Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far
220 points
16 hours ago
| 23 comments
| grocerydive.com
| HN
karamanolev
7 hours ago
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I work in this exact space (online grocery retailer in Europe). We're profitable and one of the few companies to be so in the sector - many online divisions are losing money and being bankrolled by the parent company with physical stores. Alternatively, burning VC money.

The thing that's wrong with Ocado's technology is that it's ridiculously expensive and tailored for huge FC's (fulfillment centers). The problem with that is that it needs to serve a large population base to be effective and that's hard - in dense metros, the driving times are much longer despite smaller distances. In sparse metros, the distances are just too long. In our experience, the optimal FC size is 5-10K orders/day, maybe up to 20K/day in certain cases, but the core technology should certainly scale down profitably to 3-5K. Ocado solves for scaling up, what needs to be solved is actually scaling down.

There are a lot of logistical challenges outside the FC, especially last mile and you need to see the system as a whole, not just optimize one part to the detriment of all others.

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jon-wood
2 hours ago
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I think there's a space for something in between Ocado and Uber Eats, in the 2010s I worked for a startup where you could book an Ocado style delivery slot for the next day from a bunch of different butchers, bakers, etc and then we'd send a van round to collect from all of them and deliver it to you. Annoyingly they ran out of money just a little bit too soon, I'm pretty sure if they'd managed to hold out until 2020 they'd have seen a huge increase in sales as everyone fully got on board with online delivery and been laughing.

I think the big win with that model vs Ocado is that scaling down is fine, you work with whatever shops are in the area and don't need to deal with building fulfilment centres. Maybe you need a car park somewhere to put the vans overnight. Scaling up is a case of moving into different areas, or onboarding new shops. Absolutely agreed that last mile is a nightmare but we mostly had it down I think, the biggest pain there was that we were relying on a bunch of third parties to pack an order, and if any of them got something wrong we ended up with an unhappy customer on the phone and needing to deal with it.

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simgt
6 hours ago
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Where are you operating? I live in a dense European city and I don't know a single person who orders groceries online. Smallish shops with bike racks in front of the door are simply too convenient, seems hard to beat. Next few days shopping can easily be done in 15mn on the way back home.
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crazygringo
1 hour ago
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I find online grocery shopping shines for heavy and bulky things that are a huge pain to schlep home otherwise, especially stuff that lasts a while.

All juices/waters/beers/wines, paper towels, lots of oranges/grapefruits, cleaning products like bleach/detergent, etc. When they carry them up to your fourth-floor door it's just so much easier.

The smallish shops are good for stuff you can then easily carry in a bag by hand -- meat, veg, cheese, fresh bread.

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wiether
37 minutes ago
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I have this conversation regularly with friends, family, coworkers...

And I've not yet been able to establish the right criteria to guess how a person is buying their groceries.

Location, age, income, number of people in the household, physical ability...

A single guy living in the city center with good income? Takes his car to go in big supermarket outside the city.

A family with four kids living in the suburbs? Goes everyday in the small shops.

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roryirvine
5 hours ago
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I live in inner London. I have multiple grocery shops around me - within 10 minutes' walk I have a fishmonger, two butchers, two delicatessens, three bakeries, three greengrocers, four mid-sized organic/international grocers, six patisseries, a large Lidl, and a very large Sainsbury's supermarket.

I visit those local shops once or twice almost every day to pick up fresh bits and pieces - but I still get bulky or heavy stuff delivered by Ocado (toilet roll, washing powder, everyday wine, that sort of thing).

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Computer0
3 hours ago
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There is a gas station that sells candy and stale jerky, a hard, sidewalk-less 10 minutes walk from me (probably 20). Not sure it would be feasible to go anywhere else. -American
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roryirvine
3 hours ago
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That's the thing, though - you'd think that this would result in these "heavyweight" Ocado-style home delivery options being more viable in the US than in London. And yet, they're not.

Sure, you have Doordash-style same-hour options which are largely based on someone picking stuff up from a local store on your behalf (we have lots of those too). But the Ocado/Kroger robotic hive fulfilment centres ought to be more efficient than that whilst offering higher quality by cutting out the labour-intensive warehouse -> store -> shelf -> checkout part of the process.

I think some of it comes from a feeling of "that can't possibly work", perhaps as a hangover from the failure of Webvan during the dotcom boom. Maybe with some "well, I have to use my car for everything else, so I might as well use it to collect groceries too" layered on top.

Which all points to it being a fairly intractable problem - there are a bunch of only tangentially-related issues that need sorting out before it can be become a widespread success.

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mapt
3 hours ago
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Another possibility: For perishable goods in the sort of SKU counts typically offered, it can't work unless it has a certain minimum scale. Local supermarkets supported by a largely automated (and has been for 30 years) regional distribution center have that scale from walk-in traffic. A new delivery service using high-density storage could save on real estate and labor costs on the backend, but it has to have runway to replace a lot of the local market (which may take a decade), and the whole time you're scaling, these low-velocity SKUs are literally spoiling while these expensive, high-throughput robots are mostly idle. The frontend costs of delivery are a separate category of problem.

Replacing the regional distribution center instead with even higher levels of automation, and getting your groceries delivered from the same warehouse the supermarket is, would give you the scale from the start... but then that increases your frontend delivery costs and more importantly your frontend delivery latency; High latency is a much worse thing with milk than with books or hammers.

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roryirvine
2 hours ago
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Sure, but that's a matter of raising capital - which, again, you would think would favour the US over the UK.

To be fair, though, the bulk of Ocado's initial investors were from the retail and finance worlds - and the difference between the US and UK is smaller in those fields than it is for tech.

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nunez
44 minutes ago
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More like 30!
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MEMORYC_RRUPTED
5 hours ago
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I live in a dense European city and all I ever do is order groceries online. I can order larger amounts in one go, so, batch order once every two weeks or so.

Instead of having to fight with a machine to give back my empty cans/plastic bottles, I can just give the delivery person a crate and get my money back.

Doesn't capture all my groceries, I love biking or walking to a smaller shop on occasion, or if I have a specific craving, but 90% of my groceries is delivery.

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rsynnott
1 hour ago
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I live literally five minutes walk from a decently sized supermarket, ten minutes from another, and ten minutes on the bus from a great big one. One of my neighbours still gets supermarket delivery. There seems to be some sort of market for it, anyway...
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Forgeties79
1 hour ago
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We use Costco delivery at my house because it’s 10-15min each way to go there plus an hour at the place shopping at best (long lines are common). With 2 kids you feel that time especially given how frequently you have to shop for groceries.

It’s a more limited selection but there’s plenty to choose from and I’m done picking out my groceries in five minutes. They magically show up at my door for very little extra cost and I don’t have to bicker with my kids about grabbing a bunch of random stuff either.

I’m not saying you’re wrong for feeling that way, but you’d be surprised how much work it is to go to a grocery store, no matter how close it is. It’s important to think about other factors here.

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rsynnott
58 minutes ago
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> I’m not saying you’re wrong for feeling that way

I mean I'm not feeling any particular way; I don't have a problem with the neighbours using it. I'm somewhat surprised that it makes sense for them, but each to their own. Myself, I just shop on the way home from work (my walk brings me past one of the supermarkets).

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TechnicalVault
5 hours ago
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In the London suburbs you see the grocery delivery vans out and about all day every day. It very much depends on the neighbourhood though, mostly the slightly posh mums or elderly ones ordering.
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graemep
49 minutes ago
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In the UK, but not in London, but my order online sometimes because local shops do not have everything I want, it takes time to drive into town and shop at a supermarket, so when I am busy I order online.

Like a lot of people who work from home there is big difference between the time required to shop, and taking a few minutes away from my desk to get some stuff from the door to the fridge.

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chickory3
4 hours ago
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> I live in a dense European city and I don't know a single person who orders groceries online.

I live in the U.S. and have almost never used a service like Instacart. Also, when I see the item I’m trying to order in Amazon is fulfilled by Whole Foods, I typically don’t buy it, because of the additional cost.

I’d rather suffer a small amount of inconvenience to save several dollars on groceries, and often it may mean that I may need to order a different brand to pick up a similar item at a local store.

However, I’ll gladly pay a little additional money for Amazon for many other items, because it’s convenient, shipping is included in Prime, and because I can get what I want.

I make the majority of my retail purchases at a supermarket, followed by Amazon online (Prime only), then a very small percentage in-person at Target, Walmart, or a hardware/home supplies store or some random online retailer.

