Got burned on that one, but at least I had Halo before it came to Mac (and was in the end much better there than on Xbox due to expanded online multiplayer).
What I actually don’t get is folks who have to play the hot game of the week every week. Just seems expensive in terms of money, time, and space for different systems, and you only scratch the surface of the games.
What made you go with comparing things to 2004? Seems random, there is so much that is different in the Linux ecosystem generally, Valve just put the situation on a rocket and shot it into space.
Point taken, it really is marvelous! When I was running Gentoo Linux, and Windows 2000 back then I never thought things would be so portable and simple!
NooneAtAll323 hours ago
[-] > What made you go with comparing things to 2004?
I guess HL2 release?
Steam launch was late 2003 and first non-valve Steam games appeared in 2005, so "thereabouts" can be a reason as well for "Valve era"
MetaWhirledPeas19 hours ago
[-] > the lack of popular multiplayer titles that require a kernel-level anti-cheat is a heavy downside
It's a downside if all you want to do is play those games. But it's an upside if you're hoping they someday ditch all that nonsense. This puts more pressure on those publishers.
More likely is that some linux distro like SteamOS gets a large enough install base that it actually makes sense as a target and these big platforms make their anti-cheat work on at least that distro. As unfortunate as it is not having a very strong anti-cheat or a system like Valve's VAC ban to detect and lock cheaters out leads to really shitty online experiences in public lobbies for PVP games.
reply▲Hikikomori14 hours ago
[-] Some anti cheat works with proton if the game dev allows it. But anti cheats are generally not effective on Linux because you can just load your cheat as a kernel driver.
reply▲awakeasleep8 hours ago
[-] What kind of device & kernels driver attestation is possible in linux at the present time?
reply▲Secure boot, signed drivers, attestation, is all possible. But you can just sign your own driver anyway so kinda useless.
Might be possible with a more secure mode that is booted into when you launch a game that only allow specific drivers and programs like the game and maybe discord.
morshu900116 hours ago
[-] True. Things were better the old way with so many kids at least having a video game like Melee or CoD or Halo in common. I would've liked those to run on Linux, but that doesn't matter so much.
reply▲Eh multiplayer games are doomed.
Computer vision based cheats using an external machine that records the game's final rendered frames, process them with specialized YOLO models, and control "mices" and "controllers" to aim for you already exist.
If the aim for kernel level anti-cheats was to combat cheating, they have failed and are completely worthless.
You don't need an external machine. Since games are set up to allow twitch etc streaming, it's easy for apps on the same machine to get access to the video.
reply▲jack1243star7 hours ago
[-] That's like saying online banking is doomed because rubber-hose cryptanalysis exists. The defense does not have to stop 100% of the exploits to be effective.
I hate kernel level anti-cheats but they do provide friction and reduce cheating.
There are open source solutions out there. If anything there is less friction now.
reply▲BlueTemplar20 hours ago
[-] Your comparisons are a mess.
"Casual player" is very poorly defined.
You are comparing concurrent players with unique players (IIRC half a billion for Fortnite ?)
"Many millions" hardly means anything when you use it to cover 3 orders of magnitude.
And so on and so forth...
In this big hardware refresh, honestly most excited about finally getting a new steam controller [1], which feels like it might finally give us a better, more extensible standard than the extremely outdated XInput protocol (which still doesn't even support motion controls)
[1] https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steamcontroller
In my dream world, hardware enthusiasts would be constantly creating absolutely crazy game controllers with bizarre combinations of inputs that look nothing like an xbox 360 controller. There'd be a universal input protocol that would allow for self-describing gamepads with arbitrary numbers of digital buttons, analog sticks and triggers, touchpads, mouse inputs, haptics, gyro sensors, levers, sliders, wheels, etc. etc.
I realize this may not be practical, but it's kind of weird that PCs have been more or less stuck with a protocol designed for XBox 360 controllers for 2 decades now, while the locked-down console space is seeing much more experimentation and innovation around input. The original steam controller at least hinted at being sort of an open platform for this sort of thing, although it didn't really take off. Fingers crossed for the new version.
It's because the two-thumbstick, 8 face buttons, 2 shoulder and 2 trigger form factor covers so many games there's not been a real reason for super wacky controllers. They kind of hit it out of the park on the 360 design and the only real sticking point left is the exact ergonomics which mostly fall into the PS thumbstick position (both lower) vs XBox position (left high and right low).
reply▲One big reason would be that the 360 controller was when they first made it standard USB to connect, and introduced Xinput with the standard set of inputs for games to target. I expect most gamers wouldn't find it pleasant if they had to assign buttons and axis before the joypad would be active/useful, then hitting play and trying to remember what JOY_5 mapped to as used to be needed with directinput.
reply▲The number of sticks and inputs hasn't changed much since the XBox and PS1 days either though, it's not just that the 360 and XInput became a default. Outside of Nintendo's experimental time in the Wii and GameCube era it's been the default for several decades and even Nintendo has basically given up and come to the same format since about the Wii U days.
reply▲The Xbox controller doesn't even have a gyro. Xbox controller design is completely stagnant.
reply▲Gyro aiming being on all 3 console platforms would be such a huge boon, because then it could finally get implemented in every shooter. And they could start heavily nerfing the frankly ridiculous aim assist that controllers currently get.
Back buttons would be another nice one. Right now there's just 2-4 buttons too few on controllers, and it often leads to strange button mappings that either shift with context or require multi-button activations, which gets even more annoying if you have to do it during, say, a jump.
Is that something people are actually asking for? I don't think I've heard of anyone actually pushing for gyro aiming in major shooters like COD, Fortnite etc.
reply▲It's one of those things that people who haven't experienced simply wouldn't know to ask for. Wii had motion aiming but it was more of a gimmick, it wasn't until playing FPS games on the first Steam Controller that I, personally, realized how much more playable and comfortable gyro aiming made these games-- coming from mouse+keyboard, I found fine-aiming challenges on thumbsticks to be very uncomfortable.
Gyro aiming completely solves both fine aiming and tracking aim on a gamepad when paired with some kind of touch sensitive control for enabling the gyro (natural recentering).
In console FPSes they just automatically track the enemy if they're near your crosshair and call it a day-- giving everyone an aimbot instead of solving the UX issue.
I've tried Gyro aiming and could not get used to it even in games where it's the 'superior' choice like my brief daliance with Splatoon.
reply▲It takes a bit of time to get used to, and games don't necessarily do a great job explaining it. At first I preferred the stick also but eventually grew to prefer it. I'm not sure how popular it is but a fair number of games like Fortnite[1] and CoD do support it.
For most people you're better having relatively high sensitivity on the gyro and using the stick for large movements. Using human pistol aim as a metaphor it's like the stick is your arm, and the gyro is fine tune aim in your wrist.
[1]https://youtu.be/CiSS5OsNCNU
Personal experience. First: I'm not a gamer. I'm honestly bad at aiming with the mouse. (Even in my personal favourites, SC1/2, much more intensive on raw mechanics than AoE or BAR.)
I've first played Zelda BotW/TotK (which is very light on precise aiming), and I found the gyro both precise and intuitive. The game is nowhere near as fast-paced as a modern shooter, and the weakpoints are large enough to consistently crit. I enjoy the bow.
Then I've Switched to Warframe - a looter-shooter. NO auto-aim. My first attempts to aim with the thumbstick were painful and felt pointless. The default sensitivity was very low, which I imagine was supposed to help aiming, but it made many parkour moves near-impossible (the game heavily relies on both). You could always press a button to place the camera behind your back, but that was two-step, non-incremental, and wouldn't help turning up/down.
So I've cranked thumbstick sensitivity to the max - turning the camera whichever way was now easy; then committed 100% to the gyro for aiming. Honestly, I'm much more precise than I've ever been with the mouse. I can consistently land headshots (super important with incarnons), use bows / thrown / charged weapons, etc. My hit ratio is between 50-70% for most weapons.
I'd now be hesitant to aim with a mouse. Thumbstick - out. But that's just personal experience.
USB HID actually works pretty much how you describe, for instance a Physical Descriptor can contain metadata about which body part a button/control is supposed to be used with.
It's extremely complicated however (like many things USB), which is probably why everything just emulates an XBox 360 controller like you said.
Maybe with 10 fingers' budget, considering that at least three per side must hold the device, it's the most rational setup to allow for reaching two directional pucks and some buttons?
reply▲It looks way too chunky, just like the original Steam Controller, Steam Deck or original duke Xbox controller. Not everybody has Jack Reacher hands.
Microsoft really did it right with the XSX controller. They took the old X360 / Xone design (perfect for large and medium hands) shrunk it slightly and then added cut-outs and and angled button surfaces (perfect for medium and small hands). The Elite is similarly good, with the back buttons being elongated and thin, meaning everyone can reach them comfortably without them getting in the way.
I own a steam controller and have been using it for multiple years. It's actually really comfortable with the way it sits in my hand. Far more comfortable than whatever sony had going on with the PS4 dualsense stuff
reply▲As someone who has big hands (not chunky, just long fingers), I find the Steam Deck sooo comfortable and satisfying to hold. I still use my Nintendo Switch from time to time, but holding it now feels like it was designed for a child (which it was!).
reply▲You do not need big hands to use a classic steam controller, you just need to shift your grip. It's actually hard to use a steam controller with big hands. With long thumbs, the proper grip doesn't land your thumbs in the middle of the track pads.
Failing to better communicate the proper grip for the steam controller was a real fuck up on valve's part though. They should have tried to communicate it through design, making it harder to hold wrong.
I am kind of concerned about the size of the new controller, but valve seems to have decided there's no place in the market for a controller without sticks.
Maybe in size, but at least by weight, it's not bad at all.
Steam Controller weight: 292g.
Nintendo Switch 2 controller: 235g.
Sony Playstation 5 DualSense controller: 280g. DualSense Edge: 322g.
Xbox Wireless controller: 280g. Wireless Elite series 2: 345g.
My kids have been using the steam deck since they were 3 years old. Granted, their hands were a bit too small but the Deck is way more manageable than it appears.
reply▲SInput recently released and got supported by SDL, which plenty of games, but also Steam Input uses. So you can already use SInput in Steam Input. Better than XInput for sure.
https://docs.handheldlegend.com/s/sinput/doc/sinput-hid-prot...
I don't think Steam has ever published specs for their protocol. And without Steam, their old controller would fallback to a mouse/keyboard mode. The Linux kernel drivers (that didn't require Steam) were reverse engineered. Hori released a Steam Controller recently. Even that still had an XInput fallback switch.
I love my OG steam controller still. I can't tell if this new one has the dual stage triggers like the og (like if there's an additional click on full trigger pull).
I used that to set things like boost in rocket League and it felt super intuitive.
First thing I checked for! I feel like it's such a niche feature but also distinctive. It's actually a "necessity" for a proper Gamecube emulation experience, which has the two stage shoulder buttons.
Like you, I also used this for boost on Rocket League and it was surprisingly intuitive. You can map it to the triggers lowest threshold to emulate it but without the tactile bump to rest against it just won't work.
According to digital foundry it does have dual stage triggers
reply▲Praise Gaben. That's the one thing I've needed in any replacement Steam Controller and Valve finally did it before the last of my OG Controllers gave up the ghost.
reply▲I think the person you’re replying to has made a mistake: I looked extensively last night and there’s no mention of the Steam Controller having dual stage triggers.
However, the Steam Frame Controllers do. Seems weird they would add them on the Frame wands but not the actual controller replacing the controller that does have them.
No mention of dual stage trigger though, which was my cheat code in rocket league to have one button for accelerate and boost
reply▲Wow lol. I just posted the exact same comment, there are dozens of us! I literally cannot play rocket league without the steam controller for this reason.
Also set rotate left and right to the grip triggers (roll in aviation terms I guess).
You can set a dual-stage trigger in Steam Input binding with any controller its trigger range, its not something unique to the Steam Controller.
reply▲Sure, but having a tactile bump in the travel makes it that much easier. I can see the argument that it might seem overcomplicated or confusing to typical users though.
reply▲If we get really lucky, some gamer dev will look at the Sony DualSense driver (yes, they wrote and upstreamed an official one) and figure out a way on how to shim / expose the adaptive triggers to Steam Input bindings.
reply▲I wonder if the haptics are programmable enough to simulate that.
reply▲Steamdeck has the dual stage triggers right? (Though maybe just in software?) I'd be shocked if the new controller is less capable than that.
reply▲Hoping it's there just not mentioned.
reply▲This controller seems more like it's going for parity with the Deck, which doesn't have dual stage triggers. I wouldn't get your hopes up.
reply▲I just hope they give us an option to buy a controller with the face buttons in the "Nintendo" order rather than the "Xbox" order. Like how the 8bitdo pro comes in two versions. The only console I actually still care about these days is the Switch/Switch 2, so it would be nice to not have the button placement suddenly reversed when switching between controllers.
https://www.8bitdo.com/pro2/
I've been using a Stadia controller with my Steam Deck OLED but finally it'll have a worthy upgrade.
reply▲If Valve can push a new standard that actually takes modern input seriously and gives devs better tooling, I'd be all for it
reply▲I'm just hoping it has a standalone "pretend it is an xbox/generic controller" mode that doesn't rely on steam, so I can bring it to friends easily.
reply▲Same here. The trackpads on the steam deck work great. Might get this for docked mode. Kinda wish a splittable controller was more common for ergonomics ( not great to be clenching your chest on a centered object like that for hours on end, similar to non-split keyboards ). Seems like split controllers are still reserved for VR and nintendo switch style systems for now…
reply▲Can't you just use joycons without a Switch or VR controllers without a headset on PC?
reply▲I wonder how this will compare to the Dual Sense; the haptics on that would be tough to give up!
reply▲Isn't the lack of extensibility kind of the point?
It forces everyone to make the same controller, so the developer knows what the user will have.
The trackpads are a deal breaker for me
They should have put them just above the joysticks, like the PS5 controller
Better, they should have made them detachable with a magnet, similar to the Switch JoyCon's system, what a missed opportunity
> They should have put them just above the joysticks, like the PS5 controller
I don't understand how that would be in any way ergonomic. The new Steam Controller's layout has a proven track record with the Steam Deck, which is essentially identical. It allows you to play KB&M games like Alpha Centauri on the Steam Deck without any external peripherals. It would be utterly unplayable if the trackpads were in the same place as the PS5's pad, which is basically just used to open a menu or map or for gimmicky in-game gestures.
I found the original Steam Controller's trackpad placement to be just about perfect.
reply▲I'm really disappointed that the new controller takes AA batteries though.
reply▲i love it... I have a whole set of fujitsu/eneloop NiMH batteries
reply▲Maybe more electronics should do this to avoid so much electronic waste as when the built in battery dies, it becomes junk.
reply▲The steam controller has a rechargable battery, maybe you're thinking of the steam frame controllers?
reply▲"Steam Machine’s pricing is comparable to a PC with similar specs" [0]
It has to be no more than 800€ then if it also wants to compete against the console market.
Even 800€ is too much imo because looking at the specs it's already not a "future proof" build, more like a previous gen gaming laptop
0, https://www.theverge.com/tech/818111/valve-steam-machine-han...
Unfortunately given the fact that RAM and SSD prices are going through the roof coupled with the fact that a CPU like that alone will be near 150-200 at retail this thing is going to likely cost more.
The console makers have avoided these price increases by mass producing the same sku for a while now. If stocks last into 2027 they will likely remain the same price. If they don't I imagine the console prices might jump a bit too.
It is basically a amd 7640u with a 7600m glued on. All together and subsidized by the store, there is no reason to think this will be more than $600, likely closer to $500.
reply▲600€ is top I would pay for this, and even then the HDMI 2.0 sucks. I get that it's a linux/amd issue with HDMI licensing but it still sucks for a media center when most TVs these days support 4k/120 VRR.
I really like the controller, I think I'll pass on the device and just stream from my PC to TV.
Digital foundry have confirmed it supports 4K/120 VRR. It's actually beyond the HDMI 2.0 spec, but not listed as 2.1 as it misses out on some obscure features of the spec. Doubtful you'd get 4K 120p on too many contemporary titles with this hardware configuration though.
reply▲Wow, the heat sink takes up most of the internal space!
reply▲Having a single big fan cool a massive heatsink (that is hopefully very quiet) can legitimately a good reason to get this over building a typical SFF PC, which often runs hot and loud. It sorta reminds me of the trashcan Mac Pro. I myself have a sandwich style case with an RTX 5070 in it which is quite loud under load.
reply▲Yep, look at Mac Studio.
Honestly I'd love to see the trashcan come back, perhaps an entirely new design but still paying homage.
For 800 eur I'd rather get the cheaper Framework desktop motherboard (Ryzen AI 385) and build around that.
reply▲what kind of specs can we build a mini itx these days? I haven't looked into it, but the small form factor is a pretty big premium. I'm not sure I could build a ~ Raydon 7600xt micro itx build for less than $1K usd? (I haven't really looked, though).
For me, I'm looking at this like a nice micro itx build, and I'd probably pay up to a grand for it. (pending final specs and performance reviews, because it's kind of hard to compare it's custom chips on paper.)
romanovcode22 hours ago
[-] Intel i7, 1tb ssd, 32gb ram and 3070 can fit in ITX which would be MUCH better performance than the steam box for games.
Only downside is you have to install Windows of course.
I haven't checked in detail, but I would suppose SteamOS isn't far off from running on general-purpose PCs. Else, I've heard a lot of good things about Bazzite.
reply▲stepbeek44 minutes ago
[-] Nvidia drivers leave a bit to be desired on Linux imo. I’ve got an all AMD HTPC right now and bazzite is terrific.
reply▲SteamOS does run on regular PC’s I believe unless something has changed?
reply▲thanks for that. The internals photos were what I was really wanting to see!
reply▲black_knight23 hours ago
[-] I might be the minority, but I frankly would buy it at 1000€ easily if it meant that the hardware was really good.
reply▲Nope, I don't think you're the minority, once people think of this as a micro itx build. Power supply integrated. That's cool. Will be curious what the actual performance is because hard to compare the custom chipsets with what's out there now.
reply▲black_knight19 hours ago
[-] Yeah, I am seriously considering a small ITX build for my living room for gaming on. But this might be an alternative!
reply▲Very weird USB-C port placement choices...
- 2 USB3-A on the front
- 2 USB2-A on the back
- 1 USB-C on the back
If you want to plug an external USB hard drive or SSD at full speed, you'll need to plug it at the front? Or use up the only USB-C port...
I suspect most joysticks sold today come with a USB-C to USB-C cable, so if you want to charge your controller you either need to plug on the back, use an adapter, or get a USB-A to USB-C cable?
Also the single USB-C port isn't Thunderbolt/USB4, and they're only including gigabit ethernet, which is disappointing but perhaps understandable if they're trying to keep it at a low price.
Valve / Steam presumably has good data on what controllers and peripherals people are using, so I'd imagine their port choices are based around that. Here's a June 2024 post talking about Steam Input and controller market share:
https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail... . At the time of the post they say "59% of sessions are using Xbox controllers, 26% are using PlayStation controllers, 10% are on Steam Decks"
Steam input controller says nothing about the interface being used (USB A vs USB C). A single USB C (with DP support, I hope) port in 2026 sounds like a bad design.
reply▲Almost everyone is using these controllers wirelessly if I had to hazard a guess.
The USB interface is used for initial pairing and charging, in which case the port location doesn't matter nearly as much.
Yes wirelessly via an USB dongle.
reply▲yencabulator20 hours ago
[-] Steam Machine has a built-in antenna for Valve controllers.
reply▲People know that USB hubs exist and are inexpensive right?
reply▲Most gaming peripherals still seem to use USB-A on the computer end for cables and dongles.
Current Xbox and PS5 controllers charge with a USB-C port on the controller end but a USB-A port where the plug into the console.
Because think they need to be backward compatible with decade old peripheral controllers. People tend to get grumpy about this. Yet nobody flinched when XBox ditched KinectV2 with Series S/X.
For PC's people are used to adapters. And USB-C is superior in every way.
A self declared general compute device should have a least two USB-C outs that can drive displays.
For 2026 (12 years into USB-C spec) I would expect a minimum of 2 3.2 capable fully wired USB-C ports.
Even better something newer that could do near 40GBpS or better.
Like USB Gen 3×2
(Written on usb keyboard connected to 4k monitor that also charges the MBP it's plugged in)
For controllers you can use any cable you want. The Xbox controller will charge just fine on a C-C cable. I don't think they should have gone all in on USB-C like laptops have, but there should have been more than one USB-C and one should have been on the front. Pretty much the only thing you need USB-A for these days is mice/keyboard with non removable cables. Which are becoming increasingly rare.
reply▲Of course you can swap cables or adapt. I was taking about the cables these devices come with.
I’m all about the USB-C lifestyle but PC gaming peripherals are still pretty dominated by USB-A.
The slim PS5 uses USB-C on both ends.
reply▲What do you expect to do with the steam machine that will take more than a gigabit? I mean, it's cool when things are faster, but if you can saturate the link, downloads are still bottlenecked by the drives. And even 4k streaming is under 100Mbit normally.
reply▲I can download at approximately 2.5 Gbps from Steam on my PC.
I think not having a 2.5 gigabit port at least is a poor choice.
there is almost no one who has multigigabit internet and even for people that do, you spend significantly less than 1 percent of your time on that device downloading. its a complete non issue. this device is a midrange at best pc, so having a gigabit connection is exactly where it should be. if you want to have the best of the best build a pc.
reply▲That's an exaggeration. Affordable multi-gigabit fiber is widely available in plenty of metropolitan areas in the US and Europe and mid-range motherboards have included 2.5 GbE for years now and the NICs themselves are dirt cheap. I don't think it's irrational to be disappointed.
reply▲>Affordable multi-gigabit fiber is widely available in plenty of metropolitan areas in the US
Press X to doubt, isn’t a large part of country under Comcast (aka crappy monopolistic cable)?
I have >1 gbps service from them.
reply▲clifflocked15 hours ago
[-] This is not true, at least around where I live. Gigabit ethernet(which is gigabit for only the downloads, and <50 mbps for upload) is 110$ per month. Comcast is the only internet service provider who offers speeds over 50 mbps.
