Credit report shows Meta keeping $27B off its books through advanced geometry
374 points
13 hours ago
| 25 comments
| stohl.substack.com
| HN
mathattack
26 seconds ago
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If someone feels this is a sham transaction, can't they buy Credit Default Swaps [0] betting that it will default?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_default_swap

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tgsovlerkhgsel
6 hours ago
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Isn't the point that they intentionally glossed over ("We did not model what would happen if data center demand collapses and Meta cannot secure a new tenant. This scenario was excluded for methodological convenience.") a pretty important one?

If I understand the explanations on HN, the complaint is that Meta is taking on debt, which would normally affect its credit rating, so they're "hiding" the debt in a LLC without materially changing anything. Thus, alleging that Meta is "faking" a higher credit rating than it should have.

However, it looks like this construct might actually protect Meta against the main two risks that might make the datacenter be unprofitable (force majeure like a disaster destroying it, or a collapse of datacenter demand), i.e. keeping the good credit rating may be justified because the construct is actually very different, protecting Meta from risk, even though the article suggests that it's just a fig leaf?

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pas
5 hours ago
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someone has to service the debt, and Meta has obligations to pay if the company cannot find any other tenant - if I understood correctly
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tgsovlerkhgsel
3 hours ago
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My understanding is that the residual value guarantee only covers "most modeled cases" and this case (which might be the only one where the datacenter could not be meaningfully utilized and the guarantee would be relevant) was the not-modelled one...
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caminante
57 minutes ago
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All scenarios are modelled. It's not complicated.

The issue is the short, 4y renewal cycle, which allows Meta to attempt superficial arguments to avoid accounting consolidation for the variable interest entity that they...pretty much (a) control and (b) have skin in the game.

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csomar
1 hour ago
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How is this different from a 5-10 year lease? You can sell the car to someone (or the construct) and he continue to service the debt or you can service the debt.

Now that am thinking about it (not accountant) does a lease show as debt or not?

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jrflowers
2 hours ago
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>Isn't the point that they intentionally glossed over ("We did not model what would happen if data center demand collapses and Meta cannot secure a new tenant. This scenario was excluded for methodological convenience.") a pretty important one?

It is a joke. This is a humor post on a comedy blog. This substack is not actually a bond rating agency.

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mrandish
8 hours ago
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It would be deeply ironic if this data center (or similar ones using creative accounting), are among those featured in the TV commercials Meta has been running in expensive national prime time slots in recent weeks.

I've seen at least two different commercials each focused entirely on the personal story of a relatable, folksy person living in a small town in a fly-over U.S. state, talking about how the town was declining and times were hard - then Meta built a new data center nearby and this person along with many others got jobs there and now things are great. They are very well-produced with cinematic shots of rustic small-town main streets, dusty pickup trucks in rural settings and local high school football games. Aside from the obvious brand-washing, it would be extra on-brand if it turns out Meta doesn't even own the data center but still tries to take credit for it.

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michaelt
6 hours ago
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> Meta built a new data center nearby and this person along with many others got jobs there and now things are great.

Creating such bustling workplaces as https://maps.app.goo.gl/fc9AGtsVwiLA1vd88 https://maps.app.goo.gl/fHvTWK4rWqrsqsmr9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/RzggPfd3xbBQbdoo6 and https://maps.app.goo.gl/MBjun6ad4zJmmrRV7

These facilities will sometimes employ as many as 100 people - so a state that can attract three such data centres creates almost as many new jobs as an entire wal-mart store. Truly, a transformative number of jobs.

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swatcoder
6 hours ago
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I was sure you were exaggerating. But no!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCVkA1xebrQ

It turns out the one in this ad is in Altoona, Iowa. The ad focuses on how it revitalized the community by providing jobs, kind of glossing over how that might be reflected in the massive facility's ~30 car parking lot.

And incidentally, that data center currently shows no open positions on Meta's career website, although third-party sites still have some dated listing for advanced IT positions that were probably filled by non-locals.

Ugh.

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michaelt
6 hours ago
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30 sounded low to me, but looking at the sprawling Altoona facility in Google Maps https://maps.app.goo.gl/KGLEpJRFiwVKYob89 satellite photos show 52 parking spaces in use across 11 buildings.

Lots of construction workers in the areas where they're putting up new buildings, though.

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evanelias
6 hours ago
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That data center started operation over a decade ago. There's no reason to assume it should have any vacancies currently, nor is there any reason to assume its positions were largely filled by non-locals. And even if a few external folks relocated in some cases, isn't that economically beneficial to the area regardless?

Also given the 24/7/365 nature of data center operation, the number of employees will be larger than the number of parking spots.

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AlotOfReading
5 hours ago
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Meta says over 400 people work on-site at the Altoona facility [0], but most of those are clearly working for a variety of smaller contractors given that the initial tax terms anticipated a few dozen direct employees [edit: wrong state] and no datacenter companies show up in the county's 50 largest employers [1].

[0] https://corridorbusiness.com/data-centers-bringing-big-numbe...

[1] https://www.pa.gov/content/dam/copapwp-pagov/en/dli/document...

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evanelias
5 hours ago
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The datacenter is in Altoona, Iowa. Your second link is about the county containing Altoona, Pennsylvania. Ditto for your population size number.
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AlotOfReading
5 hours ago
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Thanks, updated to reflect the correction.
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mrandish
4 hours ago
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> I was sure you were exaggerating. But no!