The best I can do to “shop local” is to use a supermarket chain; there is no mom-and-pop to support that isn’t a chain unless it’s a restaurant. I don’t pretend that this is actually “shopping locally”.

I’ve only participated in a boycott once or twice, because there is typically a practical reason for shopping when and where I do- either I need to shop then because I don’t get out much, or there’s a sale with actually lower prices, rather than the frequent “increase the price just to cut it to get you to order more” thing, which I also get sucked into, because I don’t have time to price shop, unless it’s with camelcamelcamel for Amazon.

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sokoloff
4 hours ago
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Similar shopping story at our house, but I will observe that Home Depot has made amazing strides into competing with Amazon for delivery of items.

They’ll ship me a $10 <thing my project needs> almost always for free and often next day, sometimes same day. And their prices are competitive in general with Amazon and supplyhouse.com.

I don’t know that it’s a great (or even sustainable) offering from their business angle, but I love it as a consumer and DIYer!

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squeedles
3 hours ago
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I believe that HD (and Lowes) massively subsidizes their delivery ops simply because they don't want to cede the space to Amazon. It allows them to under-stock the stores but still maintain a reasonable range of products. However each time I have ordered, they have delivered a ~$2 part via Fedex, at no extra cost to me.

They are a bigger fish than the mom and pop stores but that just means that it will take a little longer for the Amazon Prime monopoly cash flow to devour it.

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imtringued
1 hour ago
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Reading these two comments is bizarre from my perspective. How is Amazon competitive with anything? They tend to have higher prices than other online retailers and the intransparent market place system tries to protect shady sellers with product focused reviews instead of seller based reviews. The moment you get even a single fake product or wrong delivery all the perceived savings evaporate at once.

The idea of paying a subscription for the privilege of being scammed sounds ridiculous. The cost of deliveries doesn't magically go down because you're paying a subscription. You're paying for it either way. Either you're overpaying on the subscription because you're not ordering enough or you're overpaying in the form of higher prices that contain the remaining delivery fee.

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squeedles
1 hour ago
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It's the all you can eat buffet effect. Pay the price and don't have to worry about shipping, can watch (some) streaming without having to worry about paying, and whatever else they decide to roll into their monopoly black hole today.

Sure, if you do a full accounting of costs you may win or lose, but fundamentally people are paying for simplicity. Because almost everyone is lazy, or too busy, or too afraid of random scammers, or whatever, and they played their cards right to become the Sears Catalog from the 19th century in the 21st century.

edit - and one thing that helped them get there is the return policy, so if you get one of those scam sellers, or they sent you wrong crap, opened crap, or just plain everyday crap, you press a couple buttons, maybe drop something off at a UPS store, and problem solved. That definitely shields them from the fallout from their endless listings from sellers like QWERTY123 and ZXCVBN789, and provides an advantage over any other online ordering that doesn't have the same massive advantage of scale.

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sokoloff
59 minutes ago
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For most everything I'm giving as Christmas gifts this year, Amazon has the best (often tied for the best) price. Things from Apple are cheaper on Amazon than from Apple (Airpods Pro 3, M4 Air, etc.)

Predictable delivery, easy/generous customer service, best/tied-for-best price, excellent selection. I'm not sure which part of that is uncompetitive...

(If you know a better price on Airpods 3 Pro or a base M4 Air, do let me know as I'm always happy to save money.)

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tstrimple
1 hour ago
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This but on the other end. I've had literally thousands of pounds of material delivered for free from Home Depot. Sheet good weight adds up very quickly.
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dottjt
6 hours ago
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Maybe it's different in Europe, but at least in Australia you end up paying more at smaller shops, so I tend to avoid them. Is this the case in Europe as well?
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mrweasel
4 hours ago
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That probably depends on the country and what you mean by small. Smaller shops/supermarkets in Denmark tend to be cheaper, because they are run mostly as discount brands, while the larger stores a premium brands and have the more expensive options.

However, Danish supermarkets are generally kept small by regulation, meaning that there are very few supermarket that could be considered big by international standards.

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simgt
5 hours ago
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Yes shops in dense urban areas are overall more expensive but there are discount stores like Lidl too. For higher quality products the difference is marginal (if you can even find an equivalent in a big suburban store). Having experienced both, my feeling is that it evens out if you account for the running cost of a car used often or delivery.
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londons_explore
6 hours ago
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Yes - groceries in a small shop are easily 2x the £/calorie in the UK compared to a big superstore.
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simgt
5 hours ago
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Are you comparing the cost of strictly identical products or something else? I'd be very curious to have some sources if you have any
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londons_explore
5 hours ago
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No - small shops tend to sell mostly expensive branded products in smaller packets, whereas superstores sell larger packs of unbranded products.
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jnd-cz
3 hours ago
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In my country and city the small shops are largely stocked from buying the same things from larger shops combined with their own resupplying network. So you can either walk 100m to the corner shop, pay couple dozen % extra or walk 500m to the nearest Lidl or similar and save on basically the same products.
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ant6n
6 hours ago
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For a first world country, Germany has ridiculously low food prices. These are found at the chain supermarkets (Aldi, Lidl, etc.). They tend to be small by American big box standards (perhaps 1000sqm, so maybe 3x the size of a bodega). There's a lot of these supermarkets everywhere in the country, most people can easily come across them during usual daily trips.
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istinetz
6 hours ago
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judging by his name, he is perhaps in Sofia. I am also living here, and can confirm that many middle class people order groceries online.
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danielbln
5 hours ago
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Berlin here, people order from bike delivery grocery stores all the time. Not necessarily to do your weekend shopping, but still.
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jack_tripper
3 hours ago
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Isn't this expensive after you factor in the extra margins and delivery costs?
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danielbln
2 hours ago
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Well, ish. German grocery prices are still quite low, comparatively. People use the delivery services not for full weekend shopping, more if you get home late and the fridge is empty, or a public holiday is coming up etc.

Still, they are popular.

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Mars008
3 hours ago
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There are old, disabled, sick who rather by online than walk. Normally I walk about a mile to grocery store several times a week. But when sick Amazon fresh or whole food is the best price/quality/time option.
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tpm
5 hours ago
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I live in a not-so-dense European city (Bratislava) and several our neighbours here in the extended city centre order groceries online, although we have a small shop within 100m and supermarkets within 2km of driving. It's very convenient for parents staying at home, for example.
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ekianjo
5 hours ago
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> Smallish shops with bike racks in front of the door are simply too convenient

Most people don't live in city centers. Because they are the most expensive places to live in.

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ben_w
4 hours ago
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You don't need to be in a city centre for small shops with bike racks.

This is village with a population of a bit less than 3000, which I only know about because I have walked East-West across most of the state of Brandenburg (from Słubice in Poland to the city of Brandenburg) and this trains station was a convenient break point:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3459295,14.2800967,3a,60y,14...

Here's Aberystwyth, where I did my degree, population 13k, nearby villages boost that by about 6k, students by another 8k:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4145833,-4.0848806,3a,75y,19...

I grew up on the south coast of the UK. Which is certainly expensive overall, but it has cheap areas like Leigh Park which used to be entirely council houses (i.e. made for poor people and run by the local council):

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Leigh+Park,+Havant,+UK/@50...

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graemep
1 hour ago
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One of those shows several cars in the photo and a single bike.

The other two show pedestrianised areas, and all three show pedestrians without any indication of how they go there. When I to to similar areas in my town (pop approx 23k) I have drive there, park, and then walk around.

I have several shops within easy walking distance and many people (including me) do walk to them, but quite a few drive. Few bikes (kids mostly) at shops although leisure cycling is VERY popular here.

One of the nice things about an edge of town area with its own identity as a village is we have a lot of local stuff which is walkable and friendly.

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simgt
1 hour ago
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The UK is strange, it's really not bike friendly but you do have rows of small shops outside of city centers and towns have many of them too. France is rather the opposite or simply worse on all aspects in the countryside.
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graemep
54 minutes ago
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The UK varies a lot. A lot of places are walkable so a mix of public transport (in cities) or car and parking and then walking are common.

I never had a car in London, and would not want to drive in central London. Public transport is faster, less tiring, and while not cheap, is cheaper than running a car.

Living in Cheshire a car is a necessity.

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ben_w
1 hour ago
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> One of those shows several cars in the photo and a single bike.

Yes, and? "Cars are popular" is not a surprising claim that anyone has been contradicting, so far as I can see. (Also, Aberystwyth is tiny enough to get around entirely on foot, and hilly enough that bikers have to be exceptionally fit, and yet despite this, bike racks).

> The other two show pedestrianised areas, and all three show pedestrians without any indication of how they go there.