So I make due. If I want to download a 40gb game, I take a break. I read a book, or eat dinner. It works itself out, and I can play my game.
reply▲Hikikomori13 hours ago
[-] 2.5Gbit via PON fiber is getting common, but you won't get that from Comcast. US isn't great at internet speeds anyway. I've had symmetric 1gbit for ages here in EU and you can even get 10g in some places.
reply▲So you can theoretically download an AAA title like the new kingdom come at 84GB in just under 5 minutes instead of 11 min. That's cool and all, but does it actually matter? I mean, with games of those sizes you're going to spend hundreds of hours in the game most likely. It's an extremely first world problem that takes minutes, maybe once a month.
reply▲It's more so the fact that 2.5 GbE NICs are really cheap and already fairly common in consumer devices. And game downloads aren't the only use case, file transfers could benefit from the extra headroom
reply▲A USB 2.5Gb adapter costs $15 on Amazon.
reply▲Games are super large nowadays. IIRC Steam uses P2P for the update downloads, so you should be able to saturate whatever link you have, and the SSD should be substantially faster than 1Gbps. So anyone that has a > 1Gbps internet connection should benefit from something higher than Gigabit.
reply▲> And even 4k streaming is under 100Mbit normally
Are you talking "4k streaming" as the current streaming providers do it, with trash bitrate, or "4k streaming" as you would do it if you had ripped your own blu-ray disks and you want to stream it from a NAS somewhere else in your house to your living room?
Even on the high seas the large Blu-ray releases require only about 40-50Mbit, maybe you can get even larger releases (requiring ~100Mbit for streaming) but then a single movie would take up 100GB+ of space and it is such an overkill, no one really needs it.
reply▲How are downloads bottlenecked by drives? A normal nvme drive does >20 gbit.
reply▲You'd be wrong C to A is still pretty standard for controllers in my experience.
As for gigabit fewer and fewer people have ethernet routed to their office/TV area much less >1gig networking to take advantage of anything better than a 1 gig.
I agree that gigabit Ethernet is adequate for the type of product this is. But I do find it funny that the Wifi chip on this is very likely capable of 2Gbit. We somehow entered a world where WiFi is typically faster than Ethernet.
reply▲What do you mean some how?
Most people can't or wont retrofit their homes with wired networking. Those that did in the last couple decades likely used cat5/e.
The demand in the consumer space definitely favours advances in wifi.
Cat 5e is rated for 2.5 Gbps at the full 100 m. Practically, I've not gotten any frame errors on a 30 m Cat 5e link up for 100 days @ 10 Gbps - but 2.5G is where the cheap consumer products are anyways.
Wi-Fi for gaming is usually plenty fine though, especially if you're not in a very dense area.
For pretty much all computing history wired has been faster than wireless. And it seems reasonable that high speed wired should be simpler and easier than wireless. It's only just in the last few years the speed of wifi in devices has overtaken wired.
It almost seems silly to even include a wired port when the wifi chip is faster.
Wired networking is faster than wireless, just not in the consumer space.
Most data center networking is 10s of gigabits on the lower end. People are throwing out 10/40gb hardware at this point. There just isnt any pressure in the consumer space. Most people don't even have 1gb internet connection and that is where they access most of their data.
It always has been faster in the consumer space too. It's really only just now with MIMO and 160Mhz wifi bands that wifi is faster on most devices than ethernet.
reply▲mmm ...let's agree to disagree
I wired my whole place with 10Gb - couldn't do it in the wall (as in, hidden) so I have flat cables around the door frame and wall corners. I was willing to accept the cables, just to get 10Gb.
And, IMHO, it's worth it.
Not sure what we're disagreeing about, I'm not saying it's not a useful thing to have just that most people don't have it and don't intend to have it so it's not a useful spec bump for Valve to spend money on.
I'm personally planning on going through the pain to get ethernet run (luckily I have both a basement and an attic so it should be fairly easy) in my house and if I ever build new there will be whatever is the best standard at the time in the walls (and maybe some dark fiber but I'm less sure on that) but I also know I'm a vast minority of users at the same time. I'm also in a pretty big minority having a >1 gig symmetrical pipe into my house to make a 10 gig connection to my devices actually worth while.
You could probably connect a 10gbit usb adapter to the USB-C port on this thing for this use case.
reply▲I must have misunderstood - I prefer ethernet over wifi and I took your comment as more favourable towards wifi - in that case, my bad ^^
reply▲My setup is far from my ideal one so I'm on wifi for a lot of things but I was just pointing out the business reasons they probably went with the 1 gig port, there's just not that many people who are looking for or could take advantage of a 1 gig port.
reply▲Personally I'd never go for 10g copper, just run some fibre back to your cupboard.
For APs sure, do copper for POE, but not for computers. I doubt APs will need >1G in practical places for the next decade, and I don't think 10g does poe anyway (maybe 2.5g does)
I feel like part of the problem with going beyond gigabit Ethernet is that copper beyond 1 gigabit is expensive with limited adoption. SFP+ fiber is superior and not even expensive any more, but there's no consumer adoption.
reply▲The steam controller also revealed has a USB-C, as does Hori's official steam controller.
However, you can charge it from things that aren't USB ports. Charging bricks are cheap and most people have one for their phone now, except some unfortunate old iPhone users
Yes but the cord it comes with will likely be a C to A cable. A lot of controllers have come with USB-C ports on them now but ship with C to A cables. Microsoft, Sony, 8Bitdo; all controllers I've gotten that have a C port but came with the usb-a for the PC/charger end.
reply▲Most controller/headphone dongles come with USB-A, so 2.0 in the back makes sense. Radio for new steam controller is integrated.
I have a Y-splitter for my PS5 controllers and if I didn't, I would have had some sort of controller dock. I assume I would do the same for this. Either way, TV is too far from my couch for a cable, so I wanted to keep playing and charging I'd use a powerbank from my coffee table.
Gigabit Ethernet...that's sad, I'd take 2.5G, so I can better stream my legally ripped Blu-rays. I assume most people don't care because they would use Wi-Fi or their switch only goes to 1G. Better than JBL making android TV sound bar with 100mpbs.
I think it purposely designed, so you don't try to build a NAS on it.
I think the decision of usb2-a at the rear is for wireless keyboard and mouse adapters. Those ones can behave abnormally on usb3-a, plus it’s nice to have those ugly adapters out of sight.
reply▲Also just old wired mice and keyboards. The desktop use scenarios. If you use both ports for those at back. Any temporary faster devices make more sense at front.
reply▲The steam machine has a bespoke wireless connector for the (new steam) controller so it doesn't pollute the Bluetooth network and cause lag.
Yes, the controller is charged through usb-c, but you can just use any charger around to charge that. I mean, the battery should last for 30+ hours so you only need to charge it on a weekly or biweekly basis with heavy usage.
You can replace the internal ssd with an off-the-shelf ssd and it also has SD card support, so there should be less need for external SSDs.
Gigabit Ethernet is definitely a bummer when I'm close to having fiber all the way to my PC.
The lack of USB-C on the front is especially odd in 2025
reply▲A lot of devices that you commonly plug and unplug like flash drives and passkeys still make sense as USB-A for a lot of people because of the specifics of the USB spec.
C to A converters for devices are technically verboten since they would allow an enduser to make a A to A cable, which can fry hosts if you plug them into eachother if they don't support USB OTG. You can lose certification if you try to ship a device with a C to A converter.
Because of that, USB-A devices with an optional A to C converter (or neater devices that have both plugs on them natively) are what makes a lot of sense for a lot of people for the kinds of devices that live on a key chain. So it makes sense for that to be the default on the front of a desktop, IMO.
most of the usecase is going to be keyboard, mouse, and bluetooth headset dongles. All three of mine attached to my Steam Deck dock are USB-A.
although I own a bunch of those usb-a->c attachments you plug on the end, so it wouldnt make much difference
> bluetooth headset dongles
I imagine this has decent Bluetooth support out of the box even if not mentioned? Its hard to find a WiFi chipset these days that doesn't have some kind of Bluetooth support.
Maybe proprietary headset dongles, but if its just bluetooth its probably not needed.
Correct, proprietary*. Fancier gaming headsets often come with dongles.
reply▲> I suspect most joysticks sold today come with a USB-C to USB-C cable
while things can be charged with USB-C cables, the only thing I've ever received A C-to-C cable is... a USB-C wall charger. Granted I haven't gotten a USB-C iPhhone yet and I gotta imagine that one is C-to-C.
Generally lots of pack-in cables I've seen in the wild for charging devices continue to be USB-A-to-C. Switch 2 ports are USB-A, PS5 front port is USB-A... we're still getting there.
Real question, what would >1 gigabit Ethernet or Thunderbolt do for you in a low/mid-range gaming PC?
reply▲With thunderbolt you could connect an egpu. This machine won't age terribly well with it's limited GPU capabilities.
reply▲I suspect it'll be like the Mac mini situation, and the after-market USB hubs that fit the form factor will expand rapidly ..
reply▲It would be a case if it had I/O like Mac mini. Like if it had TB3/TB4/USB4 somewhere, it doesn't.
reply▲Adapting A ports to C is much more convenient than going the other way. I have a whole sack of passive A to C dongles that stick out less than 1cm from the port.
reply▲The console is on the TV side and I usually just charge my controllers on the sofa side. That way I can charge and play at the same time if I want to.
reply▲Could it be a synergy with the Steam Frame's dual band wireless dongle? I'm guessing they would really want users to plug that into the front of the device.
reply▲It's an old semi-custom semi-discontinued laptop soc.
reply▲A bit too sparse on details.
- No price
- No indication for whether the CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD are upgradable or all soldered together on the board.
- "4K gaming at 60 FPS with FSR" but doesn't mention what kind of games it can run at that quality.
- No performance benchmarks, or mention of what the equivalent retail CPU/GPU to their custom one is.
At face value this seems like a $500-600 PC, and that's also the price it would be able to compete with consoles at.
> "No indication for whether the CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD are upgradable or all soldered together on the board"
With 99.9% certainty this box is carrying on the legacy of the Deck and the Deck OLED, which means that it has a 100% custom crafted SoC with soldered components. Which also means they also could perform some trickery not found in "normal" PCs, like UDMA and custom interface.
> "but doesn't mention what kind of games it can run at that quality."
According to the specs it has a custom RDNA 3 chip w/ 28 CUs and boost clock at 2.45Ghz. The Playstation 5 has a custom RDNA 2 chip w/ 36 CUs @ 2.23 GHz and the Xbox Series X has a custom RDNA2 2 chip w/ 52 CUs @ 1.83Ghz.
Given the optimizations AMD made in RDNA 3 (the "budget" 9070XT can easily keep up with the prev gen "enthousiast" 9700XTX) I could make a safe bet it's on the same level of performance as a Playstation 5
> "No performance benchmarks, or mention of what the equivalent retail CPU/GPU to their custom one is."
~7600X, ~RX7700, but like I noted earlier that's meaningless because the overall architecture of the hardware in this box is likely completely incomparable with a generic PC (just like with XBX and PS5, by the way)
7900XTX not 9700XTX which didn’t exist.
9070XT is RDNA4 not RDNA3 and steam machine has 28CU’s on RDNA3 which is same as RX7400 the bottom of the range RDNA3.
The 7900XTX has 84 and 24GB of VRAM.
This is a strictly entry level last gen GPU, don’t expect miracles.
The hardware is not good unless the price is very cheap.
As for the 7900XTX been enthusiast only in the sense it it was the top of the line from AMD it’s about 4080 in some areas and loses badly in others (ray tracing), price wise it wasn’t far of the 9070XT price wise at launch.
I have a 7900XTX I like it a great deal but the 4090/5080 and 5090 crush it and the 90’s are enthusiast both on price and perf.
I ended up with a 7900XTX because nvidia pissed me off on Linux one time too many otherwise I’d have gotten the 4090 but between kernel installs causing pain (nothing insurmountable) and them straight breaking power management for nearly a year on mature hardware, nah, AMD deserved the sale, they really do support Linux better.
They said it's semi-custom discrete not a custom SoC. So basically it's a Ryzen 7400 + Radeon 7400.
reply▲7400 clocks at 1.1 GHz so it's not really it. 7600m is what it looks like.
reply▲The Steam Deck AMD chip is rumored to be a design for the Magic Leap 2, not for Valve.
reply▲Would this be capable of utilizing the ray/path tracing many games have now?
reply▲Steam Deck has a RDNA 2 chip which supports ray tracing (since it happily runs Indiana Jones and the Great Circle, which has a hard requirement for ray tracing) so I guess it will
.
reply▲There are some early previews where people ran some actual games at it[0].
Here are some of their results:
> In Cyberpunk 2077, running at 4K, it’s a surprisingly stable 60fps, albeit with the caveat of that using FSR 3 upscaling on Performance mode with Medium quality settings. But, also: basic ray tracing, something the Deck can’t even think about enabling outside of very specific games.
> The next game I tested, Black Myth: Wukong, is best run with its own RT effects switched off. Still, it also averaged around 60fps on otherwise similar settings: Performance-level FSR 3 upscaling to 4K, plus the Medium quality preset. And, in an almost unnerving repeat performance, Silent Hill f ran close enough to a solid 60fps (with most drops owed to Unreal Engine 5’s signature stuttering) on the Performance-level graphics settings and, once again, FSR 3 running on Performance mode.
[0] https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/hands-on-with-the-new-steam...
> In Cyberpunk 2077, running at 4K, it’s a surprisingly stable 60fps, albeit with the caveat of that using FSR 3 upscaling on Performance mode with Medium quality settings
So it's not running at 4K nor 60fps. I wish people would stop calling 1080p upscale through some dogshit filter as "4K"...
Not even an RTX5090 can run Cyberpunk at a consistent 4K/60fps without upscaling or frame generation, so it's not a realistic bar.
The AI-upscaled image is technically 4K though, looks pretty sharp with FSR/DLSS, and also significantly better than 1080p or even QHD.
I would call it TV 4k, not monitor 4k. FSR looks just fine from across the room.
reply▲I agree 100%. However, the upscaling is pretty good. You can tell it's not 4K, but it's also considerably better than simple bilinear resampling from 1080p.
reply▲Especially FSR 2 and its subsequent iterations. The motion vectors let them basically do TAA on the upscaled image.
reply▲It's basically a more powerful Steam Deck that's connected to a TV. The games will be "verified" and the settings pre-tuned for ideal performance just like the Steam Deck. They did a good job making the most of mediocre hardware in the Deck.
My initial thoughts were that this thing would cost considerably more, but I'm looking at the specs and it might not be too bad. Maybe it'll start at $499 or $599 and go up $749 or $849. I'm guessing SoC and not easily upgraded. It says Zen4 so it won't be Strix Point/Halo, but maybe some bastard variation with a Zen4 core and newer GPU than the Deck.
All my friends have moved on to PC, and I don't really want to build a $1000 minimum computer with crazy LEDs that takes up a ton of space with a monitor at this point in my life. And SteamDeck doesn't support KB+M well.
I have no qualms about couch gaming with a KB+M if I can do it with my friends and my already extensive Steam library. Unless they completely drop the ball on this, I'm in.
> and I don't really want to build a $1000 minimum computer with crazy LEDs that takes up a ton of space with a monitor at this point in my life.
The beauty of a PC is you can build whatever you want. It doesn't need to be large, and doesn't need to have LEDs. There are plenty of small form factor cases on the market with the same footprint as this one.
The Steam Machine is smaller than any case that would be considered mainstream in the small form factor community, at least to my knowledge. The FormD T1 is around 10L for example, and would look almost comically large compared to the Steam Machine.
And enthusiast cases like this are often quite expensive and not easy to get. Then you need to think about thermals, and find hardware that actually fits.
You can approach it form another angle and treat it more like a NUC and get a SoC but then you're probably not going to get close in terms of gaming performance.
So long story short: I disagree that it would be straight forward to build something like this on your own, at the same price point.
How are you declaring it not possible "at the same price point" when the price of this isn't even announced?
reply▲At the expected pricepoint, this Steam machine can't cost too much over say a PS5 or a regular PC with comparable specs and still make sense
We're more or less waiting to see if / how much is Valve willing to subsidy the price with the expectation to recoup it with software
Yep, but you need to put insane amounts of research into figuring out which GPUs and CPU coolers can fit your small case...
And then you get your case and mobo and PSU and maybe CPU and your budget is already at over 1000€ and you still need a GPU.
This is a fairly low spec device. You can comfortably fit all the hardware, case, PSU, cooling etc. in a $600-700 budget. If you want to go small form factor then it'll cost a bit extra, but not that much extra.
reply▲Trust me, I've tried. No success yet.
Not a PC gaming expert though and I don't have infinite resources to spend on figuring out how many millimeters of space each specific case has and how long a GPU is =)
But I've seen enough horror stories where someone bought a GPU or a heatsink that was like 5mm too big and didn't fit in the case without a hammer.
nooo.. this is about half the size of buildable SFFPCs with discrete graphics.
reply▲KB+M on steam deck is fine. I'm typing this on one right now. But I am excited for Steam Machine to use for VR streaming.
reply▲I would reach out to those friend for freebie parts.
reply▲8GB VRAM + 4K + FSR3 is very tough situation. Basically bit better than an Xbox Series S but quickly outpaced by midrange PCs.
It will all come down to the price.
Yeah non-upgradable 8GB VRAM would make it a no-go for all but the most casual gamers. But then the casual gamers would rather buy a PS5 for the same price, so let's see where this one fits in.
reply▲As a Steam Deck owner since pre-orders, unless the price is extremely high, I am going to get the Steam Machine as well. Kids plug the Steam Deck to TV to do couch co-op gaming even though the resolution is only 720p. So getting a better resolution and performance while still getting access to the huge Steam library and non-steam games (Minecraft, etc.) is worth it. I don't care about the latest AAA titles and FPS shooters, for those I already have a desktop PC.
PS5 is too expensive long term and is not usable for anything else.
And when Steam Machine becomes obsolete, I'll probably just use it/gift it as a mini pc/home-server to someone in the family.
Quite a lot of actual casual games, things you'd see in the indie or "cosy"/stardew valley-like genre only release on PC, or they take years to come to the Switch but nothing else. I see a lot of casual gamers getting the Steam Deck just because it's has the best selection of casual games.
For casual games even the steam deck can run most of them at 4k 60fps
They already own the PC market. This seems more like a play to start to introduce Steam towards more of the console market.
And for that, assuming a reasonable price, it looks like a nice attempt. Certainly much better than last time.
The size here is actually important too. I think the PS5 is monstrously large and ugly. I do not want it in my living room.
If this little box is roughly PS5 power and reasonably priced (we shall see) then that might hit just right.
It's essentially an RX 7600, roughly. It's not quite 'the most casual gamer', but it isn't super amazing. But... neither is the steam deck, and steam deck flies off the shelves.
reply▲They said they route vram/rams though the io die in the gamer nexus's video. Wondering if that means GPU will also have direct access to ram. So it will not actually be a very big problem? Probably slower, but not terribly swapping like those 8gb gpu.
reply▲The performance has little to do with the amount of VRAM. The VRAM is just a cap on texture resolution.
reply▲> No indication for whether the CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD are upgradable or all soldered together on the board.
Almost certainly. This is the direction the industry is heading, and the perverse unavailability of high-end discrete graphics cards is the nail in the coffin.
See also the Framework PC.
We do have an indication. The RAM and SSD are both upgradable. The RAM is SODIMM, and storage is NVME
reply▲I feel like these are the only things worth upgrading even in a desktop too. Unless you are the kind of person who buys the new CPU every year, upgrading anything in a desktop usually means replacing almost everything.
Every time I've looked at upgrading a part in my PC it's been the case where the CPU socket has changed, memory has changed to the next number of DDR, etc so it's basically just buying a new one of everything but the storage, psu, and case.
There are absolutely cases where I've wished I could upgrade the storage in devices though.
No, not really. I bought my current motherboard in 2018, and it's still more than good enough - runs almost everything at max detail 1080p/1440p - after I replaced the CPU+GPU 2 years ago.
reply▲Upgrading, yes, but sometimes one of those parts breaks and it is nice to be able to fix the machine with the cost of just that one part.
reply▲Valve's already said they hope to extend their relationship with ifixit to allow parts to be purchased, so that would presumably cover this kind of situation.
reply▲The Framework Desktop has unified memory, which is the usual excuse.
reply▲SSD and RAM replaceable, CPU and GPU soldered according to Linus. GPU equivalent to AMD Radeon RX 7600M
reply▲"- No indication for whether the CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD are upgradable or all soldered together on the board."
SSD and RAM are user replaceable, CPU and GPU are soldered
Consoles frequently get better performance than an equivalent pc because companies optimize for that specific hardware.
Frame becoming a mainstream device (compared to any random combination of components) might make a difference that way.
> - No indication for whether the CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD are upgradable or all soldered together on the board.
According to a video by Digital Foundry, the main limitation will be the 8 GB of VRAM (some new games may require more), which definitely can't be upgraded.
Yeah, gemini gives $649 - $699 for BOM, $749+ if they want some margin from the hardware.
Which is cheaper than most "Gaming PC", but still more expensive than Switch/PS5, and lack the expandability of PC.
I wish they could sell at $300-$500, that's really going to make this a must have for this year.
Using the deck prices seems like a good place to start unless they're using the opportunity to change strategy. It's an updated SoC, but minus a screen, battery, separate dock, built-in controller, and less pressure to pack it in a handheld chassis. They mention a built in wireless adapter for the controller, so I assume there will be bundles with and without a controller.
reply▲I feel the same way, it has to be priced in the range of gaming console rather than gaming PC.
reply▲If that's the case I think it's a hugely positive thing, and has gone away for newly bought hardware for a variety of reasons over the past decade. Having a basic PC and then upgrading it with a GPU used to be a realistic route to a respectable gaming PC, but I think that's largely gone away now (partially due to the death of the general "home PC" or many being on laptops. There are bargains to be had in the used market, but that comes with a lot of asterisks.