What? Me exaggerate? Never! :-) I did actually spend a minute looking for the commercial on YouTube but YT search sucks, so thanks for finding it. Setting aside the fact it's crassly manipulative corporate propaganda, as someone with a lot of film and video production experience, the production team that made it did very nice work. That's the only reason I actually ever even saw it. I normally skip through all commercials on the DVR, but I happened land on a couple of really nicely shot frames as I was skipping and rewound to see the spot. I thought, "Wow, blatant bullshit but great work!" :-)

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Slow_Hand
2 hours ago
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I'm chuckling at the comments for the video:

"If you add two pounds of sugar to literally one ton of concrete it will ruin the concrete and make it unable to set properly which is good to know if you wanna resist something being built..."

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skybrian
9 hours ago
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A quote from The Information via Matt Levine:

> The bonds for the Hyperion data center priced with a coupon of almost 6.6%, roughly a percentage point higher than Meta’s outstanding corporate bonds and in line with the average junk bond. That’s a higher yield than investors would expect given that S&P rated the Hyperion bonds A+, safely within the investment-grade spectrum.

Apparently the bond market is pricing the guarantees made by Meta to this other entity as not quite as good as bonds that Meta issues itself, and Meta is willing to pay the higher interest rate. So, not entirely a free lunch?

I guess sometimes a company wants to issue junk bonds and its rating gets in the way.

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jbs789
9 hours ago
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If the article is correct and they are 144A then they will also be a little less liquid. But yeah, I have to imagine everyone involved knows what’s up. Just happens to work for everyone (for now).
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siliconpotato
12 hours ago
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skybrian
7 hours ago
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The Forbes article says that "to be an operating lease [...] Meta must have the obligation to absorb the venture’s losses or the right to receive its benefits."

I don't know enough about finance to tell for sure, but this seems backwards?

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pas
5 hours ago
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it seems to mean that Meta would have to "rent" the whole operation (with all the potential upside and downside)
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austin-cheney
12 hours ago
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> This treatment is considered acceptable because the people who decide what is acceptable have accepted it.

Wasn't that the root of the 2008 crash? The debt spiral was acceptable because people were making enough money in the present that regulators were powerless to advise against it. In a sane world people often go to jail for decades when doing this at pennies on the dollar.

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loeg
11 hours ago
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The 2008 crash was in part caused by inaccurately rating synthetic bundles of subprime mortgage debt as extremely low risk (e.g. AAA). Subprime borrowers had a much higher risk of defaulting than a AAA rating implied.

On the other hand, Meta has great creditworthiness. And guarantees this vehicle. So... it's not the same.

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austin-cheney
9 hours ago
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That's not accurate.

This is debatable but subprime loans were mostly accurately rated. They were rated very low. That low rating was the ultimate precursor to the crash, because it means banks carrying those poorly rated vehicles needed to balance them with different highly rated vehicles to keep their own rating high enough to qualify carrying and lending other financial assets on their books. There were so many of these shitty loans that they had to repackage them to dilute their value/rating against their other highly rated assets, because there are limited number of highly rated assets any given bank could acquire at a moment.

That dilution was called a credit default swap, which is bundling under the guise of an insurance vehicle. This magnified the problem for two reasons: First these shitty assets can now be traded in large bulk and secondly any given bank can now carry more of them before further eroding their value. That proved catastrophic because this toxic debt could not be moved fast enough by anybody that held them. Its like hot potato or musical chairs, like Bitcoin. The only real difference between those credit default swaps and Bitcoin is only that everybody knows Bitcoin is intrinsically worthless and only exists as an instrument of speculation while many people actually thought these credit default swaps were real financial assets and that they were insured.

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loeg
9 hours ago
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The other parts of the 2008 crisis are even more dissimilar to this scenario than the MBS ratings.
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cyanydeez
9 hours ago
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Right, this is more like wash trading, in that companies like Meta are trying to syntehtically make it look like there's more assets involved in AI than there really are.
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tyre
11 hours ago
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Isn’t part of its creditworthiness how much debt it’s carrying? And if it’s shifting that off of its balance sheet, then it appears in better shape than it actually is.
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venturecruelty
9 hours ago
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Enron had great creditworthiness, too. They are, famously, a very rich and powerful company today.
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sethops1
10 hours ago
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Except they're taking on a huge amount of debt, enough that it would lower their credit rating, which is why they're trying to offload it ...
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underlipton
10 hours ago
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Until they don't. Lest we forget that Facebook's new handle was borne out of a pivot that's sunk almost a hundred billion dollars while being having been largely sidelined/abandoned. (I know that they're still doing a good deal of R&D, which is good, and a worthy investment, but 1) Carmack left, and 2) We apparently don't judge corporations on whether or not they're contributing to society, but only on whether they're in the red or black.)
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lenerdenator
7 hours ago
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> Wasn't that the root of the 2008 crash? The debt spiral was acceptable because people were making enough money in the present that regulators were powerless to advise against it. In a sane world people often go to jail for decades when doing this at pennies on the dollar.

I mean, yeah, but at the same time, and?

The lesson learned from 2008 was that no one was going to do anything of consequence to degenerate gamblers who kneecapped a generation's economic prospects. Then, in 2024, we doubled down on that position.

The behavior will continue until an effective consequence is introduced.

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exacube
13 hours ago
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I asked ChatGPT to make this more readable since it's a mix of satire and actual information:

(Clarification: I used a diabrowser.com feature to clarify the article, which uses ChatGPT underneath)

==============

Meta wants to build a huge AI data center campus in Louisiana. It costs about $28–29 billion. Instead of just borrowing the money itself and putting the debt on its own balance sheet, Meta uses a maze of LLCs and contracts to:

- Get $27.3 billion of debt raised by a special company called Beignet Investor LLC (80% owner of the project).

