Ask HN: Should "I asked $AI, and it said" replies be forbidden in HN guidelines?
448 points
3 hours ago
| 113 comments
| HN
As various LLMs become more and more popular, so does comments with "I asked Gemini, and Gemini said ....".

While the guidelines were written (and iterated on) during a different time, it seems like it might be time to have a discussion about if those sort of comments should be welcomed on HN or not.

Some examples:

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46164360

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46200460

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46080064

Personally, I'm on HN for the human conversation, and large LLM-generated texts just get in the way of reading real text from real humans (assumed, at least).

What do you think? Should responses that basically boil down to "I asked $LLM about $X, and here is what $LLM said:" be allowed on HN, and the guidelines updated to state that people shouldn't critique it (similar to other guidelines currently), or should a new guideline be added to ask people from refrain from copy-pasting large LLM responses into the comments, or something else completely?

gortok
3 hours ago
[-]
While we will never be able to get folks to stop using AI to “help” them shape their replies, it’s super annoying to have folks think that by using AI that they’re doing others a favor. If I wanted to know what an AI thinks I’ll ask it. I’m here because I want to know what other people think.

At this point, I make value judgments when folks use AI for their writing, and will continue to do so.

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sbrother
2 hours ago
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I strongly agree with this sentiment and I feel the same way.

The one exception for me though is when non-native English speakers want to participate in an English language discussion. LLMs produce by far the most natural sounding translations nowadays, but they imbue that "AI style" onto their output. I'm not sure what the solution here is because it's great for non-native speakers to be able to participate, but I find myself discarding any POV that was obviously expressed with AI.

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SAI_Peregrinus
42 minutes ago
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If I want to participate in a conversation in a language I don't understand I use machine translation. I include a disclaimer that I've used machine translation & hope that gets translated. I also include the input to the machine translator, so that if someone who understands both languages happens to read it they might notice any problems.
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parliament32
1 hour ago
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> I'm not sure what the solution here

The solution is to use a translator rather than a hallucinatory text generator. Google Translate is exceptionally good at maintaining naturalness when you put a multi-sentence/multi-paragraph block through it -- if you're fluent in another language, try it out!

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smallerfish
36 minutes ago
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Google Translate doesn't hold a candle to LLMs at translating between even common languages.
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akavi
42 minutes ago
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You are aware that insofar as AI chat apps are "hallucinatory text generator(s)", then so is Google Translate, right?

(while AFAICT Google hasn't explicitly said so, it's almost certainly also powered by an autoregressive transformer model, just like ChatGPT)

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swiftcoder
38 minutes ago
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> it's almost certainly also powered by an autoregressive transformer model, just like ChatGPT

The objective of that model, however, is quite different to that of an LLM.

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parliament32
5 minutes ago
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I have seen Google Translate hallucinate exactly zero times over thousands of queries over the years. Meanwhile, LLMs emit garbage roughly 1/3 of the time, in my experience. Can you provide an example of Translate hallucinating something?
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kps
2 hours ago
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When I occasionally use MTL into a language I'm not fluent in, I say so. This makes the reader aware that there may be errors unknown to me that make the writing diverge from my intent.
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sejje
2 hours ago
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I think multi -language forums with AI translators is a cool idea.

You post in your own language, and the site builds a translation for everyone, but they can also see your original etc.

I think building it as a forum feature rather than a browser feature is maybe worth.

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pjerem
2 hours ago
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You know that this is the most hated feature of reddit ? (because the translations are shitty so maybe that can be improved)
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subscribed
14 minutes ago
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OTOH I am participating in a wonderful discord server community, primarily Italians and Brazilians, with other nationalities sprinkled in.

We heavily use connected translating apps and it feels really great. It would be such a massive pita to copy every message somewhere outside, having to translate it and then back.

Now, discussions usually follow the sun, and when someone not speaking, say, Portuguese wants to join in, they usually use English (sometimes German or Dutch), and just join.

We know it's not perfect but it works. Without the embedded translation? It absolutely wouldn't.

I also used pretty heavily a telegram channel with similar setup, but it was even better, with transparent auto translation.

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sejje
2 hours ago
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I didn't, but I don't think it would work well on an established English-only forum.

It should be an intentional place you choose, and probably niche, not generic in topic like Reddit.

I'm also open to the thought that it's a terrible idea.

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monerozcash
37 minutes ago
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I think the audience that would be interested in this is vanishingly small, there exist relatively few conversations online that would be meaningfully improved by this.

I also suspect that automatically translating a forum would tend to attract a far worse ratio of high-effort to low-effort contributions than simply accepting posts in a specific language. For example, I'd expect programmers who don't speak any english to have on average a far lower skill level than those who know at least basic english.

