OpenMANET Wi-Fi HaLow open-source project for Raspberry Pi–based MANET radios
126 points
16 hours ago
| 10 comments
| openmanet.net
| HN
mk_stjames
58 minutes ago
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Ever since 802.11ah devices started appearing I've thought it would be perfect for partnering inside wireless IP cameras... and hell, make them mesh together with something like this so each one configured on your network extends the range of the others in it's area. Streaming 720P H265 is easily doable at the speeds the networks achieve for a few cameras, and the range would be perfect for perimeter monitoring most properties ala farms & industrial parks.

This device however - an entire Raspberry Pi + hat for a router to do..? ... seems like a solution in search of a problem to solve.

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bcrl
12 hours ago
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MANET is one of the protocols I was involved in implementing for a certain network protocol suite back around 2012. Mesh routing protocols only work for the most limited of use cases. They don't know about the capacity of the underlying wireless network and basically fall apart when things are congested or there are radios with poor reception. QoS is implemented far better in modern cell phone networks, and if the routing protocol doesn't take QoS into account, it's gonna suck.
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EvanAnderson
15 hours ago
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In case anybody is like me and didn't know what Wi-Fi HaLow is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ah
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jonathantf2
3 hours ago
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I played with HaLow for a while but the only stuff I could get here in the UK was some undocumented crap from AliExpress, anything more robust looking only seems to work in the US. A shame because it’d solve a infrastructure challenge I have to juggle each year
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hexmiles
5 hours ago
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All modules seem to be us-only. Is there a modules usable in eu frequency?
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pantalaimon
4 hours ago
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The airtime restrictions make it pretty much useless in the EU
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easygenes
16 hours ago
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This guy has been promoting and hacking hardware around this project heavily the last few months: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=550fh2n5rUs
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coreyw
15 hours ago
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That guy is not contributing to the open source project.
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victorbjorklund
14 hours ago
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Which is why OP says ”around” the project? Never claimed he is a contributor to the code.
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topazas
4 hours ago
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In Europe still struggle.
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esafak
15 hours ago
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MANETs: back from the dead!? The problem is not the hardware, but the software; apparently, nobody can think of a killer application.
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harporoeder
15 hours ago
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The killer application in this case is ATAK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_Team_Awareness_Kit

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kylixz
10 hours ago
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If anyone wants to help make MANETs better with TAK… check out opportunities on ditto.com where the team is building crdts and using them to help enable SAR. Say Turner sent you in your application if it looks interesting. Particularly the FDE role.
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wakawaka28
13 hours ago
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Is ATAK even useful to civilians? Is it trustworthy?
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adrianpike
13 hours ago
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Yes and yes, we've used it for civilian Search & Rescue in tandem with CalTopo.
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gh02t
11 hours ago
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I use it for hiking, its great.
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Yossarrian22
11 hours ago
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How do you use it for that?
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BertoldVdb
7 hours ago
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It is an offline moving map with very fancy marker etc support. Seems a good choice for a hiking app?
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bb88
15 hours ago
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Meshtastic has been popular, but relies upon a terrible implementation of a mesh -- and it's vastly oversold on its capabilities.

I understand some hams run a meshtastic repeater primarily to convince meshtastic users to become hams.

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aeblyve
14 hours ago
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It's worth commenting to me that MeshCore performs much better than Meshtastic at scale and as an emplaced deployment. We have a very active network of about 60 nodes in the Boston area which feels similar to iMessage in deliverability and speed.

But yes, it can't realistically be compared to something like a "real" MANET system with $10k radios that can do something like 100mbps data rates. It is dramatically more accessible and deployable though.

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swaits
1 hour ago
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MeshCore is a huge step in the right direction. Especially over Meshtastic which is very poorly designed.

However MeshCore makes one fundamental choice which is severely limiting. It uses a single LoRa discriminator and channel for all nodes. That said, LoRa limitations pretty much force this choice.

This, limits a typical network (3 repeaters) to about 500 messages/hour. The throughput scales inversely by how many repeaters you can hear.

The code does try to adjust down the TX power of a repeater in repeater-dense networks, which probably helps keep throughput consistent for a while.

For these things to work at scale they either need something other than LoRa (which is quite novel, but limited) or they need to figure out how to use LoRa in a way which allows for more channelization.

Until then, the “one transmission at a time on the air” in these very low baud networks is severely limiting.

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mystraline
14 minutes ago
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> Until then, the “one transmission at a time on the air” in these very low baud networks is severely limiting.

Semtech announced recently that their new chips will be able to decode all spread factors on a specific bandwidth and center.

That being said, that would allow new LoRa nodes being capable of listening on effectively 8 different channels (that dont conflict) and transmitting on 1.

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kragen
13 hours ago
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Real MANET systems are not defined by their bit rates, but by their ability to take advantages of whatever opportunities for radio communication exist in a given situation.
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ianburrell
14 hours ago
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LoRa has tiny bandwidth. Enough for text messaging if not too many people use it.

HaLow has lots more bandwidth, 433Mbps max, which allows for proper networking. It can bridge to other networks. But the practical range is only 1km. Also, the radios are expensive while LoRa is cheap.

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nativeit
14 hours ago
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I feel like a HAM license is something of an inevitability of my future, although I don’t have any practical need for one. Catching satellite signals in my backyard is a lot of fun.
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bityard
12 hours ago
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I think most hams (myself included) are the type of people whose favorite hobby is collecting more hobbies. Plus, ham radio pairs nicely with tons of other hobbies like electronics, kit building, hiking, solar power, space weather, and (as you say) satellites. I highly recommend it.
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bigfishrunning
14 hours ago
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I felt the same way a few years ago, and got my license in 2023. I still don't know why, but I don't regret it either. There is a ton to play with in that space, if you're a tinkerer I absolutely encourage you to start studying the license materials. You never know where it'll take you.
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grendelt
13 hours ago
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> This technology is especially useful in the civilian space for search and rescue, disaster response, airsoft events, and any disconnected communications scenario.

Airsoft?! Huh?

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kragen
13 hours ago
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Radio communication is a critical advantage in actual infantry fights, so it makes sense that it would be useful for cosplay infantry fights.
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speransky
14 hours ago
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I use MorseMicro in 802.11s mode successfully, just openwrt stuff, any reason to try this project ?
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jrexilius
14 hours ago
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Last time I played with Moremicro they didn't work with real 802.11s and had some hokey proprietary hierarchal tree topology that required a main basestation gateway. ad-hoc, peer-to-peer was broken. They finally fixed their driver?
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wryun
6 hours ago
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The tree mesh thing you're thinking of is actually just EasyMesh (it's a standard!). We're using prplmesh.

But yes, 11s Mesh also works. Let us know on the forum (https://community.morsemicro.com/) or via github (https://github.com/MorseMicro/) if you're having issues. Err, I work for Morse in case that wasn't clear.

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speransky
14 hours ago
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I believe yes, give them other try, my scenarios with one connected station and mesh on drone platforms works out of the box
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