- Keep that debt off Meta’s official balance sheet, even though:

▫ Meta designs the campus,

▫ pays for overruns,

▫ pays the rent,

▫ guarantees the value at the end,

▫ and will basically be the only user.

In real life, this is basically Meta borrowing to build its own data center. On paper, it’s “someone else’s” debt.

Why is this off-balance-sheet?

The accounting rules say you only have to put an entity on your balance sheet if you “control” it and take on most of the risk/benefit.

Meta’s position is: “We don’t control this JV company, even though we do all the important things and take on all the risk.”

The rating agency in the piece is mocking this. They list all the ways Meta obviously controls and supports the project, then say: under current accounting rules, if Meta insists it doesn’t control it, we all politely pretend that’s true. So the $27B debt doesn’t show up on Meta’s balance sheet, even though economically it’s Meta’s problem.

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bluGill
13 hours ago
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If the llc declares bankruptcy does meta have to pay the bank for it - or can they buy the assets at fire sale prices?
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friendzis
12 hours ago
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I have skimmed through the article and if I get the details through all the humor, satire and sarcasm even remotely correct, the major assets are actually the duality of payment obligations and residual value guarantees, both from meta. One could include cost overrun protection at the construction time too.

The "fire sale prices" would be so delicious as to guarantee that the entity(-ies) involved stay solvent as long as meta stays solvent.

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detourdog
12 hours ago
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My personal experience with LLC loans and banks is that the bank is using the assets as collateral and me as a backstop.
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mcny
12 hours ago
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I thought the whole point of LLC was to limit liability so you wouldn't be liable for debt beyond your paid up capital? Why would you ever sign a personal guarantee?
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hattmall
8 hours ago
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>Why would you ever sign a personal guarantee?

So that they will lend you the money...

It's not always required, depends on the amount and the business.

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detourdog
11 hours ago
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The liability I’m shielded from is not debt I specifically requested. I’m shielded from unknown events.
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hrimfaxi
10 hours ago
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Why would the CEO have the personal liability here and not the board? Does Sundar Pichai have to personally guarantee loans for Google? That would be weird since the CEO could be fired.
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svnt
9 hours ago
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No, but this person’s LLC is not capitalized quite as well as Google, and the bank is adjusting the loan to account for that fact.
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bdangubic
12 hours ago
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banks are not stupid… you can’t just open LLC, borrow billion bucks, spend it and then be like “oops, LLC mates, not liable”
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htrp
11 hours ago
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You can if you are Meta and are willing to litigate the hell out of it.
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notatoad
8 hours ago
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“If you are meta” in this case means “if you have a billion dollars already, and a credit rating that you don’t want to destroy.

Nobody is trying to pull one over on a bank here. Pricing the risk of the loan is a bank’s whole business, they’re happy to loan to meta because meta is meta, and they’re a good candidate for a loan.

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hrimfaxi
10 hours ago
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Do you think any CEOs of gigantic corporations are personally liable for any loans made by the companies they work for? I would be incredibly, incredibly surprised to hear if that's the case.
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svnt
9 hours ago
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More like if you are Meta and are viewed as a lucrative business opportunity by the bank.
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YetAnotherNick
9 hours ago
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Then why don't they do it? It's the easiest money they can ever make. Even I can litigate the hell out of it if I get $27B, take the money and close the LLC.
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richiebful1
10 hours ago
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"Me" in this case being a stand-in for the principal owner, which could be a corporation, individual, or group of individuals
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typs
12 hours ago
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Meta doesn't actually owe the bank anything in this setup. That would be Blackrock and the other private creditors.
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loeg
11 hours ago
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Mechanistically, how would the LLC achieve bankruptcy?
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wmf
10 hours ago
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Meta would have to not renew the lease and somehow nullify the residual value guarantee. This would leave the LLC with no revenue at all. If the RVG works there should be no chance of bankruptcy.
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jmalicki
11 hours ago
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you just... file for bankruptcy like any other person or corporation?
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loeg
11 hours ago
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Yeah but when you come to bankruptcy court with significantly more assets than debt, they aren't going to let you sell the business for pennies.

I'm asking how you would believe this vehicle would go broke, which is the usual reason to go to bankruptcy.

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jmalicki
7 hours ago
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Meta may have lots of assets, but the LLC may not. The ability to have one wholly owned LLC go bankrupt by itself is one of the main reasons shell corporations exist.
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tjwebbnorfolk
11 hours ago
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Corporate bankruptcy happens for a lot of reasons other than being "broke". Chapter 11 is a court-supervised way of restructuring your debt. This has a lot of utility in many situations other than not being able to pay.
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gruez
11 hours ago
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It'll go before a judge and creditors would be able to object, so if it's just a ploy to get rid of debt you can be certain it'd be contested.
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Spooky23
8 hours ago
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I think it’s naive to focus on “what is meta getting” from Beignet.

As an example to stimulate your imagination, Walmart has settled as recently as 2019 to resolve liability due to weak internal controls that allowed “third party affiliates” to bribe local officials and others in various ways.

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master_crab
8 hours ago
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I asked almost this same question a few weeks ago here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45628186

But the one thing that doesn’t compute is the commitment. There is a long term obligation now incurred by meta to use this infrastructure. If it’s a capital lease I assume this is now a liability on their books (and disclosures)?

