After 15 years, I use Outlook as my build pipeline
72 points
3 days ago
| 17 comments
| iwriteaboutcode.blogspot.com
| HN
frankfrank13
27 minutes ago
[-]
> In industrial scale software development, gaining access you are fully entitled to can sometimes take weeks.

4 years in consulting. I've spent the first WEEKS of a project twiddling my thumbs waiting for a laptop, just to spend more weeks waiting on access to source code, tooling, etc.

My friends on the strategy side could start and finish entire projects in that time.

reply
easterncalculus
1 hour ago
[-]
I don't know if Telegram, Slack, Discord, GitHub Actions, GitLab CI, Jenkins, or Kubernetes will be around (or without massive breaking changes) in 20 years, but email absolutely will be.
reply
throw-the-towel
1 hour ago
[-]
TIL that Jenkins was only released in 2011. Feels like it's been around since forever.
reply
wiether
1 hour ago
[-]
If you're like me, in your mind Hudson and Jenkins are the same thing, so maybe you started using "Jenkins" before 2011 when the renaming happened!
reply
TechSquidTV
54 minutes ago
[-]
2011 was a huge year for tech/devops. I feel like so much of what we do now started right then for some reason.
reply
hshdhdhj4444
1 hour ago
[-]
I think that might be because it was called Hudson before that I believe.

Unless that was a different project altogether?

reply
usrusr
46 minutes ago
[-]
Same project, rebranded around Oracle. Basically MySQL/MariaDB without the alliteration.
reply
philo_sophia
1 hour ago
[-]
>When you leave software developers alone for too long, they start developing software

I've gotten so bored at work lately I've been coding for fun again

reply
rAum
1 hour ago
[-]
Long ago, I used to work at some bank, where SVN branch merging was always super painful and instead of solving people problem, there was holy, e-mail based system running on our common dev machines.

After recieving properly formatted email, script was executed to apply git merge between svn branches. In case of merge issues, the email was sent back with feedback. If everything was okay, a proper sign-off blessing by one of the technopriests as late check was applied and merge concluded.

reply
corysama
2 hours ago
[-]
I knew a guy who would brag that he used Outlook as his build system 20 years ago. Builds would take 9 to 24 months depending on the complexity of the project. But, as the CTO of a mid-sized software company, it worked for him.
reply
ebiester
1 hour ago
[-]
CTOs are the original vibe coders.
reply
ramon156
1 hour ago
[-]
> Builds would take 9 to 24 months depending on the complexity of the project.

I might be stupid, are you saying a build would take 9 to 24 months to finish?

reply
gdulli
50 minutes ago
[-]
They're saying he used Outlook to assign a project to a team.
reply
uliqquel
36 minutes ago
[-]
Maybe the build system was him sending the email to some factory that would encode it into the silicon of a chip and ship the chip back to him.
reply
wiether
56 minutes ago
[-]
Yeah, it confused me also

Either its the wrong unit (minutes?) or the wrong definition of "build"?

reply
jbverschoor
1 hour ago
[-]
/Mail/Messaging in SMTP, and you have what it is: A message broker and queue. It has durability, retries, everything
reply
bux93
28 minutes ago
[-]
SMTP is even a transport for SOAP

It was really fun using filters in Pegasus Mail (no SOAP) to automate mailing lists, PGP key signing with e-mail validation etc.

reply
TechSquidTV
54 minutes ago
[-]
I can not believe blogspot is still alive. I just went there and it auto-signed me in via my Google account to "Blogger" where there are some posts from Google's blogspot. The last post was in 2020 https://blogger.googleblog.com/
reply
afavour
2 hours ago
[-]
Memories of waiting for months to get access to a MS SQL database and ending up putting an Access database on a network share for multiple user access instead. A horrible, horrible hack solution. But it worked!
reply
wswope
1 hour ago
[-]
I volunteered at an archaeology lab run by the state govt a few months ago.

Knowing I was a data engineer, one of the archaeologists asked me to take a look at the cataloging system he’d cobbled together on his own: a shared-drive Access database with a full-featured CRUD interface that the whole office had been using for years.

I was able to clean up one stray bug he had, and confirm his suspicion that one particular action was running slow because it had to touch multiple files by necessity (he’d rolled his own sharding) — but generally speaking, it was a work of art more effective than anything I could’ve ever come up with. Sometimes the “dirty hacks” are the best solutions.

reply
skydhash
1 hour ago
[-]
The avoidance of dirty hacks are not because they don’t work. They do and can be pretty X-effective when you’re short on X. But the end result is that when you need to switch away from the hacks, then the interest paid on X can be enormous. If X includes time, it may never be repaid.
reply
WorldMaker
21 minutes ago
[-]
Directly related to which is the tech debt that accumulates just by using Access files in a shared folder. Access wasn't intended to work that way. It is documented in many places in Access' manuals to never do that. But it works and most versions of Access don't warn you when they detect you are using a shared folder, so most Access users don't question it.

But I have seen the maintenance burden first hand of solving weird Access lock file problems (if I never have to manually find and delete an .LDB file again, that would be great) and silent corruption issues and more. I've seen the workarounds of auto-backups of the shared folder and then auto-restores of those backups when silly things happen like the .MDB file is not the expected file size.

