Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton
228 points
13 hours ago
| 23 comments
| areweanticheatyet.com
| HN
LanceH
5 hours ago
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Amongst the discussion of rootkits and anti-cheat, I would like to add that part of the reason it is necessary is caused by the game companies that took away the standard method of playing multiplayer -- players running their own servers.

It used to be pretty easy to just ban people from playing, now we're 100% reliant on their ability to do it. So we have anti-cheat which roots our computer, and still doesn't 100% solve the problem.

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LMYahooTFY
3 hours ago
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This isn't the reason.

The reason it's necessary is because players want to be able to play with/against other players around the world. Matchmaking requires some form of anti-cheat. Running your own server as admin can't give you the degree of competitive global ranking that players enjoy today.

And cheating is an arms race. It's just hacking. You either preserve game integrity or you're going to have cheaters.

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LanceH
1 hour ago
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We lost a lot of other things as well. Like modding and especially maps.

It doesn't matter how good the game developers are, someone out there is could make a better map.

The studios took control of everything, and their answer is to rootkit our computers, and to buy more DLC if we want another map.

Personally, I don't accept the premise that such studio control is necessary for me to have fun playing a game.

I especially miss custom maps.

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pnw
9 minutes ago
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There are hundreds of popular games with mod support. See https://mod.io/g

If anything, we are in a golden age of mods!

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Rohansi
1 hour ago
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This has nothing to do with anti-cheat. I work on Rust and most servers are hosted by the community and there is a good modding+custom map scene. The game has an anti-cheat because it's a big target for cheaters.
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LMYahooTFY
1 hour ago
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Do you work on community maps?

Rust remains maybe the last true community game that's just solid all the way through where the studio is good to its players and doesn't patronize and betray them. I can have the sort of fun I would have had 20 years ago in Rust, and everything else feels like monocultural slop by comparison.

I wish more of my friends wanted to play it, and wish I had more time for it.

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LMYahooTFY
1 hour ago
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I agree with you in sentiment and am very nostalgic for the pre-monoculture days, but I also acknowledge that competitive games are a multi-billion dollar industry, and trying to moderate a game with millions of players in a distributed environment is just a non-starter.

You reject the premise that such control is necessary for your idea of fun.

But millions of players enjoy ranked matchmaking enough that without aggressive anti cheat you will wind up with cheaters.

I hate the root kits as well, but if you spend any time playing Valorant vs CS, you will see the difference. If I play CS consistently I'll get cheaters once or twice a week. In Valorant it's almost unheard of by comparison. It sucks, but that's just what's happening.

Do I wish I at least had the option in Valorant or whatever to host a server? Absolutely. Do I think they use the rootkits maliciously? No, generally not. Do I think studios are disincentivized to provide server hosting due to DLC or microtransactions? Definitely. But I also think there's often also a game integrity component. All of these things can be true simultaneously.

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MetaWhirledPeas
49 minutes ago
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> can't give you the degree of competitive global ranking that players enjoy today

I'm curious to know how player stats and global rankings truly affect game adoption (not that you can accurately measure what I'm asking for). It seems to me the more popular the game the less it matters because everyone becomes a small fish in a big pond. Rank one billion out of a gajillion. The games where it matters more would be the smaller games, which have less of a cheating problem to begin with.

I do agree however that you won't get the adoption without centralization, if only because centralization is exactly where all the money resides, via DLC and other nonsense. Therefore centralization is exactly where all the marketing money goes. And without marketing you don't usually get blockbuster games. So expecting the rootkits to go away is a lost cause, until client-side rendering goes away, at least.

That may be the answer to playing these rootkit titles on Linux: just stream it. I know it's somewhat lame, and I know it adds latency, but I seem to recall a recent demonstrate of a service where the latency is very minimal. Clearly I'm a bit out of touch with the state of the art, heh.

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duskwuff
38 minutes ago
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WRT player stats and rankings: I'm inclined to disagree. Rankings in small team-based game communities tend to be pretty noisy. Matchmaking often ends up constrained by the number of online players searching for a game at the same time, so the teams may not be well balanced, and the outcome of the match can be decided by the presence of a single highly skilled player who happened to be searching for a match at the right moment. The resulting rankings aren't necessarily a good measure of player skill, especially at the high end.

Larger games have the luxury of being able to place those highly skilled players into teams consisting entirely of other players of similar skill levels, against teams of similar composition. The results of those games are a better reflection of those players' skill.

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jsheard
58 minutes ago
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> The reason it's necessary is because players want to be able to play with/against other players around the world. Matchmaking requires some form of anti-cheat. Running your own server as admin can't give you the degree of competitive global ranking that players enjoy today.

Case in point, Counter Strike is a rare example of a popular game which supports both the "modern" matchmaking paradigm and the classic community server paradigm... and for better or worse the playerbase overwhelmingly prefers matchmaking.

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hamdingers
42 minutes ago
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> and the playerbase overwhelmingly prefers matchmaking

The server browser is buried under a couple layers of obtuse menus (and, at present, is completely broken on my SteamOS machine) while matchmaking is obvious and straightforward. You cannot come to any reasonable conclusions about player preference given the way the UI drives players towards matchmaking and away from servers. If they were presented on equal footing you might have a point.

Consider also TF2. It launched as a server-based game, and in the years after matchmaking was added Valve went through many UX iterations designed to drive traffic to it before it was more popular.

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0x1ch
31 minutes ago
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UGC Highlander and the countless CS pug servers show otherwise, to some extent.
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t-writescode
2 hours ago
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How did it work in the early Steam (CS 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, CS:S) and GameSpy days?
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organsnyder
2 hours ago
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I think a big part of it is the stakes were just lower. There wasn't money and careers in it the same way there is with egaming now.
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ndriscoll
1 hour ago
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Are the stakes not still zero? Aren't like 99.9% of players not at all competitive in any meaningful sense basically by definition? Like if Counter-Strike has 1M active players, and you are in the 99.9%-ile, you are still only in the top 1,000. Do people watch the rank 1000 players? Are they making a career out of it? What fraction of the player-base thinks they are actually competitive vs. is just playing a game?
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bee_rider
1 hour ago
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I actually think a big part of this anti-cheat push is just developers wanting their players to think something real is at stake. Yes we put a ton of effort into protecting your very important Elo score from hackers so you confidently sink hours into improving it.

If they would just let the cheaters win their way up the ranks, they could have their own little cheater lobbies and we wouldn’t have to deal with them.

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ndriscoll
17 minutes ago
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Right, this is also my suspicion. It's all ultimately a way to psychologically manipulate people into buying more microtransactions. It's then important to always point out how silly and obvious the whole thing is. It's like if your local sports organization at the park insisted on drug testing everyone so they can try to convince you your beer league volleyball game is actually very serious and you should buy Air Jordans or fancy shorts to up your game. These people are a joke.
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AJ007
1 hour ago
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The problem is the reverse of what is being argued here. The stakes are high because of how much money these companies are making off of DLCs/in-app purchases. The game operator thus has an incentive to ensure that high value customers can't be banned by third parties. Instead of just being banned, the player is suspended 24 hours or something, and then they come back.
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bee_rider
1 hour ago
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I think it’s streaming in particular. With actual competitive games, like, tournaments and whatnot, the players are well known and they are competing in actual tournaments, right? The play is broadcast and all the players have their professional game-player reputation at stake, so there’s a strong incentive to not cheat (it is a very cushy and high-skill job with almost no transferable skills, so like, better not get booted). It is just that streamers might bump into cheating and that’s annoying for their viewers I guess.

When people play in these “competitive” matchmaking queues, it is more like a pickup game. If somebody shows up to a pickup baseball game with a corked bat, they are just kind of a loser and it isn’t a big deal, right? There’s no actual reward for hitting “platinum rank” or whatever in most games, other than skins or something. Nothing real is on the line.

IMO: we really should just have let these people cheat their way out of the normal matchmaking population. Smurfing is a much bigger problem. I don’t actually care if the guy dominating the match with some 60:0 kill-death-ratio is cheating or a semi-pro beating up on casuals, haha.

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LMYahooTFY
1 hour ago
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More distributed and more manual. More administrative overhead. More localized culture we all get nostalgic for. Much more effort to play against peer competitors.

It's the same phenomenon you see in many sectors.

Access is democratized and the friction/barrier to play is dramatically lowered/free, and the localization is diluted or non existent and just a monoculture.

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babypuncher
27 minutes ago
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PunkBuster and later VAC were commonplace. Anti-cheat middleware is not new by any stretch.
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thomastjeffery
2 hours ago
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People are still playing Battlefield 4 (2013) on user-hosted servers. Right now.

The only way that "around the world" can be relevant is ping, and the best way to manage ping is by sorting a list of servers by ping.

Cheating is an arms race that no one needs to participate in. Moderation was a perfectly good workaround until major game studios decided to monopolize server hosting.

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LMYahooTFY
1 hour ago
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What, 2000 players? 5000?

Moderating that game is multiple orders of magnitude off of major titles.

No Battlefield game is even in the top 100 of esports earnings.

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Kuinox
4 hours ago
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Did you played in this era ?

- If you were too good on some server, you'd get banned.

- If the admin doesn't know well cheating, he could tolerate something that was obvious cheating.

- Cheaters could just change server often.

It used to be easy to just ban peoples yes, and it was as easy to switch servers.

Plus on most competitive game today, you have custom lobbies, which do exactly what you want, and there is a reason why only a minority of players uses it.

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OkayPhysicist
3 hours ago
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Custom lobbies don't meet the same need. That's for playing with your friends, or at least, people you vet yourself. Community servers are a sub-community in of themselves: people tend to play on the same servers on a regular basis, allowing you to build rapport, community norms, and have substantially more direct moderation than company-run servers.

Yes, sometimes you run into power-tripping moderators. That comes with the territory of having moderators. But the upsides, of being embedded in a usefully-sized community, and having nearly constant human moderation, not to mention the whole "stop killing games" of it all, far outweigh the need to shop around a bit for a good server.

I think the ideal middle ground is something like Squad's server system: The developers offer a contract to server owners, establishing basic standards that must be met to be a recommended server. Rules forbidding the crazy bigotry that milsims tend to attract, minimum server specs to ensure smooth gameplay, an effective appeals process. If a server meets those requirements, and signs the agreement to keep meeting those standards, they get put on a "recommended" server list (which 90%+ of the playerbase exclusively use). Other servers go on the "custom" server list, which can be modded, or spun up for certain events, or whatever.

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Kuinox
3 hours ago
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two or three months ago, I played a game that did exactly what you proposed, V-Rising, it have a server browser, I played a week with friend on a busy server. Then the server was gone for two weeks. When it was back, mosts of the bases were gone due to inactivity.

That's the kind of things that were common too, maybe you forgot about it.

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OkayPhysicist
1 hour ago
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All the multiplayer games I play today are either community server based, or I exclusively interact with private lobbies.

My negative experiences with community servers represent a pretty short list. Sometimes servers die, but games die sometimes, too. That's obviously only an issue with persistent-state games, like Minecraft, but it's unfortunate when it happens. Can't say it was so frequent that it impacted my enjoyment of any games as a whole.

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hamdingers
3 hours ago
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All true, but of course you're missing the player agency component that renders those issues moot. If any of the above happens, you can simply find another server.

Private games (now called "custom lobbies") were available back then too, they're not equivalent to a public server browser.

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Kuinox
3 hours ago
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They are functionally equivalent for the player. The problem with player hosted servers is that it was very hard to get a fair and balanced competitive match, where now it's extremely common with matchmaking on servers hosted by the game company.
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hparadiz
3 hours ago
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Back then at least you could do something about it. Now if there's an obvious cheater you just kinda sit there and take your L, and ask people to make reports.
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Kuinox
3 hours ago
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> Back then at least you could do something about it.