Fade-Dance had a fairly reasonable answer to it:

Maybe they don't want to securitize their core assets and introduce a new favored class of investor. Ex: If they are securitizing their AI data centers as part of the initial capital raise, those investors would be higher up the capital stack. They would get the datacenter in a theoretical bankruptcy before the bond/equity holders got their cut of the liquidation. Intel securitized their new fab builds with Brookfield and Apollo and, as a shareholder at the time, it didn't feel great. No idea what the precedent is regarding Meta by the way, just a thought. Maybe they think that the lenders are a bit "overzealous", and they want to push the risk of things like write down on GPU racks entirely onto external parties who are apparently all too happy to take the risk. I'm guessing it's a mix of both, combined with the fact that we're seeing some copy and paste thinking. This is proving to be a way to get fast access to the huge private credit market. I would assume there must be some very wide deal flow pipes cranking currently, so why not tap into them if the demand is there in the other end.

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loeg
11 hours ago
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A lot of comments praising this summary, but I'll criticize it: it's still too verbose, and misses the point.

Meta wants to fund this project, but doesn't want the debt on own its books (because it would impact its vanity AA credit rating). Debt investors are happy to finance a special purpose vehicle guaranteed (in a non debt way) by Meta at a credit rating almost as good as Meta's (say, A). No one is confused this is Meta getting financing for their own project; they've just put it in a wrapper for vanity credit score reasons.

Levine wrote about it and his writing is better than ChatGPT, this snarky website, and obviously mine: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newsletters/2025-10-29/put... .

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illwrks
11 hours ago
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So… ‘vanity’ ratings… what’s the point of them then.
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rsync
11 hours ago
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I think "vanity" is the wrong term because their existing credit rating, which they attempt to preserve, impacts all other borrowing (and possibly other agreements and finance vehicles, etc.) that they undertake.

So it's probably valuable to retain that credit rating.

The real issue here is how simple it is to game the rating agency in this way and how the market allows Meta to "launder" this activity through the ratings agency.

This is, in fact, a fairly close analogue to the housing crisis and the ratings laundering that was done with the CDOs[1]. The difference is, instead of drilling down to thousands of mortgages - each with different characteristics - you really just drill down to Meta ... which might not be too risky ...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation

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illwrks
11 hours ago
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Agreed. I know very little about financing but I’d bet if their rating fell that would trigger some debt repayment clause and the house of financial cards might wobble or fall.

…someone needs to shake the tree and see what falls out, like Peter Thiel did for SVB.

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Aurornis
10 hours ago
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There are a lot of places where the credit ratings are hardcoded (to borrow a term) into funds. There are pension funds and other vehicles that might be bound to only invest in AA rated companies.

So if a company drops their AA rating it could force them out of a lot of funds and investment vehicles.

This complicated vehicle where the debt and assets are in another LLC isn’t actually tricking anyone in finance. If you’re reading about it from blogs then it’s already common knowledge. The structure isn’t actually a one way trick, it’s a set of tradeoffs and protections for the company. They probably could have achieved better terms going direct but with higher risk.

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everybodyknows
7 hours ago
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> isn’t actually tricking anyone in finance.

Surely the ratings agency people are "in finance"? Or are they in on the game, and sliding their way back to 2008, writing ratings for "deals structured by cows"?

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Aurornis
37 minutes ago
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They're not being "tricked" in the way these sensational substack posts would like us to think. You're not being given some secret knowledge that the ratings agencies don't have.

The mistake throughout this comment section is to assume that the debt is functionally equivalent to Meta haven taken it on themselves, consequences and all. It's not.

Putting things in an LLC vehicle provides some protections. Both for large corporations and you and me as individuals. However if you put an asset in the LLC the lenders also know that those protections exist and will adjust terms accordingly. Meta has taken this into account, found some favorable terms, and pursued that direction.

The narrative that this is a secret loophole that lets them take on debt but also not take on debt is the substack authors doing their thing to make it more sensational than informative.

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loeg
4 hours ago
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Is anyone actually limited to only AA+? The usual meaningful separation is investment grade (AAA, AA, A, and maybe BBB) vs junk (everything else). (I don't think Meta would meaningfully lose access to credit if they were downgraded to A.)
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phendrenad2
4 hours ago
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Funds and investment vehicles subtly lowering their standards while the downstream investors remain clueless is how we got 2008, no?
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illwrks
10 hours ago
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Instinctively I try and simplify things. It this was a person with an excellent credit score, it’s as if the person is taking on extra debt to start to create something they need, but trying to hide it.
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Aurornis
8 hours ago
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But that simplification isn’t the whole story. If that person took on debt as part of an LLC they started, not their personal bank account, then they have certain protections in the event of default of the LLC.

They will also have to pay a premium and give up more for debt to the LLC because the lenders know this.

The same is true for Meta.

The finance world isn’t blind. None of us hear are stumbling upon hidden knowledge that the lenders didn’t already have.

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illwrks
7 hours ago
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Ah ok, now that makes sense. Thank you.
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bregma
11 hours ago
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Still too verbose. Here's a TL;DR.

Meta is borrowing a whole lot of money and they're lying about it to investors.

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loeg
11 hours ago
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No one is lying or deceived here.
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toomuchtodo
11 hours ago
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Ehh, tell me the credit ratings assigned by rating agencies to mortgage backed securities circa 2005-2007. Its an ecosystem with misaligned incentives, and some cohort of investor will be left holding the bag. Big Tech, investment banks, and ratings agencies will get off with no consequences when this Jenga-esq capital apparatus eventually collapses.
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robocat
11 hours ago
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A nice article on the underlying systemic causes of the crash:

https://archive.ph/2015.11.08-145615/http://www.wired.com/20...