The Edeka in Briesen is one of the other two, I don't see a pedestrianised area, do you mean the car park owing to the open-air market set up in it?

The other one (Leigh Park) is literally in the middle of a typical UK conurbation with, as is normal in the UK, approximately universal pedestrian access. People can walk there easily from their homes, they can cycle, they can drive, they might even take a bus. One thing they're really not likely to do is come from very far away, because the only people who know about Leigh Park are the adjacent parts of the conurbation and they mostly look up their noses at it because it's poor.

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simgt
5 hours ago
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You don't always need to be a city center to have this convenience, but you can't be in an area that is car centric... And usually when people compare the cost of both of these places, they only account for the cost per square meter of accommodation.
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rsynnott
1 hour ago
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You'd get these in inner suburbs, too. And non-inner suburbs, for that matter.
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algo_trader
7 hours ago
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> FC size is 5-10K orders/day, maybe up to 20K/day in certain cases, but the core technology should certainly scale down profitably to 3-5K.

deja-vu from the e-scooter business. even with a good product, its just not profitable/scalable enough

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mikaoj85
2 hours ago
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> Ocado solves for scaling up, what needs to be solved is actually scaling down.

This has been solved by Pio (by AutoStore)

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bob1029
6 hours ago
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The grocery business has razor thin margins. There is no dry sponge remaining to absorb this kind of massive fixed cost. The business is highly variable.

I think scaling up would be the only way out of this problem. Scaling down only makes it worse.

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ErroneousBosh
2 hours ago
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I see Ocado vans driving up to deliver on the Isle of Skye, which I guess must come from either Fort William or Inverness.

I can't imagine it's especially profitable to deliver a bag of food in a refrigerated van to somewhere that's nearly four hours driving each way.

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rsynnott
1 hour ago
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I'd guess that they make a loss on this, but that they accept some losses in exchange for being able to say "we cover the whole country!" This is the case for pretty much any delivery business.
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Onavo
1 hour ago
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So who's their target customer? Are we talking about Amazon/Temu scale here?
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NicoJuicy
6 hours ago
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They literally copied their supplier ( autostore ).

Unfortunately, auto.ol shared secrets with them, Ocado abused that in court.

Literally, Fuck Ocado. I wouldn't trust them.

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bitdivision
6 hours ago
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Some context: https://archive.ph/Apfdv

Autostore ended up paying Ocado? How did Ocado abuse them?

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eurekin
3 hours ago
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Yes, AutoStore lost most important cases in US (ITC) and UK's High Court.
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NicoJuicy
2 hours ago
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Because autostore shared trade secrets with Ocado. The lawsuit was found to be not valid.

Note: Ocado was a customer of Autostore in 2012 and just copied them. Sharing IP basically invalidated the lawsuit.

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mosura
15 hours ago
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Sounds like they just put them in the wrong places.

> Fenyo added that Kroger’s decision to locate the Ocado centers outside of cities turned out to be a key flaw.

> “Ultimately those were hard places to make this model work,” said Fenyo. “You didn’t have enough people ordering, and you had a fair amount of distance to drive to get the orders to them. And so ultimately, these large centers were just not processing enough orders to pay for all that technology investment you had to make.”

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jlarocco
15 hours ago
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But I think in the cities Kroger grocery stores serve as the fulfilment centers, so they don't need robotic ones.

There's probably still room for automation, but it might have to be different than warehouse automation.

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michaelt
14 hours ago
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It depends on your business model.

If a basket of groceries brought online costs $15 more than the in-store prices, then you can pick in-store profitably, very easy. That's the instacart model.

But if a basket of groceries brought online costs about the same as buying in-store? With the retailer bearing the costs of picking, packing and delivery instead of the customer?

Well then you need something more efficient than a store.

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cudgy
14 hours ago
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Even $15 more isn’t enough on account of delivery time, transpo costs, driver time, picking items, and bagging. Current model is for drivers to subsidize by being tricked into taking unprofitable orders.
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michaelt
14 hours ago
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If Kroger operates the same was as Ocado does in the UK, then the drivers are paid by the hour, with the company providing the van and fuel.

Agree a lot of modern delivery businesses involve "self-employed" drivers getting paid a pittance and using their own vehicle and fuel, though.

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mothballed
14 hours ago
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From what I've seen, for grocery the model is they'll give you the least desirable or near expired stock that the walk-in customers won't grab. So they're basically saving spoilage. This happens so reliably I'm absolutely convinced this is how they 'pay' for it without raising prices.

I've also noticed this with hardware stores like Lowes. If I place a pickup order they more often than not will pawn off on me their broken, returned, or even used and damaged stock. Items like building wrap will have soil and rips on it, concrete mix will be spoiled from moisture, lumber will be all the most warped pieces (if you don't order a whole pallet, expect every last piece of fractional pallet will be knotted to hell, split, twisted, and badly warped), plumbing valves will be open package and leaky, etc etc. It's like clockwork, even if the stock sitting on the shelf doesn't have these problems. Due to this there are some stores I will never do a pickup/delivery order from.

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gambiting
9 hours ago
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Here in the UK it's common for online grocery sites to say "fresh for at least X days" on every item, so bread will usually say 5 days, eggs 7 days etc etc. Doesn't matter if I select collection(so someone is picking those items for me at the store) or delivery(so they come from a larger warehouse). They stick to that promise.
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NegativeLatency
8 hours ago
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An example of my experiences: you’ll get the apple with the bruise and maybe some damage instead of the nice one you’d pick out if you’re shopping for yourself.
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bloak
6 hours ago
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That's my experience, too. Also the dented tin and the miniature mango. And, if the order is arriving at 10pm, the salad best before midnight.
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kakacik
7 hours ago
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A counter-example - with a weekly shopping list way too long (family of 4), its hard for the husband to pick up all items as fresh as possible and do all necessary checks on each of them. Or in other words - even people themselves do make same mistake, I certainly do.
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lotsofpulp
12 hours ago
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And how about charging more in store than online?

On two separate occasions, I stopped by Walmart recently and spent $0.50 extra and $1.50 extra by walking in, going to the aisle, and picking up the item myself.

The Walmart app even tells you that the price on the app is only for online orders. But I didn’t want to wait for an unknown amount of time for a Walmart employee to bring it out to my car (been more than 10 to 15min a few times).

So basically, I pay extra to avoid that volatility in time to run that errand, and I do more work for it.

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ssl-3
8 hours ago
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Yep. Wal-Mart has been that way for years now.

I rarely shop at Wal-Mart. There's only a few things that I buy there.

One of those things is motor oil: Their online pricing for 5 quarts of full-synthetic whatever is usually impossible to beat.

The only catch is that you have to go to the store, park outside, and wait for someone to bring it out. Going inside the store to buy it in person often costs several dollars more (and those dollars count towards the next cheeseburger).

It seems completely asinine for it to be this way, and I feel completely silly waiting outside for someone to bring me a single jug of motor oil and hand it to me through my car window, but it's very clear that they don't want me in the store.

And I'm cheap. So I play their game and let them do it for me.

(It's usually very fast for me, so there's that.)

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sejje
9 hours ago
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I'm not sure they want us in the store anymore.

And I'm glad to stay outside.

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Animats
12 hours ago
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Using a retail store for fulfillment means orders are accepted for items that are out of stock. the ordering system doesn't have reliable inventory info. Then the customer gets a partial shipment. This is the curse of Safeway grocery ordering.
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sct202
14 hours ago
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Kroger placed one of the sites in Orlando to also service Tampa and Jacksonville when they have 0 regular stores in the entire state. They were trying to use it to expand into the area, but I never saw very much in terms of advertising or promotions to drive demand but it could have also been that the robots were so bad that they couldn't attempt to market and push volume.
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georgefrowny
7 hours ago
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I idly wonder if what would actually make sense here is a hybrid model that combines a gigantic fulfillment center with tens of thousands of products located "far" from people, with a large physical footprint and near to road/rail arteries, but with a mid-bandwidth, high-granularity, low-latency physical link to "near" places.

For example, imagine you had an upscaled pneumatic tube system (don't get hung up on the exact implementation, it could be a small gauge train system or conveyer belt: whatever floats your Factorio-addled boat) with a diameter around, say, half a metre to a metre, packed goods into canisters and shot into town where they pop out at local distribution centres for pickup or last-mile delivery.

This is where I thought the Boring Company might be going back before it was obvious it was an anti-public transit gambit.