Back then, the most common option taken was leaving the server to find another one.

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hamdingers
32 minutes ago
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Something you are explicitly punished for in modern matchmaking. Unless you want to be downranked or even temp banned you must suffer the cheater.
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hparadiz
2 hours ago
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This is drudging up some formative memories. In the counter-strike / TF2 communities you'd have servers that would grant vote kick rights with more playtime and some of those regulars would then apply for mod rights. It worked quite well.
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Kuinox
2 hours ago
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It still doesn't solve the unfair votekick problem. People with more play time, doesn't have necessarly the abilities nor tools to judge if someone is cheating. Take a look at the trackmania community, some cheaters are caught years later, because they played it smart. Some cheating can't only be observed by looking at the statistics, or hard proof of cheating being ran.
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hparadiz
1 hour ago
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It's a pub. It doesn't matter as long as it's not obvious aim bots and people are having fun. Besides when it's a 32 player instant respawn death match server you have like 200-300 regulars. That type of cheating was never an issue in those because the servers were always full during peak times and everyone kinda knows each other.
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brendoelfrendo
3 hours ago
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If you were playing on a server you owned or for which you had ban permissions, you could do something about it. Otherwise, you had to hope that an admin was online to ban the cheater. If no one was around to take action, your option was to... sit there, take your L, and ask people to make reports (to the admins). You had the option to hop around between servers until you found one that didn't have cheaters, but is that all that different from just quitting back to matchmaking and hoping you find a match without cheaters?

Edit to add: I'm not disputing that kernel-level anticheat is bad; I agree that it is. I don't think it helps to try and hearken back to a golden age of PC gaming that didn't really exist. Maybe it was easier for server admins to manage because player populations were smaller back then, but that's about all that would have made things "better."

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hamdingers
2 hours ago
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You were not helpless if the admin wasn't on, votekick has existed for 25+ years.

Believe it or not us old folks who played during this time had ways to address these issues.

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brendoelfrendo
2 hours ago
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Votekick still exists in modern games, too.
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hamdingers
3 hours ago
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They are not functionally equivalent, unless there are games I'm not familiar with where custom lobbies are published in a list for strangers to join. Normally a custom lobby implies invite only.

Not everyone is interested in a "fair and balanced competitive match" where you're guaranteed to win no more and no less than 50% of the time. I actually find that intolerably boring.

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Kuinox
3 hours ago
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> They are not functionally equivalent, unless there are games I'm not familiar with where custom lobbies are published in a list for strangers to join.

Lots of the mosts played competitive games have that, or third party websites/discords that have links to custom lobbies.

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hamdingers
17 minutes ago
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Being able to make friends off-platform and then play with them is obviously not what we're talking about.

I have to conclude you're unfamiliar with what multiplayer gaming was like when servers were the norm.

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josefx
1 hour ago
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> The problem with player hosted servers is that it was very hard to get a fair and balanced competitive match

Playing against overwhelming odds has its own kind of charm. I once spend days just sabotaging the top players on some gun game servers, only wining myself once or twice. Games against friends with various fun handicaps and flat out abuse of any knowledge you could gain from playing against the same people repeatedly - what good is a hidding spot when everyone knows you will be there 50% of the time.

"Fair and balanced" games against completely random people are just missing something for me.

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bee_rider
1 hour ago
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This is something matchmaking games totally miss which keeps them from being truly competitive in the way sports or old games were: a competitive community. You need other players with known identities to compare yourself against on a consistent basis.

Of course, classic competitive institutions had problems as well (“he’s very competitive” is not necessarily a nice description of a person!), but they seemed more enjoyable that this matchmaking stuff.

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babypuncher
26 minutes ago
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I hated wasting a whole half hour server hopping until I found one that didn't suck
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dmayle
2 hours ago
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The only actual problem with cheating is leaderboards.

When you have accurate matchmaking, you will be playing against other players of a similar skill level. If you we're playing in single-player mode, it wouldn't bother you that some of the players were better than others.

Whether the person you're playing against is as good as you because they have aim assist, while you have a 17g mouse and twitch reflexes shouldn't matter. You're both playing at equivalent skill levels.

The only reason it matters to anyone is that they want their skills to be recognized as better than someone else's. Take down the leaderboards, and bring back the fun.

I say, let the people cheat.

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varnaud
5 minutes ago
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I play online FPS with friends for fun. I don't care about leaderboards, but I know people that do and don't want to take them away from them.

You can't have accurate matchmaking and allow cheating. People cheat for a variety of reasons, at lot of cheaters are just online bullies that enjoy tormenting other players. In a low ELO lobbies, you would have cheaters that have top tier aim activated only if they lose too much, making the experience very inconsistent.

Top tier ELO would revolve around on how the server handle peeker advantage and which cheater as the fastest cheating software. It's an interesting technical challenge, but not a fun game. As soon as a non cheating player is in view of a cheating player, the non cheating player dies. That doesn't make for a fun game mechanic.

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nitwit005
18 minutes ago
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There was plenty of cheating when there were no global leaderboards. People will happily do things just to ruin other people's day.
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drdaeman
1 hour ago
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Not just single player. Even in competitive multiplayer a lot of the complaints about "cheating" are actually complaints about matchmaking, and "cheating" is a giant red herring (griefing is a different matter, of course, that gets lumped into the umbrella term of "cheating"). But trying to explain this is typically like pissing against the wind, because people already believe in the existing status quo (no matter how irrational it is) and no one wants to change their beliefs unless it obviously and immediately short-term benefits them.
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cortesoft
1 hour ago
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This is fine if you are low level, because the cheaters will be too good to play in the low level games.

If you are in the higher skill levels, you might end up playing too many cheaters who are impossible to beat. If the cheat lets you be better than the best human players, the best human player will end up just playing cheaters.

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babypuncher
14 minutes ago
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> If you are in the higher skill levels, you might end up playing too many cheaters who are impossible to beat.

It's almost kind of worse than this. If you are in higher skill levels, you end up getting matched with cheaters who lack the same fundamental understanding of the game that you do and make up for it with raw mechanical skill conferred by cheats.

So you get players who don't understand things like positioning, target priority, or team composition, which makes them un-fun to play with, while the aimbots and wallhacks make them un-fun to play against.

And as a skilled player, you are much better equipped to identify genuine cheaters in your games. Whereas in low skill levels cheaters may appear almost indistinguishable from players with real talent so long as they aren't flat out ragehacking with the aimbot or autotrigger.

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Tadpole9181
1 hour ago
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Comments like this just make me upset to the point I can't cohere an appropriate argument. It's so out-of-touch with reality and completely ignores the core problem that I have to believe you're just fucking with us.

No, it is not fun to play against smurf accounts using hacks. They aren't doing it for the leaderboards, they actively downrank themselves to play against worse players!

And no, it's not fun to play against cheaters who are so bad at situational awareness their rank is still low, but who instantly headshot you in any tense 1v1 and ruin your experience.

And no, I actually do care that people are cheating in multiplayer games because it's not fair. Since when do we reward immoral fuckwits who can't or won't get better at the game?

Why don't we just start letting basketball players kick each other and baseball players tar their hands while we're at it. Who cares if the sanctity of the sport or competition is ruined - we're a community of apathetic hacks.

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DiogenesKynikos
50 minutes ago
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At least in the world of chess (which has the OG matchmaking system, ELO), cheating is genuinely a problem.

The problem is that it doesn't matter how good you are. You will not beat a computer. Ever. Playing against someone who is using a computer is just completely meaningless. Without cheating control, cheaters would dominate the upper echelons of the ELO ladder, and good players would constantly be running into them.

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babypuncher
18 minutes ago
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You're saying it's not a problem when cheaters to completely ruin the experience for top-10% players
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cortesoft
1 hour ago
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There are still plenty of games that use community hosted servers for multiplayer. I play some of them (Rust, for example).

First, cheating is absolutely still an issue in Rust. Sure, server admins can kick them out... once they have been discovered, verified by an admin, and kicked. The damage is usually done by then, and that is the best case scenario... often, the admins aren't available at that moment, because they are normal people who are not online all the time.

Plus, this means you have to search and find a good server to play on. That isn't always easy, and limits your ability to find a good game.

Second, lots of games I love to play don't make sense in the 'server hosted by a community member' model.

I love playing sports games... Madden, FIFA (now called FC), NBA2k, etc. The best way to play those games is often 1on1 against someone who is close to your skill level. It isn't fun to play against people way worse or way better than you.

The only way to do this in a way that lets me get a good game whenever I want to play is to have some sort of matchmaking system, that keeps track of how good i am and finds players who are about the same skill level. There is no way this would work on user hosted servers, and even if it did, why would a user hosted server be better at solving this problem than a company hosted one? You need a TON of players to be able to do good skill based matchmaking 24 hours a day.

I have been playing multiplayer online games for over 30 years. I started playing when I had to call my friend on the phone, tell him to tell his family not to answer the next call because it was my modem calling, and then hope to god my sister didn't pick up the phone during our game and break the connection. We had to develop a code to signal if I was actually trying to call him to talk about an issue; if I called and hung up immediately it meant I was voice calling and the next call he should answer with the phone.

I have played every iteration of multiplayer gaming. I played Warcraft II when you had to pay $20 to subscribe to Kali to use their virtual IPX service. I played local Counterstrike games at the college dorms on the local network (which was not even a switched network!) I run Minecraft servers for my kids on my local network. I have written multiplayer games for both peer-to-peer and server based multiplayer.

No, you can't recreate the modern convenience and pleasure of company provided matchmaking by going back to community hosted servers.

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AJ007
1 hour ago
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Interesting thing I noticed trying to play old versions of Call of Duty a year or two ago -- the oldest ones which supported hosted servers, there are still players, but once they switched to matchmaking either no one is playing or its so tiny you never get connected.
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babypuncher
29 minutes ago
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Community-run servers weren't a magic bullet, and they had a lot of other problems that modern matchmaking systems solve more effectively.
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vel0city
3 hours ago
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> It used to be pretty easy to just ban people from playing

I ran servers for a lot of games. It was often difficult to ban people from playing. First off, someone with ban permissions would have to actually be online at the time. So often nothing would happen at all, you'd just have to leave and find a different server. Second, one could get banned, often just change their IP or use a different CD key or whatever other identifier the game used, and hop back on with a new identity.

Meanwhile discoverability of similarly skilled matches were a challenge, along with actually playing with a group of friends against new people. Its not some perfect panacea, there are a lot of things people disliked about picking private servers to play on.

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sofixa
4 hours ago
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> caused by the game companies that took away the standard method of playing multiplayer -- players running their own servers

Let's be real, what % people among those who game are interested in running their own game server? I'm definitely one of them, and one of my earliest tech memories was setting up a CS 1.6 game server for a bunch of classmates (and being unable to play myself because the computer had nowhere near enough capacity for both the server and the actual game running at the same time); but it's a minuscule percentage.

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hamdingers
3 hours ago
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This isn't a problem because any given server can support hundreds or thousands of weekly players, so only 0.1% of your playerbase needs to run a server.

We had this, it worked, for years. I'm baffled by all the posters saying it won't, because it did.

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rererereferred
4 hours ago
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There are games I play were one of the players' machines becomes the server. In some it's transparent to them, you just join their world or lobby, in others it's explicit and you even have to input the host's IP to enter.

Standalone servers you need to run separately and care for are much more rare.

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afavour
4 hours ago
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I never ran a server back in the day but I still benefitted from community run servers where decisions about banning were done by volunteer admins. These days with centralized servers it has to be automated.
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galbar
4 hours ago
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For a casual CS server the ratio could perfectly be 1:50 and that'd be fine. That's how it used to be with, i.e., CS:Source.