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SpicyLemonZest
11 hours ago
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I don't see what's Jenga-esque about this capital structure. You've got some AA- bonds issued directly by Meta having to do with their core business, and some A+ bonds issued by different entities to fund their riskier and more speculative datacenter construction. If anything, wouldn't it be harder to track the risk if both these bonds were stuffed into the same bucket?
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lazide
7 hours ago
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Except for a few instances, there wasn’t any lying or outright fraud in that situation, just like there probably isn’t here either.

Just desperate, stupid, or naive lenders trying to get solid returns (and convincing themselves there are no major risk).

Just like ‘08, frankly.

Have enough lawyers, and you can make almost anything legal and aboveboard, no matter how sketchy it actually is. Buyer beware!

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bregma
10 hours ago
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Investor: Is this your debt, Meta?

Meta: (hiding debt behind its back) No. It's Jimmy's.

Investor: Now Meta, you know lying is wrong.

Meta: No it's not. All the kids do it so it's OK.

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cyanydeez
9 hours ago
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If it's related to AI, it's more like wash trading. The entire business interest in AI is making things look like there's a lot of investment when it's really just a small circle jerk of business interests.

It's just a more advanced crypto fraud.

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emp17344
11 hours ago
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It’s not necessarily lying, but it’s certainly deceptive.
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ejoso
10 hours ago
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Not even deceptive. This is relatively normal business practice.

It’s easier to think of this as “project risk” as opposed to corporate risk overall.

This isn’t different than creating a subsidiary to embark on a new program, with its own debts and assets, collateralized by a parent company.

It’s effectively the same as what happens every time a major movie studio starts a new film project.

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svnt
9 hours ago
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Usually subsidiaries’ debt is not also debt on the parent company, especially when said parent is publicly traded and subject to accounting/disclosure rules.
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NetOpWibby
12 hours ago
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Thank you, I actually understand what this is all about now.
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MonkeyClub
9 hours ago
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I don't get why Beignet doesn't also hire Meta and pay it to build the DC.
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selimthegrim
12 hours ago
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This is hilarious because I was at the Louisiana public utility commission meeting where the argument was basically it’s Meta borrowing the money so they’re good for it.
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xrd
6 hours ago
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Please do say more about this!
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tensor
6 hours ago
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Is coreweave a similar situation?
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RA_Fisher
11 hours ago
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They can get a better interest rate by using a specialty data center lender.
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cm2012
12 hours ago
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Very useful, ty
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xrd
6 hours ago
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I can't for the life of me figure out who would fund this, other than Saudi oil money or Russian petro-oligarchs, both so they can whitewash or launder their cash. This just makes no sense to me otherwise.
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bdangubic
6 hours ago
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I get what you are saying but this is one of the largest conpanies on the planet asking for what is little more than change for them… it may make just a little sense :)
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NewsaHackO
10 hours ago
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wow, what a great summary.
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CPLX
12 hours ago
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Is Meta actually obligated to repay the loans or not?

That’s how you can decide if this is disingenuous or not. If Meta is obligated to repay the loan and used to synthetic means to get it off the balance sheet that’s a problem.

If they have in fact successfully transferred risk to other parties then that’s what deals like this are for. It’s the whole reason the concept of limited liability exists.

I am fully willing to believe it’s the former. But that’s the test.

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tgsovlerkhgsel
6 hours ago
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To me it reads like the article intentionally pretends two major risks (force majeure and datacenter demand collapse) don't exist, by quipping that "rating agencies historically treat as theoretical inconveniences rather than recurring features of the physical world" for the former and explicitly saying they ignored it for "methodological convenience" for the latter.

If those have been offloaded to the LLC, wouldn't that be a pretty key difference?

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loeg
11 hours ago
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I don't think Meta has a debt relationship with the loans involved here; that's the point. It does have strong contractual obligations to the wrapper business, though.
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gruez
11 hours ago
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>Is Meta actually obligated to repay the loans or not?

They aren't, but they're obligated to pay leases for it (they can't just build the datacenter and then walk away), which is kind of like having to repay the "loans".

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jfengel
10 hours ago
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I'm not an accountant, but "contractually obligated to pay" sounds like a debt to me.

If the Generally Accepted Accounting Principles don't require that to manifest on the balance sheet, then it sounds like the principles aren't very good ones.

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CPLX
3 hours ago
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It’s not though. Signing a lease isn’t debt. If you rent an apartment you haven’t taken out a loan from your landlord.

Being conceptually similar isn’t the same thing as identical.

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xmprt
12 hours ago
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Even if they aren't obligated to repay, they have to in practice because it'll impact their ability to get loans in the future. If the shell company declares bankruptcy and gets the loans off Meta's books no one will ever loan money to Meta again.
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Aurornis
12 hours ago
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They would still be able to get loans, but the terms would be much worse.

Basically, if we’re reading about it from substacks and Matt Levine’s newsletter then it’s already fully common knowledge in the finance world.

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loeg
12 hours ago
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Eh, debt investors have short memories. They buy 100 year bonds from Argentina, for fuck's sake. It might limit Meta's ability to do this SPV trick.
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bgwalter
12 hours ago
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"None of this is unusual except for the part where Meta designs, builds, guarantees, operates, funds the overruns, pays the rent, and does not consolidate it."