There's a special "joy" in needing to know the many under-the-hood versions of Access files and seeing apps that consume and/or produce more than one version at a time. That's just to maintain existing "apps", trying to migrate that data to modern databases for new apps is its own "joy" as well.

reply
Jean-Papoulos
1 hour ago
[-]
>Shoddy stuff that has no chance of making its way into production is permissible

That's cute.

reply
Proofread0592
2 hours ago
[-]
As a dev currently working at a company where getting an access request fulfilled can sometimes take weeks, I feel this author's pain.

But it seems like an enormous security hole, even with a codeword "password". The author didn't mention it, but I hope they're using whatever version of their company's E2E email encryption is for these messages.

reply
yabones
2 hours ago
[-]
Yeah, this is textbook "shadow IT" that could easily lead to something going seriously wrong. It's a fun example, but not something to aspire to.

Ultimately the problem is that in a lot of big corps, IT is basically unaccountable for setting things up wrong. Their only KPI is tickets closed, not the quality or success rate of their fixes.

reply
thewebguyd
3 minutes ago
[-]
I've always felt that if business types can get over their fetish for trying to measure absolutely everything, we wouldn't have problems like these that stem from poorly thought out KPIs.

They default to tickets closed, uptime, SLA adherence as KPIs because you can't effectively measure "is it set up correctly?" and because the business absolutely must measure everything, they come up with bullshit KPIs so they can have a pretty dashboard and pretend like they're actually managing.

Glad I'm no longer in huge corps, but still an IT manager. Shadow IT is a direct symptom of IT not providing the right tools or having poor processes. But responsibility still lies higher up in the chain. If we weren't forced to quantify all activity, these issues wouldn't exist.

reply
1970-01-01
1 hour ago
[-]
Good. The next step is turning that into an OS. From there, you should be able to take it further and fully support virtualization.
reply
inetknght
58 minutes ago
[-]
...but why?
reply
charles_f
50 minutes ago
[-]
To run Doom, what else?
reply
homeonthemtn
1 hour ago
[-]
Realest post I've read in a long time

Hacky is as hacky does.

reply
FuriouslyAdrift
1 hour ago
[-]
You can use git as a backend for an MTA and come full circle...
reply
adastra22
1 hour ago
[-]
This is horrifying.
reply
arein3
1 hour ago
[-]
Might need to implement this at current project but with Teams
reply
fHr
2 hours ago
[-]
that guy is a fuckin legend
reply
Traubenfuchs
2 hours ago
[-]
If your build pipeline is anything more than a deploy.sh file containing

  docker build -t your-docker-registry/xxx:latest .

  docker push your-docker-registry/xxx:latest

  kubectl rollout restart deployment xxx-deployment
you are a hack, a fraud, an overengineer and someone who should NOT work as software or devops engineer.
reply
dxdm
2 hours ago
[-]
Mom, didn't we talk about not posting to hacker news when you're like this?
reply
ptdorf
18 minutes ago
[-]
People don't get sarcarm :/

Totally unrelated, if you need to suffix a k8s deployment with "-deployment" you are a hack, a fraud, an overengineer and someone who should NOT work as software or devops engineer.

reply
skinner927
2 hours ago
[-]
Thankfully k8s is not overengineered or you’d have pie on your face.
reply
pprotas
2 hours ago
[-]
If your build pipeline is anything more than a monkey scratching bits into a spinning disk using a needle, you are a fraud.
reply
Atotalnoob
1 hour ago
[-]
There are so many issues with what you have here… where to start…

You aren’t running tests, unless you put them in the dockerfile which is a bad idea…

You aren’t running security scans. how do you deploy manifest changes? Using Latest as a tag has so many issues.

This is a trivial and niave pipeline I would expect from a junior or intern.

Build pipelines are becoming more complicated because software is more complex. You can still promote ownership of the full pipeline while giving developers control.

Don’t shy away from it, understand it, embrace it. It’s just going to continue getting more complex

reply
probably_wrong
2 hours ago
[-]
No plan survives contact with the enemy.

Sure, "docker push" is all fine and well until "after two weeks, [your] coworker still does not have access to the server endpoint that he and [you] would need". And then what? Do you quit your job for fear that someone calls you a hack?

reply
afavour
2 hours ago
[-]
Wait, my docker registry has no authorization? Uh oh
reply
Traubenfuchs
39 minutes ago
[-]
The executing system provides an authenticated kubectl.
reply
slackfan
1 hour ago
[-]
If your build pipeline is anything more than a deploy.sh file containing

go build binary

scp binary root@server:/deploymentlocation

you are a hack, a fraud, an overengineer and someone who should NOT work as software or devops engineer.

reply
Traubenfuchs
41 minutes ago
[-]
2 commands -that‘s 33% better than my solution!
reply
formerly_proven
54 minutes ago
[-]
Look what “real” devops engineers have demanded respect for. They have played us for absolute fools!
reply
micahdeath
1 hour ago
[-]
I like [x]copy deployments personally, then you have 1 command =)
reply
Traubenfuchs
43 minutes ago
[-]
I bow!

We had that at my first job where I deployed .war to a remote production tomcat directly from eclipse with one tool button click.

Zero lines of code even, depending on definition.

reply
dijit
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes, all development is just backend web development and CRUD apps.

If you're doing anything else, are you really an engineer?

bwahaha.

reply
rmonvfer
2 hours ago
[-]
Uses kubernetes, blames others for over engineering. Are we living in a parody? Oh wait…
reply
worthless-trash
1 hour ago
[-]
For a moment there I thought this was the parody llm HN site.
reply
fHr
2 hours ago
[-]
yeah sure....
reply