Kodak ran a nuclear device in its basement for decades
123 points
6 days ago
| 10 comments
| popularmechanics.com
| HN
jandrewrogers
59 minutes ago
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When I studied chemistry at university, only a handful of select students were introduced to the nuclear science lab in the basement. It had a lot of spicy isotopes, neutron sources, etc. Even as a chemistry student with free run of the place for years I had no idea it was in the building until the department head pulled a few of us aside.

The reason for the informal secrecy, as it was explained to me, is that every so often someone would find out there was plutonium etc in the basement and have a public freak out, including on occasion other (non-STEM) professors at the same university. These people would try to organize crusades to get it shut down because evil. Intentionally obscuring its existence greatly mitigated this drama. They appreciated us continuing the tradition of keeping it out of sight and out of mind from the general public.

The publicity around this Kodak case was an example of why no one talks about nuclear labs. The public cannot be trusted to engage in a discussion about anything “nuclear” in good faith. There are quite a few areas of science like this.

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orioni
47 minutes ago
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This is just like how universities hide their animal research facilities. It wasn't until the final year of my biology degree that I found out we had a basement floor under our life sciences building where this research is carried out.

I visited a few times as part of a research project I was involved in, and that experience was one of the factors that put me off pursuing a career in biomedical research.

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billy99k
44 minutes ago
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These public freak outs is also why we don't have abundant nuclear energy.

The climate activists of the 60s-90s stopped us from building more reactors, one of the cleanest sources of energy ever known.

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cogman10
36 minutes ago
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Climate activists backed and propagandized by the fossil fuel industry and the KGB.

And now that there are a number of barriers to creating new nuclear, the propaganda has flipped with fossil fuel companies supporting nuclear because they know it'll be decades before anything real can happen.

I have nothing against nuclear and if it can be built I'm for it. But at the moment, solar + battery is quick to deploy and about as cheap as you can get.

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simianparrot
22 minutes ago
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Ok but what about when it’s night time or cloudy?
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goodcanadian
18 minutes ago
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That's where the battery comes in.

Yes, I am over-simplifying the very complex problem of grid management, but so are you.

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ldoughty
6 minutes ago
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Molten salt solar power doesn't care. It remains hot.

Advancements in solar also are improving with clouds.

Also, you know, batteries. When someone makes it cost effective to install a device to sell your car battery power on the grid we'll also have a better time managing the grid during spikes... Would be nice if that also did home battery backup in blackouts... 70 kWh would get me through most of the ones I've experienced.

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ThatMedicIsASpy
30 minutes ago
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I also really enjoy privatizing profits and let the public deal with the aftermath.
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SonOfKyuss
24 minutes ago
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The activists of the 60s-90s were witnesses to the nuclear bombing of Japan, domestic nuclear accidents, as well as a nuclear arms race that threatened to wipe out all of humanity. It is unfortunate that we threw the baby out with the bathwater when it came to nuclear power generation, but the people who had issues with nuclear in that era did have good reasons to be afraid.
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bell-cot
9 minutes ago
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Yep. Also, the pro-nuclear techno-utopians of that era promised that nuclear electricity would be too cheap too meter, nuclear-powered cars would be common, and quite a few other things.

If the public doesn't understand complex new thing X, and advocates for X have obviously told them all sorts of lies - yeah. Don't be surprised if the public becomes extremely skeptical about X.

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fragmede
42 minutes ago
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Same thing with animal testing. You don't get to know where the monkey labs are but the alternative is we test on poor people? learn to keep secrets, people.
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imglorp
3 hours ago
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What a neat device. Unlike those extra spicy, dangerous sources that say "drop and run" on them, this thing only runs when you line up the CF-252 with the HEU plates. It has an off switch to stop the cascade. Perfect for lab use.
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wumms
6 hours ago
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> In 1975, Kodak powered up the country’s first californium neutron flux multiplier (CFX) ... to provide Kodak R&D with an ample stream of neutrons for materials analysis. > If an X-ray shows you the crack in a pipe, neutrons will show you the leak.
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wkat4242
3 hours ago
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It wasn't a secret like the article admits later on.
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jandrewrogers
47 minutes ago
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There are no secrets in a legal sense e.g. NDAs. However, there is a culture around private nuclear labs of giving no hint of their existence so that they can hide in plain sight.

The objective is to avoid attention, not to be secret per se, though the effect can be similar.