So ChatGPT put this sentence in list form and reordered it a bit. AGI is imminent!

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AndrewKemendo
12 hours ago
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This might be the first time an explicit ChatGPT response survived being the top comment

I personally think it’s a great response and makes it clearer what’s happening

Times are changing quickly!

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pezgrande
12 hours ago
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One year ago was taboo to say you were using LLM to help you code, today is the other way around...
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Aurornis
12 hours ago
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> today is the other way around...

It is definitely not taboo to say you’re writing your own code.

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bdangubic
11 hours ago
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could get you fired in more and more places though… :)
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Aurornis
8 hours ago
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If you only see the world through crazy headlines, this probably seems true.
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bdangubic
6 hours ago
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not just headlines, former colleagues and friends
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lawlessone
11 hours ago
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where?
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lazide
12 hours ago
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This isn’t to code. It’s tk summarize - something LLMs are usually good at, since they’re essentially lossy text/knowledge compression at their root.
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int3trap
12 hours ago
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Yeah... no it's not.
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AndrewKemendo
11 hours ago
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This is testable:

Can you link to another one?

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crazygringo
10 hours ago
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Seriously. I thought about doing the same because I couldn't make heads or tails of the article, and then assumed it would just all be downvotes... glad to see it wasn't.
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slurrpurr
9 hours ago
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reading is really hard. I'm so happy ChatGPT exists
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p4bl0
13 hours ago
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Relevant excerpts to understand what's at play here:

> (…) this is functionally Meta borrowing $27.30 billion for a campus no one else will touch, packaged in legal formality precise enough to satisfy the letter of consolidation rules and absurd enough to insult the spirit.

> The structure maintains a precarious technical separation that, under current interpretations of accounting guidance, allows Meta to keep roughly $27 billion of assets and debt off its own balance sheet while continuing to provide every meaningful form of economic support.

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gorgoiler
12 hours ago
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It’s buried in the article but this about a debt vehicle created to finance a “2.064 GW hyperscale data center campus”. That’s approximately equivalent to a One-Third-Gorges Dam (one tenth of the Three Gorges Dam.)

Downstream of the capex to build the data centre is, presumably, a sister capex to build a power station. At what stage do these come hand in hand? Or does this financing include provisions to pay the electricity bills for the next ten years which, in turn, gets used by the power company to finance the construction of a new power plant? The power company gets some kind of heads up?

If I finance the construction of a mile long dinner table due for late November 2026, presumably some of that had to trickle down into a local turkey farm, lest everyone go hungry?

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loeg
11 hours ago
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> Or does this financing include provisions to pay the electricity bills for the next ten years which, in turn, gets used by the power company to finance the construction of a new power plant? The power company gets some kind of heads up?

Mostly things like this, yeah. The hyperscalers don't want to get into the power business.

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cyanydeez
9 hours ago
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They also need artificial demand to keep the valuations of their data centers high, so generating multiple business interests creating wash trading benefits their interests.
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underlipton
10 hours ago
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Of course not. We're eating roast beast. (I'm saying that the entire endeavor is a fairy tale that we're misguidedly bringing into live-action.)
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clipsy
12 hours ago
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> One-Third-Gorges Dam (one tenth of the Three Gorges Dam.)

Pedantically, that's one ninth of the Three Gorges Dam. One tenth would be the 0.3 Gorges Dam.

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mertd
12 hours ago
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This is hardly a secret. Matt Levine blogged about it: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newsletters/2025-10-29/put...
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lxgr
12 hours ago
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Does it need to be a secret to be noteworthy, especially if it’s apparently working despite not being a secret anymore?
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mertd
11 hours ago
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I meant to say it's not new information. The blog post I linked is from a month ago. It is also more accessible for casual reading.
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lxgr
8 hours ago
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> I meant to say it's not new information

So? As usual, xkcd 1053 applies :) https://xkcd.com/1053/

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alex1138
5 hours ago
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This is HN, you're supposed to say "is anyone surprised" and sprinkle in the word Nothingburger and other naval gazing platitudes I'm sure I can think of
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brazukadev
7 hours ago
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And? At least find the previous HN discussions if you are gonna say this is old news.
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loeg
12 hours ago
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yellow_lead
13 hours ago
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Unfortunately I didn't find a mention of any mathematical geometry in the article.
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sega_sai
9 hours ago
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asah
13 hours ago
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LOL "The entity is named “Beignet,” presumably because “Off-Balance-Sheet Leverage Vehicle No. 5” tested poorly with focus groups."
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randycupertino
12 hours ago
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Meta's accounting games are entirely reminiscent of Enron, who famously named their off-balance sheet debt-hiding special purpose vehicles after Star Wars "Jedi 1, Jedi 2," Jurassic Park, "Raptors 1 through 7," and the crooked CFO's kids "LJM" etc.
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cyanydeez
9 hours ago
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AI companies are running the same frauds as multiple, but I think cryptocurrency/FTX is more apt. They're creating artificial demand by trading contract with themselves and using those assets to make it look like they've got more revenues & assets of value.
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NewsaHackO
8 hours ago
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I assume you have no proof of this, correct?
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cyanydeez
5 hours ago
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venturecruelty
9 hours ago
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"A Love Letter to Enron" would sound really bad in the deposition.
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seanmcdirmid
12 hours ago
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It’s a fitting name for Louisiana at least. But this place is next Monroe which is…nowhere near New Orleans.
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dfedbeef
11 hours ago
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We get it you want it to be named Boudin
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seanmcdirmid
10 hours ago
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Delta would be a good name. It’s fairly near to the delta in reality.
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lathiat
13 hours ago
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This entire thing was a masterpiece I love it.
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SOLAR_FIELDS
12 hours ago
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It definitely has the Voltaire/Onion like snark and cynicism with biting accuracy that really gets me going. We need more well informed rants disguised in heavy sarcasm
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shrubble
12 hours ago
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Monroe LA is the former headquarters of Lumen, they realized that their corporate headquarters was a white elephant and donated it to the local university I think. However that means there is available power capacity from the local power company and of course, fair amounts of fiber optic cable nearby.
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JoshTko
12 hours ago
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I’m guessing Meta isn’t the only one doing this
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loeg
11 hours ago
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Right.