Possibly the curse of rail systems applies where the maintenance of the track (tube) costs so much that it's cheaper to fly (done delivery) or drive all the way on public roads (current solution). The advantage over rail is that the land footprint is very small: the tract is about a metre wide and can be buried if needed. Perhaps it's just not really different enough to trucking it all into town using semi trailers, which would still be required for large items and especially construction materials.

Then again, even if this hare-brained system were to work, this assumes we actually want to continue to reduce most human commercial interactions to gigantic, remote, anonymous capital-intensive megasystems producing pods that pop out of the ground into robotic vending stations.

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pjc50
5 hours ago
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Buried anything is just horrendously expensive. Partly because of other things that are already buried.
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georgefrowny
4 hours ago
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Sure, but "we're going to cut the costs of horizontal drilling to a tiny fraction" was the Boring Company's original stated goal. And not all of it does need to be underground.

Even if it was a good idea (which I doubt, it's just a idle thought), I don't think there's a practical way to retrofit such a system in existing cities due to the costs, planning and presumably private funding for a non-public network, because the public road system exists, needs to continue to exist for large items and can be used for virtually free in comparison. So if/when the depot-to-neighbourhood leg is automated, it's much more likely we'll see drone vehicles on the road or occasionally in the air instead of dedicated pipeline-like delivery systems.

Even without the pipeline, you can conceive of self-diving heavy vehicles pulling up next to local delivery hubs and disgorging thousands of shipping pods into a robotic receiver. From there they either get picked up, droned, Starship'ed, cycled, whatever to the eventual front door. It's still possible just having then self-drive right to the door would turn out cheaper.

Sounds very sterile as an experience, but really it's only an optimisation of the small, but highly distributed, remaining segment of inefficiency in the existing global machine that already converts raw materials to a widget or food and gets it to within 100 miles of your house.

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tstrimple
1 hour ago
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> Sure, but "we're going to cut the costs of horizontal drilling to a tiny fraction" was the Boring Company's original stated goal.

Sounds like the sort of idea a con man would pitch. Oh wait...

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georgefrowny
1 hour ago
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To be fair, he did do that for kilos to orbit via reusable rocket, so there was a moment when everyone went "hmm maybe there is a TBM equivalent of the Falcon 9".

But presumably it turned out that actually Herrenknecht and Hitachi aren't stupid, whereas, say, Boeing had been leaving opportunity for radical cost reduction on the table.

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tverbeure
11 hours ago
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They literally went too far…
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rcxdude
7 hours ago
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Yeah, because arguably the main advantage of Ocado's warehouse is that it's extremely dense: you can pack a lot of storage in a very small area and still access it reasonably efficiently. But this only matters if space is at a premium, like near towns and cities (and for low-margin deliveries, you want your drivers to not have to go very far to your customers).
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monero-xmr
12 hours ago
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“Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway”

In the AI analogy, never underestimate the productivity of a human when dealing with a giant pile of groceries. You can throw all the AI and robots you can at something but sometimes a $20 an hour human picking from stacks of goods and produce simply destroys it in raw economics

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bowmessage
10 hours ago
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That’s not really what the article implies, at all.
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markus_zhang
15 hours ago
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I had a wonderful retro futuristic dream about an automated Costco warehouse a few weeks ago. It was one of the less weird dreams so I still remember it clearly.

Basically, each section is like a closed areas with some windows. Customers order at the computers by the windows and flash their membership cards. Robots glide left and right to move 10 samples to the customer, in an arm with rotating clips. Customers can press a button to rotate the samples, observe them, and place an order by pressing a button. Samples not chosen are temporarily stocked at the window as a “stack”.

In each closed section, there are humans who monitors and maintains the robots, and occasionally fetch samples when robots stop working (hopefully it too often, you know those 9s).

At the exit, a human worker assembles the packages and hand them to the customers with a smile. Customers have a last chance to return unwanted items.

Why was it a retro futuristic dream? Because the customers have the option to go into a bakery to enjoy a cup of coffee/tea, some cake and socialize with fellow customers. All of them looked like the men and women from advertisement from Fallout 4.

I’d like to shop or even help build one of these.

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Animats
12 hours ago
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What you've re-invented is Keydoozle, from 1937.[1] This was the first automated grocery store. Three stores were opened, but there were enough mechanical problems that it didn't work well.

[1] https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/keedoozle-automated-store-p...

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dredmorbius
59 minutes ago
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There were also automats, automated restaurants serving all food through a vending machine (or more accurately, wall). Classically all for a single fixed price (a nickle).

These are featured in several cultural references, such as the 1962 Delbert Mann film That Touch of Mink, and PDQ Bach's "Concerto for Horn and Hardart" (being named after a prominent New York City automat chain).

Mink: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Y3GXMB4VPY8>

Concerto: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=NT6bxlnS1Is>

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mapt
3 hours ago
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And what some of us might not have the context for, is that grocery stores at the time were usually clerk-serviced; Just like you don't pump your own gas in New Jersey, at the time the norm was that you handed the clerk a list of products and they fetched them from the shelves for you.

Arguably this model has a great deal of compatibility with robotic compact storage, especially in high-land-value areas.

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hypercube33
3 hours ago
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Thank you for that rabbit hole. Interesting that the same guy gave us both of the present day shopping systems just one was too far ahead
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markus_zhang
4 hours ago
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Wow, this man was decades ahead of his time. My hat off.
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system2
9 hours ago
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Incredible, they were 75 years ahead of their time.
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Terr_
7 hours ago
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That kinda stuff is why I'm an incrementalist, as opposed to "Great Man" theories of civilization. A big impressive product or leap-forward is mostly luck and thousands of cascading preconditions on small improvements everywhere else, and often not even the first person to try.

It's not hard to imagine that if a fundamentally similar store today that took the world by storm, there would be a profusion of news stories asserting that the founder is a genius visionary, with nary a peep for Clarence Saunders et al.

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Gud
4 hours ago
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But if the technology is not ready to be implemented yet, was it really a genius level idea?

Here’s my idea: instant teleportation.

I expect to be credited

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wongarsu
4 hours ago
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I think that's kind of the point: there are no "genius ideas", at least not at the level and frequency popularly portrayed. If teleportation isn't feasible then the idea isn't genius. If teleportation is feasible, then using it for transporting humans isn't genius, it's incredibly obvious.

Or to give a real-world example: The Wright brothers did some great work on making aircraft steerable and doing wind-tunnel tests, but working planes were mostly a product of ICE engines finally reaching sufficient power-to-weight ratios, not of the Wright brothers being unique geniuses. In a long line of people trying to build heavier-than-air aircraft they were simply the first to have access to the necessary technology to make it work

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seanmcdirmid
15 hours ago
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Sounds like the old general store model, you didn’t browse yourself, the shop keep would bring out what you wanted, it was always behind the counter. I experienced this in China when I started visiting in 1999/early 2000s, it’s mostly not like that anymore though. You still have department stores where you need to buy things first before touching them, though.
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Scoundreller
14 hours ago
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Had a large-format (for its time) chain store in Canada like that until 1996: https://www.tvo.org/article/what-happened-to-consumers-distr...

Basically a catalogue store without shipping to your door.

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seanmcdirmid
13 hours ago
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Oh Service Merchandise was a thing in the USA also, where I was living at in Mississippi at least. It was basically catalog focused store with a showroom.

IKEA is kind of like that also, but you have to get everything yourself after picking it out upstairs. And Sears might have been like this at some point before I was born.

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lytfyre
11 hours ago
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Little bit more specialized, but Lee Valley Tools [https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca] stores seem to still operate this way. Showroom (and a few computer kiosks) and order forms up front, then line up for them to pull the items from the back.
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chairmansteve
11 hours ago
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Argos in the UK was similar. You would go into the store and look up the product in a catalog. Then go to counter and order it, wait 2-5 minutes and they give you the product. I found it quite convenient.
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rsynnott
1 hour ago
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They're still there. Was surprised to run into one recently when I was in London (they pulled out of Ireland a while back, and I'd assumed they'd just closed totally at that point, because it _does_ feel like an increasingly marginalised business model.)
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georgefrowny
5 hours ago
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Screwfix do this too. Just a counter with a handful of staff who go and get your items.

If you pre-order it's waiting at the desk. Very handy for people who can order from the job site on the account and send the lad round to grab it.

And a (relatively) unshittified website too because if jobbing tradies can't use the damn thing because it's too loaded down with ads and bullshit, they just won't.

