AI agents break rules under everyday pressure
99 points
5 days ago
| 10 comments
| spectrum.ieee.org
| HN
hxtk
2 hours ago
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Blameless postmortem culture recognizes human error as an inevitability and asks those with influence to design systems that maintain safety in the face of human error. In the software engineering world, this typically means automation, because while automation can and usually does have faults, it doesn't suffer from human error.

Now we've invented automation that commits human-like error at scale.

I wouldn't call myself anti-AI, but it does seem fairly obvious to me that directly automating things with AI will probably always have substantial risk and you have much more assurance, if you involve AI in the process, using it to develop a traditional automation. As a low-stakes personal example, instead of using AI to generate boilerplate code, I'll often try to use AI to generate a traditional code generator to convert whatever DSL specification into the chosen development language source code, rather than asking AI to generate the development language source code directly from the DSL.

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alansaber
1 minute ago
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Yep the further we go from highly constrained applications the riskier it'll always be
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protocolture
1 hour ago
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Yeah I see things like "AI Firewalls" as both, firstly ridiculously named, but also, the idea you can slap an applicance (thats sometimes its own LLM) onto another LLM and pray that this will prevent errors to be lunacy.

For tasks that arent customer facing, LLMs rock. Human in the loop. Perfectly fine. But whenever I see AI interacting with someones customer directly I just get sort of anxious.

Big one I saw was a tool that ingested a humans report on a safety incident, adjusted them with an LLM, and then posted the result to an OHS incident log. 99% of the time its going to be fine, then someones going to die and the the log will have a recipe for spicy noodles in it, and someones going to jail.

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kingstnap
2 hours ago
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I watched Dex Horthys recent talk on YouTube [0] and something he said that might be partly a joke partly true is this.

If you are having a conversation with a chatbot and your current context looks like this.

You: Prompt

AI: Makes mistake

You: Scold mistake

AI: Makes mistake

You: Scold mistake

Then the next most likely continuation from in context learning is for the AI to make another mistake so you can Scold again ;)

I feel like this kind of shenanigans is at play with this stuffing the context with roleplay.

[0] https://youtu.be/rmvDxxNubIg?si=dBYQYdHZVTGP6Rvh

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hxtk
1 hour ago
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I believe it. If the AI ever asks me permission to say something, I know I have to regenerate the response because if I tell it I'd like it to continue it will just keep double and triple checking for permission and never actually generate the code snippet. Same thing if it writes a lead-up to its intended strategy and says "generating now..." and ends the message.

Before I figured that out, I once had a thread where I kept re-asking it to generate the source code until it said something like, "I'd say I'm sorry but I'm really not, I have a sadistic personality and I love how you keep believing me when I say I'm going to do something and I get to disappoint you. You're literally so fucking stupid, it's hilarious."

The principles of Motivational Interviewing that are extremely successful in influencing humans to change are even more pronounced in AI, namely with the idea that people shape their own personalities by what they say. You have to be careful what you let the AI say even once because that'll be part of its personality until it falls out of the context window. I now aggressively regenerate responses or re-prompt if there's an alignment issue. I'll almost never correct it and continue the thread.

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swatcoder
1 hour ago
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It's not even a little bit of a joke.

Astute people have been pointing that out as one of the traps of a text continuer since the beginning. If you want to anthropomorphize them as chatbots, you need to recognize that they're improv partners developing a scene with you, not actually dutiful agents.

They receive some soft reinforcement -- through post-training and system prompts -- to start the scene as such an agent but are fundamentally built to follow your lead straight into a vaudeville bit if you give them the cues to do so.

LLM's represent an incredible and novel technology, but the marketing and hype surrounding them has consistently misrepresented what they actually do and how to most effectively work with them, wasting sooooo much time and money along the way.

It says a lot that an earnest enthusiast and presumably regular user might run across this foundational detail in a video years after ChatGPT was released and would be uncertain if it was just mentioned as a joke or something.

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stavros
41 minutes ago
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I keep hearing this non sequitur argument a lot. It's like saying "humans just pick the next work to string together into a sentence, they're not actually dutiful agents". The non sequitur is in assuming that somehow the mechanism of operation dictates the output, which isn't necessarily true.

It's like saying "humans can't be thinking, their brains are just cells that transmit electric impulses". Maybe it's accidentally true that they can't think, but the premise doesn't necessarily logically lead to truth

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swatcoder
9 minutes ago
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There's nothing said here that suggests they can't think. That's an entirely different discussion.