Then, there are companies that ran a bunch of them, which lowered the ratio even further.

IMO, it's more effective, cheaper and easier to mod smaller forums (be it web communities or game server communities) than to do for huge ones.

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hparadiz
3 hours ago
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We used to run these servers on machines that today aren't even 20% of the M1 in my MacBook air.
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squigz
4 hours ago
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> Let's be real, what % people among those who game are interested in running their own game server?

Let's put it differently: What % of people among those who program are interested in maintaining open source software?

A very low %, and yet it's a thriving ecosystem.

To bring it back to gaming: How many people who game are interested in modding, or creating models/maps/etc? Again, a very low %, and yet...

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keyringlight
3 hours ago
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Running/renting hardware and connectivity and administrating a service and development are slightly different.
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squigz
1 hour ago
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It's not the 2000s anymore - you don't have to run/rent "hardware" and worry about "connectivity" and whatnot. For most games that offer dedicated servers, there are services with easy to use panels with fancy colored buttons and everything.

As another example: how about hosting a website?

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thomastjeffery
2 hours ago
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Absolutely!

The entire narrative of "cheating" is a giant misdirect. People don't actually care about cheating, they care about fun. If a player is making the game less fun, it does not matter how.

The real problem is that ~10 years ago major game studios decided to monopolize server hosting. This means that the responsibility of moderation is now in their hands. The only way this problem can ever be resolved is by giving the authority to moderate servers back to players. Until then, the responsibility to moderate will be unmet, no matter how fascist and authoritarian game studios become. Fascism cannot guarantee fun!

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rowanG077
1 hour ago
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Not really true. For years you had both co-existing. Anti-cheat and people running their own servers where they could ban people.
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hombre_fatal
4 hours ago
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Even if custom game servers were a preferable experience, which I would argue against, it doesn't really do anything for this problem.

By the time you have to wait for someone to cheat just to ban a single user, the disruption is already done. Your 4v4 45min game is already disrupted and everyone has already wasted their time now that you have to kick someone.

It's kind of like thinking you can forgo anti-bot measures because your website's users can just report the bots: by the time it's your users' problem, you've ruined the experience for everyone except the bots.

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chownie
4 hours ago
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I would much rather my 45 minute game be disrupted and the user booted permanently by moderators VS every game be disrupted for months while the developers try and work out which parts of my privacy they can invade to maybe hopefully boot the cheaters.
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hombre_fatal
4 hours ago
[-]
What about everyone else?
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chownie
3 hours ago
[-]
Re-read the comment but with generosity in your heart? I don't think you need it explained.
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isgb
4 hours ago
[-]
Problem is that requires moderators, that get paid, with money.
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stronglikedan
4 hours ago
[-]
more likely volunteers when they're running their own servers
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Kuinox
4 hours ago
[-]
volunteers which aren't necessarly pro player and cant distinguish good players from smart cheaters.
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chownie
3 hours ago
[-]
The developers aren't pro players either, the cutting edge for anti-cheats still require that non-cheaters play with cheaters for months. I would not be shocked if simple vote-kick outperforms every anti-cheat on the market.
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Kuinox
3 hours ago
[-]
A simple vote-kick will kick, will kick so much players that doesn't cheat. It's already used to troll in games like CS.
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Ygg2
4 hours ago
[-]
Not really. In mostly player-run lobbies, one of the players would kick any found cheaters. It's not exacts science, but it's what people did.
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ratelimitsteve
4 hours ago
[-]
counterpoint: my 45 min 4v4 game gets terminally disrupted if I can't run the game on my device
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hombre_fatal
4 hours ago
[-]
Sure, but that's a trade-off everyone already enjoying the game might be fine with if it means a better experience. That's how bad cheating is.
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squigz
3 hours ago
[-]
> Sure, but that's a trade-off everyone already enjoying the game might be fine with if it means a better experience.

Does it mean a better experience though? This isn't like, a theoretical GP is talking about. We don't have to imagine if

> That's how bad cheating is.

Seems like the answer is no?

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squigz
4 hours ago
[-]
> By the time you have to wait for someone to cheat just to ban a single user, the disruption is already done. Your 4v4 45min game is already disrupted and everyone has already wasted their time now that you have to kick someone.

The difference is there is usually an existing level of trust between people playing on a private server. Usually your group would know ahead of time if someone is going to potentially be a problem.

Furthermore, even with public dedicated servers, there's a psychological aspect to it - it's no longer just a random matchmaking server; you're almost walking into someone's house. Many people feel a lot more pressure not to misbehave

Then there's the fact that you don't have to wait many days for your cheating report to hopefully be acted on. Our game got interrupted? Well, that sucks, but we can just ban that guy and go again and we likely won't have to worry that our very next game will also contain a cheater

Finally: these defences always have an implicit assumption with it: that the horribly pervasive anti-cheats actually... you know, work. They do, to a rather limited extent, but cheaters are still rampant, so what's the point?

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hombre_fatal
4 hours ago
[-]
If I already have a preformed 4v4, then I don't need anticheat.

The question is what to do about the rest of the time for everyone else. Shopping around private servers and dealing with individual server admin quirks is a regression from matchmaking UX that Starcraft had in the late 90s or that Halo 2 had in the early 2000s.

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squigz
4 hours ago
[-]
Why not both?

If you wanna matchmake, great, go ahead.

If you want to run a private server, you can do that too.

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Buttons840
4 hours ago
[-]
The only multiplayer game I currently play is Beyond All Reason (a RTS game).

It's a free and open-source game, so creating a cheat client would be especially easy. But I've never encountered cheating.

I think there's a few reasons for this:

1) The playerbase is small and there is no auto-matchmaking, just a traditional list of servers. This results in the same group of people always playing together. People don't want to cheat when they're playing with acquaintances they see frequently.

2) Spectators are allowed in every game. The top-ranked games usually have several spectators.

You might think this would result in even more cheating, but in practice the spectators would prefer to watch a sneak attacks succeed, because it's funny. It's boring to be whispering the enemy secrets to you buddy on a private Discord, it's more fun to watch your buddy die in a surprising and funny way.

Also, the spectators can spot if a player does something that suspiciously well timed or lucky. The spectators see all, so they have the information needed to spot suspicious behavior.

3) Official servers create an official record of what happened in every game. The entire community has access to all the recordings. If someone thinks cheating is happening they can link to the official game recording on Reddit (or whatever) and everyone can see what happened.

4) An active moderator team reviews every report of cheating. There are official moderators that do the banning, but also volunteer moderators which can watch the recordings and create a trusted written account of what happened; this makes the official moderators have an easier job.

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ThrowawayR2
4 hours ago
[-]
Seems more likely that the cause is that RTS isn't a popular genre among gamers and Beyond All Reason is obscure[1] even among RTSes. There's no fame or money to make it worth investing in cheating.

[1] Among the general public, not RTS aficionados. Which is unfortunate; Total Annihilation and its spiritual descendants like BAR deserve more love.

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officeplant
11 minutes ago
[-]
Even as an RTS player I've never heard of it, but I have learned recently that I've missed out on an entire niche scene based off of TA. Been playing RTS's since 1994ish and only recently bought TA to go back and play through it. Never owned it back in the day.
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Buttons840
3 hours ago
[-]
People have been banned for cheating, so cheats exist.
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LMYahooTFY
3 hours ago
[-]
I don't think they're saying cheating doesn't exist for the game, they're saying the popularity/incentive is too low to attract many cheaters compared to esports games.
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AuthAuth
11 minutes ago
[-]
Its unfair to compare other games to BAR. BAR is to good
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bflesch
5 hours ago
[-]
As most of you know, these anti-cheat systems are functionally equivalent to rootkits. There is zero visibility into how these privileges are used for targeted attacks. Due to geographic location of the large game companies this has a geopolitical angle. Fingerprinting of devices and the networks they are in provides a lot of metadata that is most definitely fed into their intelligence apparatus.
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pmarreck
5 hours ago
[-]
I remember trying to install Valorant for the first time, and its ridiculously invasive anticheat kernel mod (or whatever it's called) gave me my first blue (or was it red??) screen I'd seen on Windows in years.

Immediately uninstalled it and haven't ever played Valorant to this day. Fuck that crap, if your community is so toxic that you need a rootkit to keep cheaters at bay, then maybe it's more of a community problem than a technological one. And yes, if this means that you have to block all of China in order to do so, then that is still a community problem. Put your rootkits on your Chinese servers, separate them out, and let the cheaters fight amongst themselves.

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philipallstar
3 hours ago
[-]
> if your community is so toxic that

It's nothing to do with a toxic community.

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xeonmc
3 hours ago
[-]
Is it any coincidence that such state is from the same company behind League of Legends?
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az09mugen
4 hours ago
[-]
Yes, and more than that, the kernel-level-anticheats are unable to spot someone using a Cronus ( hardware aim assist among other stuff [0] ).

I'm never going to play again online on any FPS because that whole incoherent bubble of crap disgusts me.

The multiplayer games community is toxic, and players are focused on success whatever the cost is. And I don't even want to touch the question of match making with a 10-foot-pole. Local, self-hosted or in small community is the best.

[0] https://cronus.shop/

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officeplant
8 minutes ago
[-]
>Local, self-hosted or in small community is the best.

It always makes me happy to fire up Quake via Darkplaces or even ioQuake3 and still see servers up and people playing.

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surajrmal
5 hours ago
[-]
Unpopular opinion, but we would be better off with a single open trusted implementation of anti cheat (aka drm) which can attest whatever requirements are desired by the game is met. The only real problem is that it would likely be limited to approved kernel images and someone would need to own that validation and signing infrastructure, but you could imagine having multiple trusted entities have this role.
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bflesch
4 hours ago
[-]
Kernel anticheat is not really effective because it can be circumvented on the hardware level, for example using direct memory access with a second computer and screen to show the hidden game state.

Cheating is a meat space problem and there is no technical solution to it. Thats why in tournaments there are referees standing behind the players. Ultimately it comes down to checking if metrics like reaction speed are humanly possible, but a rootkit is not really needed for that.

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bangaladore
1 hour ago
[-]
> Kernel anticheat is not really effective because it can be circumvented on the hardware level, for example using direct memory access with a second computer and screen to show the hidden game state.

Incorrect. DMA (direct memory access) is and can be prevented [1] and detected [2].

[1] https://www.faceit.com/en/news/faceit-rollout-of-tpm-secure-...

[2] https://community.osr.com/t/detecting-pcie-dma-based-cheatin...

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maccard
3 hours ago
[-]
> Cheating is a meat space problem and there is no technical solution to it

Cheating is an arms race - the number of people who are willing to run a second computer with DMA connected to a single machine is vastly smaller than the number of people who are wiling to download a dodgy file from the internet and run it.

> Ultimately it comes down to checking if metrics like reaction speed are humanly possible, but a rootkit is not really needed for that.

If it was that easy, cheating would be a solved problem. An awful lot of play is "I know the reload time is 0.75s, so they're going to appear when they've reloaded" - that's way beyond human reaction time. And that's at "mid level" play - at gold/sliver levels in league of legends knowing cooldowns is considered base knowledge. At higher levels of play, _all_ of your players are statistical outliers.

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cortesoft
1 hour ago
[-]
This is theoretically possible, but I don't think most cheaters would have the equipment or skill to do this. Cheating is only rampant in games where people can just buy and download cheats... if it requires a lot of skill and hardware, it won't be a big issue.
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von_lohengramm
4 hours ago
[-]
Imagine wanting tivoization. Horrifying.
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999900000999
6 hours ago
[-]
I'm ordering a new laptop to work on LLM stuff, and while I thought about jumping through the hoops to get Linux running with secure boot...