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walthamstow
4 hours ago
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Screwfix is an all-round excellent consumer experience, for DIY or trade. The reviews on the website are often hilarious as well.
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lmm
10 hours ago
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They still exist. Tend to be pretty competitive on price, although they must be losing out to online shopping in a lot of places since they don't offer any showroom advantage.
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adaml_623
7 hours ago
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In my experience because you're picking up from the Argos you can do an instant return if you realize you ordered wrong (or the item is rubbish). Not perfect but a good way to get your hands on the product with an easy refund option
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markus_zhang
13 hours ago
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Reading the history of Consumers (thanks, I never knew this existed):

>In the 1990s, Consumers Distributing struggled to compete with Zellers and then Walmart Canada. Consumers Distributing sought bankruptcy protection in 1996.

And Zellers went under just a few years ago...

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bdangubic
11 hours ago
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I had hair when Zellers went under
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wild_egg
12 hours ago
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Sorry to say but 2013 was more than a few years ago...
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markus_zhang
52 minutes ago
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Oh I must have some bad memory unit…
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noisy_boy
3 hours ago
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Most of small town India is this. Small store, one person, usually owner or their family member, doing everything.
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onraglanroad
2 hours ago
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Indeed. Always handy if you needed four candles.
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ch4s3
14 hours ago
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You'll obviously buy fewer things that way, and I can't see that making business sense.
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markus_zhang
12 hours ago
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Yeah, that could be true. I'm not sure how many people are similar to me, who are allergic to "window shopping" and just want to buy, pay and exit. My Costco session is less than 30 minutes (from parking to back to car) in average.

I do research price, though, so if they show a big DISCOUNT sign and is more or less honest with it, I'll probably grab some, too.

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cmckn
15 hours ago
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Sounds like a lot of waiting around, versus just browsing the aisles. Maybe today’s consumers need to rediscover cash-and-carry, though.
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markus_zhang
15 hours ago
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In the dream customers just walk around and make orders. It’s actually old style I think, but with robots. Yeah it’s a bit like cash and carry, but customers didn’t move into the sections. They just get to browse the samples robots carried to them.

TBH, now that I think about it, the dream was way more vague than what I described in the reply. My brain probably reasoned about the idea subconsciously.

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pirate787
12 hours ago
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That was Best store in the 1980s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_Products

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klooney
10 hours ago
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In my home town, they tore the Best down and replaced it with a Best Buy, which was very confusing.
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tdeck
7 hours ago
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If you wish to experience more futuristic fever dreams, I present the Dahir Insaat YouTube channel:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc_6wfDYuFU

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whynotmaybe
15 hours ago
[-]
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markus_zhang
15 hours ago
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Yeah, something like this.

The only exception in warehouse was the cafeteria. I guess my brain wanted to make something retro futuristic so it made the cafeteria “retro” — manned by humans and cooked by humans too. There were even balloons inside now that I recall…

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CPLX
14 hours ago
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You’ve just described B&H in New York City.
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aerostable_slug
10 hours ago
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Now I'm picturing Hasidic robots.
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defrost
10 hours ago
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Being pushed about on trolleys and puppeteered by gentiles every Shabbat?
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vkou
12 hours ago
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You've reinvented the Soviet grocery store, but with robots instead of people and with a $7 cup of coffee.
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markus_zhang
12 hours ago
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I remember those stores as I came from a similar background. One vital difference is that they all have workers who have a straight face and don’t give it a fuck about customer service.

Then in the 90s they were all washed away by the new ones.

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rimbo789
1 hour ago
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That sounds truly terrible.
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danpalmer
15 hours ago
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This is a failure of business model and logistics, not a failure of the robotics.

> Fenyo added that Kroger’s decision to locate the Ocado centers outside of cities turned out to be a key flaw.

They over-spent on automating low-volume FCs. You could draw comparisons to Amdahl's law, they optimised the bit that wasn't the issue, the real issue was delivery distances and times.

Ocado has had good success with the robotics approach in the UK, because the UK is very high density compared to a lot of the US. Plus Ocado put a lot of work into creating good delivery routes, whereas it sounds like that wasn't a component of the automation stack that Kroger bought.

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martinald
14 hours ago
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I think we are mixing up two things here.

Robotics for picking and the general feasibility of grocery delivery in the US.

Ocado is good because their stock levels are far more accurate than the other supermarkets for online ordering, so you don't get as many substituted/missing items. This is sort of a side effect of having dedicated picking facilities Vs "real" supermarkets. I would not be surprised if they "lose" less stock as well compared to in supermarket fulfillment.

Then you have "is online grocery good in the US"? There's a lot of areas of the US that have reasonable density for this kind of service imo, and the road infrastructure is generally far superior to the UK which negates any loss of density (as you care about time between deliveries, not distance per se). I imagine the much better parking options in most suburbs in the US also helps efficiency (it's an absolute nightmare for a lot of the online delivery cos when there isn't off street parking in the UK and they have to park pretty far from the drop).

It sounds to me that Kroger just messed up the execution of this in terms of "marketing" more than anything.

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mrweasel
3 hours ago
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It's even explained in the article:

> You didn’t have enough people ordering, and you had a fair amount of distance to drive to get the orders to them

It's clearly not a technology problem, but it was made worse by heavily investing in robotics for locations that already couldn't sustain a fulfillment center.

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themafia
11 hours ago
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> failure of business model and logistics

Just the model. They optimized for tax outcomes. They obviously wanted in on the "Amazon race to the bottom" game.

https://www.leesburg-news.com/2025/11/30/kroger-took-incenti...

> the real issue was delivery distances and times.

Which they could care less about. Where else are you going to go?

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nunez
41 minutes ago
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> Speaking during an earnings call, interim Kroger CEO Ron Sargent — who took over in March after McMullen’s sudden departure following an ethics probe — said the company would conduct a “full site-by-site analysis” of the Ocado network.

Sounds like there were some politics involved in the original decision.

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iambateman
1 hour ago
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I’m regularly surprised by how important physically picking out groceries is for a large segment of the population.

We have done grocery pickup for years but the pickup lanes are almost always empty while dozens of shoppers walk into the store.

To me, shopping for groceries by hand is a waste of time but it clearly has some utility for a lot of people.

I wonder if that inertia is making traditional grocery shopping stickier than it should be and disincentivizing optimization.

I hope consumer tastes will change because there’s no reason for us to all walk into a giant warehouse every week.

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opinion3k
33 minutes ago
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I do most the cooking in my house, and the majority of it is meat and produce. I can say from years of experience that it's easy to grab a bad apple if you aren't paying attention or know about food quality, and from the grocery pickers I've seen, they aren't and don't.

A guitarist doesn't just buy some random guitar from amazon - they see it in person and play it. If you cook and care about your food, using a food service just isn't something you'll want to do.

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j_w
50 minutes ago
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I like to browse what is there and make decisions on what I'll be eating based on what I see.

Purchasing online feels more narrow and has me thinking more about things I've cooked before vs what I might want to try cooking/eating.

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giraffe_lady
38 minutes ago
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Food is what we're made of it and the buying, cooking, eating of it provides a lot of the structure of our lives. I'm skeptical of a view that would have us be even further alienated from these activities.

Shopping for food is important to me because food is important to me, and I have no desire to change this despite how "inefficient" it may be. This attitude has already very nearly optimized out most of the texture of daily life to no benefit that is apparent to me.

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skeptrune
6 hours ago
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It's interesting that the problem had more to do with poor decision-making related to warehouse location than robotics limitations.

The title is a red herring.

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rimbo789
1 hour ago
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Isn’t that the same thing? Robots without good decision making and working business model are nothing
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imroot
10 hours ago
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I've always said that in the back of my mind, the most successful grocery store would be the 'walls' of the store -- bakery, deli, produce, meats, floral, cheeses, dairy and having a little selection of store brands in the middle where consumers can pick up (and vendors can pay a premium for endcap space, because they're the only non-branded products out there), with the rest of the SKU's behind the walls of the grocery store in a fulfillment only model.

Kroger should have pulled a Wal-Mart and turned to their shrink-heavy stores in urban centers to online fulfillment only -- basically only their delivery drivers can retrieve items for an order, and everything's shopped by an associate (Look south of the MicroCenter in Dallas if you want to see what one looks like: it still has the Murphy USA in the parking lot and is basically an unbranded walmart building with 'driver' and 'associate' entrances -- and then deployed the robotics there: less retail space, more online/fulfillment capacity (have humans grab produce and custom sliced/packed items, robots pick the dry goods), and while you lose some cashier jobs, you'll probably have net improvement in terms of time waiting to be picked.

