EU Council Approves New "Chat Control" Mandate Pushing Mass Surveillance
186 points
1 hour ago
| 14 comments
| reclaimthenet.org
| HN
piker
1 hour ago
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Even living nearby in the UK it blows my mind how quickly the EU proposes, kills and then revives and passes controversial legislation in such a short timeframe.
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SiempreViernes
44 minutes ago
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Well, the impression of speed is mainly in the head of the headline writers.

What has actually happened is that after about three years of faffing about the Council finally decided on it negotiation position begore the Coreper 2 meeting last week, thought it seems they ran put of time at actual the meeting and had to have the formal approval this week.

The Council is only one of three parties that draft new laws, so now there's are still several rounds of negotiations left.

Nothing substantial has happened to the three texts since last week, it's just that "chat control is back" drives traffic and "Council preparatory body formally approves draft position that got consensus previously but didn't formally get passed because people were fighting over Ukraine stuff for too long" doesn't.

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arlort
47 minutes ago
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Because it doesn't, people are just embarrassingly ignorant of how the EU legislative process works so when a vote to give first approval to a text is cancelled before it takes place journalists and reddit all over pull out the mission accomplished banners and when a negotiating position is approved everyone has a surprised pikachu face

The "proposal" was made something like 3 years ago, the killing never happened and the passing, if it passes, will happen in at least one year from now because this will definitely take a long time to get through parliament and even longer to get through the trilogue.

The process is many things but quick it is not

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zelphirkalt
22 minutes ago
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This is of course a process, that does not lend itself to be democratic, because it is way longer than most people's attention span. People don't manage to remember things that happened in politics 4 years ago in their own country. Now they are required to follow up on dozens of shitty proposals, all probably illegal in their own country, and those don't even happen in their own country? That divides the number of people, who even start looking into this stuff by a factor of 1000 or so.
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mejutoco
10 minutes ago
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Is there a website that tracks these? That would be a nice divulgation process.
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andrepd
13 minutes ago
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> Because it doesn't, people are just embarrassingly ignorant of how the EU legislative process works

Hmm, now whose fault is it that the EU institutions are so complicated and opaque? The citizens? The journalists? Or maybe...?

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arlort
9 minutes ago
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They're not complicated for anyone with above room temperature IQ. And they're almost identical to how it works in the member countries anyway

And in a democracy if you don't know how your own laws are made the fault is always yours as a voter

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elenchev
2 minutes ago
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Why do people get so defensive about obviously flawed processes? This reply reads like a 4chan comment written by a frustrated teenager
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Simulacra
1 hour ago
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That could be a result of the Parliamentary style system. With multiple parties - each sharing a part of the government - proposals and alliances can shift rapidly. It all depends on how big the pie becomes for each to get a slice
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hexbin010
18 minutes ago
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Power sharing is very rare in the UK. What is more common is a party with a large majority with lots of infighting between factions of their party
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paganel
37 minutes ago
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Because that's what autocracies in anything but name usually do. Who's going to stop them?
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maybewhenthesun
24 minutes ago
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The EU is more of a bureaucracy than a real autocracy. Lots of members with veto powers and the like.

There is a lot wrong with the EU (the system). Opaque power structures, backroom deals, corruption. But I wouldn't call it an autocracy.

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paganel
7 minutes ago
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> Lots of members with veto powers and the like.

Similar to the Political Bureau in former communist countries, but still an autocracy.

> But I wouldn't call it an autocracy.

It has most certainly started to walk and quack a lot like an autocratic duck, it wasn't the case 10 to 15 years ago, or not as visible, to say the least, but the pandemic and this recent war in Ukraine have changed that.

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iLoveOncall
1 hour ago
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You are a fool if you think the UK is better. I've moved from the EU to the UK and it is worse in every way when it comes to authoritarian measures.

I'm not sure how you can have already forgotten the fact that we have to upload or face or ID to access websites.

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bloqs
18 minutes ago
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I think you misunderstood his post. It's generally un-British to suggest the UK is better in any regard whatsoever. I've no doubt he thinks the UK is just as bad if not worse but in different ways.
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bluescrn
9 minutes ago
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The UK is perhaps less competent at it's authoritarianism
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hsbauauvhabzb
14 minutes ago
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I’m not sure how you got there unless you were ready for an argument already.
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poszlem
1 hour ago
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I think he meant that as "I live in the UK where this is already bad, yet the EU still ended up worse.".
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green7ea
14 minutes ago
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This is how I also read it.
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cbeach
56 minutes ago
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In the UK we've had an authoritarian Conservative government for 14 years, followed by an even more authoritarian Labour government, which we'll have until 2029.

In 2029 it's likely we'll have a more libertarian government:

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/...