If they can get this to a large market I think it's great value, not just as a console-model PC but because a full featured desktop without lockdown is so near. It's a reverse of where I've thought MS missed a trick with the xbox, add a keyboard and mouse and let users have turn on a sandboxed lightweight desktop mode then funnel users to get software through their store, which would have been a great way to get xbox hardware installed in houses (especially the cheap S models) during covid when there was a sudden rush to buy PCs for home working that previously didn't need it.
This is targeted at the living room, but I'd love to see non-gaming uses highlighted and get the equivalent of 'deck certified' whether that's linux native or efforts into working well under wine.
I wish this thing had a PCIe slot. Would be nice if case manufacturers sold compatible cases for the motherboard so you could build a bit with it. Insert a raid controllers and a few HDDs to get started with a homelab or add a beefier GPU two years down the line.
reply▲Gemini is vastly overestimating the cost of the BoM.
reply▲Very interesting! The one killer issue that jumps to mind is anti-cheat. I switched away from gaming on Linux via Proton to gaming on Windows because Battlefield 6's anti-cheat won't work under Proton. Many games are like this, particularly some of the most popular (Rainbow 6 Siege for instance). And BF6 made this decision only recently despite the growing number of Steam Deck players (and other players on linux - in fairness I don't think there would have been that many BF6 players on a handheld).
Edit: I specifically use a gaming-only PC. The hardware is used for nothing else. Hence, discussions of rootkits don't really bother me personally much and on balance I'd really rather see fewer cheaters in my games. I think it would be the same with any of these machines - anything Steam-branded is likely to be a 99% gaming machine and their users will only care that their games work, not about the mechanisms of the anti-cheat software.
I view it as Valve is doing me a favor by adding friction towards me installing a rootkit to play video games.
There's also been numerous userspace ACs that work well and also run in userspace (EAC, Battleye, etc.) that have been enabled for Linux/Proton users (including by EA with Apex Legends at one point). A lot of the support for Linux mostly comes down to the developer/publishers not wanting to and not because of technical reasons.
on the other hand you can't play any of the older battlefields due to cheating (not like "is he cheating?" more like blatant "this guy is speedhacking and heashotting everyone" cheating that the server could easily detect if they cared about it)
reply▲BlueTemplar19 hours ago
[-] Is that the same Battlefields that removed support for private servers ?
reply▲This is a issue of critical mass. With the continued growth of steamos, steamdeck, and linux as a game platform, eventually it will pull over support.
reply▲I have to wonder if it's possible to ever even guarantee something that can't be trivially bypassed on Linux - Windows, sure, it's possible with DMA, but it's damn hard. On Linux you could just compile a spoofed kernel or a DKMS module or something.
reply▲Look at android, locked bootloader, no root, se linux, and voila
reply▲It looks like Valve wants to avoid going down the road of an extremely locked down system like that. They even view the ability to load alternate OS's as a feature of their products.
reply▲They could offer both locked down signed software on top of their hardware and allow for bypass when the user wants to install their own thing. I prefer by default to have locked down signed chain of software bootstrapping but I do want to also have the ability to use my own.
reply▲It doesn't have to be bypassed. Those same anti-cheats used by many unsupported titles are enabled for some games and work fine on Linux. So you just have to give the developers some incentive to enable it for their titles.
It is a choice made by game developers. Currently they don't see a market on Linux/Steam OS but if Steam Machines become popular, potentially they would be missing a market and decide to join in.
reply▲No, they don't work on Linux. They're borderline useless. The whole point of client side anti cheat software is to prevent players reading the game's memory or messing with the game's code. There's no practical way an anti cheat can stop someone on Linux because you can just compile a custom kernel that bypasses all the protections.
On Windows you can't do this, so you have to go through one of the known APIs that anti cheat software monitors or find exploits in kernel drivers to get in and poke at the game's address space. They also look for known vulnerable kernel drivers on boot and block loading the game if they find them.
Some anti cheats run on Linux, but they're borderline useless and trivial to bypass.
Unfortunately for anti cheat software to ever work on Linux would require signed and attested kernels and locked down OS software. Something that will never fly in the Linux ecosystem.
you can make a signed readonly linux installation, and restrict your games to it. this would be like "support steamos but not linux".
Or deliver the game as a container format, like snap or appimage to bypass most of the system.
Or demand the installation of a kernel driver like they do on windows.
or just give up on kernel level aticheat since they're been breached all the same, just as windows are restricting their power too.
easy-anticheat has a linux version. Developers have to disable the support intentionally.
is it not possible for someone to have Linux spoof that it's Windows to the game?
reply▲I sincerely hope it doesn't happen then. I'd rather have game developers come up with a different solution that is not a rootkit
reply▲It's worse than that, BF6's anticheat is kernel level and requires the Windows-only version secure boot to be enabled, at least on my motherboard. There is no way I'm going to faff about with my BIOS when rebooting just to play this game.
reply▲I don't know how EFI boot works but I am running a gaming PC in dual boot and I have both Microsoft and my own personal secure boot keys loaded (for linux and grub)
I boot my own signed bootloader (grub) from which I can also boot Windows. Windows shows it is in secure boot mode and it works fine with BF6 for me.
But I have a feeling this allows users to run some bootkit/rootkit and bypass any of those kernel level anti-cheats. Maybe I'm wrong and EFI handover to Windows clears all the memory, but I somehow doubt it.
Perhaps a trusted execution environment based anti-cheat system could be possible.
I think Valve said something about working with anti-cheat developers to find a solution for the Steam Deck, but nothing happened. Perhaps they will do something this time.
With a TEE, you could scan the system or even completely isolate your game, preventing even the OS from manipulating it. As a last resort, you could simply blacklist the machine if cheats are detected.
There would probably still be some cheaters, but the numbers would be so low as to not be a problem.
Maybe the user friction would be too much, but I'd be happy for the system to just straight up reboot for games which require anti cheat. So while that game is running, the system is in a verified state. But once you close the game all of your mods and custom drivers can be loaded just fine.
reply▲Looking at the specs and marketing copy, it sounds to me like you could secure boot windows 11 on this machine.
> ... a discrete semi-custom AMD desktop class CPU and GPU.
> Yes, Steam Machine is optimized for gaming, but it's still your PC. Install your own apps, or even another operating system. Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
I'd have Secure Boot, and then one root for an user-modifiable regular Linux installation, and another root that is read-only, signed, custom kernel etc.
reply▲morshu900116 hours ago
[-] Even without anticheat, ProtonDB has a lot of "gold" ratings it really shouldn't; the comments explain the real experience. See BeamNG and AOE2:DE.
reply▲All Valve has to do is say “Your software cannot deliberately exclude linux support including kernel anti-cheat to be listed on Steam.” And that would be that, the few devs big enough to make it on their own would leave, and everyone else would adapt.
reply▲Worth noting: Valve’s own first party tournaments for their own game require kernel level anti-cheat (from a third party vendor). Valve themselves have given up on allowing players in their own title play competitively in a Valve sponsored event with a kernel level anti-cheat. I can’t imagine they’d ever be this brash.
There is no adapting without a proper solution for securing game integrity.
You clearly are very misinformed on how Valve operates and runs the competitive CS2 environment.
Valve does not require a Kernel Level Anti-Cheat for "first party" tournaments. It is not stipulated anywhere in the Major Rulebook: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/counter-strike_rules_and_re...
The reason third-party anti-cheats are commonplace at these events is because most tournaments opt to use Faceit or similar for game scheduling. This was the case before VRS (with RMRs) and the TO could choose an anti-cheat of their choosing. This always ended up being Faceit AC or whatever platform the matches are scheduled via (For example, PGL used Challenger Mode, which used Akros Anti-Cheat). ESL of course uses Faceit because (ESL Faceit Group).
You do not understand how Majors are run. It is very hands off from Valve. Only recently, with the introduction of VRS has Valve started controlling and implementing dedicated rules into the ecosystem for TOs.
> The reason third-party anti-cheats are commonplace at these events is because most tournaments opt to use Faceit or similar for game scheduling. This was the case before VRS (with RMRs) and the TO could choose an anti-cheat of their choosing. This always ended up being Faceit AC or whatever platform the matches are scheduled via (For example, PGL used Challenger Mode, which used Akros Anti-Cheat). ESL of course uses Faceit because (ESL Faceit Group).
No it isn't. They're not using it by happenstance, because it is a feature of the platform, they're using it because it would not be competitively viable without it. PGL caught major flak for using Akros [0] because the tool was not good enough at the time to handle a Major qualifier. Just because something is not specified in the rulebook does not mean it is not de facto. Not a single Valve-sponsored major has ever lacked a third-party kernel anti-cheats, from the qualifiers (when they existed), to the VRS eligible events.
Yes, I am simplifying for the audience by calling them first-party. They're technically all contracted events on a tender process [1] (well, even TI is contracted out to PGL as of late).
The point still stands: events on Counter-Strike, with sponsored by Valve and with tight in-game integrations in the form of stickers, blog posts[2], and other advertisements, all rely critically on kernel-level anti-cheat for game integrity purposes.
Or to put it more succinctly: there is no viable pathway for a player to get their autograph into Counter-Strike 2 playing on Linux.
[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/19499bu/ak...
[1]: https://www.hltv.org/news/40764/valve-sets-start-of-march-as...
[2]: Today's blog post for the Starladder Budapest Major: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/730/view/57827633307...
The games would just leave Steam. The big publishers want their own platforms and launchers anyway.
reply▲The big publishers already have their own launcher and platforms and are increasingly moving back onto Steam because they see higher PC player counts and sales when their games are there
reply▲Games can leave Steam, but whenever they do they run into the awkward issue that gamers aren't usually coming with them, at least not in numbers that justify trying to create your own thing.
reply▲That's not the trend that we're observing. As much as publishers and developers want to control their sales channels, the current trend is for them to move towards Steam, not away from it.
The more likely outcome is that developers would segment matchmaking into people with kernel-level anti-cheat, and people without it. This seems fair to me.
Several big publishers did move away from Steam until Valve conceded some of their revenue, reducing their cut from 30% to 25/20% at certain revenue thresholds. That convinced the publishers to return to Steam, but it showed that Valve isn't immune to being flexed on by the bigger players.
reply▲Yeah, I would hope not. Trying to impose your will on suppliers and b2b customers like this is how you get hit with an antitrust lawsuit.
reply▲Is there an feasible alternative to "kernel anti-cheat" available on Linux?
reply▲There isn't.
When it comes to anti-cheat on Linux, it's basically an elephant in the room that nobody wants to address.
Anti-cheat on Linux would need root access to have any effectiveness. Alternatively, you'd need to be running a custom kernel with anti-cheat built into it.
This is the part of the conversation where someone says anti-cheat needs to be server-side, but that's an incredibly naive and poorly thought out idea. You can't prevent aim-bots server-side. You can't even detect aim-bots server-side. At best, you could come up with heuristics to determine if someone's possibly cheating, but you'd probably have a very hard time distinguishing between a cheater and a highly skilled player.
Something I think the anti-anti-cheat people fail to recognize is that cheaters don't care about their cheats requiring root/admin, which makes it trivial to evade anti-cheat that only runs with user-level permissions.
When it comes to cheating in games, there are two options:
1. Anti-cheat runs as admin/root/rootkit/SYSTEM/etc.
2. The games you play have tons of cheaters.
You can't have it both ways: No cheaters and anti-cheat runs with user-level permissions.
I don't fully agree with the 1 and 2 dichotomy. For example, before matchmaking-based games became so popular a lot of our competitive games were on dedicated servers.
On dedicated servers we had a self-policing community with a smaller pool of more regular players and cheaters were less of an issue. Sure, some innocents got banned and less blatant cheaters slipped through but the main issue of cheaters is when they destroy fun for everyone else.
So, for example, with the modern matchmaking systems they could do person verification instead of machine verification. Such as how some South Korean games require a resident registration number to play.
Then when people get banned (or probably better, shadowbanned/low priority queued) by player reports or weaker anti-cheat they can't easily ban evade. But of course then there is the issue of incentivizing identity theft.
And I don't think giving a gaming company my PII is any better than giving them root on my machine. But that seems more like an implementation issue.
Except most anti-cheats started on dedicated servers because it turns out most people are not interested in policing other players.
Punkbuster was developed for Team Fortress Classic, even getting officially added to Quake 3 Arena. BattleEye for Battlefield games. EasyAntiCheat for Counter-Strike. I even remember Starcraft 1 ICCUP 3rd party servers having an anti-cheat they called 'anti-hack'.
You can still see this today with modern dedicated servers in CS2: Face-It and ESEA have additional anti-cheat, not less. Even modded 3rd party server FiveM for GTAV has their own anti-cheat called adhesive.
I would argue a lot of the early anti-cheat was just as much about giving admins and communities better tools to police themselves as it was about automated cheat detection.
Like here's 2006 Punkbuster for Battlefield 2 (BEye might have been made for BF:V but Punkbuster was what I remember being used by servers). [1]
It automatically kicked on cheat detection but it didn't ban. It provided logs for admins to use for bans. It provided a way for admins to give community players the power to kick. It provided a player GUID based on CD key. It provided an online identity verification/registration system (though I don't remember anyone using this). It let admins take screenshots of players' screens.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20060515160425/http://www.evenba...
> So, for example, with the modern matchmaking systems they could do person verification instead of machine verification. Such as how some South Korean games require a resident registration number to play.
If you think the hate for anti-cheat is bad, just wait until you see the hate for identity verification.
I'm actually rather blown away that you would even suggest it.
> For example, before matchmaking-based games became so popular a lot of our competitive games were on dedicated servers.
I still had a lot of problems with cheaters during this time. And when the admins aren't on you're still then at the whims of cheaters until you go find some other playground to play in.
And then on top of that you have the challenge of actually finding good servers to go join a game with similarly skilled players, especially when trying to play with a group of friends together. Trying to get all your friends on to the same team just for the server to auto-balance you again because the server has no concept of parties sucked. Finding a good server with the right mods or maps you're looking for, trying to join right when a round started, etc was always quite a mess.
Matchmaking services have a lot of extremely desirable features for a lot of gamers.
Rootkit anti-cheats can still often be bypassed using DMA and external hardware cheats, which are becoming much cheaper and increasingly common. There's still cheaters in Valorant and in Cs2 on faceit, both of which have extremely intrusive ACs that only run on Windows.
At the level of privilege you're granting to play a video game, you'd need to have a dedicated gaming PC that is isolated from the rest of your home network, lest that another crowdstrike level issue takes place from a bad update to the ring 0 code these systems are running
I'm not letting a game company have root on my PC. How does that kind of exposure for something as frivolous as gaming even make sense?
reply▲Something that is "frivolous" to you is a passion or even a profession for others. Competitive gaming is a massive market worldwide, and it wouldn't exist without the ability to enforce a level playing field. Not everything has to be a holy FOSS war.
reply▲"holy FOSS war"?
Why not have a commissar sit behind every gamer to make sure they're not cheating?
That's a startling degree of access to give to these people for access to cosmetic micro-transactions.
But, I guess if all your friends are snorting coke in an alley, FOMO will have you right there with them.
Do you use a separate user to play games? If not it's kinda useless as a user space process can read all your files and memory of running processes of the same user.
reply▲That's how gaming on windows work. You're a minority with that opinion.
reply▲Even kernel anti-cheat can be defeated, this is a similar fight to what captchas have.
I can just have my screen recorded and have a fake input signal as my mouse/keyboard.. or just simply hire a pro player to play in my name, and it's absolutely impossible to detect any of these.
The point is to just make it more expensive to cheat, culling out the majority of people who would do so.
There's a third path:
3. No humans in your multiplayer
As someone who grew up amazed at Reaper bot for Quake, I'm surprised we don't see a rennaisance of making 'multiplayer' fun by more expressive, fallible, unpredictable bots. We're in an AI bubble and I don't hear of anyone chasing the holy grail of believable 'AI' opponents.
This also has the secondary benefit of having your multiplayer game remain enjoyable even when people's short attention spans move on to the next hot live service. Heck this could kill live service games.
Then again, what people get out of multiplayer is, on some unspoken and sad level, making some other person hurt.
There's just nothing like playing against other people. It's so dynamic and fun. Especially games like StarCraft. AI is just nowhere near as engaging.
reply▲> AI is just nowhere near as engaging.
A gazillion dollars of VC capital says otherwise!
Cheaters are increasingly sophisticated and hard to detect. It leads me to think if we put the effort in, we could emerge the same dynamism and fun, maybe even moreso.
If we can't fight 'em, join 'em?
the third option is cloud gaming for everyone.
reply▲3. write your codebase in a way which is suspicious of client data and gives the server much more control (easier said than done however)
reply▲That's just server-side anti-cheat, which I've already addressed.
Cheating isn't always about manipulating game state, especially in FPSes. There, it's more about manipulating input, ie, auto-aim cheats.
But isn't all client-side anti-cheat bypassable by doing image recognition on the rendered image? (either remote desktop or a hardware-based display cable proxy)
reply▲reply▲DMA is "easy" to patch. No reason to allow a device to have arbitrary memory access. Just require use of IOMMU.
FaceIT essentially has countered most modern cheats including those using DMA. https://www.faceit.com/en/news/faceit-rollout-of-tpm-secure-...
Nowadays if memory access is needed, you are looking at having to find a way to load a custom BIOS or UEFI module in a way that doesn't mess with secure boot. Even then, certain anti-cheats use frequently firing interrupts to find any unknown code executing on any system threads.
Yes. Using another machine, record the screen & programmatically move mouse.
At that point you have to look at heuristics (assuming the input device is not trivially detectable vs a legit one).
However, that can obviously only be used for certain types of cheating (e.g. aimbot, trigger bot (shoot when crosshair is on person)).
Today, no. Very simplified but the broad goal of those tools is to prevent manipulation and monitoring of the in-process state of the game. Consoles and PCs require this to varying degrees by requiring a signed boot chain at minimum. Consoles require a fully signed chain for every program, so you can't deploy a hacking tool anyway; no anti-cheat is needed. PCs can run unsigned and signed programs -- so instead they require the kernel at minimum to be signed & trusted, and then you put the anti-cheat system inside it so it cannot be interfered with. If you do not do this then there is basically no way to actually trust any claim the computer makes about its state. For PCs, the problem is you have to basically trust the anti-cheat isn't a piece of shit and thus have to trust both Microsoft and also random corporations. Also PCs are generally insecure anyway at the hardware level due to a number of factors, so it only does so much.
You could make a Linux distro with a signed boot chain and a kernel anti-cheat, then you'd mostly need to get developers on board with trusting that solution. Nobody is doing that today, even Valve.
Funny enough, macOS of all things is maybe "best" theoretical platform for all this because it does not require you to trust anyone beyond Apple. All major macOS programs are signed by their developers, so macOS as an OS knows exactly where each program came from. macOS can also attest that it is running in secure mode, and it can run a process at user-mode level such that it can't be interfered with by another process. So you could enforce a policy like this: if Battlefield6.app is launched, it cannot be examined by any other process, but likewise it may run in a full sandbox. Next, Battlefield6.app needs to login online, so it can ask macOS to provide an attestation saying it is running on genuine Apple hardware in secure mode, and then it could submit that attestation to EA which can validate it as genuine. Then the program launch is trusted. This setup requires you to only trust Apple security and that macOS is functioning correctly, not EA or whatever nor does it require actual anti-cheat mechanisms.
I wonder what ever happened to all those AI based anti-cheat solutions that I heard about. Was that last year maybe?
reply▲Do we know what kernel SteamOS uses? Is it built on linux, or could it be some sort of kiosk'd mode Windows where this will be a non-issue? One could hope but I truly don't know.
reply▲SteamOS on the Deck is just a standard (tuned) Linux distribution under the hood. It would be very surprising to me if Valve shifted to an entirely different OS for the Cube.
reply▲It is running Valve's immutable fork of Archlinux, you can find their source package mirror online.
reply▲Same. I mainline Destiny2 (well, a bit less these days), and Bungie won't support Linux/Steam Deck because they depend on BattlEye kernel anti-cheat.
(and yet still have a problem with cheaters, see all the bans following the Desert Perpetual raid race)
>RAM 16GB DDR5 + 8GB GDDR6 VRAM
Hmm. Not that it is big deal, but I would be somewhat worried about true longevity with the VRAM. Not sure if SteamOS helps there, but on PC some new titles are going over the 8GB VRAM.
One of the things I've noted for a while is that PC gaming as a platform seems to be polarizing between high and low spec, especially if you look outside of North America/Western Europe to places like South America or SE Asia. The steam deck and now this seem to be a reference/target platform for the low spec group. It might not be able to play the prestigious high spec titles well if at all, but so long as "your mileage may vary" is messaged well I can't see it being a problem, it hasn't so far.
reply▲The main appeal of a console (for both consumers and developers) is that's it's a "stupid" and "fixed" device. Your game either runs well on it or it doesn't, but you can always count on this remaining consistent prior to shipping it.
If Steam Machine gains enough foothold, it will be treated like a console. It won't run the latest title in 4K@120, but the title will still run great on default settings.
There's a certain category of person who spends thousands of dollars seemingly just to see bigger numbers in benchmarks and to flex their consumerism on people. I've seen quite a lot of commenting about how certain games are "unplayable" on the steam deck, games which I have been playing just fine. I just turn the settings down to low and enjoy the game.
reply▲It's a very low end Radeon 7000 series. It's absolutely incapable of the highest texture quality and rendering resolutions that need more than 8GB of VRAM. You'll likely never go above 1080p on this card (1440p is going to be rough based on benchmarks of the existing low end 7000 series).
There's absolutely no reasonable way to use more than 8GB of VRAM on this card.
Even modern low-end GPUs should have more than enough fill rate for high-res textures. The texture quality setting in games is usually not affecting performance at all until VRAM runs out.
reply▲Part of that is that the texture detail scales to the point where on a low end card at low resolutions you aren’t seeing any difference between high and low detail textures.
reply▲No DisplayPort 2.0 is interesting because RDNA3 should support that.
More importantly, FSR4 (currently) doesn't support RDNA3, so you'll be limited on upscaling too.