I had a realization, it's a cold day in hell when someone else is going to tell me what I can run on my computer. All the latest multiplayer games are now requiring secure boot on Win11 as well

I'm actually wary of all these anti-cheats, they're literally hyperinvasive maleware.

I don't need gaming that much.

And if I do I'll stream it with Gamepass or another cloud service.

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bigstrat2003
3 hours ago
[-]
What irritates me is when games that don't even benefit from anti-cheat require it. Helldivers 2, for example. My dudes, it's a co-op game. My teammates and I are all on the same side! Moreover, the vast majority of people are gonna play with their friends, not randoms. And if your friend is using a cheat and it bothers you, you just ask him to stop. There's no reason for a game like Helldivers 2 to require anti-cheat at all, let alone the rootkit variety. And yet...
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cortesoft
1 hour ago
[-]
The best games with anti-cheat have an option to launch without using it, but just restrict what game types you can play. Playing with friends should be allowed without anti-cheat.
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isk517
2 hours ago
[-]
Elden Ring: Nightreign is also a co-op PvE game that has anti-cheating in it. The most common way people cheat is by fudging then items equipped to their character that slightly alter their stats and abilities. Since the game is rouge-like and all of your character information and equipment you can assign before entering the game is handled locally then all it takes is editing your save file which the game and server have no way of (or makes no effort to) detect.

Also, after a brief period, all of the cheaters disappeared because just repeatedly winning a PvE game get boring.

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kipchak
2 hours ago
[-]
Helldivers might have more to do with preventing people from easily farming super credits versus game integrity.
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i80and
5 hours ago
[-]
I'm a pretty prolific gamer, but at the start of the year I finally kicked Windows to the curb.

It's been fine. Surprisingly few games I'm interested in to begin with have anticheat that doesn't work on Linux, and it's comforting to know games aren't allowed to just shove trash into kernel space at will.

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ecshafer
5 hours ago
[-]
If you play older games, Linux ironically works better than windows now for stability. The only game I have seen any issues with (note I don't really play multiplayer much) is the Harry Potter game, but proton eventually fixed that.
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999900000999
3 hours ago
[-]
The thing is I still need Windows for music production.

Linux will never compete here.

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jszymborski
3 hours ago
[-]
They said this about gaming too... all it takes is Valve-esque sponsor
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iknowstuff
2 hours ago
[-]
It takes a stable ABI and a single target for apps. Don’t expect music production to ever show up for gnu/linux. Maybe Android
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amanaplanacanal
2 hours ago
[-]
Bitwig is available for Linux, but I don't know what the limitations are.
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999900000999
54 minutes ago
[-]
A lot of VSTS aren't going to work even with tricks like WINE.

They often have complicated auth systems, etc.

I don't really want to learn a new DAW.

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grayhatter
5 hours ago
[-]
> I don't need gaming that much.

Counter point: gaming is fun, and indy games are worth investing in. Voting with your wallet works better if you vote for behavior that's not user hostile, rather than only abstaining.

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weberer
5 hours ago
[-]
Just to be clear, the anti-cheat systems that support Linux run at the user level and don't require secure boot. Those kernel-level and secure boot restrictions only apply to a handful of games, and they all explicitly block Linux users anyway. For example, I've been playing Arc Raiders a lot recently in Linux, and the user-level EAC works just fine.
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theoldgreybeard
4 hours ago
[-]
The user-level cheats are extremely bad. For example, Elden Ring uses EZ Anti-Cheat and it works on linux and that game is infested with PvP cheaters.
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theoldgreybeard
5 hours ago
[-]
Lots of games don't need invasive anti-cheat. You can just play those. There are literally too many awesome games on the market to ever be without something great to play.
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moltopoco
4 hours ago
[-]
Many people have one or more Discord groups where someone will say "let's play Valorant tonight" and then everyone just installs it. Linux is fantastic for local gaming on a handheld or in the living room, not so much when your non-Linux friends pick the game.
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jmuguy
5 hours ago
[-]
All I really do on my Windows system is play games, and because of that I don't mind whatever draconian crap that's required to keep cheaters in check. It sucks, but not sure of a better solution.
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gordonfish
4 hours ago
[-]
I honestly don't understand why any game is even checking if secure boot is enabled.

If anything it's for the OS to care about that, not individual programs. Afaik, secure boot doesn't (on it's own) prevent the running of arbitrary software, so how is it actually preventing cheating?

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Mindwipe
4 hours ago
[-]
It does mean that a signed OS image is running, so demonstrates that the kernel was unaltered at start-up.

It also demonstrates further levels of driver signing robustness.

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krelian
1 hour ago
[-]
I'm not really familiar with Secure Boot too much. Researching suggests that users can add their own keys so they are trusted by UEFI. Won't this resolve for linux users that must have secure boot on?
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Q6T46nT668w6i3m
5 hours ago
[-]
I was in a similar situation and ended up buying a PS5. It ended up being exactly what I wanted.
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MrDrMcCoy
4 hours ago
[-]
How's the mouse and keyboard story on PlayStation? The few shooters I play would greatly hinder me if I were stuck on a gamepad.
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gishh
5 hours ago
[-]
Just get a ps5. I went through the same adventure.
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Gracana
5 hours ago
[-]
I did that for years and I recommend it as well. Pure linux desktop + console for games is a nice combo and a good separation of functions.

Of course... at this point I am back to having a PC with a beastly GPU and I boot Windows for games and CAD. It is hard to resist high framerate 4k gaming once it becomes a possibility, so now I need to figure out the secure boot problem for the occasional game that requires it.

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limagnolia
5 hours ago
[-]
A PS5 is an even more locked down system! There are vastly more games, many I already own, that work on Linux.
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bigstrat2003
3 hours ago
[-]
I don't personally have a problem with a system being locked down in general. I have a problem with my computer being locked down, or getting rootkits installed on it. So for me at least, playing those games on console is a good solution.
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RestartKernel
2 hours ago
[-]
That's the seperation of concerns that drives me to a Switch alongside my computer. Though I'm by no means a "serious" gamer by most people's standards.
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em3rgent0rdr
5 hours ago
[-]
I'd much rather invest one powerful machine that cand do work and games instead of two that take up extra space and generate more e-waste.
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ReptileMan
4 hours ago
[-]
I still play on my ps2 ... because consoles are linked closely to the games of that generation I would guess that they are tech that are on relative terms least discarded
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__alexs
9 hours ago
[-]
It's funny that game makers make a fuss about anti-cheat not working on Linux but then publish Switch versions of their games. That platform has almost zero security and is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer these days.
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hiccuphippo
6 hours ago
[-]
If people cheat in the switch, they can blame Nintendo. If people cheat in PC, they can blame the anticheat. Without anticheat, they have to take the blame.
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archerx
3 hours ago
[-]
I still blame the devs of the games.
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j-bos
8 hours ago
[-]
This. Even kernel level anti-c-spyware can't stop a cheap vision model hokked to a mouse, see youtube for examples from simple auto input up to full on elctromuscular stimulation.
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embedding-shape
6 hours ago
[-]
Based on the latest report from Dice/EA/BF6, seems indeed like they're detecting hardware-based cheating as well: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/2807960/view/4972134...

Although who knows, they might be outright lying about that just to scare cheaters, but I tend to default to assuming what they're saying is more or less true.

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orbital-decay
5 hours ago
[-]
Looking at the accessibility alternatives they suggest, they were probably detecting XIM users, not the much nastier PC stuff like DMA cards.
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archerx
3 hours ago
[-]
They can’t detect me splitting my hdmi output, feeding one of them to a separate machine with a vision model to detect what needs to be detected and the same machine moving and clicking the mouse. People are already doing this.
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archerx
3 hours ago
[-]
Yes the channel “Basically homeless” has a few variations on this. Using electrodes to move your muscles to more practical a bot that moves your mouse pad for you to give you perfect aim. No anti cheat can detect that because there is nothing to detect.
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Levitz
7 hours ago
[-]
It's a numbers issue. How often do people encounter cheaters while playing Switch games online?
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hollandheese
2 hours ago
[-]
Try playing Pokémon Legends Z-A multiplayer.
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__alexs
6 hours ago
[-]
Often because of cross play.
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bakugo
6 hours ago
[-]
> is commonly emulated with cheats even in multiplayer

There is no Switch emulator that can play online on official servers.

The only way you can cheat online is by hacking a real console, but the percentage of people who do it is quite small.

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__alexs
5 hours ago
[-]
AIUI you can do it, but you risk the Switch you got the data from being banned.
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shmerl
5 hours ago
[-]
Client side anti cheats is a lazy excuse why they don't want to spend on server side anti cheats anyway.
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SirMaster
5 hours ago
[-]
How do you stop a client-side wallhack with server side anti-cheat?
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nevon
4 hours ago
[-]
Don't send the client information about players they should not be able to see based on their current position.
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xeonmc
3 hours ago
[-]
And under such system, how do you stop people from abusing latency-compensation to make their character appear out of thin air on the opponent’s perspective by fake-juking a corner to trick the netcode into not sending the initial trajectory of your peeks?
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vablings
3 hours ago
[-]
Fortnite had this same issue when BR was first released. It was promptly fixed after cheaters started abusing it by adding more stringent checks.
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maccard
1 hour ago
[-]
Fortnite has a fairly invasive root kit level anti cheat too, don’t forget.
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vablings
1 minute ago
[-]
The invasive kernel root kit came months after they fixed the netcode abuses.
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shmerl
3 hours ago
[-]
Improve your server AI to catch weird behavior. Client side approach with this malware idea is simply unacceptable.
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LanceH
5 hours ago
[-]
run your own servers, an admin watches them track people behind walls, player gets banned, move on. Oh, they took away player run servers...
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iknowstuff
2 hours ago
[-]
Not scalable
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Mindwipe
4 hours ago
[-]
The Switch has good security as long as you can check the OS version robustly.

Any Switch game using an anti-cheat solution that can't trivially detect that it's being emulated is... not using a very good anti-cheat solution.

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tonyhart7
7 hours ago
[-]
what multiplayer (esports) game that can run on switch ????

fornite???? its not gonna be main playerbase

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amarant
6 hours ago
[-]
From the top of my head: Rocket league, Splatoon.

I'm sure there are others, but those are the 2 I play

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prmoustache
6 hours ago
[-]
mario karts
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lawn
5 hours ago
[-]
Super Smash Bros.
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Q6T46nT668w6i3m
5 hours ago
[-]
Madden and NBA2K
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Almondsetat
6 hours ago
[-]
The thing is: the Switch has a clear ToS, and if the user breaks it they can get into trouble. OTOH, if you release your game in Linux... that's it
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riddley
6 hours ago
[-]
The games have ToS though right?
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Almondsetat
6 hours ago
[-]
The Switch is a closed proprietary platform, so Nintendo can give some guarantees, and if the user does something at the Switch level, the responsibility of legal action will be on Nintendo, saving up headaches to the publisher.
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dotancohen
5 hours ago
[-]
Beaches of a Terms of Service agreement have no inherent legal penalties.

Some actions which breach ToS may be illegal, but that has nothing to do with them being outlined in a ToS.

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lawn
5 hours ago
[-]
Bad excuse, they could rely on Steam ToS for example.
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surajrmal
5 hours ago
[-]
Creating a steam account is cheap. Needing to buy a new switch is not.
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kamranjon
5 hours ago
[-]
At this point - you would think that cheaters could be detected on the server side by either training a model to flag abnormal behavior or do some type of statistics on the movement patterns over time - is a client-side anti-cheat really required?
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wavemode
5 hours ago
[-]
Many forms of cheating revolve around modding the game locally so that certain textures can be seen through walls, so you always know where opponents are. So you aren't breaking any laws of physics, you are just able to make much better tactical decisions.

