LAPD Helicopter Tracker with Real-Time Operating Costs
57 points
53 minutes ago
| 12 comments
| lapdhelicoptertracker.com
| HN
BadBadJellyBean
15 minutes ago
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I find it interesting that the question is "why don't they use drones". My question is: why so much air surveillance? I live in Germany. The only times I hear a helicopter is if someone is being rescued or if someones missing. I rarely see them at all.
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asdff
8 minutes ago
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They bought them and spent a lot of money on supporting infrastructure and are therefore compelled to use them when they chase a middle aged drunken homeless man through a neighborhood.
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Aurornis
2 minutes ago
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> I live in Germany. The only times I hear a helicopter is if someone is being rescued or if someones missing. I rarely see them at all.

Same for me, but I live in America.

The specific location matters a lot. The LA area is more population dense and bigger than might be obvious.

To put it in perspective, the GDP of the LA area is about 1/4 as much as the GDP of your entire country.

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shoddydoordesk
12 minutes ago
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There are high speed police chases (100mph+) in Los Angeles — no exaggeration — on an almost daily basis. Air support is the primary defense tool for law enforcement.

It's so bad that the local TV stations have their own choppers and a dedicated on-screen UI tailored for the chases with GPS-based tracking and speed.

If you're lucky you can catch one of the many YouTube live streams. Here's one from....two days ago: https://www.youtube.com/live/uGiJU-FlpdE

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asdff
9 minutes ago
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They get away from time to time from the airship. Two in one week this past august and I don't think they ever caught the suspects. One drove under an overpass and fled on foot, the other entered LAX airspace which requires waiting on clearance from ATC and got away somehow after that. I don't know why they don't just shoot a magnetic dart at the car with a gps tracker on it.
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efnx
6 minutes ago
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It would have to be a very special dart. Cars are mostly aluminum and foam. A piercing dart would be dangerous and a magnet would really work.
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asdff
2 minutes ago
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Outside certain high performance cars, most cars have steel body panels.
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dilippkumar
9 minutes ago
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> There are high speed police chases (100mph+) in Los Angeles — no exaggeration — on an almost daily basis.

How is anyone driving at that speeds in LA traffic?

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stefan_
11 minutes ago
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I mean in most other places people have simply realized that unless there is an immediate risk to life, the only thing high speed police chases do is create that very risk.

Nicely contrasts with all the news about the omnipresent license plate scanners - it's just pointless, don't take the risk, arrest them at your leisure.

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embedding-shape
7 minutes ago
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Where in Germany though? Helicopters tend to be more popular to use for various purposes in very densely populated places, like Hong Kong or New York City, but you don't really see them much in rural areas except for emergencies.
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c0balt
2 minutes ago
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At least for Berlin I can attest that helicopters, outside of the yellow ones for emergency care, are a very rare occurrence. I have yet so see a police helicopter outside of a large demonstration.
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BadBadJellyBean
3 minutes ago
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In big city. Not rural at all.
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asdff
2 minutes ago
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This was circulating recently and is sort of funny:

https://old.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/comments/1oolm68/lapd_he...

LAPD flies quite recklessly especially downtown, where they aren't even clearing the buildings. News choppers fly much higher, well over the skyscrapers, and have no problems getting very tight shots on whatever subject there is down there.

If you follow them on ADS-B you see they really aren't used that frequently at all for calls and end up in holding patterns with nothing to do really before flying somewhere else for a new holding pattern, until their shift is up presumably.

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0xbadcafebee
30 minutes ago
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https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/audit-says-lapds-use...

  On average, the city spent an average of $46.6 million on the program, the audit disclosed. It also found that there is limited oversight or monitoring of the division, its policies and practices and whether the program is in line with the city's safety needs. [...]
  The department has 17 helicopters and over 90 employees. [..] The city operates their helicopter fleet on a nearly "continuous basis" [..] The total translates to more than $2,900 per flight hour. [...]
  Additional findings in the audit disclosed [..] 61% of the flight time was in fact dedicated to low-priority incidents like transportation, general patrols and ceremonial flights — like a fly-by at a local golf tournament, roundtrip transportation of high-ranking LAPD officers between stations and passenger shuttle flights for a "Chili Fly-In."
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ripberge
32 minutes ago
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As someone who lives in central LA and has them circle my neighborhood frequently, actually shaking my house, I think this is awesome.

These needs should be filled by drones. Way less noisy, dangerous and expensive.

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kylehotchkiss
16 minutes ago
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Down in SD at least, the sheriff's office helicopters serve many purposes. They'll use them for firefighting, hike rescues (often! according to their IG), first responder to an aviation accident, loudly shouting garbled messages through their loudspeaker, etc.

There's just enough high-speed/timely crime here that I prefer they use these over drones. There's some extra legal protections built into helicopters that drones don't get, like prison time if some idiot points a laser pointer.

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VerifiedReports
9 minutes ago
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I seriously doubt that physically rescuing hikers or delivering first-responders to plane crashes represent a large percentage of LAPD helicopter missions. I live in a nice suburb and there's one of them circling over it probably weekly.

I don't see why large drones can't do most of what these helicopters are doing. They're using needlessly expensive helicopters, too.

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asdff
7 minutes ago
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LAPD doesn't conduct rescue operations or anything like that. Different helicopters are used from different agencies.
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polalavik
31 minutes ago
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why LA is spending thousands/hour when drones exist is crazy.
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tcdent
23 minutes ago
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You're talking about technology that's only become realistic in the last couple years. Even then, there's probably nothing off-the-shelf that would serve the current need.