Unofficially you can use FSR4 on RDNA3
reply▲Games publishers/developers are going to have to wind in their necks a little. Whilst memory is abundant it's also still quite expensive. We should still be aiming for efficiency and the chances are 16gb+ are in the minority here. Fact is, the more VRAM and compute you demand the smaller your customer-base becomes.
I've played many games with 8GB VRAM* and will do so for the forseeable. If that's not enough, I am not a customer. Simple as.
The truth is, there is going to be a massive motivation with the likes of Steam Deck/Machine to actually make titles that are optimised and perform well within their hardware parameters. It's money you won't want to ignore.
*One example was Silent Hill remake on PC, which used the unreal engine. It was optimised beautifully and ran without visual glitches and stutters even with the highest graphic demands on a 8GB RTX
This. Absolutely this.
It is complete bonkers to suggest that game devs dictate consumer hardware, insane to run the asylum.
All game development should follow Nintendo model: there’s a fixed hardware and game devs should go out of their way to optimize to the spec, not consumer shelling out thousands every years because someone can’t be bothered to optimize their cashgrab.
I think it does also help that a big chunk of Steams userbase are playing smaller indie titles that don't need obscene amounts of vram. The steam deck audience for example has a lot of people playing both a mix of AAA and smaller games. Given this is advertised as 6x as powerful as the deck I'm sure they'll be fine. It's not meant to be a top of the line console thats for sure, and if it was people would be moaning that its too expensive.
reply▲Not using the highest settings obviously but i can run RD2 and CP2077 on the deck fine.
It will be a while before there is ps6 or new xbox.
oh 100% I've completed CP, RD2, Fallout 4, and god knows how many other games, it handles it all like a champ. Valves clearly following their own hardware survey results on their hardware plans as the modest specs are better than what most people active on steam are using right now so I think it'll be fine
reply▲Memory is also not that abundant anymore. Over the last month PC memory costs have more than doubled due to AI datacenter builds buying out all the manufacturing capacity.
reply▲You always have the option of streaming a game, though.
8 GB is good enough for most everything, and can you stream on an exception basis, if something truly demanding catches your eye.
It should be good enough for any game with a toggle on textures quality, which is pretty much every big title for the foreseeable future?
reply▲it meets or exceeds the ps5 and xbox series x, so it might not be top tier, but it'll be fine. I have a plenty good time on my series x, cant think of any stutters.
reply▲Both consoles allow more than 8GB to be used for the integrated GPU.
reply▲Actually looks like its just _slightly_ less powerful than them.
reply▲Not sure how heavy SteamOS is, but wouldn't modern games actually prefer a flipped memory configuration? So, 8 GB RAM and 16 GB VRAM would make this a more 'balanced' gaming appliance. But it is advertised as a general purpose PC, so 8 GB RAM wouldn't be enough.
reply▲The RAM's upgradable, it's standard DDR5 on a SODIMM module
reply▲8GB just isn't enough for modern AAA games. Battlefield 6, probably the most highly optimized AAA game to have come out in the past few years, still has a 16GB RAM minimum and Arc Raiders, which is also incredibly optimized, still has a 12GB minimum. Games are only going to become more resource hungry from here, so 8GB in early 2026 would be a terrible idea.
reply▲> Games are only going to become more resource hungry from here, so 8GB in early 2026 would be a terrible idea.
Game developers better start preparing to optimize their shit, then.
> most highly optimized AAA game to have come out in the past few years, still has a 16GB RAM minimum.
Are you talking about VRAM or system RAM? Steam machine has 16GB of system RAM and is expandable. VRAM is limited to 8GB.
I'm talking about RAM. Otherwise I would've written VRAM. I was replying to a comment saying it would be better if the Steam Machine had 8GB of RAM and 16GB of VRAM.
reply▲https://www.ea.com/en/games/battlefield/battlefield-6/system... Minimum PC System Requirements
OS: Windows 10 (Proton, maybe, probably anti-cheat issues)
Processor(AMD): AMD Ryzen 5 2600 (Yep √ )
. . .
Memory: 16GB (Yep, 16GB of system RAM √ )
Graphics Card(AMD): AMD Radeon RX 5600 XT 6GB (8 GB of RAM √ )
I do agree 8GB of VRAM is a little low for a device to release in 2026 though. But it technically does meet all memory requirements for Battlefield 6.
reply▲I was replying to a comment saying it would be better if the Steam Machine had 8GB of RAM and 16GB of VRAM. My point being that 8GB of RAM, not VRAM, would not be sufficient.
reply▲Battlefield 6 being "highly optimized" is a joke.
Runs pretty poorly on a RTX 4080 with 5800X3D @ 1440p.
It also legitimately looks worse than the Battlefields that predate it, even up to Battlefield 1, which is over a decade old now.
A better example is Arc Raiders.
Sorry, no. You're wrong. It's extremely optimized. I get 60-100 FPS on a 3060. It's ridiculously optimized. If you're having issues, it's particular to your system for some reason.
I remember 2042 being significantly worse when it launched. I've also played almost every other AAA launch of recent years from Elden Ring to Borderlands 4. They all run worse than BF6, even now.
commakozzi15 hours ago
[-] And it most definitely does NOT look worse than previous Battlefields. OP has a problem with his setup.
reply▲> Install your own apps, or even another operating system. Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
From your mouth to Tim Cook's ear, friend.
I haven't gamed in almost a decade but what an exciting time to be alive as a PC gamer:
- almost every classic console is easy to emulate
- most modern consoles are, less-legally, emulatable
- we have thorough archives of Flash games and ofc almost all non-flash web games are still functioning
- cross compatibility across OS's has never been better
And, best of all, almost all of this is achievable on Linux! You can also plug in almost any controller, VR headset, or monitor/projector. Remote gaming has also made incredible progress allowing gamers to access their expansive libraries while not even at home.
In fact, I can't think of a single thing a console can do that a PC can't
> In fact, I can't think of a single thing a console can do that a PC can't
Play current Nintendo game cards (and run the eShop etc.) without headaches or workarounds of dubious legality?
Run your whole PSN library reliably, without headaches or workarounds?
Full game system (with decent 4K in the case of PS5) for the price of a GPU?
Work out of the box without messing with it?
> Run your whole PSN library reliably, without headaches or workarounds?
Can your ps5 run all ps1, ps2, ps3 and ps4 games?
> Full game system (with decent 4K in the case of PS5) for the price of a GPU?
Not with current gen AAA, but older titles - yes.
> Work out of the box without messing with it?
Absolutely, yes. SteamOS/Bazzite literally just works.
Yes it's true. Emulators still have trouble getting around DRM and console-exclusives
But think about it this way. A PC can run PS3 games but a PS4 can't. A PC can run xbox 360 games but an xbox one can't.
I think all the console-exclusives out there are more than made up for by PCs being the ultimate backward-compatible gaming system
A launch model PS3 and a PS5 can play PS1/2/3/4/5 game discs, as well as PSN games, so that's pretty good.
Sadly the PSN store for PS3 is probably on its last legs though. Better download those games while it is still possible...
> - most modern consoles are, less-legally, emulatable
wheres the PS4 or like, any xbox emulator?
It's just Nintendo that has modern, usable emulators for most of the games you'd want to play. xbox never got lucky for basically any of their consoles and Sony never got anything usable after PS3.
> wheres the PS4 or like, any xbox emulator?
There are probably 10 exclusives combined on PS4 and Xbox, even less worth emulating. Everything else is already available on PC.
> wheres the PS4
- early days, but ShadPS4
> any xbox emulator
- OG XBox: xemu
- XBox 360: xenia
- XBox 1: early days but WinDurango and XWine1
none of these consoles are "usable"
I'm pretty into emulation. It's very misleading to claim that "modern consoles are emulatable" when no, only nintendo has emulators you can boot up, pick from a very large list of compatible games, and have a consistent experience that any sane person would want out of these.
Sony disappears after PS3 and xbox... well I guess xemu is Fine, but you're going to play for an hour and then come to the conclusion that you're better off hooking up the old console
Xenia's usable these days. Worse than RPCS3, but usable
reply▲Early days? Those consoles shipped 12 years ago.
reply▲I was gonna correct you and then I realized 2013 was indeed 12 years ago.
I guess in my original comment when I said "modern" I just mean not the classics. Other than the latest Xbox and Playstation models, emulators for those lineages are quite mature. Even the Nintendo Switch (2017) has multiple really great emulators.
The point is it's easier to list out which consoles don't have emulators than it is to list out consoles that do. Other than nintendo, there are pretty few console-exclusive games nowadays
That single thing is great UX.
While I personally very much enjoy all of the things I can do on PC and Steam Deck, I can definitely understand why my wife - who's not as technically inclined - prefers the PS5.
Consoles are just loss leaders for software now. Hot take: this is true of the Steam Deck and Machine as well. Yes you can play games from other vendors, but PC gamers are very loyal to Steam and many will never bother. I imagine at least half of steam deck users just use it like a console, not like a PC.
reply▲I don't see a reason not to be loyal to Steam. I probably spend just as much if not more than console gamers but in return I get so much more value.
reply▲It's pretty good as a consumer but they take a massive cut out for developers. I'm not crying about EA not getting its profit margins, but the cut Steam takes can
really hurt indie devs.
I try to buy from itch.io whenever its an option.
> I'm not crying about EA not getting its profit margins, but the cut Steam takes can really hurt indie devs.
Indies actually lose more of their margin than EA does, because Steam reduces their 30% cut to 25% after $10m in sales and 20% after $50m in sales. Few indies are doing those numbers, so it's functionally a discount for AAA publishers to discourage them from leaving for their own launchers again (EA did leave back when it was a flat 30% rate for everyone).
It is a large cut but they also offer much more features than any other store not to mention exposure.
reply▲Steam is a good experience and a good price relative to consoles, but other PC gaming storefronts do undercut them. See: Epic free games, isthereanydeal.com (competitive marketplace for legitimate game code resellers, which you can register with Steam,) and the class action lawsuits from Wolfire Games for price fixing.
reply▲I guess to get their stores on the platform, Epic Games etc will need to create officially supported Linux stores.
reply▲Or endorse Heroic, which works better than their launcher anyhow, even on Windows
reply▲> Consoles are just loss leaders for software now.
Maybe software is just a link in the chain to subscriptions.
>
almost every classic console is easy to emulateYes, but unless you have a library from back in the day classic console games are hard to find and/or expensive. Try finding a copy of Biker Mice From Mars, for example.
> almost every classic console is easy to emulate
>Yes, but unless you have a library from back in the day classic >console games are hard to find and/or expensive. Try finding a >copy of Biker Mice From Mars, for example.
Anon, I... ..... I am sorry to be the first one to tell you this... but you don't need to buy a copy of Biker Mice from Mars off eBay for 9 gorillion dollars. You can download every SNES game ever made in the history of ever for zero dollars. Then autists have reprogrammed FPGAs so you can run the ROM on exact circuitry powering a CRT to have an essentially 99.999999% identical experience
That said, when are we going to get a public release for SteamOS? …There’s a joke somewhere about them reaching SteamOS 3
reply▲reply▲>
https://gitlab.com/evlaV/holo-PKGBUILDSo to summarize: Valve provides source code for what they distribute, in compliance with the GPL, but this person went on a personal crusade to demand they open up their private GitLab to the world?
There appears to be some interesting history here, but this takes the cake as the weirdest README I've ever seen in a git repo.
The writing is impenetrably wordy and filled with excessive bolding and parentheticals. It goes completely off track and turns into an extremely long rant that implores the reader to "abstain from procreation", among other things. There are hundreds of links and hundreds of quotes mixed into long-winded sections about the author's self-importance.
Does anyone have a link to a more down to earth, less self-important, and more importantly concise explanation of what's going on?
From what I understand from this repo, the problem is that the official Valve source code release contains PKGBUILD files with build steps that reference a
private Gitlab repo that's internal to Valve. So while there is a public release of all source code available for download from Valve's website, these sources cannot actually be built because they want to clone a repo that cannot be accessed.
(In other words, even if you download a tarball of all SteamOS code, you cannot build it, because the build script insists on downloading source code from a Valve-internal remote, instead of looking for it locally.)
So to fix this, the author of this repo did two things: they created public mirrors of all individual git repos that are referenced by the PKGBUILD scripts (presumably by extracting the tarballs from Valve's release and running git init/add/commit/push), and then they created a "master" repo (linked here) that has only the PKGBUILDs, which the author fixed so they reference their own public mirrors instead of Valve's internal GitLab repos. See [1], for example, which contains the build instructions for the Steam Deck's DSP driver. The referenced git repository ([2]) is an inofficial mirror of Valve's internal repo, created from the source code release from the Valve website.
So no, it's not a "personal crusade" to demand Valve open up their "private GitLab to the world". It's a serious grievance about Valve releasing an "open-source" software that cannot actually be built from source, and a request for Valve to provide a public GitLab mirror themselves, such that their PKGBUILD scripts will actually work.
I agree that the author has a confusing writing style, but I do understand their frustrations and concerns.
[1]: https://gitlab.com/evlaV/jupiter-PKGBUILD/-/blob/master/stea...
[2]: https://gitlab.com/evlaV/valve-hardware-audio-processing
Yeah, this is clearly a person going through a mental health crisis. Sorry for them.
reply▲foxandmouse19 hours ago
[-] oh no, this again.. I remember checking out HoloISO when I was looking for SteamOS at launch… did a quick lookup on the creator and yeah, turns out he's a racist furry (literally)..
reply▲>
These public repositories (@gitlab.com/evlaV) are an unmodified 1:1 public copy/mirror of Valve's latest (currently private) SteamOS 3.x (holo) GitLab repositoriesThis sure reads like it's private
> I dunno if I'd characterize this as "public"
Then define public and state what's wrong with this repo which conflicts from your definition of public.
For me this looks like a fine public resource and after a short glimpse it looks like that you should be able to even build this effing source code from this repo.
Edit ps. If you edit your own content then please leave a note about what you have changed please
The linked repo isn't the official public resource. Valve provides the source packages for what they distribute (aka GPL compliance) but this person wanted them to open up their private GitLab instance to the world.
As far as I can tell, they wrote a script to download the source packages they provide and then try to reconstruct them into a GitLab repo.
Well based on the paragraphs in the README it's not actually being updated anymore, it only reflects SteamOS as of August and the author quit running their process to update it.
reply▲The ask was "when are we going to get a public release for SteamOS"
Someone's bootleg copy of the private repo is not proof that it has
Now I see...
Down down down you find
> (April 1, 2024): After over 2 3 years (and 2 Steam Deck model releases - LCD and OLED) Valve still hasn't publicized their private GitLab repositories nor fully complied with the GPL. I decided to (finally) release the relevant portion of my automated "bot" project, aptly titled srcpkg2git. This/These software/tools haven't been updated/modified much since 2022, but should allow users to easily access and even mirror Valve's SteamOS private repositories (as I've demonstrated with these public mirrors (@gitlab.com/evlaV) the past over 2 3 years).
Yes indeed. That's hardly public what we can get...
If I understand this correctly, Valve provides the src packages for the packages they distribute. This person wrote a script to download the src packages and extract them. The README misleadingly claims it's a "mirror" of Valve's private git repos, which is not accurate.
The author wants them to open up their GitLab instance, showing their internal development. That's not required under GPL.
Valve appears to be complying. This person wanted access into their internal development systems, though.
The rest of the README is tens of thousands of lines about capitalism, abstaining from procreation, and withdrawing from society with hundreds of links to videos and hundreds of quotes. It's very strange. These are not the writings of a healthy person, sadly.
Somewhere along the line during the past almost 30 years, we forgot what public and private mean.
reply▲You can download it and install images freely. The source code is private but available.
reply▲reply▲That is not for desktops. I would assume they meant a proper steamOS desktop release. We haven’t seen one in many years and the previous one is basically useless for most people.
Many of us have been waiting for a proper release for a LONG time. Bazzite is nice but I want to see what valve does next.
my guess is it will be mostly the same as for the SteamDeck but with
- Game Mode becoming getting a not Steam Deck specific desktop version, which I would love to see, e.g. last time I installed Bazzite+Steam Game mode, the Game Mode will default to 1080p even if your GPU can render 4k ...(easy to fix in the options menu, tho. But not very convenient.).
- slightly different defaults, tweaks, builds (e.g. AFIK not to long ago if you tried to put SteamOS on a desktop with RDNA3 graphics it didn't work. But they seem to more or less just use a standard linux graphic stack, so it's probably was just something on the line of "as it's not expected the parts needed for RDNA3 wheren't compiled in/shipped in the SteamOS for SteamDeck image)
There's nothing stopping you from installing it on a desktop with the right hardware.
I have a Ryzen 5 5600 and a 7600 xt in an sff pc, installed steamos directly from the recovery image. It supports the GPU, controllers, even the super fast sleep/wake.
Valve has specifically taken down the (desktop) steamOS download page and only kept up the recovery page because it just isn’t a viable desktop OS if you want to play modern games consistently (as well as other shortcomings). They explicitly discourage its use for desktop on the recovery page IIRC and emphasize it’s for handheld hardware.
The amount of tinkering and driver patching and just general work it requires to get it to play games properly (especially if the person is not AMD CPU/GPU) now makes it a non-starter except for people who explicitly want to make it work.
It can run. It generally runs poorly and with major holes in it.
hamdingers22 hours ago
[-] What you are saying just doesn't align with my experience. I've done no tinkering and definitely no patching and have been able to play several modern games (Cyberpunk, Spiderman 2, GoW: Ragnorok). I expect it's not the same for Nvidia based pcs or ones with exceptionally old or new AMD hardware, which is why I specified the hardware I'm using.
Telling me that the computer I've been gaming on for the last 7 months "isn't viable" for gaming based on CYA language on the downloads page is annoying and unconstructive.
You don’t have to argue with me about it. Feel free to dismiss my opinion. But I encourage you to go do a cursory search online about this and see what comes up.
I never said it can’t be done, just that it’s ill-advised given the limitations and specific hardware requirements to make it work stably/consistently. You yourself said “with the right hardware,” which is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Valve doesn’t stand by it as a desktop OS currently. Whenever it comes up, people almost always instruct folks to go to bazzite. What I am excited for is what they have planned for the steam machine because it’s hard to imagine that an updated version of steamOS built for desktops isn’t coming.
I have a SFF pc with an AMD GPU and AMD CPU both with better specs that the new Steam Machine just waiting for them to release a standalone installer for SteamOS :(
reply▲I just use vanilla debian and Steam works great. Just set it to launch steam on login and set your system to auto-login, that should get you most of the way.
reply▲You can use the Steam Deck recovery image to flash an SSD with SteamOS. It's what those of us on other handhelds do.
reply▲Have you tried Bazzite? It’s basically a drop-in replacement. It’s based on Fedora’s Atomic stuff instead of Arch, but if it wasn’t for the logo at the start, I’d be hard pressed to notice I was using it and not vanilla SteamOS.
reply▲I did try using Bazzite but I had weird issues with stuttering/throttling on the RX 7600 which made most games totally unplayable (I confirmed the same hardware worked fine on a windows install). That was a while ago though, it's probably worth me trying again.
Normally I just use regular Fedora/Arch/OpenSUSE for gaming on Linux and never see any issues (albeit that's on a 6800xt at the moment) but I want that consolized experience.
edit: found the thread where I discussed fixing this - few bits of false hope and then I eventually gave up. https://www.answeroverflow.com/m/1314736793190662216
Have you tried CachyOS? May get the results you are looking for with Desktop or even Handheld addition.
reply▲Yeah, imagine if you could install a different operating system on your Mac! What a world that would be!
Worth noting that this is a dig against the other consoles which do not allow this, not Apple who (in part) does.
Apple giving you more than consoles do is damning with faint praise, the Mac bootloader is technically open but without any public hardware documentation it's borderline impossible to do anything useful with that. Asahi have done incredible work but even they are still catching up with the M3, nevermind the current M5.
reply▲Apple can revoke it at any time. If a future update disabled or changed iBoot, there is no guarantee Linux would ever run again (unlike UEFI Macs).
Valve is not like Apple, they treat UEFI as a default.
They can afford to make a big song and dance about this because chances are they are not selling the hardware at a loss and they have the regular steam store to offset the short term costs. If they were selling the hardware at a loss, I think their marketing trying to sell this device would be very different.
reply▲they probably will handle it like with the Steam Deck
- no loss
- but small profit margin anyway, to max reduce the price, to max increase adoption/reach
for Valve people using Steam on non Windows platforms is more important then making a big buck from Steam Machines (because this makes them less dependent on Windows, MS has tried(and failed) to move into the direction of killing 3rd party app stores before, and Windows has gotten ... crappy/bloated/ad-infested which is in the end a existential risk for Valve because if everyone moves away from PC gaming they will lose out hugely)
Switch was always sold for more than component and manufacturing cost. PS4 crossed the threshold quickly (per Sony iirc?)
However, that ignores R&D costs which presumably have to be amortized, largely through game sales and platform fees. The same is true for other platforms like iOS.
Is Apple selling their hardware at a loss?
reply▲No, but I think the primary comparison is meant to be other major consoles (xbox, playstation, nintendo)
reply▲Sort of, maybe. I read it more as them assuring everyone that it's still a PC if a customer ends up wanting a plan B.
reply▲I know you are being rhetorical but for reference, of course not, their margin on hardware is 36%
reply▲Do we count socks and slings (Pocket™) as hardware?
reply▲Will it be possible to play retroarch games too? (i.e. the old SNES/NES games) etc. ?
reply▲reply▲Isn't SteamOS immutable? Can you layer packages on it like you can with Fedora Silverblue?
reply▲You can add packages, but they can be wiped by the updates. Flatpaks work seamlessly and because of the Deck's popularity, most everything you would want is available in flatpak form
reply▲On the Steam Deck you boot into desktop mode and it’s a standard Linux. Install what you want. I have Heroic Launcher on mine, running games from GOG and Epic alongside Steam games.
reply▲I sure have installed a bunch of emulators on my Deck. It’s not too hard to get individual games to show up in the main Steam menu, iirc. Haven’t really fiddled with them since initial setup though.
reply▲And Sundar's too with the latest BS about Android sideloading.
reply▲It may be too late, but its probably a good idea to to shift the language and start saying installing software on your own device. Google likes the term sideloading because it implies its a weird hack to not get all your software from their store.
reply▲Tbf at least Android is open source and AOSP itself doesnt have this limitation
reply▲Sort of. Google has slowly migrated all essential services into closed source libraries they control.
reply▲This isn't quite true. My GrapheneOS phone isn't lacking any "essential service." The only issue is that some apps distributed through the Play Store (or an alternative frontend like Aurora) that depend on proprietary Google libraries won't work. But this is a problem that rests with the developers of the apps, not AOSP per se.
reply▲Been using AOSP without Google Mobile Services for a decade now (LineageOS and GrapheneOS) without needing those "essential services"
reply▲Is Google going to require that device makers provide unlocked bootloaders?
reply▲Tbf I haven’t heard any news that Alphabet is requiring all sellers that paid off phones to be able to change to AOSP.
reply▲Macs do allow both of those things.