The obvious solution would be, just don't send data to the player's client about enemies that are behind walls. But this is a surprisingly hard thing to engineer in realtime games without breaking the player experience (see: https://technology.riotgames.com/news/demolishing-wallhacks-..., and then notice that even in the final video wallhacks are still possible, they're just more delayed).

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Quimoniz
4 hours ago
[-]
> So you aren't breaking any laws of physics, you are just able to make much better tactical decisions.

With respect I'd like to disagree on this subtly. A lot of games have the client send their cursor position at relatively frequent updates/packages (i.e. sub-second). So the server knows pretty precisely in which direction and to which object a player is looking.

This in turn can be readily used upon when using wall-hacks, as most players, who use wall-hacks tend to almost faithfully follow objects behind walls with their cursor, which good moderators can usually spot within a few seconds, when reviewing such footage (source: I was involved in recognizing Wall-Hacks in Minecraft, where players would replace textures, to easily find and mine diamonds underground).

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squigz
4 hours ago
[-]
You very, very quickly learn not to look like you use wall-hacks.
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vablings
3 hours ago
[-]
The biggest heuristic is that you suddenly get much more consistent. Valorant uses this to ramp up how intrusive its kernel anticheat becomes and often forcing you to turn on more intrusive features to continue playing the game
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Lalabadie
5 hours ago
[-]
That's because the 2025 definition of "anti-cheat" leans heavily towards preventing players from enjoying client-side content that's locked behind microtransactions (for example, EA's new Skate game).
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lwansbrough
2 hours ago
[-]
What you’ll find is that a subset of players define a behaviour and now you have to prove that that behaviour is cheating. For most behaviours that could be cheating, it will overlap with skilled players.

Examples would be pre-aiming corners and >99th percentile reaction time.

You need a false positive rate well below 1%.

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maccard
1 hour ago
[-]
It’s estimated that cod warzone has 45 million players - a 0.1% false positive rate at that player count is 45000 people. That’s a _lot_. It needs to be orders of magnitude less than that.
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pmarreck
5 hours ago
[-]
I don't believe there's a foolproof way to do this.

It's basically the usual cat-and-mouse game of an arms race.

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brendoelfrendo
4 hours ago
[-]
This is done, and generally doesn't work as well. Your model will catch people using yesterday's cheats, but the cat-and-mouse nature of cheating means that people will adapt. Funnily enough, cheaters are also training models to play games so that they can evade cheat detection. The kernel-level anticheats are designed to prevent the game from running if they detect you are running any software that interacts with the game. Much simpler for the developer, and circumventing it usually requires running your cheats on a second machine which a) limits what you can do and b) has a higher barrier to entry.
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rasz
1 hour ago
[-]
oh but that would mean more computation on the server, cant have that!
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drnick1
9 hours ago
[-]
I used to dual boot, but I that there are so many games on Linux, I just don't buy or play incompatible games. So EA lost a BF6 sale for being assholes.
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teroshan
6 hours ago
[-]
Same situation here. If it were last year, I may have caved. But at this point I don't want to bother with dual booting and losing my Linux context as I do so.

Instead I'm playing ARC Raiders which works perfectly on Linux and I don't regret a thing.

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hastily3114
10 hours ago
[-]
Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.
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soloridindan
9 hours ago
[-]
I think the moment you accept data from the client as truth you've lost the battle already, everything else is just damage control. Loads of games have realized this and kept checking game rules on the serverside and reveal data on a need-to-know basis. This makes it nearly impossible for cheats to be made because anything you know you should know, and everythin you act is parsed by the backend according to rules already present
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jsheard
9 hours ago
[-]
Some kinds of cheating can be mitigated that way, but it can't really stop cheats which just play the game more optimally than the user is able to, using the same inputs and outputs that a legit player would use. Aim assistance in shooters, automatic parries in fighting games, economy-breaking levels of automation in MMOs, and so on.

There's also practical limits to how much data you can filter out in complex 3D games, both due to performance constraints, and because culling information too perfectly can cause things to pop into existence too late under real-world network latency. The effectiveness of ESP cheats can be reduced, but not eliminated in practice.

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nkrisc
9 hours ago
[-]
You could probably detect those kinds of cheats heuristically on the server. There are limits to human ability. It’ll take more time to catch the cheaters, but I’m sure it’s possible.

This player is posting 30 auctions per second. Bot.

This player is turning at a rate of 500 radians per second to make perfect headshots. Bot.

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pityJuke
8 hours ago
[-]
this is already running in production for Counter-Strike since 2018 [0][1].

to be honest, it isn’t particularly good - all serious CS2 games operate on a third party provider with a kernel-level anti-cheat. also, the cs2 update banned people for spinning their mouse too fast [2].

[0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/5u2xly/eli...

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTiP0zKF9bc

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwU_ejDNC0s

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cortesoft
1 hour ago
[-]
The cheat could just be tuned to play at the level of the best humans.
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Hikikomori
8 hours ago
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Aimbots will just add delay and variance then. Guess its a bit fairer but if they're better than shroud level then it's still not great.
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jsheard
8 hours ago
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Which they do already, because slamming all of the aimbot settings to max is a fast track to getting mass reported and escalated to human review, which will immediately see what's going on. Any cheater with an ounce of desire to preserve their account is going to try and maintain the pretense that they're just very skilled, not impossibly skilled.
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soloridindan
9 hours ago
[-]
I think anything that relies on reflex alone is flawed design. You can design around this, by for example in Dota2 it doesen't matter how fast you click an entity, because the turnrate of your character is limited, so a person clicking reasonably fast and a bot clicking in 0.01ms both arrive there at the same time. Precision also doesn't matter, because a player can click the icon of the enemy instead of trying to match the pixels on screen. MMO scripts that use information already given by the game just seem like the MMO should invest in UX instead of trying to ban people for using the tools the game already gives them.
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Levitz
7 hours ago
[-]
>for example in Dota2 it doesen't matter how fast you click an entity, because the turnrate of your character is limited, so a person clicking reasonably fast and a bot clicking in 0.01ms both arrive there at the same time. Precision also doesn't matter, because a player can click the icon of the enemy instead of trying to match the pixels on screen.

Even with turnrate, reaction time is very relevant. Reaction time allows you to silence enemies midcast, or to pop a shield, or a BKB, or some other instant measure. Turnrate doesn't mean reaction time doesn't matter, it means the direction you are facing matters.

As for precision, yes it does matter, ask any Phoenix player who gets hexed mid-flight.

People cheat in Dota in these very terms, it's absurd to argue it doesn't matter.

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vkou
9 hours ago
[-]
Unless DOTA2 is running at a ~3 tick rate (Which it's not), even taking account processing delays and action batching, a bot will always have faster reaction times than an actual player. It will also never misclick.

This problem is magnified in a shooter game, which would be unplayable with that kind of batching, but where a cheater with an aimbot is actually impossible for a legitimate player to beat.

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soloridindan
9 hours ago
[-]
After you click, the character will begin to turn, which can take several hundred ms. A delta of couple ms compared to the time it takes to turn is completely negligible and even an inch better positioning of a character, or having a character with items or stats that makes them turn faster (because picks are asymmetric) will make several magnitudes more of an impact.

If your game allows your sights to just teleport on people's heads and take that as the winning condition then that just sounds like bad design, there's no reason to allow infinitely fast movement and omitting strategy even from a shooter

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komali2
9 hours ago
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> If your game allows your sights to just teleport on people's heads and take that as the winning condition then that just sounds like bad design, there's no reason to allow infinitely fast movement and omitting strategy even from a shooter

This is interesting, because I feel like the fundamental gameplay of an fps is players exposing themselves to each other's field of view, and then trying to click the other's head first. Skill is a measure of map knowledge (so you can try to expose yourself to a possible field of view but not where the enemy is actually looking at that moment) and speed of clicking head.

How would you design FPSs to remove this "bad game design?"

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DJBunnies
8 hours ago
[-]
> How would you design FPSs to remove this "bad game design?"

I think we just need to accept that bots will always be better at reaction based KPIs & abusing "knowing" too much game state, we should just remove those conditions.

1) Move most of the application logic to the server, the client should be a fairly dumb terminal that knows how to render and accept inputs, and only receives the state that it needs. No more spying issues.

2) Just give everybody auto aim & immediate/auto controlled firing, etc. No more aim bot issues.

3) Improve the quality of gameplay around the types of interactions which bots are bad at. Decision making, strategy, communication, execution, adaptation.

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vanviegen
7 hours ago
[-]
Sure, feel free to make an entirely different type of game that's not as vulnerable to cheating.

But some people just want to play competitive fps shooters. And currently obnoxious anticheat toolkits are the way to provide that, unfortunately.

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nerdsniper
7 hours ago
[-]
> No more spying issues.

This isn't possible. And this explains why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFw4F2AyaP4

We can only minimize the amount of extra information given to the client, not eliminate it. And at high enough skill levels, even 1-2ms of extra information will always be actionable, even by humans (not just bots).

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Hikikomori
5 hours ago
[-]
>just give everyone aimbots, no more aimbots issues
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Hikikomori
8 hours ago
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>If your game allows your sights to just teleport on people's heads and take that as the winning condition then that just sounds like bad design, there's no reason to allow infinitely fast movement and omitting strategy even from a shooter

From the servers perspective you always kinda do that for fast movements as the client send rate usually isn't more than 60hz.

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bluecalm
8 hours ago
[-]
There is rampant cheating in online chess and poker as well, you know? You can have an opinion about what constitutes a better game for humans: should it be about making better decisions, arriving at them faster or being fast and precise with your mouse but the reality is bots/assistance can make you unplayable in all of those domains.
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brettermeier
9 hours ago
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However, this only solves the cheat problem to a minimal extent. There is a lot of important data that players should not be directly aware of, but which is important for the game. For example, it is important for calculating sounds to know where enemies are nearby, even though you cannot see them, which makes wall hacks possible, etc.
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soloridindan
9 hours ago
[-]
Sounds are core to shooters and very much within the expected abilities of the players to hear them. If anything, I'd incorporate this kind of indicator in the game itself, allowing for deaf people to "hear" footsteps as well
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bakugo
6 hours ago
[-]
> I'd incorporate this kind of indicator in the game itself, allowing for deaf people to "hear" footsteps as well

That's just discount wallhacks. Fortnite has it and you're basically forced to use it even if you have no hearing issues, because it provides a massive advantage.

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Thaxll
6 hours ago
[-]
This is not how it works, most games that take cheating seriously already have a gameserver where most of the gameplay logic happen.

Doing everything server side does prevent cheating.

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maccard
1 hour ago
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Eventually you have to send data to the client and they have to send you back what they did. Assuming you’re running a game server with 240hz updates, on a 120hz monitor with no buffering, on a low latency connection in the same location to your data center, the absolute bare minimum amount of latency you can plan for is about 15ms from server to on screen, and back again) - 8 ms each way, 4ms for the server tick, and 5ms each way for networking. Now move 100 km from the server, or add in double buffering, and you’re closer to 50-60ms. That means at any given time you know there’s a deviance of between 0 and 50ms between your state and the clients - and a client can and will exploit that.
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bangaladore
1 hour ago
[-]
> Doing everything server side does prevent cheating.

No. Server side only protects against some types of cheats, such as telling the server that your bullet in an FPS is actually a grenade.

It cannot prevent snapping your aim to a target on screen.

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vkou
9 hours ago
[-]
That only solves half of the cheating problem - illegal inputs from clients.

The other half is much harder to solve. For a simple example - my client knows that there is an enemy player around a corner. It knows exactly where that player is, because that player is walking, and making noise. A cheats could allow the cheater to see his opponent's player's model through the wall.

