The "Mad Men" in 4K on HBO Max Debacle
168 points
by tosh
2 hours ago
| 12 comments
| fxrant.blogspot.com
| HN
alexpotato
1 hour ago
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A side story on the techniques for restoration:

I'm guessing about 10-15 years ago I was watching a documentary on the re-release of Ken Burns Civil War.

They were highlighting the digital tools they were using to restore and enhance the original film capture for new streaming services etc.

They showed one of the restorers using a fascinating tool where one window was a video feed of the original film's "first pass" to digital. One of the landscape scenes had a small smudge in the upper right hand corner so the restorer pauses the feed, goes back frame by frame and then was able to drag and drop the frame into another window where he used Photoshop like tools to fix everything and then drag and drop it back into the "feed". Seemed VERY efficient and shows how good tools can really accelerate a workflow.

I'm not sure if the above scene is in the below quick documentary but there are a lot of other cool "behind the scenes of restoration" moments: https://www.pbs.org/video/civil-war-restoring-civil-war/

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liampulles
1 hour ago
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Fun fact: The X-Files production team foresaw the coming of 16:9 home entertainment, so they made some effort (increasing with later seasons) to try and "protect" a 16:9 frame, which allowed for an unusually good 16:9 Blu-ray restoration. [https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7499/look-inside-the-files...]

I learned this from the older X-files DVDs, which have some unusually good special features.

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actionfromafar
55 minutes ago
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Not saying it had anything to do with X-files, but also when you shot something for TV but were not entirely sure if the capture would ever go to the movies, you protected the wide frame.

Also, if you shot a movie but wanted it to look good in TV later, you put the most important action somewhere in a 4:3.

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dmpk2k
55 minutes ago
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Similar with Babylon 5, although the CG has not aged as well.
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sgt
28 minutes ago
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I don't know, currently watching Babylon 5 Season 3 and I think the CG is pretty impressive. It's not high resolution or sharp, but the ray tracing is excellent. A lot of moving parts flying around everywhere with lighting and planets in the background.
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zehaeva
23 minutes ago
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What he's talking about is that the CGI in B5 was filmed in 4:3 and not in 16:9 like the rest of the show. When they did the "high res" releases they had to make the choice of doing everything in 16:9 or in 4:3.

In 4:3 it looks good and like the original airing show, in 16:9 any non-digital/composite shot looks freaking fantastic. But once you get to any digital or composite shot it takes a nose dive in quality.

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petee
48 minutes ago
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The first season or two you can definitely see the crew in the safety margins, sometimes the camera crane too
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rob74
1 hour ago
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Stories like this regularly make the rounds when movies or shows that the original creators put a lot of love and thought into are "remastered" on the cheap. The last one I saw was the story about the garish colors in digital versions of old Pixar movies - amongst others, they intentionally exaggerated green hues in the digital original to compensate for the transfer process to analog film stock which was less sensitive to green. When Disney transferred the movies to digital formats and streaming, they took the digital original 1:1, so the colors now look off (https://animationobsessive.substack.com/p/the-toy-story-you-...)
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parkersweb
1 hour ago
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Through work I once got into conversation with the guy who did the re-mastering into 96kHz of the ABBA back catalogue. Up until that point CD re-releases of their material was apparently all converted from the cassette masters where they'd massively exaggerated the HF to compensate for the fact that cassette had a notoriously terrible HF response...
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mapontosevenths
31 minutes ago
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A few years back I had the sudden realization that I'd upgraded all my video equipment to HD and then 4k, but hadn't really done anything with my audio. So I went out and got nice equipment (Nice DAC, Headphones, Speakers, Etc).

One of the first things I learned once I could hear music properly was that I had favorite "versions" of different albums. They truly are NOT created equally, but it's not something you can really appreciate on a crummy Bluetooth headset either. Once you can you really start to appreciate the work that folks like your friend do.