Valve is even borrowing some of the work done for the Mac version of Linux to add support for Proton on ARM hardware.
> Gaming on Linux on M1 is here! We’re thrilled to release our Asahi game playing toolkit, which integrates our Vulkan 1.3 drivers with x86 emulation and Windows compatibility.
https://rosenzweig.io/blog/aaa-gaming-on-m1.html
> Gaming on Linux on M1 is here! We’re thrilled to release our Asahi game playing toolkit
That certainly isn't thanks to Apple
Apple gets the credit for designing a bootloader that allows you to run a third party unsigned OS without degrading device security when you do boot into MacOS.
Applying the security settings per partition instead of per device is much more flexible, and you don't have to worry about Microsoft controlling which OS signing keys are valid.
It's uncharacteristic of them and better than nothing. But simply not blocking the installation of a 3rd party OS should be the bare minimum required by law. Ideally Apple would publish documentation on the hardware so it didn't have to be reverse engineered.
reply▲> designing a bootloader that allows you to run a third party unsigned OS
Oh thank you master for allowing me to boot a different OS!
Being allowed to run whatever OS you want on your device is a right, not something you should need permission for.
Does this mean the 1981 IBM PC gets the same praise? I mean you could install whatever you wanted on that thing.
reply▲You are allowed and maybe have one option, what's the problem?
reply▲Tell every game console maker.
reply▲For the sake of the argument, the topic here is running software on general computing devices, and most people don't put game consoles in that category. Also, according to my poor knowledge of game console history of past 30 years, game consoles never intend to run arbitrary software, unless you jailbreak the device which is obviously not allowed by ToS.
reply▲Apple doesn't deserve any credit for that. You should be able to use your hardware in any way you want without asking Apple for permission.
reply▲Although changes made since have left M3 and newer unsupported by the solution for the first two generations of their design.
reply▲Apple allow this kind of thing only on Mac and while also ensuring it does not happen by providing 0 documentation and by not contributing to any outside project. FEX was not made as part of the Asahi Linux project btw. Please inform yourself before making statements
reply▲If this is your take on it, enjoy the surveillance state and walled garden Apple has surrounded you with. There is no comparison with Steam and Valve compared to "gaming" on Apple. Literally apples and oranges. And in this case the Apple is soft and tasteless.
reply▲Bro. I played what I consider a basic game, Inscryption, on my MacBook Pro M4 Pro with 24Gb and that thing sounded like an aircraft taking off. ...meanwhile the weak sauce Steamdeck plays it flawlessly. Fan hardly even spins up. There is a lot of work to do IMO on the Mac front. I doubt Apple cares.
reply▲I've played much more graphically complex games on my M1 MacBook Pro with 16GB ram and _not_ had that issue. I think the makers/porters of Inscryption are to blame for your issue, not Apple.
reply▲I agree with the other guy. Just plugging in my M1 Max Macbook to an external 4k monitor makes it hot to touch. I don't what they are doing with the cooling on this laptop.
reply▲Do you mean plugging a 4k monitor in while gaming, or just in general? If just in general, something's going very wrong since I _only_ use my M1 (not m1 max, not m1 pro) macbook plugged into a 4k monitor (except when traveling), and it's never hot unless I'm playing a game that's really pushing the processor. For most games it barely even gets warm. And for normal web-browsing and netflix-watching it's cool to the touch.
reply▲My m4 macbook had a weird flashing external monitor issue. One that eventually led to my monitor appearing to break. But have no fear, it's a known problem since m1 times and not a priority to fix.
reply▲Shrug. I think Minecraft qualifies as basic, and it runs just fine on a five year old M1 Air.
It can also depend on how much effort the developer has put into a particular platform. Macs have not historically had a reputation as being a big market for games, not even in a relative sense, so some developers may not much effort into a Mac port.
There is no "Mac version of Linux"
reply▲Asahi Linux is Linux specifically made to run on the M-series Mac hardware, so if that's not a Mac version of Linux, what is?
reply▲Steam is the only reason I have a Windows desktop, I'll probably just get one of these next time I want a hardware refresh (which admittedly will probably be many years).
Interesting that it uses KDE Plasma for the desktop
It doesn't boot into the desktop by default — it uses its own session with the Gamescope compositor. The desktop is easily accessible through the power menu though.
reply▲Gamescope is really nice. I am running Steam headlessly with that on my home server.
reply▲> Interesting that it uses KDE Plasma for the desktop
SteamOS on the Steam Deck already used KDE Plasma for the desktop.
I like SteamOS a great deal, though it's not my daily driver (yet). I'm curious if people will begin to use it as a daily driver and thus expect Valve to be an OS developer on top of creating software for their gaming hardware. That's a different set of expectations and I wonder how they'll navigate it.
reply▲> thus expect Valve to be an OS developer on top of creating software for their gaming hardware. That's a different set of expectations and I wonder how they'll navigate it.
They've been doing it since Steam Deck launched, or even since they started to contribute to Proton/Wine (depending on exactly what you see "OS" to be). They seem to have grips on it more or less already, Deck upgrades are a breeze and the machine and software itself is open enough for a Linux hacker like me to be very comfortable on it, and also closed down enough for my nieces to not be able to brick theirs by just tapping around.
They seem to have worked it out well by limiting SteamOS to their hardware, so they don't have to handle all the varieties a regular distro has to. There's a significant number of people who want an 'official' release as a regular installable distro but I doubt it'll happen and Valve are happy to delegate that to others
reply▲Indeed, even much earlier. With Steam Deck they achieved wider adoption but the first generation of Steam Machines came out in 2015 and they have been committed to the SteamOS linux distro since then.
reply▲Yeah, I'm sure you're right overall, they've been at it for a long time. I think it's worth keeping in mind that all of the SteamOS'es before Steam Deck were pretty much nothing like the current (3.0) iteration. If I recall correctly, I think they were based on Ubuntu or Debian, compared to the current Arch Linux distribution.
reply▲I've used SteamOS as a daily driver for half a year. Immutable distros have limitations and my distrobox images failed to work after a SteamOS update.
If you're ok with running work stuff in a separate VM within SteamOS, that works great. Using Geekbench I saw only a 5% cpu performance penalty. Io takes a bigger hit, but that wasn't a blocker for me as I was intending to run VMs with encrypted storage anyway (which adds even more latency) but still a good experience for my work.
Linux is my daily driver, and I run steam to play games (though, not on a work linux partition for reasons).
It can run just about everything I want to play, but yes, there are plenty of things that don't work yet. Doom Dark Ages, for example.
I've used it as a daily driver for years and its good. Updates do break things though so it's not the total linux bug-free dream.
reply▲I have been using Steam Deck oled as my main computing device for 2 years. It has been amazing. It's fast and silent.
reply▲okayjustonemore14 hours ago
[-] This seems to have been targeted especially at someone like me: I don’t like to play on PC, have no interest in building a gaming PC and I only reluctantly buy consoles because of their (kind of) plug-n-play experience.
If this thing can get me a console-like experience and allow me to play my extensive library of games (most of them classic/vintage games you can’t get on modern consoles) hassle-free, then I’m (probably) sold!
And on top of that it runs Linux. Awesome, just absolutely fantastic!
I have a Steam Deck and it’s definitely more janky than for example an Xbox. It’s not bad! But do not expect the same level of polish. Small example, there’s often a need to dial back the graphics quality. Or the text is too small. Or the screen recording is a hassle.
reply▲I don't know if it's fair to compare a Deck to a proper full-sized console - especially things like font size being too small, which of course is likely to happen more on a handheld.
reply▲I wonder if Steam will finally implement multi-user sign on for local multiplayer games (like all true consoles).
It's something that doesn't get headlines, but a real barrier for enjoyment for a console-like PC. Hate being stuck with 'guest 1' and 'guest 2' or whatever. Many games want each player to progress and without true multi sign on, it just doesn't work. Hence games dropping local multiplayer on PC.
I still wonder how Steam generally handles Linux' multi user setup.
When I last looked into it, it seemed like Steam gets installed into the user's space of the linux user that did the installation.
As in, you have two Linux accounts and each would not only have to install their own Steam client. They would also have to download their own copy of the games they play into their own steam library.
And if the game is like 100GB in size that would mean you would have to se aside 200GB if both linux accounts would buy this game.
I feel like having to muck about with symlinks and stuff just to get both steam installations to believe this path is their library seems like a bit cumbersome.
Especially since I dont know how steam generally reacts when "someone else" aka not them makes changes to that library. I'd hate having to "repair" the library everytime I play just because my steam detected the changes from my brothers steam to that library as suspicious.
Windows does a lot of things wrong. So much that I would love to switch but the way it handles two windows accounts with their own steam account and one steam installation/library is at least working the way i would expect it to.
Steam would need to reliably pass multiple controller inputs to the game before your qualm gets addressed
reply▲BlueTemplar17 hours ago
[-] I'm not sure what you mean ?
We have been using 3-4 controllers on the Steam Deck lately : Steam Controller, Xbox One gamepad, Switch 1 Joy Pads (together or separate).
There are some quirks with the first time game setup sometimes, but we've never noticed any issues after that ?
Arch-based? KDE Plasma? There might happen a real "year of desktop Linux", in a way. That is, a Linux desktop that sneaks in as a side dish, but maybe gains some non-zero traction, and bringing FOSS to more people who are not engineers.
reply▲SteamOS on Steam Deck has been running Arch-based immutable distro since 2022. KDE can be started but by default it runs a Big Picture mode of Steam in gamescope.
reply▲"I’m on the record saying, that maybe Valve will actually save the Linux desktop. And it’s actually not because I think games are important! I don't care, I don't play games. I think some people do, so games maybe important. But the really important issue is I guarantee you Valve will not make 15 different binaries. And I also guarantee you that every single desktop distribution will care about Valve binaries." – Linus Torvalds in 2014
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc&t=310s
AI + Games is the killer app for Linux on the <everything>. You can make a beast of a gaming PC that also happens to be a beast of a local inference system, and that local inference system can manage the system for you, so grandma won't have to worry about the shell ever again.
reply▲I've been using Linux instead of Windows for over a decade now. If Linux exploded in popularity I would be afraid enshitification and monetization would kick in super quickly. FOSS can't dominate the market. The market won't allow it. They will find a way to exploit it. This is just a fear based on generalizations. Perhaps it is misguided.
reply▲Huh, I had just been trying to look into whether there existed a "mini PC but with a GPU in it that's at least as good as the ones in game consoles."
(Or, to put that another way: fundamentally, I want a game console — a piece of well-integrated consumer electronics that lives unobtrusively in my entertainment center, hooked up to my TV, requiring no maintenance, controlled entirely with a Bluetooth gamepad. But I want it to enable me to run both 1. current-gen games at at-least-equivalent fidelity to the console ports of those games; and also 2. "all the games a Windows PC can run." So, anything on Steam, yes; but also, all the weird little indie games on itch.io that never make it to Steam; and old DOS/Win31/Win95 games (either as polished ports from GOG, or through various forms of virtualization/emulation I'd set up myself); and even the little freeware games floating about on the "old internet", that someone made in Game Maker or RPG Maker 2000 or even as a standalone Flash projector executable, way back when.)
The closest thing I had found to that description so far, that even might work for the use-case, was the ROG NUC.
I wonder how this compares to that?
We have the ROG NUC and absolutely love it for our living room. Not playing any crazy AAA ultra graphics games, but it's been great.
If I had known this was finally releasing, I would have waited though.
probably exactly what you need! :)
reply▲> you can wake your Steam Machine without leaving your couch. [using the built in steam controller wireless adapter].
This one simple thing is the only thing that makes my SteamDeck+Dock feel like a second class console. So far they only claim it's for the Steam Controller, but I'd be great if it worked with the handful of 8bitdo or Switch controllers I've been using.
I agree. It looks like it's in progress.
Earlier this month SteamOS had a release: "Temporarily re-disabled experimental wake-on-bluetooth support for Steam Deck LCD while issues with spurious wake-ups are investigated"
https://www.steamdeck.com/en/news
I have a 1st gen Steam Deck (256gb), and it has supported wake from bluetooth peripherals for a while. I've only tested it with a PS5 controller, but it works. [EDIT: btw I use the official dock. Idk if it'll work with others]
I use my SteamDeck as a streaming device too, and since my TV is connected via HDMI, waking the console also wakes the TV. So I can start playing/watching anything by just turning on my PS5 controller (which is not ideal because the PS5 controller has terrible battery life and is often dead when I need it, but that's a different issue)
On the other hand, PS5 controller - unlike an Xbox controller - gets you gyro control, which makes for a very nice mouse experience. I play tons of mouse-only games (e.g. Mechabellum) from the couch thanks to the DualSense.
reply▲Same issue with Switch 2. You can only wake it with a Switch 2 controller. Nintendo's own Pro Controller for switch, which used to wake the Switch just fine, cannot wake the Switch 2. Seems like a forced upgrade issue, to me. :(
reply▲IIRC it's because the Switch 2 uses Bluetooth LE protocol for waking up the console which the Switch 1 does not support (it uses a different protocol).
reply▲Waking up the deck works for me with my xbox controller connected via bluetooth. Are you using those controllers via BT or USB?
Edit: Now that I think about it, this might have been a feature added to the OLED model.
Yes, the OLED model has a different Bluetooth controller and iirc that's the main reason. Though Valve has been working on trying to backport it to the original models as well.
reply▲You can also wake up your steam deck with the steam controller 1 :)
This makes me wonder if they're still using the same protocol.
There goes the XBOX. Microsoft have been letting their consumer products rot for a while now and they're finally going to start feeling the consequences.
reply▲The original steam deck was already exactly the product Microsoft should have made. There is now a whole class of similar (but generally more expensive) windows-powered devices. If Microsoft would have made the "XBOX Deck" they could have sold 10 times the numbers Steam Deck did.
But indeed, I'd think Phil Spencer's days are numbered now.
Valve, please partner with Framework. I think this could be a great partnership in the future and the whole ecosystem as a whole.
reply▲What would a Framework partnership accomplish? Ship SteamOS as a preinstalled option for their laptops?
reply▲That actually would be a cool idea and doable.
reply▲Framework could already do that if they want.
reply▲> Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
i'm having a hard time describing the feelings this makes me feel. like i've been stressed, bedraggled and worn down, and suddenly there's a moment where i can just rest
it's nice to be excited about something for once instead of the baseline expectation of a horrible adversarial experience, which is the case for most tech in 2025
it is somewhat depressing that it's this novel to expect a piece of hardware to actually exist to make my life nicer vs the default of being an abomination that tries constantly to extract money and information from me like a fucking vampire
(and i guess, not having used this yet, this also speaks to valve being one of the last companies that i have any trust in to be capable of making a business decision that makes them less money in the short run in order to deliver a better product)
Valve earned a lot of goodwill from me when I set up my docked steam deck as my main media player & gaming device. It required me to do a lot of little hacks. I was doing stuff the device wasn't meant to do, but it never put up road blocks just because I wasn't allowed to do it. Not like when I want to do simple things on my wife's macbook.
reply▲An ongoing 'background noise' concern I've had for a while is how PC gaming seems to be centralizing around steam. There's reasons why that happened, but it'd be real nice if 'infrastructure' was able to decouple from their store. It feels like practically requiring steam for PC gaming on windows and certainly on linux isn't a mile away from requiring MS windows, is it much freedom to pick which Seattle based company you run software from?
reply▲I don't think there's NO reason to be concerned, but I think it's pretty different considering the decades of history of how Valve acts vs how M$FT acts. Also, many games available on Steam are DRM free or available from other sources and Proton itself is open source.
Valve is also not publicly traded and they have a succession plan of some sort in the event that gaben kicks it, I can only assume whatever he's come up with is sound, he's done a great job of running the place so far.
When alternatives are Epic, EA and Microsoft, you choose lesser evil.
reply▲badsectoracula18 hours ago
[-] FWIW 95% of the games i play on my Linux are from other stores than Steam: GOG, Zoom Platform (not related to the Zoom telething) and itch.io, all of which are DRM-free stores. The Steam games i buy are mainly from small indie devs that do not have nor plan to have releases outside of Steam.
To play games i use UMU Launcher which is basically Proton minus Steam (or Wine plus DXVK, etc, depending on how you look it at). I use the "raw" UMU Launcher with its own command-line utility, though it can be used as part of Lutris for a GUI-based experience.
> There's reasons why that happened
Steam's near-monopoly was earned by simply being the best store. Other stores like Epic don't even include basic features like a shopping cart to buy multiple games at once.
I could go on and on about why Steam is so much better than any other store, but this isn't the place.
That said, I can understand being nervous. Steam is great because it's privately owned and GabeN is happy with the money he makes from it and doesn't feel the need to enshittify it in order to get more money. But eventually he will die or retire, and someone else will be given control. Supposedly, he's already vetted some people to take the job, but what's to say they weren't merely playing the part and will take it public as soon as they can?
Epic actually got a shopping cart last year. Still has terrible UX, however.
reply▲There are plenty of competing stores, they just aren't good. I require a game to be on steam because I like the store and features, but many games are also sold elsewhere.
reply▲The built in Steam DRM is very weak. Of course that can change at any time, but at least the current catalog of Steam DRM-only games are not really tied down to steam except via law/licensing.
reply▲The Steam Deck has been my dream computer for this reason. It just works, literally all of the hardware is 100% supported on linux. And it's also not locked down in any way. You are completely free to install anything you want. I'm just so glad at least one tech company has the resources and will to create something that is a fully polished consumer ready product which also isn't completely restricted.
reply▲A couple weeks ago Amazon said something about "we were trying to compete with Steam and even with all our resources nobody noticed" and that made me realize something: ideally, companies with similar products and services compete on features and cost, but nowadays the big tech providers compete more on lock in than anything else. But in the market of video game retail stores the competition _is_ on features and price, because Steam competes on those terms (ref gaben's famous quote "piracy is a service problem"; they're even competing and succeeding against free products)
reply▲I definitely didn't notice, I had no idea they were trying anything like that.
reply▲Plot twist, Valve AI will syphon all your user metrics into Valve's new model. J/k and all joking aside, I feel the same way. Feels like a love letter to gamers
reply▲Valve being the only company in 2025 launching something that isn't a AI glowing AI button.
Coincidentally also the only launch in 2025 people appear genuinely excited about.
Steam is a service that's been running for >20 years and somehow hasn't been enshittified (although, I suppose when it first appeared it was seen as enshittification). It's worth celebrating, to be honest.
reply▲Cool but I wish it had a single big APU chip like the consoles and Strix Halo - and unified memory. PCs are long overdue for adopting this change, and the only reason it makes sense to keep the separate is to make graphics cards swappable.
Considering how big GPU silicon is, when you have both integrated and custom, it'd have made sense to integrate them.
I'm thinking they considered this strongly, since that's what they did with the steam deck.
We don't know price yet, but if it's like the deck they'll be trying to keep it as cheap as possible. The deck supposedly was so off-the-shelf that it re-used a design for another AMD customer, leftover elements and all - https://boilingsteam.com/an-in-depth-look-at-the-steam-deck-...
Unless Valve took a big risky bet, the Steam deck is going to be again re-using existing hardware and excess hardware. I'm presuming there are leftover unsold Zen 4 and RDNA 3 dies - and nothing competitive that AMD could offer from Valves perspective, at least when they locked the design some months ago.
What they're using here is still mostly off the shelf silicon with some tweaks. If they got enough volume, they probably could go for an all integrated APU with unified memory that could keep the GPU fed, but that'd be a very expensive and new thing to develop.
I hope that if this is a success, they'll have the numbers to justify a Strix-Halo like APU with a smaller CPU but keeping the big GPU for the next generation of the device.
The problem with those Halo chips are they are really expensive. Steam is aiming for the masses so above 1k for this device is a no-go.
reply▲> and unified memory. PCs are long overdue for adopting this change
Why? Desktop PCs, especially gaming PCs, have nothing to gain and everything to lose by oversubscribing system memory with GPU workloads. The memory bus typically isn't fast enough anyways, and a modern PCIe x16 can easily handle the bandwidth of a gigantic GPU. The only advantage to unifying everything is latency, which isn't relevant at any framerate under 1000hz.
> when you have both integrated and custom, it'd have made sense to integrate them.
Sometimes, sometimes not. AMD's mobile packaging technology is not world-class like Apple and Nvidia's is. Valve had the experience with the Steam Deck to make the call if a mobile architecture was the right choice, and they decided against it.
Valve doesn't have to make a Mac. This is a gaming device, it's designed accordingly.
All consoles have been using a single integrated chip since the last generation. The memory bandwidth a CPU uses is much less than GPU. Let's say a CPU does 50 GB/s peak while the GPU does 200+
reply▲But why is it overdue? It's easy to put the performance profile of a console on an SOC, it's impossible to integrate many desktop GPUs into the same form factor. Pull up a unified benchmark like the OpenCL Geekbench, it makes this obvious. The most powerful SOCs, like the M3 Ultra, pull over 250w to get worse scores than a 4080 laptop dGPU:
https://browser.geekbench.com/opencl-benchmarksHow are SOCs going to replace full-fat ATX cards when they can't even beat the thermally-throttled version? The SOC isn't even more energy-efficient, here.