For a more blatant example, consider cheats in a first-person shooter that just snap your aim to the nearest enemy's head. This involves zero violation of the game's logic, and also makes the game completely unplayable for everyone in a lobby.

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soloridindan
9 hours ago
[-]
You already know where an enemy is if you hear them behind the wall, you don't need a cheat to tell you that there is noise coming from other side of the wall. The server also doesen't need to tell you they are behind it if they're sneaking. A game that allows zero home-in time sounds like a flaw in the game and something solvable on the serverside.

You can replace a playermodel with wider "sound coming from around here" if you want to make it even harder for a cheat to pinpoint a sound

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ChocolateGod
9 hours ago
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> The server also doesen't need to tell you they are behind it if they're sneaking

This requires the server to calculate line of sight checks for every player, which is costly, requires loading the entire geometry into the server and would be horribly prone to latency. Then you're looking at potential performance problems on the client due to only knowing about a player the second its in view and having to stream the assets to the GPU, which if don't happen in time for the frame you'll experience as hitching.

> You already know where an enemy is if you hear them behind the wall

Yes but this requires using your brain rather than just seeing them straight up through a wall.

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Ukv
6 hours ago
[-]
I don't think those performance concerns are really much of an issue with any sensible implementation. You'd do line of sight checks against simplified geometry first to handle the vast majority of cases, and you'd load character models/textures in advance (game/match startup) rather than only when they first appear on screen.

One non-trivial part seems to me that if you walk around a corner you don't want to wait 50ms (your ping) for the server to send enemy locations you can now see. Ideally every tick the server would be sending all enemies that you could potentially see before the next tick depending on what your movement packets that it hasn't yet received turn out to be. Wouldn't entirely eliminate advantage from cheating (e.g: a cheater walking around a corner could still see enemies up to a tick/~15ms in advance) but would hopefully make this form of cheating significantly less worthwhile.

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ChocolateGod
4 hours ago
[-]
You have to do line of sight checks based on the players entire FOV, which requires the server to know this in realtime with little latency.

This is unworkable for fast paced games.

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maccard
1 hour ago
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This is unworkable for even slow paced games.
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Hikikomori
6 hours ago
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Cs2 and Valorant does this, but start sending positions around corners before they're visible.
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ChocolateGod
44 minutes ago
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Basic distance checking is doable, but any kind of "they're ducking behind a 2 feet wall in front of me" is going to be horrible to detect server side.
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vablings
5 hours ago
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CS2 does not do Vischeck culling anymore. It was ditched with the move to source 2. All players are globally visible to everyone
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__alexs
9 hours ago
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I feel like you've only played 1 genre of video game or something.
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vkou
9 hours ago
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> You already know where an enemy is if you hear them behind the wall,

You know they are somewhere behind the wall, you don't know which exact angle they are behind the wall, because headphones and our ears don't work with that degree of accuracy.

The cheater can just swing the corner with his cursor already pre-positioned exactly on his target. Between peeker's advantage (inherent to any online game with latency) and human reaction time, there's not a lot you can do to fight that.

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jsheard
9 hours ago
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A trusted entity (probably Valve) could provide a locked down distro where kernel integrity is enforced through secure boot and TPM attestation, but that would mean giving up some control over your own system. There's no guarantee that anything client-side is impossible to bypass of course, but the goal would be to more or less match what Windows offers, which isn't perfect either.
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ChocolateGod
9 hours ago
[-]
> giving up some control over your own system

There could simply be a developer option that disables these integrity checks but subsequently breaks online games that rely on them. Valve could also offer a module that allows signed user-space binaries access to kernel space, which would be an improvement over Windows offers in that anti-cheat wouldn't need to live in the kernel.

I think that's a fine trade off.

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NekkoDroid
5 hours ago
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You don't even need a developer mode. I was looking into making my own image based distro/system which has its bootchain entirely verified and I intend to make any modifications via system extentions[1], which IIRC also get measured aswell (or was at least planned somewhere). To be fair, this is purely additive or overlaying, so no removing of files, at best changing. This all would be signed using Secure boot and after the fact using dm-verity.

Secure Boot in theory isn't even necessary, only TPM2. Secure boot only ensure that you are actually booting into a binary that you expect to boot in this case, so if your binary is actually different it would result in different PCR values in the TPM indicating something is wrong.

Sadly a lot of end user software (flatpak, ...) isn't packaged & signed in a way which would allow for full "only run software I allow by importing public keys" (read Linux IPE[2]), but what can you do, only your best I suppose...

[1]: https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-sys...

[2]: https://docs.kernel.org/admin-guide/LSM/ipe.html

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maccard
1 hour ago
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This is what a console is.
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CuriouslyC
6 hours ago
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You don't need a full distro, you can just run the game in a VM sandbox with trusted computing extensions alongside whatever distro you want. That breaks cheats that rely on network/memory inspection, you can still cheat using the raw pixel output to drive faked input, but I don't think the loop is closeable there.
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keyringlight
5 hours ago
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Has anyone produced a proof of concept for such a system, for gaming or otherwise?

Given that a certain amount of windows gamers have been having issues making sure their PCs complied with the config requirements for the latest COD/Battlefield, it would seem an even higher bar for a consumer targeted bit of software that needs to do more to be running securely (or add a different mode to your distro install and reboot to it), alongside the wider variety of distros/configs. Distros advertising themselves for gaming or getting people to migrate from windows are also trying to keep barriers to entry low or to appear simple.

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surajrmal
4 hours ago
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Running in a VM is not secure by itself. You need something similar to what Android is building via protected VMs.
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Mindwipe
3 hours ago
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Indeed running a VM is an exploiter's dream, unless the VM is essentially run by a hardware hypervisor (akin to Android's system).
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Mindwipe
3 hours ago
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That wouldn't be sufficient. You'd need a hardware component to verify the OS signature of the specific distro with a trusted (by the game company) asymmetric key, and that enforced driver signing.

Those things are all possible, but really the only entity that has the power to realistically do them is the OEM - Valve could do it for SteamOS, but only on it's own hardware.

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Hikikomori
8 hours ago
[-]
Could reboot into secure mode for these types of games.
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63stack
9 hours ago
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There is no way to make anticheat that can't be bypassed, regardless of OS. All of the anticheat games today have cheaters.
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360MustangScope
6 hours ago
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It doesn’t have to be 100%. The point is to make it inconvenient. The majority of people will not do it if it is inconvenient.

Thats the point to many things in life that you just make it more difficult and most people won’t be bothered to attempt to circumvent whatever it is.

There will still be circumventers but it is will be less than if you just said fuck it.

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zeta0134
6 hours ago
[-]
Sure. That also means it doesn't have to be kernel-level rootkits that fundamentally break the security model of my operating system and risk my bank account. Most people will be stopped by userland anticheat, right? It's inconvenient. So ... put it *there.*

And if someone does the kernel bypass thing, well, rely on server-side heuristics (which are imperfect, but also unknowable to the attacker) and you'll discourage enough of that with account bans.

Helpfully eSports players tend to have video captures of their gameplay, and most of these "undetectable" cheats are real obvious if you actually watch the footage. That catches most of the serious stuff at the upper level. It's why video verification has been a thing in the speedrunning scene for such a long time.

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trinix912
5 hours ago
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The problem with userland stuff is that it’s trivial to download and doubleclick an EXE (that acts as a fake anticheat or whatever).

Anyone can do that, but not anyone can simply “patch the kernel” and such.

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maccard
1 hour ago
[-]
> Anyone can do that, but not anyone can simply “patch the kernel” and such.

Sure they can - download this pre-patched ISO and boot it in QEMU. Now you have a modified kernel, _and_ you’re not running dodgy spyware on your PC.

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alex7734
1 hour ago
[-]
> Helpfully eSports players tend to have video captures of their gameplay, and most of these "undetectable" cheats are real obvious if you actually watch the footage. That catches most of the serious stuff at the upper level. It's why video verification has been a thing in the speedrunning scene for such a long time.

There's a subreddit called /r/vacsucks which is full of pro players blatantly cheating and getting away with it while the rest of the idiots think they're just good players.

Or, depending on your point of view, full of idiots flagging any player better than they are as cheating.

Aimbots can be "humanized" enough that any such determination becomes subjective.

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63stack
4 hours ago
[-]
Sure, and my point is that making it inconvenient for other people to cheat is a way too low bar for us to accept rootkits on our systems.
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mrob
8 hours ago
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Correct. E.g. you can aimbot by routing the video signal to a capture card on a separate computer and run image recognition software to generate mouse movements spoofed at the hardware level. The only way to reliably prevent cheating is with in-person tournaments played on hardware provided by the organizers.
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tgv
6 hours ago
[-]
As someone said about the lack of a Switch anti-cheat: it's a numbers game. If cheating is as easy as downloading a .exe for a few $$$, you're going to find cheaters everywhere. If it requires a complex, and/or fairly expensive setup, the number is going to be very low.

That's assuming there's no money in being a cheater.

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calgoo
8 hours ago
[-]
The best way is to just make private servers, so people can play with their friends and not have to worry about random players. This also solves the issue of people using.... language thats not acceptable in games.
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mcv
6 hours ago
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Reliable anticheat is serverside. Clientside anticheat sounds like a fool's errand to me. You need to control the client, so that means the user cannot be in control of their own computer, which is contrary to the idea of Linux.
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kimos
6 hours ago
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It works on Windows by essentially rooting the machine. MS holds control of a bunch of stuff because they hold the signing keys. It’s fundamentally incompatible with open source.
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tete
6 hours ago
[-]
And it still doesn't prevent cheating.
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SirMaster
5 hours ago
[-]
No, but it seems to vastly reduce it. Compare VAC2 to FACEIT on CS2 for example.
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vablings
4 hours ago
[-]
Comparing VAC2 (released in 2005) to FACEIT in 2025 is pretty dumb. There are still absolutely cheaters running rampant on FACEIT and FPL.

The real solution is to limit information sent to the client, make it harder for cheaters to have reliable solutions to get access to critical game information. ARC Raiders has Theia anti tamper (very poor performance) but right now the number of cheaters is minimal because the select few who are smart enough to break the anti-tamper are keeping quiet. See other examples; The Finals, Roblox (Byfron) and Overwatch

https://codedefender.io/sigbreaker/

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embedding-shape
6 hours ago
[-]
> It’s fundamentally incompatible with open source

Yeah, I mean why would they open source their anti-cheats, would defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?

Not sure why you bring up OSS here, it isn't relevant in the least, plenty of non-OSS runs on Linux even though Linux and more is OSS.

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trinix912
6 hours ago
[-]
Because with Windows, MS can put a list of trusted rootkit anticheats in the kernel and that cannot be changed (without having the source or breaking signatures when hex editing etc).

If Linux did the same, anyone could recompile the kernel with their fake anticheat’s signature. The fake anticheat would then present itself as real to the game. One could go as far as to rewrite the relevant syscall to falsely indicate to the game that the legitimate version is running.

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Mindwipe
3 hours ago
[-]
The OEM could control it in hardware and a secure part of the chipset could validate the OS integrity and sign the relevant key (which is what Apple does with SIP on a managed MacOS installation).
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tete
6 hours ago
[-]
Yes and no. I agree the only thing that can be reliable is server side.

However that means that anything based on reaction times and such is impossible to protect against (under reasonable conditions). At the end of the day you can always have a robot sitting at your desk. But there is steps to that. You can have something that highlights enemies, etc., you can have something that controls keyboard and mouse (maybe inside a VM, so you don't need hardware) and so on. You can reverse engineer packet encryption in a debugger (in most situations) and have something on the network messing with stuff and so on.