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danaris
6 minutes ago
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Part of the reason this one is news is that there's really zero excuse for it being done "on the cheap": HBO can afford the very best, and their reputation kiiiind of depends on it.
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actionfromafar
54 minutes ago
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So odd that they didn't slap a film emulation on top of that. Although maybe not any existing software emulates exactly the film stock they used, any film emulation would look more true than a 1:1.
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mapontosevenths
1 hour ago
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The did something similar to Buffy The Vampire Slayer when "upgrading" it to HD. It lost all/most of the color grading and was cropped to 16:9.

Some night scenes now take place during daytime and you can see booms and camera operators in many shots.

It never even got a blu ray release. The only way to watch it at home without egregious errors is still DVD as far as I know.

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phantasmish
1 hour ago
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Not just that, they seem to have also applied some weird auto-cropping that made “choices” no human doing the job would have, meaning that in some scenes characters who were meant to be in frame aren’t, then suddenly and surprisingly appear when there’s a cut to another angle (this is usually in group dialog scenes—like “oh that’s who they were talking to!”)
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liampulles
1 hour ago
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I have the PAL DVD release, and I have to say the color grading has never been great, although it obviously at least has the correct effects applied.
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binaryturtle
47 minutes ago
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The PAL release is already the bad copy (starting with season 4 I think). You already had odd stuff in view that wasn't supposed to be visible.

The only way to watch this show properly now is the 4:3 NTSC DVD release.

I think the recent streaming releases also have the music altered in many places. The show just got <bleep>ed up basically. It's a real shame.

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liampulles
28 minutes ago
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Hmm, I didn't notice any "odd stuff in view" when I watched it, so at least it wasn't obvious. I'll have to keep an eye out next time I watch
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h1fra
1 hour ago
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Great article, I really thought it was a recropping like friends (and many others). So weird that they just forgot about CGI.
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globular-toast
1 hour ago
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It's even weirder when you consider how big of a deal this was for Star Trek only a few years ago (well maybe more than a few...). You would have thought people in the business would know about this.
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afavour
1 hour ago
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Everyone is underpaid and overworked. All things considered the companies probably think it’s worth the trade off, they’ll just fix it and republish. Might even end up with more viewers in the end! How many people have learned that Mad Men is on HBO Max as a result of this?

Execs have less and less shame as the years go on. Pride in artistic endeavour? That’s not going to make the shareholders happy.

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gchamonlive
1 hour ago
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Also cuts down on QA costs, offloading the burden of finding and cataloguing issues to the user. Since this is a monopoly, as you can't have multiple vendors competing for the best 4k restoration, and you can't have multiple streaming services competing for quality, they don't consider brand impact with low quality products because that's meaningless in this case.
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embedding-shape
1 hour ago
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> You would have thought people in the business would know about this.

People in the business world seems to only know business, and that's the limit of what they care about. Place these people into the arts, and you quickly see how important it is to have at least a single ounce of care when you work on projects where you want some level of quality.

But I think HBO, Netflix and most TV/streaming services are run by business-people still, as they think it's a numbers game, not a arts game. Eventually someone will understand and take the world by storm, but seemingly not yet.

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ryandrake
29 minutes ago
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> People in the business world seems to only know business, and that's the limit of what they care about.

You’d think these people would go off and be executives at a ball bearing manufacturing company or something and leave the arts alone, but it never happens that way.

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lotsofpulp
30 minutes ago
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>But I think HBO, Netflix and most TV/streaming services are run by business-people still, as they think it's a numbers game, not a arts game. Eventually someone will understand and take the world by storm, but seemingly not yet.

Because they are businesses? Just because something is art doesn't mean expenses can be more than revenue.

There was an enormous increase in the supply of entertainment over the last 20 years, in the form of Youtube, TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, WhatsApp, HN, video games, etc. Demand stayed the same, maxed out at 24 hours per day. One should expect changes in quality and quantity and price in a market with drastically shifting supply and demand curves.