> I should say that the big tech companies did not invent this technology to build AI data centers. This sort of thing — project finance, non-consolidated joint ventures, borrowing out of boxes — has a long history in a lot of capital-intensive industries.

Levine attributes a recent increase to private credit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newsletters/2025-10-29/put...

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epistasis
12 hours ago
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You would guess right, and I have even heard that this sort thing has been standard practice for a long time, without nefarious intent.

The problem is that even standard practice, without nefarious intent, can cause massive financial collapse. If, say, the vast majority of economic growth were being focused into such vehicles, the lack of transparency could make people misanalyze the situation and result in bad valuations that collapse when it all becomes transparent.

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barchar
10 hours ago
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Yeah, it's very dumb to own real estate like this directly for a c-corp
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hrimfaxi
10 hours ago
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Is it dumb for tax reasons?
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barchar
9 hours ago
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Yes. 21% CIT + 15-20% LTCG for the owners.

RE throws off much income.

It's also difficult to transfer the RE to another entity without realizing gains.

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totallymike
12 hours ago
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Folks in the comments here begging ChatGPT to teach them how to read
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Aurornis
12 hours ago
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This article is poorly written. It’s so desperate to be clever and edgy that it’s hard to get the facts out of it.

ChatGPT isn’t really a solution because the source is both low quality and has questionable motives. Going to any of the other good articles on the subject that have been linked in this comment section is much better.

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parliament32
11 hours ago
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It's well written for its target audience, people who are used to reading financial analyses.
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Aurornis
8 hours ago
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Hard disagree. I read a lot of well-written financial analyses and this isn’t it at all.

The target audience is people who want to be angry at Meta and think that they’re smarter than finance people.

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walletdrainer
7 hours ago
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While I’ve seen a plenty of silly reports from big bank analysts, they usually have the advantage of not coming across like complete idiots when saying things like this

> We assign a preliminary A+ rating to the notes, one notch below Meta’s issuer credit rating,

It’s hard to get away with that when the report is attributed to a company and person which don’t seem to exist, hosted on some randos substack. Wording like that works way better when it comes from a sender with an address ending with @bigbank.com

Of course, the latter parts of the post (Disclaimer and Limitation of Liability) do reveal pretty definitively that this is obviously not intended to be a serious report.

As for the content itself? The author tries really hard to turn a whole lot of nothing into something, and horribly misinterprets the GAAP in the process.

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bdangubic
11 hours ago
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this is the future of human-written articles - they will obligatory be written like this as 99% of article comments on HN these days is “oh, this is AI written.” :)
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venturecruelty
9 hours ago
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Don't say "I'm critical of AI", say "I have questionable motives"!
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turtlesdown11
10 hours ago
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It's actually written quite well, you just have to understand the underlying financial documents and methodology.

Things that are hard to read because you lack context is not the same as poor writing.

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Aurornis
8 hours ago
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No it’s not. It’s sarcastic, snarky, sneery content that appeals to a certain group.

The actual subject matter has already been covered well by good writers like Matt Levine, WSJ, and others.

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turtlesdown11
7 hours ago
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> No it’s not. It’s sarcastic, snarky, sneery content that appeals to a certain group.

What on earth does your second sentence have to do with the quality of the writing? Try just a bit to separate your emotions from the text.

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rs186
11 hours ago
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It is not the reader's fault if the article is unreadable in the first place.

Not to mention that asking help to explain a text is extremely common. I can read English, but I have never read a US supreme court ruling. There are much better ways for me to understand those rulings to me as a non-lawyer.

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tyre
11 hours ago
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Many SCOTUS opinions, especially the major ones, are very readable! The justices and clerks are excellent writers.

The most publicly notable cases (on things like abortion, gerrymandering, gun control, etc.) aren’t so tied down in complex precedent or laws the average person is unfamiliar with.

Although, even some of those (like, for me, issues around Native American sovereignty or maritime law) are quite readable as well.

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turtlesdown11
7 hours ago
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> I can read English, but I have never read a US supreme court ruling. There are much better ways for me to understand those rulings to me as a non-lawyer.

Having admitted to never having read a SCOTUS ruling, how can you then proclaim there are better ways for you to understand? How could you possibly make that assertion if you've never read a SCOTUS ruling?

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jcranmer
3 hours ago
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> Having admitted to never having read a SCOTUS ruling, how can you then proclaim there are better ways for you to understand? How could you possibly make that assertion if you've never read a SCOTUS ruling?

A SCOTUS ruling is a primary source, and there's a pretty good universal rule that primary sources can be difficult to properly digest if you don't fully have the context of the source; for most people, reading a secondary source or a tertiary source will be a superior vehicle than the primary source for understanding. Although that said, some secondary and tertiary sources do end up being just utter garbage (a standard example is the university press release for any scientific paper--the actual merits of that paper is generally mangled to hell.)