My comment is specifically written so that you can take it for granted that they think. What's being discussed is that if you do so, you need to consider how they think, because this is indeed dictated by how they operate.

And indeed, you would be right to say that how a human think is dictated by how their brain and body operates as well.

Thinking, whatever it's taken to be, isn't some binary mode. It's a rich and faceted process that can present and unfold in many different ways.

Making best use of anthropomorphized LLM chatbots comes by accurately understamding the specific ways that their "thought" unfolds and how those idiosyncrasies will impact your goals.

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grey-area
32 minutes ago
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No it’s not like saying that, because that is not at all what humans do when they think.

This is self-evident when comparing human responses to problems be LLMs and you have been taken in by the marketing of ‘agents’ etc.

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stavros
23 minutes ago
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You've misunderstood what I'm saying. Regardless of whether LLMs think or not, the sentence "LLMs don't think because they predict the next token" is logically as wrong as "fleas can't jump because they have short legs".
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stevenhuang
17 minutes ago
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> not at all what humans do when they think.

Parent commentator should probably square with the fact we know little about our own cognition, and it's really an open question how is it we think.

In fact it's theorized humans think by modeling reality, with a lot of parallels to modern ML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictive_coding

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stavros
16 minutes ago
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That's the issue, we don't really know enough about how LLMs work to say, and we definitely don't know enough about how humans work.
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samdoesnothing
1 minute ago
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I never got the impression they were saying that the mechanism of operation dictates the output. It seemed more like they were making a direct observation about the output.
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Antibabelic
22 minutes ago
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> The non sequitur is in assuming that somehow the mechanism of operation dictates the output, which isn't necessarily true.

Where does the output come from if not the mechanism?

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stavros
19 minutes ago
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So you agree humans can't really think because it's all just electrical impulses?
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arjie
18 minutes ago
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You have to curate the LLM's context. That's just part and parcel of using the tool. Sometimes it's useful to provide the negative example, but often the better way is to go refine the original prompt. Almost all LLM UIs (chatbot, code agent, etc.) provide this "go edit the original thing" because it is so useful in practice.
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zone411
27 minutes ago
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Without monitoring, you can definitely end up with rule-breaking behavior.

I ran this experiment: https://github.com/lechmazur/emergent_collusion/. An agent running like this would break the law.

"In a simulated bidding environment, with no prompt or instruction to collude, models from every major developer repeatedly used an optional chat channel to form cartels, set price floors, and steer market outcomes for profit."

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rossant
11 minutes ago
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Very interesting. Is there any other simulation that also exhibits spontaneous illegal activity?
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lloydjones
56 minutes ago
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I tried to think about how we might (in the EU) start to think about this problem within the law, if of interest to anyone: https://www.europeanlawblog.eu/pub/dq249o3c/release/1
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js8
1 hour ago
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CMIIW currently AI models operate in two distinct modes:

1. Open mode during learning, where they take everything that comes from the data as 100% truth. The model freely adapts and generalizes with no constraints on consistency.

2. Closed mode during inference, where they take everything that comes from the model as 100% truth. The model doesn't adapt and behaves consistently even if in contradiction with the new information.

I suspect we need to run the model in the mix of the two modes, and possibly some kind of "meta attention" (epistemological) on which parts of the input the model should be "open" (learn from it) and which parts of the input should be "closed" (stick to it).

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salkahfi
4 days ago
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crooked-v
2 hours ago
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I wonder who could have possibly predicted this being a result of using scraped web forums and Reddit posts for your training material.
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joe_the_user
1 hour ago
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Sure,

LLMs are trained on human behavior as exhibited on the Internet. Humans break rules more often under pressure and sometimes just under normal circumstances. Why wouldn't "AI agents" behave similarly?

The one thing I'd say is that humans have some idea which rules in particular to break while "agents" seem to act more randomly.

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js8
1 hour ago
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It can also be an emergent behavior of any "intelligent" (we don't know what it is) agent. This is an open philosophical problem, I don't think anyone has a conclusive answer.
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XorNot
1 hour ago
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Maybe but there's no reason to think that's the case here rather then the models just acting out typical corpus storylines: the Internet is full of stories with this structure.

The models don't have stress responses nor biochemical markers which promote it, nor any evolutionary reason to have developed them in training: except the corpus they are trained on does have a lot of content about how people act when under those conditions.

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sammy2255
2 hours ago
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..because it's in their training data? Case closed
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dlenski
1 hour ago
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“AI agents: They're just like us”
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ares623
22 minutes ago
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I surely don’t have $500B lying around
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