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code_for_monkey
23 minutes ago
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Dont criticize the billion dollar corporation >:(
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lotsofpulp
6 minutes ago
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I am not criticizing anyone. Just explaining the dynamics that led to the dramatic reduction in value of the legacy businesses that produced professional video content, and the inevitable repercussions.
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Plankaluel
12 minutes ago
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I think this is just another case of "over-optimization to make shareholders happy in the end ruins everything". I.e., the normal enshittification problem.

Pretty sure all of that does make financial sense: - Being able to write 4k will bring people in to re-watching/watching the show for the first time. - Redoing the CGI, etc., would have cost a lot of money. - Very few people will cancel their subscription or stop watching because of stuff like that - So in the end, no one cares

I.e., it makes financial sense to do the minimum possible. Sure, if this were a project you care about, if it were your company that you are also emotionally invested in and maybe proud of, etc., things might look different. But your actual customers are shareholders, which in the end are predominantly giant ETF brokers and pension funds, that don't care about anything else but what your stock price looks like and whether you are in the S&P500. They probably don't even know what your company is doing.

Sorry, rant over ;P

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thrdbndndn
1 hour ago
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Great article.

Can someone explain what was wrong with that _Friends_ screenshot? I can't tell.

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swores
1 hour ago
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They never intended to show anything to the right of the doorframe on TV, so there's a random sign on the wall and a big hole in the wall (which makes sense if you are a camera crew wanting to film a sitcom in the apartment, that doesn't make so much sense in the fictional world that anyone would have a big rectangle cut out of the wall between their apartment and the hallway).
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onionisafruit
26 minutes ago
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The “five card charlie” sign is part of the set that’s supposed to be on camera, but the hole in the sheetrock obviously isn’t.
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swores
3 minutes ago
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I might be wrong but I don't remember the original framing ever showing the sign, so I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that it was there ready for them to move in shot if they ever wanted it, but that as seen in this image it's not supposed to be on camera
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dboreham
44 minutes ago
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The apartment was a bunch of 2x4s and plywood in the middle of a big sound stage building on the Warner lot in Burbank. It's still there afaik.
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abanana
54 minutes ago
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This post explains it nicely, by showing the noticeboard they normally use to cover that camera hole (which looks like an unfinished window frame, missing its architrave): https://x.com/MattBaume/status/1661785600050233344
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i_am_proteus
1 hour ago
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There's a window-hole in what should be an exterior apartment wall facing a hallway. Right side of the screen.
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meindnoch
1 hour ago
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New York apartments rarely have holes in their walls opening to the hallway.
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albert_e
1 hour ago
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I think it is the open hole in the wall next to the door -- which no real apartment would have. I think that part was meant be cropped in the final frame, maybe?
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TechRemarker
1 hour ago
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haha. Take a look at the massive unfinished window into the hallway =).
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piva00
1 hour ago
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There's a cut out on the wall for cameras on a different angle.
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egorfine
1 hour ago
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Prerelease about 4K remaster premiere will please shareholders and push the stock price up, while actually doing a good job will only hurt the bottom line.
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Dumblydorr
1 hour ago
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Unrelated: does anyone else experience huge lag with HBO streaming app? It’s easily the slowest I regularly use on Samsung smart tv.
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etothet
1 hour ago
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On an Apple TV with first gen Homepods connected it is incredibly laggy. Specifically rewind and fast forward take sometimes up to 10 seconds to respond. And even then they never seem to get me to the correct location. It’s pretty maddening.
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colechristensen
53 minutes ago
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This could be an EXCELLENT marketing opportunity.

Set up a site for fans to point out errors and vote on them.

Then have HBO have just one editor interact with fans on the site, fix the most popular errors, and talk about them, maybe stream a little of the editing process.