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zrobotics
10 hours ago
[-]
So what grocery stores used to be ~90 years ago, when the norm was you would give the clerk a list and they would grab your items from the back? The only stores I'm still aware of that are setup like this are auto parts stores, where 90% of the inventory is in the back.
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Doxin
8 hours ago
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Toolstation still has a model like that, and I gotta say I love it. They also seem to hire people who actually know something about the products they sell which is an unfortunate rarity these days.
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NegativeLatency
8 hours ago
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A store with a good deli/butcher is still like this to some degree
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ZeWaka
9 hours ago
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Only other places I can think of is weed dispensaries and pharmacies.

You could also count shoe stores and high-end jewelry and watch stores in that the clerk has to go in the back to fetch the non-display model.

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ssl-3
7 hours ago
[-]
Professional supply houses are usually that way, too.

Graybar[1], for instance: There's a counter with bar stools, and behind that counter are people who know their inventory very well.

I just walk in and tell them what I want. They write it all down on paper faster than I can say the words and then disappear into the back to fetch it while I help myself to a free ice cream sandwich from the freezer over on the right that one of the local trade unions provides.

[1]: Graybar is a US-based electrical supply place. The companies I work for have accounts there, but as far as I know anyone can walk in and buy stuff. They also have some datacom stuff. If I'm in the middle of Nowhere, Ohio and need, say, a single-mode patch cord today, then there's probably a Graybar less than an hour away that has one in stock. Otherwise, they'll have one for me tomorrow before 7:00AM.

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ryukoposting
2 hours ago
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The instant I read the first sentence of your comment, I thought "McMaster-Carr but for food" might be the most appealing pitch for online grocery delivery I've ever heard.

...with the caveat that McMaster's facilities are staffed by people, not robots.

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gambiting
9 hours ago
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In the UK you have a whole chain of stores called Argos where you have a catalogue of items, you pick the items you want and the clerk brings them to you. Also Screwfix and Toolstation are both hardware stores that operate the same way.
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jcims
2 hours ago
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This gave me a flashback to Service Merchandise. No idea how widespread they were, but that's how it operated. You'd collect tags for the things you want, take them to the counter, wait a bit and your order would roll out on a belt. Pull your car up, load it and leave.
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tdeck
7 hours ago
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This reminds me of the retail chain Service Merchandise which apparently used to operate this way. You'd walk around the store looking at display products, pick things out on a sheet, and then they'd appear on a conveyor belt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_Merchandise

I have never been to one because they went out of business decades ago.

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zuppy
8 hours ago
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that is a guarantee for less sales, not sure it makes business sense. for example, i don't buy generic products, i want specific properties from them. and sometimes i don't know what i want, i look at the isle and only then decide. and let's not forget about impulse shopping.

honestly, i wouldn't shop at this store, i want to get the items myself, without any interaction. interactions add delays.

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da02
15 hours ago
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Here in the Houston areas, supermarkets like Kroger/Walmart/HEB/etc always have single floor buildings. Why can't they build multi-floor buildings for storage upstairs and retail walk-in sales on the ground floor? On the above ground floors, they can create an automated or semi-automated system for employees to gather up items for online/delivery orders.
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AngryData
15 hours ago
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Probably because you then need pillars throughout the entire building to support the second floor which you are loading down with a ton of weight. The average forklift weighs 3x or more the weight of the average car, and then adding racking and stock on top of that. Yeah if you completely redesign your storage system to not require forklifts you save weight there, but you end up adding the weight back with all the heavy duty track systems and extra heavy duty racks that are required to eliminate the forklifts. Plus there is liability of having that weight up top, a rack failure on a second floor could take down half the building.

It is possible, but you end up spending 10x as much on the building.

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alphabettsy
13 hours ago
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Then put the warehouse on the first floor and put the store on top.

Lots of big cities have grocery stores with parking garages under them, doesn’t seem much different.

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AngryData
11 hours ago
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The difference is the 100x the cost to build it and the completely different amounts of foot traffic and margins available in dense city centers. Nobody is going to build such a store if their return on investment is expected 50-100 years down the road.
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SoftTalker
12 hours ago
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Inner city high rise construction is entirely different from tip-up and bolt together single-story box stores in the suburbs.
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tstrimple
1 hour ago
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I think this is correct. A lot of these buildings seem to be post frame or poll barn style. Relatively cheap for building large square footage buildings but add some limitations to multiple floors. Even if you put the storage floor under the shopping floor you'll run into tons of issues with buildings of these sizes that don't have a ton of pillars for additional support. I mostly see these stores built on vacant "rural" land on the outskirts of cities rather than in city centers themselves. Which means the single floor square footage is rarely an issue and not something worth designing a building around. If you have all the space you need to go wide, it's almost never worth going tall.
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poguemahoney
15 hours ago
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Good construction is not cheap and takes many quarters. Land outside the urban area is far too cheap and probably subsidized (directly or with free oversized infrastructure) because local government always wants jobs, even small numbers of shitty jobs.
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mlrtime
12 hours ago
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I thought about this a lot with parking spaces, nobody like big, open, tree-less parking lots. Why not just build them up adjacent to the grocery store.

The answer is $. It costs too much and land is cheaper than building up (In most places).

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adolph
12 hours ago
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All recent HEBs have dedicated grocery pickup staging space. I chatted with a staffer once. It is like its own little grocery store where they keep selections of hot, cold and room temperature bags of selected groceries temperature controlled until the orderer comes and they put them together and bring them out.

The ones in Bellaire and Meyerland are two level with parking (aka flooding space) below the store and a smaller parking lot on the second level with the store. Bellaire also has a fancy fuel cell setup for some reason. The single level HEB in Montrose(ish) was built into the site of an old complex of charming but nearly abandoned standalone quad/duplexes with many mature oaks. They seem to have retained nearly all of the trees on the grounds in greenspaces within the parking lot and entryway.

Here's some street view of Montrose. They also had a bike air and repair system when it opened. I'm not certain if it stayed in good repair itself. https://maps.app.goo.gl/KxHAvDqKca4E8L8a7

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tacker2000
15 hours ago
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I would guess that having everything on one floor optimizes the unloading, restocking and logistics. Also construction is cheaper.
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bena
15 hours ago
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The vast majority of the inventory is already on the sales floor.

Also, the backstock is minimal. Stores are designed for turnaround.

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DrewADesign
15 hours ago
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Right. Not selling things fast enough is a bigger problem than not having enough storage for unsold stock.
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taeric
13 hours ago
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Glad someone made this point. I'm curious how long people think most items in a grocery store last? Just consider the trucks you see stocking them on a daily basis. Typically it is bread and other high flow consumables, no?
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bena
1 hour ago
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Everything.

Retail stores are logistics. And part of that is product flow. There are trucks coming in every single day. When you buy an item at a store, that item is deducted from the store's inventory, when that item's stock reaches a certain threshold, an order is immediately placed to the distribution center, and that item is loaded onto a truck and could arrive as soon as that night.

There's no reason to keep anything "in the back" except for high demand items that aren't brought in by a vendor and overflow from items that didn't quite fill a shelf.

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taeric
1 hour ago
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Right, I just meant that you have a high chance of seeing the bread and drinks/chips getting delivered. They turn over pretty much daily. I would imagine it is the condiments and other very long shelf stable things that you may not see getting restocked on a daily basis?
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bena
41 minutes ago
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Oh, that's not really related to turnover.

Bread/snack cakes (Little Debbie, the bakery also does bread), chips, soda, and liquor/beer are typically handled by vendors. Coca-Cola has a guy come out and stock the Coca-Cola products. Frito-Lay has a guy handle the Frito-Lay products. Etc. They don't work for the store in any capacity.

Vendors typically come during the normal operating hours of the store. Bread guys like to be early in the morning. Chip and soda guys have routes and they'll get to you depending on how the rest of their route goes.

As for other stock, for the grocery side, the distribution center usually palletize stock based on aisle. And the pallets come shrinkwrapped on a truck that arrives at the store between 8 and 10. Someone from the store unloads the pallets from the truck into the warehouse. Once the truck is unloaded, they head back to the distribution center. At the store, the pallets are then staged near their respective aisles and workers restock the shelves overnight.

On the general goods side, the stock is loose in the truck, and a team of people unload the truck and palletize it based on department. Then those pallets are staged in the department for stocking by the overnight crew.

Source: my first job was with WalMart. I worked day stock in a few departments on both the grocery and general goods sides. I worked unloading the trucks on the general goods side. I also worked overnight on the general goods side. I've been involved with a good portion of the store side of the restocking. So all of this information is at least 20 years old, some things may have changed. But I've seen the vendors still while I'm shopping, so the broad strokes likelys till apply.