Being able to play PC-ish games without Windows (all on its own) makes this pretty interesting. Looking forward to seeing its real world performance. The fact that it doesn't take up the space of a household appliance is a plus too.
reply▲reply▲Long time veteran Linux user. I was not able to get anything to run on Steam. It's some sort of display driver issue/conflict, but if it takes me longer than an hour, I'm over it.
reply▲This is exactly where Bazzite is convenient since it comes with the latest drivers (including 32-bit) out of the box.
reply▲You can do that today with a Steam Deck + a dock. The performance is surprisingly good and most higher end games you buy on Steam will come with pre-configured steam deck settings to downgrade video settings if needed.
I'm going to be buying the box though for the faster AMD chip, as I wasn't able to play some like Resident Evil 2 remake. While the Silent Hill 2 Remake played decent enough.
Excited for Steam/PC games on ARM to get better as a side effect of the Frame running using a Snapdragon CPU.
Running x86 PC games on higher end Android devices already works better than you might expect via gamehub/gamehub lite/winlator, but it requires much random trying of different driver and runtime versions for every game and even then a lot don't work or have issues.
I do like this about Valve. They understand the 'Chicken and egg' scenario and thus try to push hardware or software ideas forward in the hopes that it encourages others to work to that.
Like Steamdeck with Proton, developers have a tangible target and can ensure their stuff works on it.
> Steam/PC games on ARM to get better
Exactly! It legitimizes ARM as a PC platform for both games and apps, and this helps the adoption of the architecture even on Windows.
Wow the whole line-up being "just linux computers" that is compatible with everything else really makes me wish they come out with a Steam smartphone instead of the walled garden crap we are being force fed from Apple and Google.
reply▲A mainstream desktop PC that supports most games without windows is actually a massive deal in the long term as I know plenty of people who don't like windows but didn't have an alternative
reply▲>
"SteamOS 3 (Arch-based)"Holy shit, it's the Year of The Linux Desktop, for real this time. It's happening. It's actually happening.
A standard Arch Linux/KDE[0] PC for every home, in a polished, vendor-supported package. Like Apple, it's a single standard hardware/OS pair, so, FOSS' fatal hardware-support hell might well be made obsolete. The vendor is a household name corporation. There's an incredibly fortuitous (for Linux) market dynamic at this point in time, of "commoditize your complement"—the dynamic that Valve has incentives to invest massively in giving away a nice thing for free, because that does bad things to its competitors. And Steam is... the killer super-app to end all killer apps.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SteamOS
This is real life!
If hype is to be believed, Omarchy is also pushing a lot of devs to Linux.
reply▲Jesus Christ, do you seriously not see a difference between established game development company that IS the de facto and de jure PC gaming, and a hypeman who developed some web framework?
reply▲Any devs that find the visuals, keyboard driven workflow, or cult of DHH appealing enough to try Omarchy are likely already Linux users.
Linux has been a great platform for devs for a long time. This is exactly why WSL exists, and why MacOS has a native Linux container[1] tool.. because Linux was eating their lunch in this user segment.
[1]: https://github.com/apple/container
I've been using MacOS as my daily driver for 20 years exactly because it had the best mix of (what I used to say a while back), "Linux that works, and ain't ugly"
OrbStack has solved all the issues I had with running containers on macOS. It's just a wonderful piece of software that just works. (Not arguing vs container, just specifying another option)
It's really not Linux though. You don't get a modern GNU userland, or even a modern bash without having to brew install a bunch of stuff. You don't get the networking capabilities. You don't get a well tested and stable ZFS implementation. And Orbstack may be great but it still has to run a VM and a Linux kernel under the hood to run all your containers.
For some, the Mac hardware or familiarity with the MacOS UI justifies these downsides. Personally, I'll take my Framework 13 with real actual Linux (Fedora workstation) every time :)
The only thing that crock of shit is attracting is grifter bucks.
reply▲Omarchy is free.
reply▲So? That doesn't mean D14HH isn't receiving "donations" for his "work".
reply▲Linus Torvalds was right. Valve will save the Linux desktop.
reply▲...by emulating WinAPI
reply▲And nothing wrong with that, the classic Win32 API is actually quite decent, especially the small subset needed for games. And it has the incredible advantage that it doesn't change since Microsoft doesn't care about Windows anymore ;)
reply▲That's not why it doesn't change.
reply▲The original comment by Linus was that Valve would not accept the current state of things where to distribute a program on Linux you need to create a different package for every single distro. Which is true, Steam with Proton has pushed a single stable platform where you can publish a single build and it works everywhere. In desktop mode of SteamOS everything is installed through Flatpak.
reply▲There is always Android ABI but kernel developers still think android is a calamity rather than biggest Linux success story ever...
reply▲Heh, who cares. I can play games and my OS doesn’t spy on me.
reply▲By _embracing_ the WinAPI!
reply▲The funny thing would be for Wine to then extend the WinAPI, and software beginning to use that extension.
reply▲Microsoft: embrace, extend… no, not like that! Stop!
reply▲Sometimes you have to walk with the devil to do good deeds.
reply▲I thought it was a translation layer? Not emulation right?
reply▲Seems to me that there is a fourth platform emerging: Windows, Mac, Linux and now, Steam.
PS: I know its custom Arch Linux under the hood, I'm talking about mass market nomenclature.
The main problem with Linux as a platform, is that it isn't. Linux is a kernel, with a platform built on top of it. And that's the real issue: Gnome and KDE are separate platforms; but so are Ubuntu and Fedora; but so are Flatpak and Snap; etc. Depending on your application, you will have to support several combinations.
For gaming, Steam OS fixes that. You can't target "Linux", but you can target Steam on Linux.
I wonder what video codecs will have hardware decoding support. Because having this able to support HTPC options with AV1 and h265 decoding would pair amazing to sticking this on the main TV for family gaming as well. I'd be shocked if it didn't have h265 support but AV1 is not quite guaranteed at this point.
reply▲This is the one area that Intel ARC absolutely excels at. If ARC doesn't survive long term, that might be its legacy in the same way Matrox pivoted to multi screen cards after the failure of Parhelia-512 GPU.
reply▲Hell ya! A new gaming OS, linux based, getting console and portable hardware that is well built, it's what I've been waiting for, something that gives you a good console UX but lets you play PC games.
reply▲I've had my Steam deck plugged into my tv for the last year and I sometimes use the Linux desktop (just a menu option and it reloads into desktop mode) which has a really nice design is already preconfigured for casual linux use.
I'd look up game review youtube videos and search stuff in between games from my couch. No complaints.
The only downside to SteamOS being linux is the lack of easy mod support. It's either a PIA or not supported.
You have to set it up with the Steam client in Desktop Mode, but you can add arbitrary programs and executables as non-steam games.
As a result, I can open Spotify in the background and have it play music while I game, from the primary SteamOS interface.
How's the added latency when connecting a controller to the steam deck through Bluetooth?
I tried to do something similar to you without a cable (controller --bluetooth--> deck --wifi & steam play--> TV) but it had ghastly latency, yet I didn't isolate which leg of the trip was responsible.
I use mouse/keyboard primarily and never noticed an issue even with bluetooth. I don't play multiplayer so wifi is not a factor in latency.
I do have a USB wireless dongle for my xbox controller which apparently is faster than bluetooth. I also now use wireless dongles for my mouse/keyboard but mostly just for ease of use. All 3 USBs are connected via dock.
A bit of topic, but I was wondering how much bigger is the steam machine compared to the mac mini m4, since that's what I have and is my frame of reference. Obviously comparing apples to oranges and only talking about physical volume, not features, compatibility, price, personal preferences, etc.
Mac Mini m4: 127 x 127 x 50 mm = 0.8 L
Steam Machine: 156 x 162 x 152 = 3.8 L
That's 4.76 times more volume.
The Steam device has a 110W GPU and 30W CPU. The M4 Mac Mini's peak power consumption is less than half of that. Even with the Apple Silicon efficiency, it can't keep up with high power GPUs in graphical loads like gaming.
Mac Mini will throttle itself after sustained full load, especially with the GPU engaged.
A Mac Mini will start throttling well before the end of a 30 minute online gaming match.
A larger volume for better cooling was a good choice for a machine designed to run the CPU and GPU at full load for hours.
In that sense the Mini M4 is targeted more at Desktop than gaming. Can do short bursts when needed but cannot run the marathon in terms of graphics. Nothing wrong with this, it is just a trade off.
reply▲It's also about twice the total TDP and more likely to spend time running at full bore. Bigger heatsinks and fans means quieter operation under load.
reply▲yencabulator19 hours ago
[-] 127 x 127 x 50 mm is likely the size of the cooling fan in the Steam Machine. Apples to oranges.
reply▲The Mac Mini M4 is crazy small though. This steam box is still really small, even if it is 5x the volume of the Mac Mini M4.
reply▲For anyone wondering how the Mac Studio compares:
95 x 197 x 197 mm = 3.7 L
Welp, I probably just found the final reason for not bothering to maintain a Windows PC at home any more in addition to my personal laptop.
reply▲I hope someone out there creates a "GabeCube" boot up screen, based on the Game Cube animation.
reply▲Perhaps as a non-gamer I can tie my wagon to the hope that Valve will make a phone that doesn't call installing "side-loading"? Gabe seems to remember why computers exist.
reply▲It's glorious. The year has finally come. It's nice to feel excited about tech sometimes, especially when the company isn't completely horrible, and more competition! Great! Microsoft's move really, Sony and Nintendo are doing pretty okay!
W shadow drop.
USB2-A ... what? Why? It's <checks watch> almost 2026. Apple hasn't shipped USB-A since 2017. But ok, apparently there's a bunch of PC folks still rocking USB-A. Cool, love that for them. But why not make them all USB3-A?
reply▲terribleperson8 hours ago
[-] The answer to why not all USB3 A is probably PCIe lanes. AM4 and AM5 are absolutely starved for PCIe lanes.
It could also just be a cost issue.
yes agree on the 3, but many gamers sporting old (e.g. xbox 360 controller) or cheap hardware (e.g. "gaming" keyboard on amazon). Pretty sure USB-C is expensive because of licensing.
checking my PC i have more A ports utilized than C
reply▲The year of the Linux coffee table.
reply▲It is truly amazing how far Proton/Steam OS has come along. I recently installed it on some old AMD hardware I had lying around, hooked it up to my TV and everything just works - zero problems. I look forward to checking out this Steam Machine!
reply▲I've installed Debian Linux recently, and it was EASY installing Steam and Heroic Games Launcher. Testing Rocket League and Thief:TDM and worked really well.
I also purchased a Steam Link and Controller a few years ago. Still works like a charm.
I was planning to build my own PC in 2026 to be the new Family gaming system. I don't plan to purchase game consoles, now. However, after seeing the new steam machine, I will wait to see the costs before I make a decision.
Seems like the Steam Machine.. if powerful enough and decent price.. can still be used as a PC. Otherwise, I will just build my own and stick Debian on it.
Be interesting to see how the Steam Machine does against XBox and PS. Seems like Microsoft may lose this battle unless they do something different with their next-gen. By different I mean that gets people excited.
Honestly, I think this is a good thing for Games Consoles. Lets me honest.. Games Consoles have not been proper "Games Consoles" since the GameCube, PS2 and first XBox. Since then, they are been more PCs than anything.
I knew I was building a library if unplayed games for a reason.
reply▲I know everyone says such good things about the steam deck, but my personal experience hasn't been great. Steam games are the best case scenario, but even those often require hunting down the best version of proton and doesnt work out of the box. why cant steam auto default to the version that works with the game? Getting discord running properly often involves switching to desktop mode, and then its hard to play handheld. if i connect a display in handheld mode i cant increase the resolution to match my monitor.
and then we get to 3rd party stores, requiring all kinds of hoops, and once you get it working and you come back to a game after a couple of months, its broken again. Installing ISOs requires even more painful work (tbf thats not an intended use case i guess).
Disclaimer: my use of the steam deck has been as a fairly non technical user. For me the whole point of getting it was a slightly console like experience, so I wasn't willing to hack into it too much.
reply▲Well, you have quite an advanced use case.
Remember that the majority of users doesn't use anything other than the default steam store ui. This case works like charm. I use with my tv, or standalone, my 10 year old uses, and we love it. I just make sure to play games announced as supported.
With custom things, desktop mode, non-steam software installation it's a typical customization story. It is amazing that you can do it at all but nobody will be supporting you on this journey.
That's fair. Perhaps I was a bit too spoilt by windows.
reply▲The whole point is to just use the steam UI only, and steam deck verified games. Anything else and your on your own.
The difference is they let you if you want to.
> For me the whole point of getting it was a slightly console like experience
You say this, but talk about the difficulty of 3rd party stores and installing ISOs. A console like experience means using Steam alone, and not even considering desktop mode.
Does anyone know the price?
reply▲Maybe we are meant to vote on it. I vote $299.
reply▲they have yet to announce the price
reply▲> Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
What a refreshing thing to hear in 2025... :D
In 2026 we should be getting Windows on a Xbox console with the Xbox skinned version of windows. This would be a direct competitor to that since most PC gamers have the majority of their game library on steam.
reply▲One (maybe the only) advantage that the hypothetical new Windows-based Xbox console is that it'll be able to play all online games that require anti-cheat like COD, Battlefield, and Fortnite. All games that are mega-popular but are unfortunately unwilling to support anti-cheat on Linux.
reply▲> the Xbox skinned version of windows
Isn't that what the ROG Xbox Ally devices have? At least that's what it looked like to me. Something like a SteamOS's gaming mode counterpart for Windows.
From what I could tell, the ROG Xbox device was just Windows desktop mode with a full screen "Xbox" application open, which you can minimise and see the normal desktop behind it.
reply▲Yes, the xbox skinned version of windows is in the ROG Xbox Ally
reply▲And iirc it performed worse than SteamOS due to all the Windows bloat.
reply▲If MS even bothers to make another xbox this is what it will be.
reply▲8GB vram in 2026?!
reply▲I think this is fine for a mass market device.
It might be easy to forget, but most gamers are not using the higher-end hardware that enthusiast discussions tend to focus on.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey
Perhaps an 8GB limit will encourage game studios to allow more time for optimization, which seems to have fallen out of fashion in recent years.
I imagine this will also help keep the price down, which is always nice.
It's funny - if you look at the most recent steam hardware survey results this new steam machine almost exactly matches the median system - 16gb ram, 8gb vram, 6 physical cores, and the GPU looks like be roughly similar in perf to a 3060 too.
reply▲Half Life 2 recently got a dev commentary track where Valve reflected on their decisions from 20 years ago. One of the things that stuck out to me was that, apparently, Valve called up Microsoft and said "Hey, what percentage of desktops have DirectX 8 compatible graphics cards?" and Microsoft had no idea.
And thus the Steam Hardware Survey was born. The specs automatically sounded a bit anemic to me, too, but seeing them placed on the hardware survey I don't think they're making an outright mistake, per se.
On the other hand the median system wasn't purchased in early 2026.
reply▲Why does it even matter? Maybe Valve will finally bring an end to this madness of upgrading your PC every year.
reply▲On the other other hand, the average system in that survey presumably cost more than what the Steam Machine will retail for, if we're correct in interpreting this as being a competitor to dedicated consoles.
reply▲Valve has said it won't have console-like pricing, so.
reply▲But even if it's double the price of the PS5/Xbox, it's still likely to be less than the price (at the time of purchase) of the mean PC in the hardware survey. For every gamer out there struggling along on a $500 mini-PC, there's another who plunked down $5,000 to play Cookie Clicker at 8K/240 FPS.
reply▲If this gets enough adoption for gamedevs to prioritize support when testing games that's likely not going to be a huge problem. 16gb ram + 8gb vram is also similar to what all the current gen consoles have, although all three have the advantage of it being unified between the CPU and GPU so they can use more than 8gb vram if needed (16gb, 16gb, 12gb total system ram for PS5, XSX, Switch 2 respectively)
reply▲This is my concern as well. I suspect this will struggle versus a PS5 because even though the PS5 only has 16GB total, its unified, so it can be allocated more towards VRAM if needed.
If they are selling this for $300-400, it will be a hot item and I cant fault them at all. If it sells for $500+, its hard to recommend over a PS5 for most users.
1080p is already a struggle for some games with 8GB of VRAM in 2025, and this will probably be expected to have a service life of 5+ years.
The Steam Machine looks to me like it'll become a great optimization target to hit (if it becomes popular enough, which it probably will). Solid, predictable targets are always great, and now we have yet another one that doesn't have the downside of being in some insular, exclusive dev space like PlayStation, Xbox or Nintendo. It's just a PC, in an open eco system, with predictable and decent hardware.
reply▲It's close to an RX7500/7600 paired with a Ryzen 5 7500/7600. Depending on the price it can be fine for gaming. Nobody expects enthusiast performance. It has to be priced to be competitive against consoles and lower end DIY PCs.
reply▲what game needs more?
reply▲Many do, especially at higher resolutions.
reply▲I don't think there is any reason a game _needs_ more. I don't think there is any gameplay experience that couldn't be enjoyably delivered on this hardware. And it's a massive disappointment that minimum requirements bloat has been out of control lately.
With how PC part prices have exploded after AI data center buying, I think we will see developers suddenly discover that you don't actually need half these specs to run games.
What many games need to do more is to better optimize. And I’m talking about graphics, not time to market.
reply▲I doubt the rest of the system will be able to do these high resolution versions. It's basically a console, not a gamer PC.
reply▲Especially if you do stuff like "AI" upscaling, frame generation, and raytracing.
reply▲This is the real answer. Vram is largely dependent on the resolution you're running, and at 1080p 8gb vram is fine. People who want 20GB vram are probably going to build their own machines anyways, the steam machine is meant to be a console replacement to my understanding.
reply▲I'd argue that 1080p gaming is also perfectly fine. These days most games have split the UI/window resolution from the game resolution. So you can have 4k sharp text and UI, while the actual game runs at 75%/50% resolution and you largely can't tell the difference while sitting on the couch.
reply▲Is it dependent on the resolution your running, or is it the size of all textures that need to be cached in RAM? The amount of data needed to framebuffer 1080p vs 4K isn't that great
reply▲I rock a 2070 super with 8GB vram and I'm still waiting for a big reason to upgrade. Games run good, and I play them at 1080p on my couch.
The steam machine will be a very good upgrade!
I'm thinking maybe it's unified memory? They posted "16GB DDR5 + 8GB GDDR6 VRAM" as the specs as RAM. Typically you'd put the GPU-only VRAM together with the GPU, but the GPU has it's own separate row in the specs. Kind of suspicious how they placed those together like that, isn't it?
reply▲It's not unified here. The Steam Deck is and does not list them separately.
reply▲GabeN send me a devkit! I make Rogue Stargun VR (roguestargun.com) which should be able to run on standalone
reply▲reply▲How do I get a devkit? Both Meta and Pico have sent me free dev headsets.
I e-mailed GabeN directly this morning...
I emailed him directly, and holy shit GabeN actually forwarded the e-mail and I'm now on a waitlist
reply▲I really hope for Steam that the timing is right. Given the rising GPU, RAM and now storage prices, I hope they secured their supply chain with a fixed price for components, and at least first batches are going to be affordable enough for the public.
reply▲>Yes, Steam Machine is optimized for gaming, but it's still your PC. Install your own apps, or even another operating system. Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
In a world of locked bootloaders and ever more locked down device, valve is pushing the envolope with a linux based gaming console.
Reporting indicates one of the use cases they designed for is swapping an SD card between steam deck, steam machine and steam frame to bring your installed games along with you, which is technologically unimpressive, but so far against the grain that it's shocking a company would include that kind of functionality.
reply▲This is especially interesting in context of Steam Frame. It's easy to get an unlocked mini-PC, but an unlocked "mainstream" standalone VR device with first-class Linux support would bring something new to the table.
reply▲A reason to get this instead of Playstation/Xbox is that games on Steam are significantly cheaper through keys sites like g2a.com or just waiting for discounts.
Playstation/Xbox know you're locked in because you've already sunk money into the console, and they use this pricing power against you.
I work in games.
Please don't buy games from g2a and the likes. In the best case, g2a make money and the developer doesn’t . in the worst case you're buying bogus keys or stolen accounts.
Please, just pirate games instead.
> in the worst case you're buying bogus keys or stolen accounts
Maybe this is just a hole in my knowledge but I don't see how this could be the case.
Regarding stolen accounts: Once I activate a Steam key, I can't deactivate my copy to get my key back (I don't think anyways). How would a stolen account generate steam keys?
Regarding bogus keys: If the keys primarily didn't work I suspect that we would see deplatforming of the site by payment processors. They generally don't like when all their customers issue chargebacks.
I think there is some risk that keys sold in a grey market are purchased by stolen credit cards but I can't imagine that this is too prevalent. I would think that the credit card owner would dispute the charge and Steam would deactivate the key.
> Regarding stolen accounts
A good number of these sites sell accounts, not keys. You buy an access to an account that you log in to, with the key enabled on it. Again, best case it’s a region swapped key between 5 people and g2a get paid and the devs get nothing. Worst case it’s a stolen credit card purchasing a single key.
> I would think that the credit card owner would dispute the charge and steam would deactivate the key.
Yes. Chargebacks are painfully expensive for the vendor. One chargeback for a $10 game likely undoes 4/5 sales.
https://www.tinybuild.com/single-post/2017/04/28/g2a-sold-45... This story did the rounds a few years ago explaining how much it cost a small publisher
> I would think that the credit card owner would dispute the charge and Steam would deactivate the key
There's a real issue for both Valve and the game dev if this happens. The public isn't going to take this key doesn't work or worse my game stopped working after I bought it and blame nebulous credit card fraud, they're going to blame Valve and/or the dev
> There's a real issue for both Valve and the game dev if this happens. The public isn't going to take this key doesn't work or worse my game stopped working after I bought it and blame nebulous credit card fraud, they're going to blame Valve and/or the dev
It's actually worse than that. G2A have a "consumer friendly" approach whereby if your code doesn't work, they'll basically just take your word for it and give you a new one. In effect what it means is they don't really care if the codes are stolen/duds, they'll just go through _more_ to avoid them having a chargeback against them.