Reform will repeal some of the awful legislation that's been passed over the last few years (e.g. Online Safety Act). They've been loud critics of government overreach.

https://www.ft.com/content/886ee83a-02ab-48b6-b557-857a38f30...

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forgotoldacc
29 minutes ago
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America also has a party that always runs on the idea of small government and restoring rights to the people. Every time they get power, they do the exact opposite.
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jacquesm
14 minutes ago
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It is a massive assumption that reform will win the elections.
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jbstack
52 minutes ago
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"a more libertarian government"

As long as you are white British. If you're anything else you're probably going to be worse off under Farage.

It's a shame that if you want to vote for someone with different policies to the two main parties, you have to accept that you are also voting for an outspoken racist. Then again, if he wasn't, he probably wouldn't be popular enough to win.

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baiac
24 minutes ago
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This is because politicians who fill the country with immigrants do so because they don't care in the slightest about the population and it shows in all facets of governance.
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exasperaited
14 minutes ago
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Net migration in the UK is falling, and fast. It grew under a party that is ideologically closer to Reform than the government currently in power.
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Ylpertnodi
37 minutes ago
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> Reform will repeal some of the awful legislation that's been passed over the last few years (e.g. Online Safety Act). They've been loud critics of government overreach.

A lot of politicians change when they get in power.

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exasperaited
15 minutes ago
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> In 2029 it's likely we'll have a more libertarian government

Haha you're so funny.

If Reform get from, what is it right now, five -- or four, or six, depending on how the wind blows — MPs to 326 MPs, which is enough to secure the majority they think they are getting, then libertarian is not what that government will be.

It will be populist, white and significantly authoritarian, because pure tabloid authoritarian thuggery is the only possible strategy that could cause a swing larger than any in history, against two parties (labour and liberal democrat) who currently hold 472 seats and represent a sort of centrist blob between them.

And this is to say nothing of the challenge they will face finding 326 non-crazy, credible candidates for 326 very different parliamentary elections. And to say nothing of the foreign influence scandal that currently engulfs senior Reform figures or the catastrophic issues already affecting Reform councils like Kent. Do you think Reform could succeed without Farage? And do you think Farage's reputation is going to somehow be improved by the Nathan Gill situation?

I accept they will be the largest minority. But the parliamentary maths to get to an outright majority is really extreme; the system does not support such things easily.

Maybe they will get to largest minority and then campaign for PR/AV/STV, and maybe finally people will understand something like it is needed. But Farage will be a lot older in that election.

(It surprises me to see people who are so keen to believe that a council election wave is necessarily predictive of a national election wave because, what, somehow everything is different now? Why is it different?)

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tasoeur
2 minutes ago
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At this point, it’s clear these sort of measures will go through, if not now but in some foreseeable future. What would be our best bet moving forward? Moving to signal/telegram?
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margorczynski
54 minutes ago
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How they're packaging it now? Terrorism? Child porn? Russian agents?

Either way politicians prefer to push unpopular stuff like this via the EU because the responsibility gets muddied - "we didn't want it, the EU regulation requires us to spy on you!".

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SiempreViernes
41 minutes ago
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It's important to know that the "new" in the title is entirely made up, it's the same draft as last week when they just ran out of time at the meeting, probably because they were fighting about Ukraine stuff.
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wartywhoa23
22 minutes ago
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They've optimized the packaging away. What's left of it now is a recycled paper tag that reads "because", and then if you scrutinize it further, there is poorly printed, barely readable "we're fascists".
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permo-w
1 hour ago
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why are specifically the Danish so obsessed with pushing this through? it always seems to come back to them
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epolanski
45 minutes ago
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Lobbying.

EU delegates and council members have to report their meetings with lobbyists.

Palantir and Thorn lobbyists (just the most famous ones, but you can add another few dozens security and data companies) are recorded meeting many times with countless of them, including Ursula von der Leyen.

It's really as simple as that, sales pitches convincing them of all the benefits of having more intelligence "to catch criminals (wink)".

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sph
19 minutes ago
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> Palantir and Thorn lobbyists

So, US interests? Which means the NSA?

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epolanski
45 seconds ago
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You may connect the dots yourself, but it goes beyond them, it's an entire sector.
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Macha
58 minutes ago
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Partly it's because the Danish have the rotating EU presidency at the moment so they have the job of pushing things forward (which also means receiving the most lobbying). In the previous wave earlier in the year, it was the Polish for the same reason.

Partly it's they don't have the same pro-privacy culture that say Germany and many of the eastern european countries have.

People also think the current Danish PM was also offended by a former prominent Danish politician and cabinet minister who was arrested for CSAM possession.