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fma
10 hours ago
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Or their online groceries didnt succeed because people can p4ice shop. I am of the belief Kroger does well because they obfuscate their prices and their tags which make it seems like they are sales truely are not.

Unlike Publix if I see a discount I know it is a discount. Every other item in Kroger has a yellow tag and a red price to make you think you are getting a deal when in fact the red number is higher than regular price at normal stores.

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georgefrowny
3 hours ago
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One of the reasons I kind of gave up on deliveries after COVID was the the experience of having a friendly but slightly rushed bloke clearly politely itching to get on to the next stop turn up at some random time in the evening (it's booked to a slot but the variance was large). Then he holds your door open and either helps you unload it watches you unload a bunch of randomly packed loose items from a large handful of his plastic crates, some with a single item in them, as fast as possible into laundry baskets in the hallway so you can transfer it to the right place at leisure. That was actually somehow really annoying to me.

Tesco used to use plastic box liners which you doing just hoick out, but those were quickly stopped due to bring plastic.

I'd rather they just handed over the crates or something and I could return them for a deposit the next time. Obviously I'd also rather all the supermarkets could share the same crates so I don't have to babysit piles of each brand separately.

Maybe Ocado have a better system then Tesco here?

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joncrocks
2 hours ago
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Ocado (at least in the UK) pack items into plastic bags inside the crates, which makes unloading easier at the doorstep.

You are charged for the bags (in the UK you have to charge 5p for plastic bags) but are refunded when you return them (during a later delivery).

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itopaloglu83
5 hours ago
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It’s a great convenience though, we’ve been using it over a year now and it solved most of the bulk purchases, we then visit the store for other detailed items and get done quickly.
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petesergeant
9 hours ago
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> Or their online groceries didnt succeed because people can p4ice shop.

Ocado does just fine though, and are rarely the cheapest choice.

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trebligdivad
15 hours ago
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I sometime use Ocado in the UK, and it's 'OK' but it's certainly not at the cheap end of the market. I more often use a traditional supermarkets home delivery service where it's manually picked; those supermarkets have the advantage of having very little infrastructure overhead in the picking - they mostly use their existing stores and pick at quiet times/over night. Ocado has to run entire warehouses just for this task. Ocado can only work with packed goods - not weighed vegetables for example - which the hand pickers in store can do, albeit whether they do it well is down to luck and the mood of the picker.
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calcifer
8 hours ago
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> Ocado can only work with packed goods - not weighed vegetables for example

Not quite. Packed yes, but for many vegetables they have both item count and weight-based packages, e.g. "4 potatoes" vs "1kg potatoes".

I think that strikes the right balance.

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trebligdivad
3 hours ago
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Interesting, however in my case we have someone who eats a banana each day with breakfast. There's no way to buy 7 bananas in your weekly shop!
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adxl
14 hours ago
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Whenn I lived in Atlanta the Krogers each had a nickname. There was disco Kroger because of its disco ball. There was murder Kroger that purportedly had been the site of a murder.

This I guess is Robo Kroger.

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softwaredoug
14 hours ago
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In Charlottesville all the Krogers are quite different.

A weird, dark, maze-like warehouse-feeling Kroger that just closed.

We have a really nice Kroger a bit outside town. I always think of it as the Gucci Kroger.

A college-kid, cheaper Kroger close to the center of town. The cheaper version of the Harris Teeter nearby.

There's as much variation in individual Krogers as between other grocery chains!

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rsynnott
1 hour ago
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> There was disco Kroger because of its disco ball.

... As in the supermarket had a disco ball? Was it spinning?

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pinkmuffinere
12 hours ago
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I like to imagine that whenn is like iff -- ie, when would mean "when and only when", lol
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bediger4000
14 hours ago
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A common practice in Denver. Kroger's local brand is "King Soopers". There's Scary Soopers, Queen Soopers, and ironically El Safeway and Soviet Safeway.
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omgJustTest
15 hours ago
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3 CFCs (robotics centers) closed, 5 continuing operating [1]. Initial commitment was 20 & Kroger is paying 350m$ to compensate the partner.

I don't know what success looks like but it's probably fair to say they were over-extended by roughly 30-40%.

https://chainstoreage.com/kroger-pay-350-million-automation-...

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bombcar
15 hours ago
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I remember a glowing video about this thing (by Tom Scott maybe?) and being confused how it could ever compete with humans being paid slave wages.

Guess I was right.

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petesergeant
9 hours ago
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You were not, this works just fine in the UK
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slashyellow
6 hours ago
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I mean, it's a fiercely competitive market and they've managed to stake out a position, which is great and all, but to be blunt they have a market share of ~2.1%, and they've consistently unprofitable. And they've been at this for like 20 years.

Honestly the main problem seems to be most people just don't like buying certain items online, and that doesn't seem to be changing quickly. If Covid didn't break people out of that, I can't think of anything that will.

And FWIW, I think for an online only supermarket you'd expect their website to be pretty amazing, but their competitors are just as good.

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nacozarina
13 hours ago
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all it takes is one junior executive gets caught by one chinese robot saleswoman, and the next thing you know…
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liquidise
15 hours ago
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Good news for blue collar workers, tough for investors. The bean-counting dream of LLM's and Robotics remains, but until ChatGPT is placing your order at Mcdonalds drive-thrus and Amazon is laying off warehouse associates en masse, i'd say that last 5% is still taking 95% of the time.
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markbao
15 hours ago
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McDonald’s is an interesting example because they’re increasingly replacing cashiers with kiosks. Robotics/LLMs seem to have diminishing returns compared to that in the order taking realm.
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bcrosby95
14 hours ago
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I love it when people invent things to force everyone perform self service and call it 'progress'.
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mlrtime
12 hours ago
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I like it, I order on my phone before I get to the place and just pick it up.

Any reason to like the old way is just nostalgia in my head.

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NegativeLatency
8 hours ago
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There are pros, but ultimately we’re all still apes, we need human interaction and contact. It can’t be completely replaced with technology.
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pbalau
47 minutes ago
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> we need human interaction and contact

Indeed, but not at McDonalds.

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missingdays
5 hours ago
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Is ordering a burger really human interaction and contact?
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hobo_mark
4 hours ago
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Do you really need a human to ask whether you want fries with that?
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rajamaka
14 hours ago
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I usually see people preferring to use the self service in McDonalds or supermarkets when given the option of either, so the consumer must find some benefit to it.
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bcrosby95
10 hours ago
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I always choose self service because that's where the volume is. I can wait in one of any Costco lines with 4 carts and 1 person checking them through, or I can wait in the line with 4 carts and 6 self service checkouts.

Despite the math working out insanely well for self service checkout, sometimes the gamble still doesn't pay off and the single employee burns through 4 carts faster than 6 self service checkout kiosks.

Costco does pretty good here though, drug stores go slow as hell.

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NegativeLatency
8 hours ago
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I have a mental list of who the fast/slow checkout people are at my store, would be curious to see numbers but I think the fast people are more than 2x as fast as the slower ones.
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tstrimple
49 minutes ago
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I really appreciate the ability at Costco to scan with my phone as we pick up items. Check out becomes a breeze. But I absolutely hate self-checkout grocery stores unless I just have a few items. The idea that I'll run a cart full of groceries through self-checkout is insane. Not only do they routinely not have accurate bar codes requiring some sort of lookup from an attendant. I'll have things which require human clerks to "approve" anyway like wine. In addition, my self-checkout lines don't have the full conveyors like the human checkout lines. So everything has to be moved from cart directly to bag and there isn't enough bag space so you have to start putting bags into the cart which still has groceries. The whole thing is a mess and I hate it.
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glitchc
15 hours ago
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Sure, but not the kitchen staff, which is where the robotics dream is supposed to take you.
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al_borland
15 hours ago
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I watched a show over 20 years ago that showed a fully automated robotic kitchen at McDonalds. I can only assumed they have continued to evolved it and perfect it as the technology has improved. I think it’s simply a question of when it hits the tipping point on cost.

There may also be an issue with logistics when it comes to making sure the machines keep running if there is a problem. They can barely keep the ice cream machines running.

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SoftTalker
12 hours ago
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I imagine kitchen robots are harder than they might sound. Kitchens are rough environments for machines. They are hot, greasy, and steamy. And everything that comes in contact with food needs to be able to be taken apart, washed, and sanitized at least daily.
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markbao
14 hours ago
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True, that’s a good example of the commenter’s “last 5% is the 95%”
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SoftTalker
12 hours ago
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Yeah the introduction of the kiosks is what tipped the scale and stopped me going to McDonalds. And I used to eat there a couple of times a week at least.
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al_borland
15 hours ago
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McDonald’s is also pushing their app pretty hard with lots of incentives.
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kulahan
15 hours ago
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I hate those stupid things so much. They're really, as far as I can tell, just moving all labor to the kitchen and drive-thru, while considering the dining area an afterthought.