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Yokolos
2 hours ago
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Seems like a distinction without a difference to me?

> And aside from a license renewal snafu in 1980, the device made no waves until its existence was shared with the local newspaper—it wasn’t a secret, just unpublicized.

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quinndexter
1 hour ago
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I think "secret nuclear device" and "license renewal" are kind of conceptually incongruous, even if only at a surface level.
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Yokolos
1 hour ago
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The license renewal has nothing to do with anything. It's not related to the incident where its existence was revealed. This is about "secret" vs "unpublicized", not "secret" vs "license renewal".
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IshKebab
34 minutes ago
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In this context "secret" implies they didn't tell the government. Merely not publicising an internal project is totally normal and doesn't warrant "secret project!!"
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alpinisme
16 minutes ago
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I guess that depends on how hysterically you read the word secret (including projecting hysterics on others using it). But we at work have a lot of secret projects. Basically everything is given a project code name until it’s public and if you work in R&D you are told not to discuss your work on such projects either outside the company with friends or inside the company with people who don’t work in R&D. That is the closest to the definition of secret I can imagine. And it sounds like this nuclear lab was in a similar category.

If someone freaks out about it, it’s because they think you’re abusing normal, run of the mill product development secrecy, whether to develop a product that shouldn’t exist or to hide a practice that is never intended to be public and is just called secret to avoid scrutiny from an interested public (who, in this hypothetical scenario, feel that they have a right to be interested — think research into dangerous pathogens next to an unprotected public aquifer).

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fragmede
6 minutes ago
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yeah but is this internal project one where we kidnap homeless people and torture them in the name of science or is it because we spent $50,000 to make a new logo? Some secret are meant to be kept. Others are meant to be blown wide open. Others... Other just are, and nobody need to know. Posting that a particular woman's a slut is a shitty thing to do on Facebook, but if one of my male friends is feeling extra lonely and ready to end it all, there's a date or two I could set him up on.
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pinewurst
6 days ago
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mauvehaus
14 minutes ago
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As a reminder: MIT has a research reactor smack-dab in the middle of Cambridge. It's like a block or two off of Mass Ave near Central.

They give tours, and if you're in the area, it's highly recommended. A great Boston-area date for the right kind of person.

https://nrl.mit.edu/reactor/

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dtgriscom
26 minutes ago
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OK, HN physicists: how did this work?

My first guess was that the beam of Cf252-emitted neutrons, when it hits the U235, triggers new neutrons moving in the same direction, rather than in random directions. This would ensure that any tertiary neutrons would join the crowd and help the amplification while not just heating the system up.

Or, maybe that's the point? It's a not-quite-critical collection of U235 that is pushed even closer to criticality by the Cf252, multiplying the Cf232's neutron flux by "up to 30 times". But, if the U235 neutrons trigger the same emissions as the Cf252 neutrons, then wouldn't that require a razor's edge of criticality?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californium_neutron_flux_multi...

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rzzzt
5 hours ago
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I'm getting "Windows Subsystem for Linux" vibes from the project name. Shouldn't this be called a HEUFX with a Californium source?
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randallsquared
2 hours ago
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> Indeed, it’s difficult to imagine trusting private corporations with the stuff atomic bombs are made of today.

Valar Atomics would like a word.

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richardatlarge
5 hours ago
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Quote: "and though it takes roughly 100 pounds of it to build an atomic bomb...”

Are they stupid at PM or just selling misinformation?

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dmurray
5 hours ago
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This matches other sources on the internet: a bomb requires about 15kg of U-235 [0] with a good use of neutron reflectors, and HEU by definition contains 20%+ of U-235 [1]. We don't know exactly what the U-235 concentration was in the Kodak device, but reasonable values would make the claim "roughly" correct.

[0] https://www.britannica.com/technology/nuclear-weapon/Princip...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_uranium

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_n_b_
2 hours ago
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Their SNM license was for “up to 93.5% enriched”[1] and their decommissioning plan describes them as MTR-type Al-clad plates. So I’d take a reasonable guess that these are at 93% nominal enrichment, like ATR and HFIR fuel plates.

[1] https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML0900/ML090080661.pdf

[2] https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ml0816/ML081690374.pdf

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jeffrallen
4 hours ago
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At least it wasn't "though it takes at least the equivalent of 12.5 bald eagles of it to build an atomic bomb"
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ahoka
3 hours ago
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The whole article is a journalistic nothingburger.
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