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low_tech_love
40 minutes ago
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Yes a bit like modern car companies do by pushing out whatever untested experimental feature they have and let the customers figure them out (or die).
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bilekas
38 minutes ago
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That would require HBO to actually care.. They've already been paid, I don't see them fixing any of this for the streaming service.
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lotsofpulp
22 minutes ago
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>Update: the season one episodes are being updated live on HBO Max to their correct positions and titles. The corrected title:

>They've already been paid

HBO sells a subscription. Presumably, their goal is to be paid again, and again, and again.

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zebomon
18 minutes ago
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It honestly seemed like pretty sharp marketing to me already when I read about it on AV Club.
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intrasight
42 minutes ago
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True
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walthamstow
1 hour ago
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Damn, that's terrible. Reminds me of The Simpsons being cropped into 16:9 for Disney and obscuring the joke that all the Duff brews come from one pipe.
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haunter
1 hour ago
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You can switch to the original 4:3 though

Edit: and I'm getting flagged lol

The Simpsons > Details > Remastered aspect ratio > Off https://i.imgur.com/pQohgQp.jpeg

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crtasm
1 hour ago
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That option wasn't added until some time later.
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conradfr
22 minutes ago
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I wish Netflix did it for Seinfeld.
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maxerickson
1 hour ago
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I've had people make the Duff argument about real beers. Putting bad batches in a different can is a great way to do quality control on your main brand though.
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globular-toast
1 hour ago
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It's weird that they'd have the crew in the frame anyway. Was it really not possible to have them out of frame? I guess being able to "do it in post" makes people lazy?
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fredoralive
1 hour ago
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Possibly some issues with the hose length and the ability control the flow? Or perhaps it’s just an off the shelf up chuck chucker that doesn’t have a longer hose?
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joncrane
1 hour ago
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Hypothesis:

They were set up to shoot that scene that day and they were on a tight schedule. They started to set up and they realized they only had 12 feet of hose, or that the pressure dropped too much with a longer length of hose. They discussed all the options, and fixing it physically would take too long or be too expensive. Thus another "we'll fix it in post!" moment was born.

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eknkc
31 minutes ago
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They were already gonna edit it in post to remove the hose anyway.. Might as well remove the crew too in that case.
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liampulles
1 hour ago
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Probably more a function of "shit happens" when doing something new (making and using a "vomit hose") in a big, multi-functional project (shooting a TV show).
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the_af
1 hour ago
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If it can be fixed in post, what's the problem? The only flaw here is that they completely screwed up and forgot post for these scenes (in the remaster).
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nayroclade
1 hour ago
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Apparently they didn't forget. Lionsgate did all the necessary work, then someone sent the "wrong file" to HBO Max, and it seems nobody checked it properly before uploading it!

Given the volume of material these streamers are handling, I expect QA is minimal. I remember when I was watching Frasier on Amazon Prime, a bunch of the episodes had been configured to play in the wrong aspect ratio. Clearly nobody had ever bothered to check them.

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sevensor
58 minutes ago
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I’ve seen movies on Prime where the audio was very badly out of sync. I thought it was my setup at first, but I was able to isolate it to particular titles. Like watching a bad dub from another language.
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the_af
31 minutes ago
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> Given the volume of material these streamers are handling, I expect QA is minimal

Yeah, I expect QA is minimal for these shows that are past their prime. Only fans will really watch them again, it's probably not worth it to spend the extra time to review every single episode. (But of course, fans will care! I'm just saying it's probably not worthwhile for HBO to check)

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lou1306
1 hour ago
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I guess the crew has to stay pretty close to the end of the hose or it becomes hard to time the... flow... correctly. Likely, they still had to process the frames anyway to make the... flow... look like it comes out of Sterling's mouth, not from the side of his face, so it was basically no extra cost.
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actionfromafar
1 hour ago
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They were out of frame. Out of the 4:3 frame.

Edit: I jumped the gun and thought we were talking about the Friends screenshot.

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thejohnconway
1 hour ago
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No the original was 16:9, you can see they have been digitally removed in the shots from the Blu-ray.
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dghf
1 hour ago
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But it was never intended for 4:3. They were always in frame, just digitally removed.
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