So in that regard, yes you can prevent everything you can prevent on the server, but you cannot prevent every sort of cheating on the server.

Everything that has rounds basically can be prevented (other than again a bot playing).

Everything that is complex to automate is better, but might just make cheating more "worthwhile".

The other thing you can do on the server is "dumb cheat" detection. Eg. the odds of someone being consistently as good at a game and such. Statistics like that is widespread and doesn't need any change on the client.

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JustFinishedBSG
7 hours ago
[-]
There’s just no way to stop cheating client side despite what devs love to think. But server side anti cheat is much harder and requires more work; it’s much simpler to just install spyware / rootkits on the client and call it a day.
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360MustangScope
6 hours ago
[-]
You can’t prevent wall hacks with only server side anti cheat. The client needs that data locally before the enemy is rendered on screen.

As mentioned in another comment, you can’t do this on the server without expensive checks for every single player that is always checking line of sight, because it’s not just your session running on a single server but multiple sessions.

And let’s say you did this, now you have a latency problem because most modern games to make them feel fluid has client side prediction with server reconciliation. This is what makes your modern games feel more responsive, if you put a constant server check there you have lost this.

No matter what people say online, it isn’t just move all of it to the server, there is data the client needs to know and can’t be spoonfed by the server.

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data-ottawa
6 hours ago
[-]
I think it’s an organization accountability issue.

Why would a company pay for anti cheat infrastructure when they can outsource it to some company and blame them if there are cheaters or upset users? Windows is the status quo too, so it’s very easy to point to everyone else when justifying your choice to the execs.

It would be great if steam deck+box start costing studios quantifiable amounts of money that can be used to justify fixing this instead of outsourcing and hand waving.

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Q6T46nT668w6i3m
5 hours ago
[-]
Yeah. It’s an erosion of rights that doesn’t solve the problem. You only need one cheater to make a game feel bad and DMA devices or pixel tracking can’t be stopped with these anti-cheats.
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Zak
9 hours ago
[-]
I think the most stringent types of Windows anti-cheat rely on remote attestation of the operating system. It's theoretically possible to design a Linux-based OS that supports such a capability, but the sort of people who choose Linux are unlikely to accept a third party having the final say over their computer.

I, for one am disappointed that anyone has accepted it. Once it's widespread, service providers can demand it, as we're seeing with mobile banking apps and game anticheat.

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Cu3PO42
9 hours ago
[-]
I also strongly dislike requiring remote attestation for any kind of software I want to run. But what I also dislike is cheaters in my online games and I genuinely do not have a better suggestion on what to do.

Personally, I run Windows purely for gaming and don't let it near any important data. For the latter, I boot into Linux with separately encrypted disks.

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amiga386
6 hours ago
[-]
>But what I also dislike is cheaters in my online games and I genuinely do not have a better suggestion on what to do.

You can't suggest "run online games as close-knit social groups, with social exclusion punishments for cheaters", which is how most online games used to be run. How old are you?

Game vendors used to be happy letting us host and run our own multiplayer games, until they realised they could get more money out of us -- "battle passes", microtransactions, ability to forcibly turn off multiplayer of older game when newer remake comes out -- and now they've made themselves a mandatory part of your online experience. You have to use their matchmaking and their servers. So now it's down to them to solve the problem of cheaters, enabled by their centralised matchmaking... and their only solution is remote attestation of your machine and yet more data collection?

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progbits
8 hours ago
[-]
I'm doing the same but I worry about windows compromise messing with the bootloader so then encrypted linux drive won't save me. Probably too paranoid though?
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Cu3PO42
8 hours ago
[-]
If you use secure boot and don't let your keys near Windows, you should be fine even if your Windows install is compromised. Unless you don't trust Microsoft themselves, in which case you'd need to re-enroll keys whenever switching operating systems, which is possible, but very tedious.
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RobotToaster
9 hours ago
[-]
Linux is resistant to rootkits, which is what these things are, and allows you to remove them, yes.

The correct solution is to verify everything server side, or actually have humans watch replays and ban cheaters, but both of those would reduce profits, so will obviously never happen.

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SkiFire13
8 hours ago
[-]
CSGO has actual humans watch replays to determine whether people were cheating, it's called overwatch. As can be seen, it doesn't actually stop cheating, at most it ensures that blatant ones are banned after the fact already happened.
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vablings
4 hours ago
[-]
CS2 Does not have overwatch anymore. VAC Live is completely AI and its a known fact that valve have a few buttons and sliders to play with to go through ban/boom cycles for cheaters to maximize impact
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Arainach
7 hours ago
[-]
You'll never see cheats banned in real time - that provides an enormous amount of data to cheat developers to allow them to quickly learn to evade your detection. Bans after the fact in large batches are the only sustainable way to go.
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jamesnorden
6 hours ago
[-]
You see cheaters banned in real time in Valorant, and the match is canceled, at least you used to.
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lan321
8 hours ago
[-]
IMO the real solution is back in community servers and votekicking.. It works on old games with no anticheat measures..

Maybe add some blatant detection for people teleporting and doing other absolutely impossible things serverside, but I don't understand why my team has to ruin their 'reputation' teamkilling a cheater so he doesn't ruin the game completely in most current games when the anticheat only catches free, old cheats. Just let people votekick and find someone else in the matchmaking queue who's willing to join halfway through.. Once votekicked enough times you can escalate to the AI (always indians) for automated (manual) review.

Also, you don't even have to ban cheaters. Just isolate them to play with each other. Some might find it fun and keep away from the normal players.

Edit: The 'issue' with community server manual review and votekick is you can be kicked for being cracked or garbage at the game legitimately, but TBH at this point you're ruining the fun of everyone else, so you should probably get in another server/match.. Also that premades can have majority, but that's easily solved by reducing their vote weight.

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Hikikomori
8 hours ago
[-]
I mean not really, as someone that had been votekicked from many games. Servers with admins does solve this, but has it's drawbacks. But you also cannot have the matchmaking type of game that are popular today.

Back in MW2 if you were the host you could kick players from your game using a cli tool that adjusted firewall rules.

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lan321
8 hours ago
[-]
For lobbied ones votekick is great as long as you remove majority vote from premades. So in a 5v5, a 3 man premade isn't able to kick any of the 2 randoms alone.

I remember the misuse of it but it was better than having your only option be teamkilling, which is now punished in all games via reputation systems.

The only thing I don't see this as a solution for are games like Planetside, with massive lobbies. I know they used to have automated detection and manual review by admins teleporting and flying around, usually invisible to sus players. Once we found a bug and got inside the map able to shoot through the ground and in like 15 minutes an admin came, asked us how we got in there and to get out nicely, before he gets us out forcefully :D

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theshrike79
8 hours ago
[-]
Server-authoritative games. Basically the client does stuff, gives the list of moves to the server along with a checksum/end result. Then the server runs the same commands on the same starting state and checks if it got the same result.

If a==b, then everything moves on as normal. If not, the client gets a synchronisation error and has to rewind back to the last known good state.

Completely unfeasible for anything real-time pretty much.

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0xC0ncord
7 hours ago
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Having done modding for some older shooter games built on the server-authoritative model, it's still possible to create a "pingless" experience, but it requires more calculations and compromises on client/server trust to make it work. For shooters specifically, you want the client to provide instant feedback when the gun fires, and ideally when they hit an enemy. You can achieve this by telling the server "I was at position A and shot my gun at position B and hit enemy Bob." The server will validate all of this before informing the client who fired and the client for "Bob" that Bob was killed. The compromise here is that the server must trust that the client isn't sending forged data, or the server must do additional computations to validate it.
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PetitPrince
6 hours ago
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An elaborated version of this idea is called "rollback" where you let the local client predict and execute the game state at time t+1 and will "roll back" the state of the game if it received another game state than the one predicted. Extremely popular and state of the art for 2D fighting games (most of the time the prediction is correct and it greatly reduce the perceived lag) , but probably harder a bit harder to do with 3D games.
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CuriouslyC
7 hours ago
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You can run a VM using trusted computing extensions for the game. If the VM encrypts traffic, that stops network level cheats. You can still fake inputs/outputs to the machine if you put the work in, but then you can also use a vision model and faked input with actual consoles, so that hole is never going to get patched.
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tete
6 hours ago
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You are looking completely wrong at this. There is no anti-cheat that cannot be bypassed. Period.

You can always run things in a VM, you can always replace your keyboard and mouse with a different device, you can always have your a camera instead of human eyes and have something that recognizes enemies.

Even cheat detection in the real physical world (sports, chess, etc.) is not a completely solved topic.

You can connect computers to other computers so other computers will always be able to control them.

The idea that any (currently realistic) cheat prevention is unbypassable is silly.

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embedding-shape
6 hours ago
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> The idea that any (currently realistic) cheat prevention is unbypassable is silly.

The idea that anti-cheats don't make sense because they don't catch 100% of the cheaters is what's silly, who believes that? Not even the people writing these anti-cheats believe catching 100% of them are possible, why are you under the assumption that others think that's possible?

If it removes 80% of the cheaters from the game, the experience goes from "Holy shit lets leave" to "Ok, bothersome, but fine", this is what they're reaching for, not some fantasy utopia that you seem to be under the impression is the target.

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saghm
4 hours ago
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I don't think the comment you're responding to is trying to claim that. They're responding to the parent comment asking if there's any way to actually make a Linux anti-cheat method that isn't bypassable and pointing out that this framing isn't really useful because there's no way to make one on any platform that's actually impossible to bypass. Their point isn't about whether it's useful or not to have imperfect anti-cheat but that there's nothing fundamental about Linux that changes the fact that the anti-cheat is going to be imperfect anywhere.
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krzyk
4 hours ago
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> the experience goes from "Holy shit lets leave" to "Ok, bothersome, but fine",

This is making those rootkit anitcheat mechanism work. If people will leave, cheaters will play only with cheaters - problem solved.

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embedding-shape
1 hour ago
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> If people will leave, cheaters will play only with cheaters - problem solved.

Yeah, but it's a bit like the ultimately solution to climate warming; getting rid of all humans on the planet. Fine, it solves the problem, but who is staying to enjoy the solution?

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kachapopopow
10 hours ago
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Linux explicitely allows you to do things that makes cheating *really* easy.

There is also complete lack of secure boot and a way to validate that your kernel hasn't been compromised.

I mean seriously, making a cheat for a proton supported game that no anticheat has any hopes of detecting are in 100 lines of a kmod driver and 1 console command: insmod.

On windows you at least need to use scuffed tools like KDU to bypass signature verification requirements and every anticheat can detect you with a simple physical memory scan.

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rcxdude
9 hours ago
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Linux supports secure boot just fine, it's just happy (correctly, IMO) to give the keys to the user and not the developer.
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ChocolateGod
9 hours ago
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Unfortunately right now SteamOS does not support secure boot or measured boot.
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kachapopopow
7 hours ago
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yah my bad: vendor defined secure boot*
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kalaksi
9 hours ago
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> There is also complete lack of secure boot

That's not true, though?

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kachapopopow
7 hours ago
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well lack of secure boot is bad wording, lack of vendor defined secure boot.
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theknarf
5 hours ago
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I mean kernel level anti-cheat doesn't really work on Windows either, its just security theater.
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surajrmal
4 hours ago
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Based on what data do you draw that conclusion? The fact that cheaters can still exist isn't an indictment that it doesn't ever work. Have you ab tested a game with an without anti cheat?
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droolboy
9 hours ago
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The only game I miss when I moved to Linux was League of Legends. Everything else pretty much works. I get that it’s not worth it for them to deal with more potential cheating, but it’s a bummer.
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asmor
9 hours ago
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The worst thing about League was that Riot added it retroactively after years of effort to patch Wine to work with League's weird quirky code. It was the only game that I always remember having a custom Wine build in Lutris even as far back as the early 2010s.