Maybe they're just following the trends their own numbers tell them are happening, but I don't think they trust robotics enough to put an area they truly care about under its purview just yet.

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SoftTalker
12 hours ago
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Even 30 years ago more than half the sales at a McDonalds were in the drive through. Some new McDonalds don’t have much of an inside dining room at all anymore, while having multiple drive through lanes.
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gedy
15 hours ago
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I don't know what they are thinking, the kiosks are not cheap to install or maintain, they are buggy, and they've put me off from going into McDs anymore. The In-N-Out nearby is cheaper, friendlier with plenty of employees working, (and better quality), so not sure what McD's end game is here.
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markbao
14 hours ago
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I don’t like them either. The UX is annoying and it’s way too large. The benefit is that I get to see more options than can fit on the screens and they have photos, but still in person just seems better.

But I’ve read they’re effective, apparently, in consistently upselling compared to a human, so I’m guessing that’s their play.

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gilbetron
15 hours ago
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Taco Bell by us has AI order taking and it is amazing. Quick, always has been getting it correct, and easy to understand. Granted, it's probably very abusable, but for someone just wanting to put in a quick order it is way better than a person.
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Havoc
15 hours ago
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TIL Ocado is supposed to be an automation/robotics co.

I associate it more with delivery vans that seem to be in no particular hurry (unlike uber eats / DPD / UPS etc)

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rcxdude
6 hours ago
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They see themselves as a tech company, but fundamentally they've only really cracked their own grocery business, I think.
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nextworddev
12 hours ago
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it's just a wheeled bot that's driven by a joystick by some offshore person /s
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analog31
11 hours ago
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It looks like they got the robots together but forgot the groceries.
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brookst
15 hours ago
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Weird headline, totally unsupported by the article.

According to the article, there were several strategic blunders, including trying the model outside of cities where lack of density cut against it. Plus the apparent dismissal any value their 2700 retail locations could provide.

As far as I can tell, Kroger didn’t acknowledge anything except a change in strategy.

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irjustin
15 hours ago
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Doesn't that support the article? their bet was massive robotics in centralized warehouses, but that turns out not to be profitable.

Unsure how the headlines doesn't align. Maybe it's different than what I'm seeing:

> Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

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AndrewKemendo
15 hours ago
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Notable that the reasons for failure to meet benchmarks was that the locations were too far away, and that they are moving to the “Micro-Fulfillment Center” approach that Amazon is doing at Whole Foods. This is exactly what everyone predicted when Amazon bought WF - turn it into a grocery FC.

That makes sense to me.

Feels like we’re going to have warehouse scale vending machines in cities, and delivery bots taking them from the warehouse-vending-machine to the customer.

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recursive
15 hours ago
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I like being able to see the thing I'm going to get and holding it in my hand.
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aerostable_slug
15 hours ago
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I like not going to the store more.

Because tips are important to the income of delivery shoppers, I find that I generally get good produce selections. It might be difficult to transition that particular incentive to robots, but the point is that delivery items don't have to suck.

The only thing I really still pick out by hand every time are beef briskets. Pork shoulders tend to be uniform enough that randomly picking a cryovac works out, but there's a good bit of variation in brisket that makes a difference with the final product, at least when the brisket is prepared with a smoker. YMMV

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mlrtime
12 hours ago
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>Because tips are important to the income of delivery shoppers, I find that I generally get good produce selections

Wait, you tip to get a good selection of produce to be delivered to you? This is very bizarre to me.

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simmonmt
15 minutes ago
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I'm not normally a fan of tips, but this seems like a reasonable use of one to me. The picker isn't paid on the shininess of the apple they bring you -- they're paid to pick as quickly as they can from what's on offer. The potential for a tip incentivises them to go beyond that requirement -- to pick the nicest/freshest rather than the most convenient.
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aerostable_slug
11 hours ago
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Yep. Instacart. I work from home and sometimes I don't want to go to the store (or it would be difficult because I'm on Zoom/Teams a lot), but I need vegetables, meat, milk, etc. for cooking.

With Instacart & Costco memberships and also ordering from the local discount grocers, I can get food delivered for less than it costs to actually go to the mainstream grocery stores like Von's, and I don't get bruised eggplants or cilantro that's already going bad. The drivers/shoppers are generally quite good at picking out items that can lead to higher tips (that or they're just in it for the love of good produce, but either way you can often tell they're not randomly loading the bags).

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recursive
14 hours ago
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Delivery shoppers wouldn't be able to pick out the good stuff if it's delivered by drone or whatever.
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aerostable_slug
11 hours ago
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They could if there are human pickers.

In any event, delivery doesn't always mean the worst of the produce aisle, and while I noted that the incentive of tips might not transfer to robots, keeping repeat customers might be enough incentive for a way to be found to not make robots and grocery synonymous with only frozen food. That might mean human pickers; better automation on the food selection system; pre-inspected, washed and packaged fruits & veggies; etc.

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AlotOfReading
15 hours ago
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The grocery industry relentlessly optimizes for implicit choices over expressed preferences. Nobody is asking for misters, colored lighting, skeumorphic veggie bins, and wide open sightlines in the produce aisle. Stores do it because customers buy more when they do. The same thing will happen to in-store shopping if consumer preferences swing ever swing that way instead.
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acessoproibido
15 hours ago
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I'll believe it when i see it
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websiteapi
15 hours ago
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this kind of stuff is still probably a few orders of magnitude too expensive per unit cost.

I'm also skeptical it'll ever work in America due to the general lack of density.

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Frye
15 hours ago
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Also worth mentioning Kroger just lost a multi million dollar lawsuit in Florida after one of their delivery trucks hit a cyclist. I wonder if this has anything to do with it as well.
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rolandog
15 hours ago
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"Something, something, ... omelettes ... few eggs" -- mouthpiece from corporation that lobbies to cut regulations
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Dylan16807
14 hours ago
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I can't find the story, but if it's a human-driven truck there's nothing special about a vehicle hitting someone. Everyone that drives a vehicle is accepting that risk. It's not heartless to have vehicles. And I don't even know what particular regulations you're trying to imply.
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Frye
14 hours ago
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Implying that Kroger announced that it would shut down its Florida operations shortly after losing the lawsuit with the cyclist. Nothing more.

Here is the story

https://www.facebook.com/100064532630592/posts/pfbid0DYoPXet...

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Dylan16807
13 hours ago
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I wasn't saying you implied anything. I was saying rolandog seemed to go beyond general cynicism about corporations to an unreasonable complaint.

Looking at the details, I could say Kroger shouldn't have hired her but I'd rather say that if she was dangerous enough to not hire as a driver then her license shouldn't have been reinstated in the first place. (Though that's if "couldn’t recall if her driver’s license was suspended just months before he hired her" means it actually was suspended, and Bike Law isn't doing some trickery with wording.)

Either way good they paid out.

For the shutdown, I do think it's a coincidence. They're shutting down facilities in multiple states and that lawsuit isn't even a tenth of a percent of the relevant costs.

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rolandog
1 hour ago
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Thanks for correcting me, I would've sworn this was about a truck with autopilot. So, if I'm understanding it correctly: although the driver was at fault, there were systematic failures in training personnel that would've prevented an unqualified driver from driving the truck?
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gurumeditations
15 hours ago
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Having FCs an hour away from your customers, packing groceries into a tiny truck with one or two employees per truck, the trucks alone would never pay for themselves let alone the FCs. This was obvious from the get go and it’s why Walmart has been the only one successfully doing grocery pickup and delivery for 6 years. Every store is an FC and they’re all within 20 minutes of their customers.
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sethhochberg
12 hours ago
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There are examples of the warehouse-based model working, but they clearly require both density _and_ mindshare. Its not clear Kroger had either based on the other comments in here. FreshDirect in NYC has been operating since the early 2000s with a fleet of tiny trucks with a couple of employees in them and a giant FC with essentially zero retail footprint.

(As an aside, they also have some of the best meat and produce you can get in the city without going to a farmers market. So many retail grocery stores here lack loading docks, the food handling getting from the truck to the sidewalk to the basement of the store to the shelves is really, really rough especially during the summer months. Skipping that and going warehouse-to-home has advantages)

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