Ouch! I got one or two games from a key seller some years ago. I never knew these sites were such a shady act. I really, actually thought they just bought the keys in bulk during a sale to resell them later. TIL :(
reply▲I'm a firm believer in letting bygones be bygones. I bought from them too (cdkeys back in the day) before i learned the truth!
reply▲Just pirate the games instead of using key sites, they're full of chargeback scams that often end up costing developers more money than piracy. Those ten bucks you save really aren't worth the trouble of losing your account over.
With how often Steam games are on sale, you may ass well wait a little longer and buy directly through Valve.
The beauty of PC is that you can also buy games through GOG and Epic if they offer a better price.
A big thing here is that you can always buy another or build another PC that can run this stuff if you don't like the Steam Machine. You cannot build a PS5/Xbox to do the same.
reply▲Don't forget the subscription-free multiplayer
reply▲Storage seems small to how crazy big some games have bee
EDIT:
Maybe it needs a combo ssd for system + hdd for storage
reply▲I've been using my Steam Deck + Steam Dock to play Hades II on my TV using my Xbox controller. It's been a fantastic experience. I can't imagine how much better a device like Steam Machine and Steam's own controller would make it.
reply▲Apparently js on both this and Frame page causes the webpage to die (entire page grey area) when scrolling on iphone with link opened from steam app.
reply▲Looks like the og Nintendo Gamecube but modernized.
reply▲reply▲While we're at it, the Steam Controller kind of resembles a space invader. :)
reply▲the GabeCube pun pratically makes itself
reply▲> HDMI 2.0
The HDMI Forum yet again rearing it's ugly head by continuing to block GPU manufacturers from implementing HDMI 2.1 in the Open Source drivers
Yup. This really needs to be fixed. There have been on-going bug reports on it for years. AMD just needs to move the hdmi 2.1 stuff behind a firmware binary blob already like NVIDIA does. It's so annoying not having full quality HDMI. It's the only think keeping me from using Linux on my current gaming PC that is hooked exclusively up to my TV... Either that or TV's need to start having Display Port.
reply▲This is a big miss for me. I can’t use my TVs 120Hz VRR mode without HDMI 2.1.
I realize the Xbox Series X is beleaguered at this point, but apart from playing games that are on Steam but not Xbox, I can’t see why I would prefer the Steam Machine.
After commenting i looked up the actual capabilities of the port and it turns out while the port is officially only HDMI 2.0 it actually still supports 120Hz, HDR and VRR anyway. So basically it only doesn't support Display Stream Compression for 144Hz and beyond.
I quickly tested this by connecting my PC running Linux with a RX 6800 to my TV (LG C4). 120Hz, VRR and HDR were all available.
At 4K? Or are you limited to a lower resolution due to bandwidth constraints?
reply▲Yes, 4K120Hz!
My TV could do 144Hz but i couldn't select it so 4K120 seems to be the limit.
reply▲Try for yourself. I get 4k120Hz when connecting my laptop directly via HDMI.
reply▲Yeah I have tried it for myself. I am limited to 4K60 when using the HDMI 2.0 port on either my M1 Mac mini or M1 Pro MacBook Pro and LG B2 TV. I do get 4K120 with VRR with newer Macs with HDMI 2.1 as well as my Xbox Series X. It has been my understanding that 4K120 with HDR and VRR requires HDMI 2.1, which is why those HDMI 2.0 limited systems don’t work. Not having a Steam Machine myself, I would assume its HDMI 2.0 port would be similarly limited.
Edit: I should add, I do get 4K120 VRR and HDR on the M1 Macs when connected to a monitor via Thunderbolt or Thunderbolt to DisplayPort adapter, and I would expect a Steam Machine to be similar using DisplayPort, but my TV only has HDMI input and so can’t work in this mode (and a Thunderbolt to HDMI adapter doesn’t work either).
I get 4k120Hz when connecting the output from a HDMI 2.0 port on my laptop to the HDMI 2.1 port on my TV (Sony TV, it has 4 HDMI ports, but for some reason only ports 3 and 4 support HDMI 2.1, 120Hz, VRR).
reply▲"Luckily," the hardware won't allow for 4k@120Hz on visually cutting edge games anyway.
reply▲This kind of inspires me. I have an i5-1340p NUC I’m not using for anything at the moment, I wonder if I could press it into service as a sort of “dry run” for this type of experience
reply▲ecef9-8c0f-437421 hours ago
[-] I really like my steam deck.
After buying it I wanted to Download Musik and checkout some Films just to realize they removed all non game media years ago
reply▲Go into desktop mode and solve it like you would on any other PC.
reply▲What's the cost? Doesn't seem we can buy yet.
reply▲I priced out an upgrade for my machine: Radeon 9070XT, motherboard and PSU, coming in at roughly $1000. Part of me knows I should probably just buy this instead.
reply▲I find it weird that a new device in 2025 still comes with only one USB-C port and otherwise only USB-A. Is USB-C that much more expensive? Is it about power delivery?
reply▲USB-C is still not widely adopted for many specific uses, in particular peripherals (keyboard/mouse dongles)
Logitech finally got their USB-C dongle out last year I think ? Keychron only offers USB-A as far as I know. And many other keyboard and mouse brands are in the same boat. Depending on your setup that's already 2 USB-A ports needed. You can put an adapter, but you're then dongling a dongle.
PS: just realized Valve's own VR to PC adapter is also USB-A.
> [...] only offers USB-A as far as I know. And many other keyboard and mouse brands are in the same boat.
Many new computers (including this Steam Machine) have exactly two USB-2-only USB-A ports (the rest of the USB ports being more capable). It's not hard to guess what they're for: the keyboard and the mouse.
I was about to bitch about Logitech and their USB-A dongle yesterday and looked to see that they did finally produce a USB-C dongle. Miracles do happen.
reply▲I would imagine because most peripherals you'd connect to this are still mostly USB-A. Controllers, mice, keyboards, USB sticks, ...
reply▲Most peripherals these days have a detachable cable, so they can be used with USB-C or A. The main issue would be those wireless dongles.
reply▲They haven't mentioned it anywhere, but non-upgradable CPU/GPU/RAM/SSD would be a massive deal breaker.
Also why announce it without a price?
While it's a dealbraker for me too, locking the spec is how Valve can make a stable hardware target for devs with the "Steam Deck Verified" program, which they've also announced is coming to this box. This is one of the main reasons the specs for the Deck have remained almost identical since launch as well, Valve have said as much in interviews.
I expect to see this and the Deck try to follow locked hardware revisions every few years, just like a console, to allow the verified program to work effectively.
This product is so not aimed at those of us already building our own gaming boxes, but I'm guessing more a way to tempt those who have only ever owned gaming consoles into the Steam ecosystem.
> https://www.steamdeck.com/en/verified
FWIW some early access previews note the box does have a socketed M2 SSD and what looks like upgradable RAM.
"One USB-C and four USB-A ports."
I'm confused...
In case you have four old usb-powered lamps or appliances you'd like to connect to the thing.
reply▲Many comments here and on similar posts bring up only keeping Windows for games, and only then for games that require heavy anti-cheat.
Is there a reason there couldn't be non-regulation copies of games that don't do anti-cheat but are otherwise fine. Like metal baseball bats, oversized golfballs, etc. Official, but not allowed in competitions?
Sorry… expandable via microsd? They’re terribly slow and unreliable, just cattle-chute us to using ssds over usb like consoles
reply▲It's just Linux, so you should be able to use a USB drive fine. I believe the idea is to use the same microSD card as a Steam Deck and Steam Frame (which also has microSD). Easily move games between systems.
reply▲You can swap out the NVMe SSD too.
reply▲And yet somehow steam deck has absolutely zero issues with microsd cards
reply▲I am hyped for the improved gyro controller. Gyro aiming is so good that after some time it became way better than my mouse aiming.
reply▲The only thing I'd like to know, if the CPU/GPU will be replaceable? The specs say "Semi-custom AMD Zen 4" and "Semi-Custom AMD RDNA3", but I don't see "soldered" anywhere, so I guess maybe they'll be switchable? If not with off-the-shelves components, maybe Valve will offer their own upgrade kits in the future?
reply▲RDNA 3 is going to hold this machine back. DLSS is far and away better, but Nvidia's apathy towards Linux has made playing on something like Bazzite a worse experience. Nvidia has little reason to keep investing in Windows gaming drivers given the AI race, so seeing DLSS 4 or something on Linux is a pipe dream.
I think this machine will be decent for most people, but it's no-one with a 3080 is going to be looking at this and thinking "this is worth it", as it's probably coming in at about $750. The question is whether it'll have power parity with whatever the next Xbox is.
Unless AMD/Valve pull a rabbit out of a hat it'll also be missing FSR4 which needs RDNA4, and is AMD's pretty-damn-close catch up to DLSS.
reply▲I thought DLSS4 did work on Linux, and a quick glance at r/linux_gaming seems to say the same.
I agree about RDNA3 holding it back; given its specs I’m hoping its significantly cheaper than $750.
Given the memory configuration it seems extremely unlikely that it's socketed. It's certainly not AM5.
reply▲You mean "16GB DDR5 + 8GB GDDR6 VRAM" or something else? I took it just as they didn't want to put VRAM next to the GPU for some reason, rather than them actually being linked somehow. Maybe I misunderstand.
reply▲Pretty much all (non-Apple) computers in this form factor have a soldered CPU and GPU (and of course soldered VRAM), and slots for DIMMs and M.2.
reply▲Unless you made a typo here-- Apple's equivalent to this is Mac Mini, which has soldered CPU, GPU and RAM (and also the SSD as its not soldered, but it's not standard).
reply▲Yes, that was my point, Mac Mini solders components that are not soldered on most other computers of that form factor, but a socketed CPU or GPU would be extremely unusual.
reply▲reply▲Shame, but makes sense. Thanks for finding it out for us!
You happen to know if the same is true for the RAM? Video seems to mention soldered CPU and GPU only, I skimmed the video but didn't see it mentioned.
I'm seeing conflicting info on the RAM. Some are saying its soldered, others are saying its replaceable.
reply▲It might be because the gpu ram is soldered but the cpu ram is replaceable?
reply▲> I don't see "soldered" anywhere, so I guess maybe they'll be switchable
Unfortunately that's quite a logical jump...
Yeah, I mean my comment is all speculation, guesses and opinions. Given the limited information, some jumping is required, if at least in order to ask questions :)
reply▲I mean, honestly, do you ask the same question about a PS5/Xbox? At a certain point, just build an upgradable PC. I'd equate this product more to a home console than a PC at this point
reply▲I do not, my expectations are also way lower for Sony and especially Windows (still, happy PS5 owner here). I already have a PC, thanks for asking!
Steam specifically pitches this as a console+PC so I thought asking clarifying questions about the PC part of the product made sense.
The best part was that there was no mention of generative AI anywhere.
reply▲Can't wait for benchmarks. I have a Corsair One running exclusively Linux but it is getting old. I wouldn't mind replacing it with something even more compact and quiet.
reply▲The non upgrade-ability of the components is a deal breaker for me considering the estimated cost (800eur?). I'm not sure who the target market for this is, the pc games already have pcs they can upgrade.
What would make the console players consider paying effectively twice (compared to the current ps5 prices) to play the same games? I think such a device would have to be priced competitively with ps5 for me to even consider having a separate gaming device/replace the console in the living room.
Who quoted 800eur? This should be way closer to $500usd or PS5 pricing. Plus the ram and storage is upgradable.
reply▲Who estimated the cost at 800eur?
reply▲Valve is cooking. Their work is paving the way for an open computing ecosystem that is gonna be lit.
reply▲Does anyone know if the resolution is good enough to use it for work? I.e., e-mails, programming, etc
EDIT: I mean the VR googles.
Its a linux computer, if you connect it to a 4k monitor you could use that.
The one issue I see is that it only has one HDMI port, so you couldn't connect two screens without a dongle.
But for all intents and purposes, its a prebuilt pc in a tiny form factor.
dabluecaboose21 hours ago
[-] > The one issue I see is that it only has one HDMI port, so you couldn't connect two screens without a dongle.
Stretching the definition of a "dongle", but the page does specifically say "Ready for all the peripherals and monitors you can throw at it" so I'm assuming some amount of USB-C daisychaining is supported
I mean the VR googles. Will edit my comment.
reply▲But will it be able to run GTA VI?
Truly the only litmus test for any gaming system released from now until 2027.
No external power brick. Instant buy.
reply▲Is that actually a benefit? I'd say for better cooling, it's better to put the brick outside.
reply▲Makes it super portable. Throw this in a bag and use the Steam Frame as a monitor.
reply▲What can I do with steamos besides Gaming?
reply▲LeoPanthera11 hours ago
[-] SteamOS is Arch Linux. So, anything you can do on Arch Linux.
reply▲estimator729216 hours ago
[-] I really, really hope people start calling this device the GabeCube
reply▲I pretty much already use my Steam Deck as my main Desktop computer at home (I have a laptop for work). If I wanted to upgrade, this would be a no-brainer.
reply▲If they can make it play Microsoft Flight Simulator then that'd be pretty enticing
reply▲Two very important questions are:
How long before the steam machine gets obsolete? Would it be hardware upgradeable?
reply▲So, I watched an IGN video on youTube and the answer is no. You can only upgrade the SSD the rest of the components are soldered. The steam machine is intended to be kept simple and for the living room, so while you can tinker with software, DIY hardware tinkering is very limited.
https://youtu.be/xb3a3EKwhGQ?si=qeqBJ5Giwo7IqzxV
I swear I saw a video claiming that you could also upgrade the RAM, but now I'm not sure.
reply▲They mention FSR specifically in the trailer, but this comes with RDNA3, meaning no FSR4 currently. Does this mean that the int8 path for fsr4 is gonna become official to support this and the ps5 pro?
reply▲Steam machine so close to perfect, but 1x USBC and 1GB Ethernet are huge misses for a 2026 device. Also needs more VRAM. May be better to just do custom SFF build.
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reply▲The body is really simple and appealing but as these are rare nowadays I wish they'd consider squeezing an optional optical drive inside or perhaps maybe some external one that would stack on top.
reply▲Aren’t external optical drives quite cheap and only require a USB connection? You could consider that instead and stack it on top.
reply▲How does this compare to the Framework Desktop as a gaming Linux box? I notice only the RAM and storage is upgradable for the Steam Machine, but is there significant performance difference?
reply▲the 8gb vram is very concerning to me. it claims to be 4k ready and 8gb of vram is nowhere near enough for 4k gaming natively. they say that this is offset by using fsr upscaling, which is fine, but then you need whatever amount of vram that is necessary for running the game at 1440p or 1080p and then additional vram for the fsr. this will be fine for casual games or even AA games, but I can't imagine AAA gaming on this thing being anything less than a disaster. hopefully i'm proven wrong.
reply▲> the 8gb vram is very concerning to me. it claims to be 4k ready and 8gb of vram is nowhere near enough for 4k gaming natively
Depends on the game. I get 70fps with many games on 4k with old RX 5700 XT (e.g Path of Exile).
Black Desert runs 70fps with FSR on 4k.
Does FSR use less ram since it is upscaled? Same ram requirements as 1440p?
reply▲4k fsr uses less vram than native 4k but more vram than native 1440p
reply▲I bet they decided to crash their skin market in part because too many people were exploiting the Steam Deck loophole to take the skin money out of the system.
Now people will need to give Steam real money to buy their new devices.
Just found about this skin market/casino thing, and also that my teenage son purchased a skin for 100€, but is still pretty excited and happy about it because «its real value is around 700€».
I am still processing this information.
reply▲Really I think it was otherwise. Dropping prices mean that more transactions happen on their market place. And them selling games or hardware allows them to realise their liabilities as my understanding is that money in wallet on Steam is not yet revenue.
reply▲Maybe, but I also think it was just a dangerous situation for them to be in for no benefit. Teenangers dumping all their money in to skins because tiktok "investors" told them to, and then trading them on sketchy 3rd party marketplaces both exposes them to risk of regulators cracking down, and doesn't make them much profit.
reply▲Seems like this is very under-spec'd in terms of RAM. I have my doubts that this will run modern games at acceptable performance.
reply▲For everyone talking about anti cheat, you can just install windows then, right?
reply▲The PC looks pretty cool in a small form factor case. And since it runs ArchBTW, you can run a bunch of other games too outside of Steam. Wondering how the pricing will be...
reply▲A little time capsule from when Valve was still trying to drag desktop Linux into mainstream gaming
reply▲[off-topic rant]
Two companies, both (quasi) monopolies in their field.
Company A built its fortune by exploiting people.
Company B built its fortune by building (somewhat) decent products.
Company A developed a very advanced approach to hiring: specific questions to assess a candidate’s psychometric profile, screens to weed out bad choices, and a laser focus on the "top 0.1%".
Company B made it very public that hiring well is vital and encouraged every employee to think about it and participate. They even published an Employee Handbook years ago [0]
Today, many startups copy Company A’s playbook: crafting advanced questionnaires, trick questions, and trying to detect behavioural traits in their candidates.
No startup (that I know of [1]) has adopted Company B’s strategy.
Take your pick on who Company A is.
Company B is Valve.
[0]: http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/Valve_Handbook_LowR...
[1]: I kjnow of one that <<pretends>> to
I love Valve games and I love that they are spending their resources in areas I care about and that feel underserved by other companies, but I don't think the moral comparison is so clear cut. They were also pioneers in micro-transactions, loot crates, software distribution tax, and turning Counter-Strike skins into a speculative frenzy.
reply▲I have to admit, I never got into micro-transactions and loot craetes. I did play CS, but never cared about skins and focused on head shots - I am ignorant in this aspect.
reply▲> Company A built its fortune by exploiting people.
> Company B built its fortune by building (somewhat) decent products.
It's the same thing.
Just waiting on a steam pass and I’ll never buy a console again.
reply▲I've been looking at getting a Bee-link box to run as a TV computer and plex server. I'm definitely holding of buying until I see the pricing on this!
reply▲HDMI 2.0 is a bit of a bummer. No Dynamic HDR, VRR, or eARC.
reply▲We can now start to dream of a future without Windows Kernel level Anti Cheat software in every competitive multiplayer game.
reply▲Does this suddenly become the best supported ARM desktop?
reply▲> No giant brick! Steam Machine's power supply is built right in.
Great! Extremely great!
Has anyone managed to scroll to the bottom? The page crashed on me if I scroll down too much. Is there a price point at the bottom?
reply▲These links open the Steam app on my phone and crash. :(
reply▲Forcing the use of the steam app for 2FA is such an ass move. Keeping this as a reminder of Valve still being a corporation with interests that can shift to the worst in a single day.
reply▲KeePassXC supports Steam's TOTP.
reply▲hollow-moe18 hours ago
[-] I sure won't call reverse engineered function and root mandatory to extract the keys from the app, "not forcing the user".
reply▲I had to install the app to try and work around a problem with Steam, and then had the same problems just browsing. You can probably disable that behavior, but I ended up just uninstalling the app entirely.
The support experience was so bad that I got really soured on Valve, and can't even get excited for these announcements now.
If I uninstall the app, I’m unable to login to Steam due to 2FA.
reply▲Opening them in a private tab circumvents that behavior (at least for me)
reply▲I'm surprised they went for ARM in the desktop, but for x86 on the handheld. Does this mean the handheld will move to ARM aswell?
reply▲>Semi-custom AMD Zen 4 6C / 12T
the desktop is also x86, the VR headset (Frame) is ARM
If they want to capture the console audience its better be priced like one too and not prevent me from playing multiplayer games due to Linux and anti cheat software not playing nice
Anything above $600 is DOA and that's with accepting the fact that the most popular games will be not available on the platform
> not prevent me from playing multiplayer games due to Linux and anti cheat software not playing nice
All other consoles are much more limited in terms of games available you know?
Wonder if they'll ship worldwide.
reply▲Maybe this will have better luck this time, and who knows, studios might finally care to do at Steam OS native builds.
reply▲Maybe they'll pull a Cyberpunk, and just add a "Steam Machine" setting to their Windows version when you run it in translation.
I'd prefer that. It's easier for developers, easier for me, and only harms the already-negligible market of curmudgeonly native pundits that probably don't use Steam in the first place.
Then eventually they will suffer the same fate as OS/2 "runs Windows better".
Don't build castles on kingdoms ruled by other overlords.
> Don't build castles on kingdoms ruled by other overlords.
If anyone was scared by that, native software wouldn't exist anywhere.
Seems you're still butthurt about the low adoption rate of... well, alternative API vendors. Truly a shame, I wish Linux could help.
Microsoft is the one that is butthurt with SteamOS.
Anyone that thinks one of the biggest console and desktop vendors, and publisher after ABK deal, is going to let another platform translating their systems win the race, is not paying attention to Microsoft's history.
When that happens, people would have liked that studios, not Microsoft owned, actually cared abandon Steam OS native games.
I play games on the platforms they are native, since Loki is no longer, I don't do GNU/Linux gaming, only Android, Windows and PlayStation.
Damn. Windows might lose!
reply▲This is exciting. I can't wait to get rid of Windows altogether. I only put up with it for gaming purposes.
reply▲Steam is starting to become the 'Apple Computer Inc.' everyone wants.
reply▲This is likely the push i need to fully ditch windows and go install linux on my PC. Can't wait to preorder!
reply▲Wonder if there is a good remote with voice input to use for YouTube and Kodi so I can replace my shield TV.
reply▲I haven't had any problems with my shield since the update that killed it about 3 years ago.
Or maybe I've just gotten used to it?
Are you having issues with yours?
My Shield is 7 or 8 years old at this point and still going strong. Was very much hoping for something like this from Steam just in case something were to happen to it.
reply▲I doubt those specs are enough for running games at good graphics settings.
reply▲Wait. Will I be able to play Subnautica 2 on this?
reply▲I'm really wondering about the CPU+GPU.
Like in some contexts it sounds like a single APU with both.
But then it has normal and graphics RAM?