LAPD has been patrolling with helicopters for decades. I have yet to see a drone follow a car in high speed pursuit down the 5 at 100+ MPH.

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digdugdirk
13 minutes ago
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On the other hand, I have seen drones chase down F1 cars at 100+ MPH...

Realistically though, I agree with your sentiment. Solving this would drones would require a constant flock of something more akin to Predator drones.

The better question is - why do we allow high speed pursuit chases in the first place?

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tcdent
2 minutes ago
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> why do we allow high speed pursuit chases in the first place?

AFAIK they've changed their tactics in recent years, but growing up around LA these we're like sporting events on TV. It's a guilty pleasure, but almost everyone I know tuned-in and watched the chase.

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hatthew
6 minutes ago
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As far as I'm aware, high speed drones tend to have quite short flight durations due to battery limitations. Drones that have the range to follow a fleeing suspect for a long time would probably have to be big enough that they could cause a fatal accident if they crash, and in that case I'd rather have a pilot on board. Better reaction time, no risk from jamming, much better field of view/awareness, decades of testing, etc.
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kevin_thibedeau
16 minutes ago
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robotnikman
13 minutes ago
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Pretty sure these can't be bought by municipalities. Would make more sense to operate them though.
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asdff
6 minutes ago
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Why do we need to follow a car in a high speed pursuit and force it to go 100mph on uncontrolled streets is the better question
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monkaiju
27 minutes ago
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Idk, having a bunch of government surveillance drones doesn't really sound great... Maybe we just don't need this level of surveillance at all?
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autoexec
22 minutes ago
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It's absolutely worth looking at the ROI on these flights and weighing that against the intrusion on our privacy/freedom. No doubt they'll always need drones and helicopters but I'd be surprised if there was any real need for them to be in the air that often. I think that's a question that should be asked everywhere but the LAPD in particular are terrible enough that it makes this a great place to start.
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DiscourseFan
23 minutes ago
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Couldn’t someone take out the drones pretty easily?
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autoexec
12 minutes ago
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That depends on the drone. There are drones/UAVs that fly so high in the air you can't even see them seeing you from the ground. Even low flying drones would be very hard to hit from a car involved in a high speed chase, and it's not as if people can't shoot at helicopters which are both larger/easier targets and much more dangerous if brought down.
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bronco21016
34 minutes ago
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Ad in the bottom left covers the UI when expanding the menu out.

I'm sure it depends on screen resolution etc but I'd love to be able to click links to the data sources.

Overall an interesting idea. I'd love to know the data source for the cost of the operation of the aircraft. Would be really interesting to connect a database of all aircraft types then present the ability to watch the cost of like "all American Airlines flights currently flying" or "all US military aircraft".

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polalavik
25 minutes ago
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sorry probably got covered by the ad - data source is the hourly from the city controller https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters which says $2,916 per flight hour
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VerifiedReports
15 minutes ago
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Looks like there's supposed to be a map, but it only loads the very top edge... occasionally redrawn.

Hm, now on reload it shows a whole map... but if you zoom in it resets it and zooms out by itself at intervals.

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andy99
14 minutes ago
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Seconded, I thought it was just me
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rimbo789
32 minutes ago
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This is the kind of government waste that needs to be highlighted. Police forces consume a massively disproportionate amount of resources from our cities.
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LeoPanthera
24 minutes ago
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This doesn't seem to work properly in Mac Safari. The map is blank except in a thin stripe at the top.
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dsamarin
29 minutes ago
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Would using drones nowadays end up being much less expensive but with all the same necessary capabilities for police work?
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analog31
24 minutes ago
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What are the necessary capabilities? My city has no helicopters or drones. There's a medical chopper that flies over my house regularly, but it has an obvious purpose.
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TOMDM
22 minutes ago
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Being able to follow a car involved in a hit and run and intercept them when they stop without restoring to what could be a dangerous police chase.

Aerial surveillance has it's place.

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autoexec
16 minutes ago
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> Aerial surveillance has it's place.

It does, but I would be very surprised if the LAPD knew its place or cared to keep it there to prevent it from wandering into places that are totally unnecessary and expensive invasions of our privacy.

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citizenpaul
16 minutes ago
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Roughly a dollar a second which if you are a theater kid you know is about $31,536,000 mil a year.

Honestly not that bad considering it provides a real service. I mean how much does the city spend on lawsuits against corrupt cops and other employees. According to the budget something like $300 MILLION on lawsuit payouts last year alone.

Who gives a $hit about the helicopters. Build an app that tracks the employees causing these lawsuits that are still keeping their jobs.

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ninininino
14 minutes ago
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This is neat but also has serious implications for criminal enablement.
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nonameiguess
18 minutes ago
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My first question was how much of this is labor, and from the chart provided at the bottom of the helpful link provided elsewhere (https://controller.lacity.gov/landings/lapd-helicopters), it appears to be around 60%.

I was wondering because I remember the last time I lived in Los Angeles in 2009 I went to a Lakers championship parade and talked to one of the cops assigned to crowd control, and asked about it when a helicopter flew overhead. She told me it's a great job a lot of them try to get because even 20 years ago they were starting out at something like $215,000 a year and were not expected to have any flight experience. The city just trained up regular patrol officers and tripled their pay.

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