It also would be completely unnecessary if they fixed their servers.

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Jhsto
7 hours ago
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Cheats aside, are there any competitive games that include Uber-like rating system? Meaning that you'd need to provide feedback whether you'd play with your opponents/teammates again after a game.
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GCUMstlyHarmls
6 hours ago
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Overwatch (1) had something like that. Not sure if Overwatch (2) still has it, or how it functions now.

In higher ELO, people would target good players with "avoid player"^1, effectively soft-banning those people from match making because the pool was small enough. They would still get put in matches eventually but their queues would blow out a lot.

From memory it did not have an explicit "match me with this person" button, but you could thumbs up players in the post-match podium as well as endorse them which may have soft-factored into matching you with them again.

\1 I think it was called this. It was a general "bad attitude" marker, not a "bad team mate" or "bad opponent" marker.

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NekkoDroid
4 hours ago
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Overwatch (1 and 2) had/have an avoid system, but it only avoids as teammate. Overwatch 1 use to at the very beginning have a system to avoid a player as a whole and they wouldn't be matched in your game at all, but that was remove really early on, as it is easily abusable against good player (I don't want them on the enemy team, they are too good so just get rid of them entirely) and there was a report system anyway for other kinda bad stuff.

Then there is just the endorsement system, which is just a level from 1-5 and you can endorse people you liked playing with. It doesn't really do much in matchmaking but you can't do certain things if you are below a certain level (I forgot what all it was but you can't make (public?) custom games if you are too low and I think text and voice chat could also get disabled if you are too low).

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pynappo
4 hours ago
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Overwatch 2 has a simplified endorsement system. It's just an optional thumbs up instead of endorsement for 1 of 3 reasons (roughly something like sportsmanship, good teammate, or good leader).

The avoid system is now more flexible. You have 3 pin slots for people you never really want to see on your team again, plus 12(?) regular avoid slots to avoid people for a week at a time like usual. In situations where too many avoid conflicts occur and the matchmaker struggles to create a match (e.g. high ELO), it will start to ignore people's avoid slots in order of (last regular avoid > first regular avoid > pin slots), i think.

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silvanocerza
7 hours ago
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Dota 2 comes to mind, they have the commend system. If I remember correctly they added something like this to CS: GO too.
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super256
6 hours ago
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Pretty sure the commendation system in CS is just for looks, as it can be easily gamed.
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Insanity
7 hours ago
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Yes to some extent, I believe “The Finals” asked to rate how each match went in earlier seasons. But that stopped now that the game is more mature and feeling well balanced.

Cod MW2019 would occasionally ask, but once every X game IIRC.

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kreco
7 hours ago
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The idea of someone rating me, or rating someone else makes me anxious.

I'm not sure it would be better than just reporting people with undesired behavior.

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gilrain
6 hours ago
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> The idea of someone rating me, or rating someone else makes me anxious.

But not enough to avoid, as you’re here.

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Insanity
6 hours ago
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I think it’s more anonymized like “did you enjoy the game with this team (1-5)”
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Rucadi
7 hours ago
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Smite used to do that, but long time since I played it.
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jillesvangurp
3 hours ago
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It will be interesting to see how this evolves. It used to be that game developers could safely ignore Linux. But with a growing number of Steam OS, Steam Deck, and Linux + Steam users gaming, it's going to get increasingly more painful in terms of revenue to be telling those users "our game only works on Windows" and just miss out on the revenue and deal with the angry users, forums full of users complaining the game doesn't work, etc.

It might only be a few percent of overall users. But a few percent of a billion $ is a couple of tens of millions. That's a steep price to pay for anti-cheat code.

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hamdingers
3 hours ago
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Most game devs can continue to ignore linux and trust that proton will work it out.

It's only the highly competitive online games that have this issue. While they make up a lot of playtime, they're worked on by a tiny minority of developers.

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pjmlp
3 hours ago
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They are still ignoring Linux, hence why Valve is using Proton, the validation they failed to convince studios to care, studios that happen to target systems like Android NDK, or use platform agnostic engines.
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cornichon622
3 hours ago
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I don't understand why multiplayer games don't run more on the server. If the server runs the game, then sends to client only what it needs to display the game and play sounds, the client doesn't have more information than necessary and a whole class of cheats is eliminated. There is no need for a client to know where an enemy player is if the player won't be shown on screen (wall hacks). I think World of Tanks runs this way, and I've never encountered much cheating on there.
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ttimebomb
3 hours ago
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Some do, but its much more expensive for game companies and adds latency to some elements. Its generally a much harder problem for first-person shooter games - an enemy might be hiding behind a wall but the game needs to know the position of that enemy anyway because the player might move around the corner and see that enemy before the server updates or their game client might need to play noise that enemy is making faintly even if they are far away.

Players of these games are sometimes running their games at high framerates like 240fps which is much higher than the tick rates of these games too.

Plus it doesn't solve all the possible cheats that are out there, as there are some like aim-hacks that don't need any server information to work.

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lwansbrough
3 hours ago
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Anti-cheat is a necessity for an enjoyable game experience. If you are a casual who doesn’t care about game integrity, you probably aren’t the target audience.

I don’t want any cheaters in my games. I don’t care if a rootkit is required. Riot has a kernel level anti-cheat and it’s _really_ good. It’s so good in fact that it deters most cheaters from even trying. This is the dream for anyone who wants fair games.

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cortesoft
1 hour ago
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I agree with you, but I think the best solution is just to let people run the game without anti-cheat, but they can only play with other people who also opt-out of anti cheat (or choose to allow themselves to be matched with people who opt-out).

Then people can choose to either accept they have to install a rootkit anti-cheat, or want to risk facing cheaters in return for not having to install the anti-cheat.

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nottorp
36 minutes ago
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> If you are a casual who doesn’t care about game integrity, you probably aren’t the target audience.

Friendly reminder. 90% of games are not competitive multiplayer and don't need any anti cheat to be enjoyable.

My main entertainment is video games and books (no TV) in equal proportions so I'm far from "casual". I play zero competitive multiplayer due to the "communities" being invariably toxic.

Last time I played something like that it was Starcraft 2 when it was new. Enjoyed being called a stupid noob when I won.

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stavros
10 hours ago
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Hm, most of these seem updated 3-4 years ago, is this list relevant any more?
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Zhyl
7 hours ago
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Do you have examples of where something isn't accurate? If something hasn't changed it doesn't need to be updated. As far as I'm aware the things that change are updated quickly, hence the list is relevant.
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stavros
6 hours ago
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No, I just assumed things would change a lot.
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phoronixrly
7 hours ago
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Thank you, I prefer my Linux without rootkits.
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givemeethekeys
9 hours ago
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Between Windows being so unbearably bloated and no way to make anti-cheat really work on Linux, it looks like the consoles win!
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asmor
9 hours ago
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Or you could miss out on like... 5 games. Competitive games on a controller would be a much larger trade off than dual booting to me.
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donatj
9 hours ago
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On Xbox at least Keyboard / Mouse support is decent. I played Fortnite and Minecraft this way for a while.

Personal preference, but I'd far rather have a separate device dedicated to gaming than my kernel hacked by anti cheat.

https://www.purexbox.com/guides/all-xbox-games-with-mouse-an...

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komali2
9 hours ago
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On my PC I can play basically every game ever made in all of human history, minus maybe 7 that use kernel level anti cheat, and a couple PS5 and PS4 exclusives.

Other than that I have emulation plus a steam library. I'll take that over a locked in console that can only play 2 generations of games any day!

Edit: I'm not sure why the person who replied to me asking about emulators was nuked, emulators are still legal everywhere as far as I know. Anyway tldr go check out emudeck's GitHub repo to see a good list of emulators for basically every platform.

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doener
9 hours ago
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No modding and higher prices of games on consoles though.
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MisterTea
4 hours ago
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But can it run Crysis? No. Not on Linux :-(

I actually really liked Crysis for its open maps where you can approach a goal using different tactics. It had a lot of flaws and I hated the alien ship along with everything after as it was way too linear. Though I really want to play it again but alas, no more Windows for me.

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ooterness
1 hour ago
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Actually, ProtonDB indicates Crysis runs just fine on Linux.

https://www.protondb.com/app/17300

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nicman23
2 hours ago
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nah thanks. i remember my vista install getting destroyed by securom
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wiz21c
9 hours ago
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It'd be nice to have the publisher of the games...
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Hikikomori
10 hours ago
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While some anti cheat supports Linux they're mostly useless as you can much more easily bypass them on Linux compared to windows. I guess enabling them for competitive games is one way to increase Linux users.
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nolroz
5 hours ago
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It's so disappointing that the halo master chief collection still doesn't support split screen. Nothing compared to the joy of playing halo with friends in the same room.
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tete
6 hours ago
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Well, that's just silly. Hook up a Raspberry Pi as your keyboard, mouse input and video output and all the anti-cheat fails. Same (largely) for VMs, same for many emulators.

And if nothing works you can always build a robot pushing mouse, buttons, etc.

Of course you can raise the bar, but if anything has been shown it's that cheating is not something that anyone has been able to prevent yet.

In many situations you can also interfere on the packet level. Of course maybe you need to extract some key, but in many situations that's not exactly hard. And then you can hook something into network.

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kimos
6 hours ago
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The cheating isn’t just about input speed or accuracy though. It’s about seeing around corners or having knowledge about other things in the game that you can’t see on the screen.
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short_sells_poo
6 hours ago
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They already do this. Including peripherals which appear as an actual mouse, but they are there only so that cheat software can take control of the input without modifying the game memory. There are cheats which run on a separate machine and access the game memory via a dedicated DMA card (which itself presents itself as an innocent piece of hardware). Note, this can still be detected either via detecting the DMA card itself, or eventually these shenanigans will be killed off by IOMMU.

Unfortunately, there are also plenty of offerings which do not touch the game memory or process at all, and work purely based on image recognition and these days they actually use AI that is trained on specific games. I have no idea how they plan to detect these. All the cheat needs is the video feed and the ability to provide input via mouse and keyboard, and as you say this is trivial to do in a way that is entirely undetectable.

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sylware
9 hours ago
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kernel anti-cheat are notoriously inefficient and are weaponized by hackers.
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super256
6 hours ago
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Are they? Cheats for games like Fortnite, CS (Faceit), Rust, LoL have become very expensive (100 USD per month are not unheard of) or require you to purchase special hardware.

And I have yet to come across an anti cheat driver of the big publishers (EAC, Faceit, Javelin, Vanguard) being exploited and allow access to r/w kernel memory. It is more likely that the driver of some hardware is being exploited for, rather than anti cheat drivers.

Personally, I only remember the ac driver of Capcom ever being exploited. Compare this to the dozen hardware/av drivers which were exploitable, like the Intel LAN utility driver, ASUS IOMap64, MSI NTIOLIB or that one Razer driver. Oh, and CPU-Z and the Avast Hypervisor driver were exploitable too and allowed r/w on kernel memory. These drivers are way more likely to be weaponized than ac drivers.

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vablings
4 hours ago
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The thousands of RGB drivers from the various manufacturers that are just copy+paste jobs on RWEverything is actually disgusting and Microsoft letting that just happen is a serious problem. Ah yes you added AES to your IOCTL very secure! I'd say the only reason that these drivers haven't been exploited is because of the insane bug bounties in place. There are also other big issues in games, see the whole hack with Apex Legends lmao
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tete
6 hours ago
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In still doesn't prevent a wide array of cheating.
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sylware
6 hours ago
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It is more a anti-(non-steamOS)-linux than anything else.
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