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permo-w
36 minutes ago
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I wonder how aware they are of the damage to the EU's reputation that they're continually creating by repeatedly bringing this back

I think this theme of the EU, this lack of taboo against continually bringing unwanted laws until they pass by fatigue, it may well be the death of the institution as a whole. every time they try, every time people hear about it, more and more think worse of the EU, and unlike most western governments, the existence and function of the EU is actually severely vulnerable to what people think of it. no other major government takes as much reputational damage from laws that don't even pass, and the existence of no other major government is as vulnerable to reputational damage as the EU is right now. all it takes is another 1 or 2 major exits and the whole thing will slowly collapse, which is insanely sad

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Macha
32 minutes ago
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The UK government laundering unpopular regulations through the EU and then blaming the EU for them even when the UK had proposed and often championed then was definitely a factor in Brexit passing.

Somewhat relevantly, the UK already has their own version of this legislation in the Online Safety Act which lead to a bunch of small-medium UK community sites closing and the likes of Imgur, pixiv and 4chan blocking the UK.

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liminvorous
15 minutes ago
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I believe 4chan is taking ofcom to court for trying to restrict their first amendment rights rather than blocking the UK, at least I'm still able to access it without a vpn.
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VWWHFSfQ
2 minutes ago
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> restrict their first amendment rights

how is this relevant in the UK

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ggm
4 minutes ago
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I was told the proposal the Danes carried forward actually had its roots from Sweden.
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arlort
56 minutes ago
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The council of the EU operates on a rotating chair model (which gets called Presidency, sometimes Presidency of the EU)

It's currently held by Denmark so it's the Danish delegation that's mostly doing the brokering etc for this semester

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sillyfluke
55 minutes ago
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I guess it never hurts to try and find alternate ways of placating the US in order to make them get over their Greenland obession.
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concinds
52 minutes ago
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The US pressured the UK to withdrawn encryption backdoors.
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pjmlp
3 minutes ago
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Unfortunely it was to be expected, the mighty ones would not rest until they managed to make it happen.
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AndrewSwift
1 hour ago
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It would be nice to have details:

It rewards or penalizes online services depending on whether they agree to carry out “voluntary” scanning, effectively making intrusive monitoring a business expectation rather than a legal requirement.

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jeroenhd
44 minutes ago
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This is the same way the law in many EU countries mandates ISPs to store communication logs for every internet subscriber for months or longer.

The legal mandate was shot down by the EU courts, but every country then figured out their own loophole and as a result data retention is effectively mandatory but not by clear and public law.

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snvzz
58 minutes ago
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Business, eh. Maybe it's time to go open source and fully distributed peer-to-peer. Something like Tox[0] or SimpleX[1].

The (actual) solution should be to fix legislation to adequate protect privacy, because they'll attack this next.

But meantime, a technical solution is better than nothing.

0. https://tox.chat/

1. https://simplex.chat/

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IlikeKitties
36 minutes ago
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> Hi Mom, please install this peer to peer dark net chat to talk to me in the future, thanks Oh honey, why don't we just use iMessage instead. Thx bye.
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raverbashing
55 minutes ago
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Exactly this

But people like to sensationalize stuff

This is less worse than the original proposal

Oh and honestly game chat rooms should not be private.

(of course personal 1:1 messages should)

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jeroenhd
37 minutes ago
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This achieves every goal the original proposal achieved, except the wording is sneakier.

Services are obligated to do risk analysis and take appropriate safety precautions against high risk actions. High risk actions include "anonymous accounts", "uploading media", and of course "encrypted messages".

The moment they catch the next random pedo, every messenger app on their phone will be tasked with explaining why they didn't do enough to stop the pedo. They'd better get their business together next time, because otherwise they might be held liable!

There's no law that says you have to hand over arbitrary data to the police without a warrant but when Telegrams shady owner landed in france, he was locked up until his company pledged to "work together with police better".

Don't be fooled by pretty words, none of this optional stuff is optional for any messenger the government doesn't already have the ability to read along with.

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demarq
18 minutes ago
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> of course personal 1:1 messages should

And what my undersensationalized friend do you understand by the word chat?

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glemmaPaul
6 minutes ago
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And all this was done in a highly democratic manner, thanks EU!
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mrtksn
1 hour ago
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dupedupedupe
40 minutes ago
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Thank you ChrisArchitect. That story was mysteriously (downranked/downmodded/deranked/downweighted) from the front page.