So is it 2 SoC? Or one connected to two kinds of RAM? Does the GPU have direct access to the non graphic memory?
The dedicated RAM makes it looks like 2 chips, but number of CU and similar make it look like an APU/integrated graphics???
I mean even with FSR 8GiB of graphics RAM is a bit tight for 4k60fps. But on the other hand recent consoles (e.g. PS5 Pro) do promise similar things and have 16GiB for _both_ the CPU and GPU which in effect also means only roughly around 8GiB dedicated to the GPU. So it still is viable. And if the GPU could directly access the non graphic RAM then it could easily outperform a classical 8GiB RAM GPU????? But I guess it's probably nothing fancy like that.
One good thing about it not having a AMD Max SoC or similar is that it probably will have console pricing. I mean for Valve Steam devices are about making sure Windows can't kill Steam and Steam staying relevant even if Windows decides to suicide themself with ads. So I would guess the price concept is similar to the Steam Deck, no loss, but also not a huge profit margin.
I thought it is very easy to burn and SD card. Since when can you use it as storage expansion?
reply▲Steam Deck uses them the same way and it seems to work fine.
reply▲I just need more RAM. 16GB is unfortunately not enough for me.
With some luck it would be easy to upgrade ourselves.
I’m just not seeing the market for this. Why not build a better steam deck dock instead?
reply▲This project is a gaming console dream.
Compact and looks nice, no qualms about displaying it in the living room, with customizable front panels.
Optimized to just barely hit 4K 60 fps as cheaply as possible.
Controllers designed to avoid stick drift, easy to charge, and featuring low-latency wireless connections.
Stream from a Steam Machine to a Steam Deck or a Steam Frame if you have one; the Steam Machine enhances your other purchases further.
Instantly supports everyone's libraries of dozens, if not hundreds, of games acquired over the years.
And you can just use it as a desktop computer if you like?
Give me the Gabecube!
Video games were the only reason for me to use Windows, now that Steam solved this problem no reason to look back anymore. I am also not big fan of multi-player games, so not being able to play games with anti-cheat system buried deep into their binaries isn't an issue.
reply▲For this to truly become a console replacement, Steam needs to mint agreements with Netflix, Spotify and Discord.
Netflix and Spotify could live as a 'game' application in the store. Spotify also is fairly easy to plug into Steam's overlay music control (currently via Decky plugins).
Discord just needs integration with the Steam Friend List. I know Valve wants Steam Friends to compete with Discord, but that ship has sailed every since 2020 (and frankly, the entire decade before that when they let it languish).
I'll never understand why anyone would want to use Discord.
reply▲gorfian_robot20 hours ago
[-] echoing others here in that I want Steam Lap(top).
I am old and never into controller/couch gaming after the Atari era. I prefer either keyboard/mouse or gameboy for those nintendo exclusives.
I also travel a lot and a console or desktop PC just doesn't make sense in my life.
Maybe soon!
You could always just install the Steam client on a regular laptop. All of Valve's hardware is basically just booting into that anyway.
reply▲Nothing keeps you from buying an amd-based thinkpad with ubuntu and steam on it. I run god of war on mine, no problem.
reply▲> CPU Semi-custom AMD Zen 4 6C / 12T up to 4.8 GHz, 30W TDP
> GPU Semi-Custom AMD RDNA3 28CUs 2.45GHz max sustained clock, 110W TDP
> RAM 16GB DDR5 + 8GB GDDR6 VRAM
All of those seem a little low (at least judging by power usage) when compared to your average tower gaming PC build, but modern parts are pretty power efficient and given the form factor (and hopefully reasonable price) it seems like it's gonna be a pretty good device - definitely enough for most indie titles, all e-sports titles, even AA/AAA games with some upscaling/framegen, although I predict that your average UE5 slop game will wipe the floor with it. That doesn't reflect badly on the hardware, just how the devs use the engine in some cases, but at the same time being able to use it as a regular SFF PC is nice as well, actually a good reason to buy it compared to most consoles.
Oh, c'mon. I've been waiting for that machine for years. So much that I bought the Steam Deck out of frustration b/c it was
so close.
Two weeks ago I got tired and built a mini-ATX gaming PC with a RTX 5080.
Way to go Steam nonetheless. I can get 100% behind a Windows-less gaming future. I may even buy this for a 2nd screen or for the kids.
Yeah, I understand but it but I wasn't referring to performance only, mostly to "living room PC gaming" in a convenient package, almost like a home appliance. I really hope Steam can pull this off.
reply▲They're gonna sell millions
reply▲FloatArtifact8 hours ago
[-] One disappointment is that's not geared towards media playback or apps like netflix. In the interviews, they mention relying on the web-based versions of apps. Unfortunately, they often come with artificial limitations (limited streaming quality) by companies such as Netflix.
reply▲It's a computer that runs Linux.
reply▲FloatArtifact7 hours ago
[-] > It's a computer that runs Linux.
I'm fully aware of that. Imagine sideloading mobile applications on the steam machine. It's very hard to get a platform that reasonably respects your privacy. Smart TVs and boxes like Roku go out of their way to invade privacy. I'm not sure about Apple TV. It would be nice to be able to use the steam box as a replacement _officially_. I have no doubt there will be some sort of community effort.
I'm still waiting for Steam Deck 2! Come on!
reply▲They already said there won't be a successor until a significantly more powerful and power-efficient SoC than what they are currently using is available.
reply▲Ugh I was about to downvote you but thanks for the tip.
A Snapdragon would be perfect for a handheld. Hope the "machine" goes well and they change their mind.
i am ditching my ps5 for this, go valve!
reply▲Is this the end of Windows for gaming?
reply▲I don't think there is an end to Windows gaming. It's the de-facto standard PC gaming platform. If there is a real end to its reign, it will be in decades, as in, at least 20 years.
reply▲I guess right now the GPU is too weak. And ofc even if the hardware steps up, there are always root-kit games gatekeeping :(
reply▲The beginning of the end.
reply▲it's meant for 'high-end' gaming but doesn't come with a lan connection(?)
reply▲What do you mean? There's 1 gigabit ethernet.
reply▲What on earth is this abomination of a website? My locale is Greek and I'm presented with an auto-translated page in which most sentences don't make any sense. And I don't think it's AI slop, it's too bad to be even that. It feels more like google translate from a decade ago, translating everything word by word. FFS, go to fiverr and hire an actual human that knows how to translate stuff.
Oh, and of course you're presenting greek text, as awful as it is, but didn't think to check if the font you're using supports greek at all.
I'm sure it's the same for lots of other languages. sigh
i18n is hard.
reply▲It really isn't. Hire someone that actually speaks the language and can review the page before deployment. Otherwise, don't do it.
reply▲It looks pretty bad on the photos.
reply▲I thought it looked pretty attractive? Small, understated, something that would fit in pretty much anywhere without clashing. It doesn't have anything resembling a "gaming" aesthetic, which is a huge plus in my book.
reply▲I have a Steam Link and the Original Steam controller. The manufacturing while perfectly functional isn't that high quality.
This looks similar. Kinda like a mid-ranged PC case quality.
It doesn't have to be all gamer RGB, but, for me, it has to look well-designed, e.g., like Apple products. The Steam Machine looks fine, but the controller looks cheap and all the buttons seem too far away from each other, as if it's meant to be held by someone with large hands.
reply▲Oh, I was just talking about the steam machine.
For a controller, I don't care how it looks at all. All that matters is how it feels.
Nothing really looks like Apple products except Apple products though, so you are locking yourself out of buying pretty much anything except Apple with this idiosyncrasy. Which I'm sure Apple is quite pleased about.
reply▲It does kinda look like a regular SFF PC case rather than a bespoke piece of hardware, but maybe they were going for that.
reply▲The biggest complaint about the PS5 is that it stood out too much. That's the one compelling point about the Xbox Series series designs - they don't look out of place in your entertainment centre.
This is the same - you can put it somewhere people can see it and it's not an eyesore.
Yeah the PS5 definitely went too far in the other direction. Too many curves making it take up even more space than it needs to as well (although that could have been an intentional choice to stop people from putting things on top of it).
reply▲is that good bad or bad bad?
reply▲Irrelevant bad. It's a gaming product, you're not expected to wear it in public so the look doesn't matter.
reply▲"the look doesn't matter"
I think Sony would disagree:
We wanted to do something that was bold and daring almost. We wanted something forward facing and future facing, something for the 2020s [...] The PS5's design is meant to demonstrate Sony's belief that the technology inside and the games that run on it are as eye-catching as the outside you see [...] that the form factor of [...] the PS5 is meant to "grace" your living room.
The PlayStation sits in the living area of most homes, and we kind of felt it would be nice to provide a design that would really grace most living areas. That's what we've tried to do. And, you know, we think we've been successful in that.
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/sony-boss-explains-why-the...
Sony's dead wrong here. You want what's eye-catching in your living room to match your other things or fade out of sight. This design is nondescript and you can get your own custom panels if you want.
reply▲My point was that the look does matter. Whether you like the look is a different story.
reply▲not everybody has to be Apple, but the ugliness of this page (and the others) is astounding
reply▲What's ugly on the page? I think it's perfectly fine, you can find all the informations etc.
reply▲Can I use it as a jellyfin server?
reply▲Can I use it as a jellyfin client? Does that... make sense?
I bought a new tv (samsung s90d) and I haven't found have a great way to watch my jellyfin media. This tv doesn't have a jellyfin client in the samsung app store.
I feel like I'm being stupid here, would love some suggestions :P I've got a local jellyfin server running on a home server in the basement.
yeah it's just a Linux x86 desktop (Arch Linux) -- although, you'd likely want to make sure Jellyfin's hardware acceleration works well with AMD APU (last time I checked the AMD was under experimental)
reply▲The Ouya finally realized.
reply▲> Yes, Steam Machine is optimized for gaming, but it's still your PC. Install your own apps, or even another operating system. Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?
Isn't it just a relief to see a product announcement where this is a proudly announced selling point.
"Yes, Steam Machine is optimized for gaming, but it's still your PC. Install your own apps, or even another operating system. Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?"
reply▲It might be PR speak ... but for me it is working.
reply▲you can already do whatever you want to the steam deck. it's just linux with a readonly base that gets atomically updated. but you can rip it out and do whatever. it's your hardware.
reply▲This will be a great reality check for consoles. If they don't drop their atrocious fees for online play I can't see what is the incentive to purchase PS/XBox in 2026.
reply▲Any idea on cost? Wish the GPU had 12 or 16GB of ram but this is serviceable.
I think I’ll wait for the gen2.
valve shouldering entire linux desktop growth for 10+ years
reply▲Huge streamers/youtubers were already listing games to test on the steam machine... which I already know they do not work on valve proton... (and the lack of official and legally required technical support will show on the medium/long run since proton/wine is not reliable in time).
This may backfire if valve does not come clean with this technical support.
> We are expanding our Verified program to include ratings for Steam Machine, so customers can understand how their games will run.
They are very upfront about it.
>HDMI 2.0
So no 4K 120 Hz ?
> We may be new but it's like we've known each other our whole lives: All Steam Hardware works great together, whether you’re streaming or playing games across devices, including Steam Deck. And because Valve remains committed to an open PC ecosystem, we also play well with others (as in, your other devices).
I am skeptical about this, especially streaming. I assume the steam box will be running steam os aka Linux with iirc kde and leveraging game scope.
I have my steam deck docked to the living room tv and regularly try to stream from my gaming rig running manjaro and hyprland, to mixed results. Moonlight/sunshine has only ever crashed, and steam's native solution will often crash on the deck side immediately, leaving the game running on my PC. Or the game will play but no video will be sent. Or the controller input won't be sent.
They still as of last week have a bug where native steam streaming simply doesn't work if you have the deck docked with Ethernet but also have wifi on. You gotta switch off wifi for it to work or unplug Ethernet.
I've tried to keep a thread going listing options for streaming and the problems with each but valve locked it https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/11/382078096812...
it looks like an ugly mini fridge. Valve's UI aesthetics carried over to their hardware too.
reply▲The elephant in the room: "will this game run on my Steam Machine?"
This is really the part a lot of people don't understand and not a qestion you even have to ask when you buy/download a game for a console.
Some of the biggest games right now like BF6, COD, or Fortnite, League of Legends, chinese gacha games won't run on this. That excludes a massive part of the market, many of whom would be the exact audience for a simpler, more console-like PC experience. There's also no guarantee that future AAA games will be compatible with this day one (8GB VRAM is very limiting already).
Yeah yeah indies but if people want to play X then offering them Z is not an option.
This will be DOA anything over $500
This is true also for steam deck but it’s a success anyway. COD, Fortnite, LoL players can stay on windows. I’m happy to play newest indie game on my Linux machine
reply▲>but it’s a success anyway
That's also debatable. Switch 2 sold 10m units in 6 months compared to the Steam Deck's 4 million in 3 years ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The Steam Deck is niche even among the gaming crowd.
>COD, Fortnite, LoL players can stay on windows. I’m happy to play newest indie game on my Linux machine
This is the mindset that makes the Steam Machine DOA if not priced correctly. No one will pay $800 just to play Hollow Knight in 4k
Worth considering that Nintendo has a massive library of proprietary games they themselves produce (Mario, Pokemon, etc) that Steam does not have.
People buy Nintendo products to play Nintendo games.
Success is relative. The Steam Deck is only unsuccessful if you consider the goal of the device to be "outsell Nintendo". I would argue 4 million units is not merely a success, but a massive success.
reply▲For an interesting comparison, the PS Vita did about 4 million in the first year.
reply▲Good thing Valve is not a publicly traded company unlike Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft.
> This is the mindset that makes the Steam Machine DOA if not priced correctly. No one will pay $800 just to play Hollow Knight in 4k
I will pay that money to finish up my backlog of games on Steam. I already pay that much for Steam Deck anyway.
The Steam Deck also had no marketing and is not sold in retail stores. It's also been a success in kicking off a whole product category of handheld PCs, of which most games will be bought on Steam.
reply▲You can likely install Windows on Steam Machine if you so wish, and then it would actually be a fairly competent mini PC while having great and silent cooling. However, I suppose most casual gamers aren't savvy enough to tinker and install their own OS.
reply▲> There's an LED strip, y'all!
I've never seen marketing embrace southern culture like this.
I love it, y'all!
I wonder if AMD have bothered finishing the gfx drivers for this before release.
reply▲Will it be able to play AAA games with shitty DRM such as Battlefield 6?
Not being able to play these huge titles on Linux really sucks!
It is not a DRM problem, you can run many EA games on Linux with no problems, it is an anti cheat problem, which can not be solved by Valve, it has to be done by EA.
reply▲Correct but the customer doesn't care whose fault it is, they just want to play the latest games.
reply▲Valve making more devices to propogate Steam is a good thing. If they achieve critical mass, EA will then be pressured to implement a compatible solution.
reply▲Sure, it doesn't matter to the customer. But it matters if the problem is going to be solved.
Valve can not solve it. The only way it can be solved is if game studios create anti cheat software, which are effective and can be used within a Linux environment. This will only happen if companies see a profit motive to do this, which will happen if the market is large enough.
Look at it this way: Not having to play those money suckers leaves you more time for all the awesome indies out there!
reply▲Well that’s one of the big reasons why PC gaming on Windows will remain dominant for a very very long time and Linux-based PCs for gaming will always remain behind.
Majority of gamers really don’t care about indie games. (unless they are exceptional)
great news both for linux and gaming
reply▲i hope they can put some price pressure on other small form factor gaming pc
the asus rog nuc is extortionate pricing, and beelink are constantly raising their prices too now
I couldn’t see a purchase link anywhere. Too lazy to check, they potentially lost a customer due to this UI.
reply▲it's meant for gaming and doesn't come with a LAN connection. sad lol.
reply▲another slam dunk from Valve
reply▲One more nail in the coffin of the xbox hardware business. Ouch.
reply▲Unless MS opens up Xboxes for actual gamers (which won't happen). Pity, as Series X is very capable
reply▲To the HL3 faithful, this is your reminder that
NOTHING
EVER
HAPPENS
This is the speculated-about gap in the Steam store events, then?
reply▲Meh, I'm hopeful, but I'll wait for specs.
reply▲16 GB of RAM, 4K@60 FPS, with USB3.
I’m afraid that this steam machine is so underpowered that it is no better if not much significantly slower than a MacBook Pro with a M4 Max.
The specs appear to be from late 2019. Might as well get a PS5 instead.
No thanks and No deal.
>> I’m afraid that this steam machine is so underpowered that it is no better if not much significantly slower than a MacBook Pro with a M4 Max.
Isn't that one of the fastest laptops money can buy?
"If the Steam Machine can't compete with a $3500 laptop I don't even want it!"
reply▲Because that worked well with the last Steam Machine in 2015 didn't it? Even though it was much cheaper. /s
Even with specs from 2019 - 2020, it already lost to the consoles on arrival and still can't even play the DRM'ed games on Day 1 as long as it is on SteamOS.
You might as well get a Macbook M4 Max or an equivalent Windows gaming laptop as the Steam Machine is too underpowered for PC gamers and as long as it runs SteamOS (Linux) is unable to play the same games as those on Windows on day 1.
The XBox Series X and PS5 both have 16 GB of RAM; in the case of the XSX that's 10 GB for the GPU and 6 GB for the OS and apps.
So 16 GB in this case, for running the same games and outputting to the same displays, seems entirely reasonable.
> The specs appear to be from late 2019. Pass
Probably more accurate to say the specs are from 2020, which is when the PS5 and XSX launched.
> it is no better if not much significantly slower than a MacBook Pro with an M4 Max
Does the M4 Max run SteamOS and your Windows steam games very well? I guess this Steam Machine is going to be embarassingly underpowered if it also costs $3500.
On the other hand, if it is a mass-market 'console' PC priced at ~$500-750 then I think it's okay if it's 'no better...than a Macbook Pro with M4 Max'.
> Probably more accurate to say the specs are from 2020, which is when the PS5 and XSX launched.
In 2026, those specs are significantly underpowered and close to outdated.
> Does the M4 Max run SteamOS and your Windows steam games very well?
Even if it does with Asahi Linux [0] it would still run over the Steam Machine in performance alone, especially with 2024 specifications.
We both know that neither of them can run DRM'ed games on Linux on Day 1 on Steam.
> I guess this Steam Machine is going to be embarassingly underpowered if it also costs $3500.
Not even the original Steam Machine sold well even though the lowest priced model was at ~$450 with the highest priced one was at $1,110 and was still also behind the state of the art console specs at the time.
> On the other hand, if it is a mass-market 'console' PC priced at ~$500-750 then I think it's okay if it's 'no better...than a Macbook Pro with M4 Max'.
Then there would be no point for Windows PC gamers or console players at all to switch. It only appeals to hardcore Linux users and at least competes against a Framework laptop running steam which is a very low bar to beat.
[0] https://asahilinux.org/2024/10/aaa-gaming-on-asahi-linux/
yencabulator19 hours ago
[-] Apple's hardware secrecy means only M1 has been reverse engineered to any degree. You talking about M4 is utterly irrelevant to gaming.
reply▲If it competes with a PS5, but runs my Steam Library, it’s automatically won IMO.
reply▲I really hope that we'll be able to put Windows on this.
reply▲The landing page says "Who are we to tell you how to use your computer?" so I'm assuming you'll be able to do whatever you want with it. Similar to the Steam Deck.
reply▲I hope we can, too. I really hope we don't.
reply▲"Over six times the horsepower of Steam Deck" ≈ RTX 3060 Laptop?
reply▲Why does Steam/Valve care so much about Linux? I know as devs we all would prefer to use Linux/Unix. But developer experience isn’t a good business justification.
reply▲It's because Valve's entire business model is currently reliant on Microsoft not being emboldened to try and lock down software downloads to only occur through the Microsoft Store.
15 or so years ago, Microsoft started making moves in that direction and Valve immediately started trying to build and sell Linux based gaming machines in order to try and protect themselves somewhat from Microsoft. Those Linux gaming machines (Steam Machines 1.0) were a massive failure because they were expensive, and had very very limited game support.
Valve then spent around a decade improving Wine, building Proton, and designing the SteamDeck, which was a great success for them and is now making lots of people take Linux seriously for gaming. Now they're moving up the value chain and trying to make Linux the go-to place for PC gaming.
They've still got a big battle ahead of them, but already Linux users are around 4% of active Steam users, and the Linux experience is rapidly improving. Meanwhile, Microsoft seems to be bleeding goodwill, and is actively pissing off a huge amount of their Windows audience while simultaneously giving up on Xbox, so this is really perfect timing for Valve now.
You can basically tailor the OS specifically for the device and remove unneeded bloat. Also the threat of Microsoft and Windows as mentioned by other users. The introduction of the Microsoft Store with Windows 8 basically kicked off this whole move for Valve. While it took over a decade of work, its paying great dividends now.
reply▲Probably to keep MS from locking down gaming on Windows and cutting out Valve as distributor.
Add to that, Windows isn't usable on 10ftUI or really anything that is not fully-controlled (think ATMs) or desktop with kb/m.
Lots of devs prefer Linux but are forced to used Windows by their employers. So both can be true at the same time.
reply▲The survey accounts for personal use as well. If this was the case, I'd expect the personal Linux use be higher than the professional use.
reply▲Used != Prefer
reply▲Even for personal use? If devs preferred Linux so much, I'd expect them to use it at least in their own time. But, what the stats say is that people use Win even more when it comes to personal devices, and Linux, not even a tenth of a percent. If anything, that looks like that dev don't prefer Linux. They use when the employer pushes it onto them, but not anywhere else.
reply▲The problem is that many games and software still only work on windows.
reply▲Is that why developers don't prefer Linux?
reply▲Probably because Steam doesn't want to sell an Xbox and Microsoft won't license Windows to be rebranded.
reply▲why wouldn't you use linux when you are shipping your own, custom, purpose-built device?
reply▲They don't want Microsoft to be able to use its control of the OS to push them out. It's not the Valve needs to control the OS, it's that they don't want a company that views them as a competitor to have said control. Linux ensures that they have protection from that.
reply▲For starters, they can't really customize Windows for the devices they release.
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