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epistasis
12 hours ago
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The difficulty understanding this piece comes from lack of knowledge about finance and ratings, not from an inability to read. The blog assumes a large amount of financial knowledge which is not common among the HN audience.
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walletdrainer
7 hours ago
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This whole blog reeks of WSB, pretty sure the target audience is not people with a large amount of financial knowledge.
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crote
11 hours ago
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It seems fairly understandable even without financial knowledge?

1. Facebook creates a shell company.

2. The shell company borrows billions of dollars, and builds a data center.

3. Facebook leases the data center.

4. The fact that it is technically only a four-year lease with only one possible tenant can conveniently be ignored, as Facebook assumes essentially all possible risks. The shell company could only possibly lose money if Facebook itself goes under, so the lenders can treat the loan as just as reliable as Facebook itself.

5. Because Facebook technically only has a four-year lease, it can pretend it doesn't actually control the shell company: after all, it can always just decide not to renew the lease. The fact that is assumes essentially all possible risks can conveniently be ignored, so Facebook can treat it as a separate entity and doesn't have to treat the debt as its own.

So the lenders are happy because there's no real risk to them, and Facebook is happy because they can pretend a $27B loan doesn't exist. It's a win-win, except for the part where they are lying to their shareholders about not taking on a $27B loan.

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pyvpx
12 hours ago
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It is so hopelessly depressing. I was wrapt reading it from start to finish and thoroughly enjoyed it as few recent articles at length have been.

And then going to the comments, excitedly no less, to find…this?

Jfc :’(

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skizm
10 hours ago
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Serious questions: won't banks and ratings agencies simply treat this as Meta's debt since it it effectively Meta's debt? What changes if this was on their "official balance sheet"? How does playing with the wording actually help Meta overall?
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ryukoposting
9 hours ago
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The crux of this article is that they won't treat Meta's debt as debt, because Meta intentionally structured this debt to circumvent the agencies' definition of "debt." Should they change their definition of "debt?" Maybe, but what incentive do they have to do that, is any formal definition bulletproof to circumvention, etc.

What's very interesting to me is what happens when Meta doesn't exercise those lease options. If there isn't some kind of penalty for declining the option, well...

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cyanydeez
9 hours ago
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As in the 2008 crash, the ratings agencies were disincentivized to accurately rate these vehicles because they were superficially masked and paid by the companies asking them for ratings.
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daemonologist
11 hours ago
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It seems to me that the lengthiness and opacity of the report is part of the joke, and therefore running it through ChatGPT kind of misses the point. (The "FSG analyst" would have intentionally spread a layer of BS on top of everything to make it a lot of extra work to understand that the debt should actually be on Meta's books. Of course it's satirical so it calls out its own absurdity instead of actually burying it.)

As has been mentioned though if you purely want the info there are more succinct articles out there, e.g.: https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercohan/2025/11/25/metas-ai-...

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kuberwastaken
10 hours ago
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Soo they just borrowed money from themselves to pay for their data center? Nice.
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loeg
9 hours ago
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No, the capital comes from someone else. IIUC, private credit.
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colinbartlett
13 hours ago
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Can anyone comment about how common this (apparently legal) practice is?
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sbierwagen
12 hours ago
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A couple thousand of them in the US https://carta.com/data/spv-spotlight-q3-2024/
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SoftTalker
12 hours ago
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MBAs gotta have something to do.
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SpicyLemonZest
12 hours ago
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Setting up a separate company for a major construction project is so common that it would be surprising to hear someone didn’t do it. The structure of the OP makes it hard to understand if there’s some more specific aspect he’s objecting to.
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kjs3
4 hours ago
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Film industry, too, as I understand it. Pretty much every production is set up with it's own LLC.
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rufusdali
13 hours ago
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About as common as breathing.
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a-dub
10 hours ago
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even a really strong shot of cafe bustelo failed to make this an interesting read.
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turtlesdown11
12 hours ago
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remember that time Facebook spent $10s of billions on the metaverse?
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loeg
11 hours ago
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They continue to spend $4B/quarter on this as of 2025Q3 financials.
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Hamuko
7 hours ago
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Meta (which is short for the metaverse btw) occasionally remembers the metaverse existing, too, whenever there's a small break to be had from the AI stuff.

https://bsky.app/profile/mailia.bsky.social/post/3lwys6d6r6s...

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hrimfaxi
10 hours ago
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What's your point with this comment? How can we ever hope for another Bell Labs if we decry companies taking risks on things no one even asked for?
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turtlesdown11
7 hours ago
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how could we ever deserve another juicero or quibi, right?
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hrimfaxi
3 hours ago
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Do you really think the kinds of technology that are adjacent to or enablers for vr are on the same level as juicero?
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stevesimmons
13 hours ago
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> The Outlook is Superficially Stable, defined here as “By outward appearances stable unless, you know, things happen. Then we’ll downgrade after the shit hits the fan.”
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jrflowers
7 hours ago
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HN commenters flustered, baffled by the words on the screen: “Why would he say it like that? The phrasing is so foreign, it’s like the author wants me to laugh at it. The only way to understand this is to ask a chat bot what I should think the point is”
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JimmyBuckets
6 hours ago
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This is the lamest place to do ragebait. Facebook is probably more fun.
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jrflowers
5 hours ago
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I appreciate this serious response to a joke about hn users not identifying jokes in a thread where hn posters are treating a comedy blog like an actual bond rating service
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