Perhaps it met the criteria for a Major Ongoing Topic (MOT) or a MegaMOT, or the "flamewar detector" kicked in, or just that it wasn't convenient to discuss, but we'll never know since the precise moderation action applied to individual stories is opaque.

https://hnrankings.info/46062777/

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christkv
45 minutes ago
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Note how they exclude themselves. No privacy for the you only for them. We will all become lawbreakers in the near future as the voluntary aspect is enforced.
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lifestyleguru
48 minutes ago
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Suddenly it has become normal to scan face in 3D, nonchalantly demand copy of ID and passport, freeze people's money and demand full financial statement arbitrarily. Not only there is no push back but things are becoming more and more restrictive.

Authorities and banks avalanche everyone within their reach over all available communication channels with "warnings" about scams and frauds.

What direction are they aiming with this total control?

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balamatom
34 minutes ago
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Considering that in concert with all of the above a device has been developed that emulates human speech more convincingly than most humans, I guess it's pretty obvious
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pixelpoet
1 hour ago
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Why are all politicians so shit? Launch these no-good leeches into the sun.

Nobody wants this, including they themselves, which is why they specifically exempt themselves from it.

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Havoc
1 minute ago
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Because nobody sane & level headed wants to participate in the circus that is politics
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jeroenhd
29 minutes ago
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Don't forget the lobbying. Behind every authoritarian move are a group of companies lobbying for these changes. When you work for law and order, there are only so many customers you can sign, so signing new services is the most reliable way to accomplish growth.

Whoever wins the bid for the (visually hashed) child porn database Whatsapp uses is bound to receive billions of API calls the month the contract goes live. They won't make whatsapp pay for that directly, of course, but I'm sure they'll be "covering operating costs" with government grants to "protect" the public. They get to be rich claiming everyone is a paedophile yet to be caught while pronouncing themselves the foremost fighters against child abuse.

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latexr
1 hour ago
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Clearly it’s not all of them. Some countries voted against, and even the ones voting in favour had a few people against.

The question is more why do the shit politicians rise to the top. Outside forces (rich people and companies) have too much power and can exert too much influence.

In this case I’m particularly curious about the Danes. They insisted on this more than any other previous attempt. They are forever soiled as fighting against the will of the people.

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lambdaone
55 minutes ago
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It's baffling from our perspective, but perhaps not so much if you try to look at it the mindset of its proponents.

It's been sold as "for the children". A very substantial proportion of the population are natural authoritarians, and this is red meat for them. Never mind that "the children" that they profess to be protecting are going to grow up living in an increasingly authoritarian surveillance state, this is what authoritarians want for our future, and they see it as not only morally good, but any opposition to it as indefensible.

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tgv
51 minutes ago
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> The question is more why do the shit politicians rise to the top.

Dumb and greedy voters, traditional and social media, and electoral interference are known reasons. But it's also a matter of compromise: you vote for a party because you agree with a bunch of their points, but almost certainly not all. Topics like privacy are ignored by the general public, so politicians are hardly held accountable for them.

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jeroenhd
34 minutes ago
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Some countries have more faith in their institutions than others. Countries with good and reliable institutions, comparatively at least, are easier to convince this won't be abused and is for the greater good. I'm not surprised the Danes have found a faction to support this bullshit.
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setnone
6 minutes ago
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I wonder if being a certain type of politician could be considered a mental health condition
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roenxi
58 minutes ago
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Well obviously they want it, they voted for it. They probably see the situation in terms of something like class war. There are a bunch of people they don't like in society and they want to identify and marginalise them.

As for why politicians turn out this way, they're just pretty ordinary people (often quite impressive people actually, relative to the norm). Most people don't get an opportunity to show off how useless their political principles are because they have no power or influence. That's why there is always a background refrain of "please stop concentrating power to the politicians it ends badly".

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balamatom
33 minutes ago
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>Why are all politicians so shit

So that you can blame them for your problems.

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usrnm
1 hour ago
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Mostly because they are people
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baal80spam
1 hour ago
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Who would have thought?!
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udev4096
38 minutes ago
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Why is this even surprising? Mass surveillance is not a new thing. It's been there since the inception of the internet. This only makes it "official" and is nothing more than a formality. We need to fight back by using decentralized and p2p software
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ax0ar
19 minutes ago
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It's not just the EU. OpenAI doesn't let you use their latest models via API unless you provide your biometric information. It's all about slowly laying the foundations of a repressive dystopian world.
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stingraycharles
18 minutes ago
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This is nonsense, stop spreading FUD.
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ax0ar
16 minutes ago
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What is untrue? You need to verify your identity with Persona to use GPT-5 or GPT 5.1 or a lot of other models.

"By filling the checkbox below, you consent to Persona, OpenAI’s vendor, collecting, using, and utilizing its service providers to process your biometric information to verify your identity, identify fraud, and conduct quality assurance for Persona’s platform in accordance with its Privacy Policy and OpenAI’s privacy policy. Your biometric information will be stored for no more than 1 year."

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