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debugnik
51 minutes ago
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That's Twitter currently, in a way. I've seen and had short conversations in which each person speaks their own language and trusts the other to use the built-in translation feature.
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guizadillas
2 hours ago
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Non-native English speaker here:

Just use a spell checker and that's it, you don't need LLMs to translate for you if your target is learning the language

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coffeefirst
1 hour ago
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Better yet, I prefer to read some unusual word choices from someone who’s clearly put a lot of work into learning English than a robot.
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dhosek
52 minutes ago
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Indeed, this sort of “writing with an accent” can illuminate interesting aspects of both English and the speakers’ native language that I find fascinating.
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buildbot
1 hour ago
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Yep, it’s a 2 way learning street - you can learn new things from non native speakers, and they can learn from you as well. Any kind of auto Translation removed this. (It’s still important to have for non fluent people though!)
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emaro
2 hours ago
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Agreed, but if someone uses LLMs to help them write in English, that's very different from the "I asked $AI, and it said" pattern.
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SoftTalker
39 minutes ago
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I honestly think that very few people here are completely non-conversant in English. For better or worse, it's the dominant language. Amost everyone who doesn't speak English natively learns it in school.

I'm fine with reading slightly incorrect English from a non-native speaker. I'd rather see that than an LLM interpretation.

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justin66
2 hours ago
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As AIs get good enough, dealing with someone struggling with English will begin to feel like a breath of fresh air.
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tensegrist
2 hours ago
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one solution that appeals to me (and which i have myself used in online spaces where i don't speak the language) is to write in a language you can speak and let people translate it themselves however they wish

i don't think it is likely to catch on, though, outside of culturally multilingual environments

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internetter
2 hours ago
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> i don't think it is likely to catch on, though, outside of culturally multilingual environments

It can if the platform has built in translation with an appropriate disclosure! for instance on Twitter or Mastodon.

https://blog.thms.uk/2023/02/mastodon-translation-options

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AnimalMuppet
2 hours ago
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Maybe they should say "AI used for translation only". And maybe us English speakers who don't care what AI "thinks" should still be tolerant of it for translations.
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jampa
20 minutes ago
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I wrote about this recently. You need to prompt better if you don't want AI to flatten your original tone into corporate speak:

https://jampauchoa.substack.com/p/writing-with-ai-without-th...

TL;DR: Ask for a line edit, "Line edit this Slack message / HN comment." It goes beyond fixing grammar (because it improves flow) without killing your meaning or adding AI-isms.

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hotsauceror
2 hours ago
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I agree with this sentiment.

When I hear "ChatGPT says..." on some topic at work, I interpret that as "Let me google that for you, only I neither care nor respect you enough to bother confirming that that answer is correct."

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giancarlostoro
22 minutes ago
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You can have the same problem with Googling things, LLMs usually form conclusions I align with when I do the independent research. Google isn't anywhere near as good as it was 5 years ago. All the years of crippling their search ranking system and suppressing results has caught up to them to the point most LLMs are Google replacements.
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ndsipa_pomu
17 minutes ago
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To my mind, it's like someone saying "I asked Fred down at the pub and he said...". It's someone stupidly repeating something that's likely stupid anyway.
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JeremyNT
2 hours ago
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In a work context, for me at least, this class of reply can actually be pretty useful. It indicates somebody already minimally investigated a thing and may have at least some information about it, but they're hedging on certainty by letting me know "the robots say."

It's a huge asterisk to avoid stating something as a fact, but indicates something that could/should be explored further.

(This would be nonsense if they sent me an email or wrote an issue up this way or something, but in an ad-hoc conversation it makes sense to me)

I think this is different than on HN or other message boards, it's not really used by people to hedge here, if they don't actually personally believe something to be the case (or have a question to ask) why are they posting anyway? No value there.

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lanstin
30 minutes ago
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Yeah if the person doing it is smart I would trust they had the reasonable prompt and ruled out flagrant BS answers. Sometimes the key thing is just to know the name of the thing for the answer. It's equally as good/annoying as reporting what Google search gives for the answer. I guess I assume mostly people will do the AI query/search and then decide to share the answer based on how good or useful it seems.
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gardenhedge
2 hours ago
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I disagree. It's not a potential avenue for further investigation. Imo ai should always be consulted
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OptionOfT
2 hours ago
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But I'm not interested in the AI's point of view. I have done that myself.

I want to hear your thoughts, based on your unique experience, not the AI's which is an average of the experience of the data it ingested. The things that are unique will not surface because they aren't seen enough times.

Your value is not in copy-pasting. It's in your experience.

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zby
54 minutes ago
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What if I agree with what AI wrote? Should I try to hide that it was generated?
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MarkusQ
42 minutes ago
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Did you agree with it before the AI wrote it though (in which case, what was the point of involving the AI)?

If you agree with it after seeing it, but wouldn't have thought to write it yourself, what reason is there to believe you wouldn't have found some other, contradictory AI output just as agreeable? Since one of the big objections to AI output is that they uncritically agree with nonsense from the user, scycophancy-squared is even more objectionable. It's worth taking the effort to avoid falling into this trap.

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zby
2 minutes ago
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Well - the point of involving the AI is that very often it explains my intuitions way better than I can. It instantiates them and fills in all the details, sometimes showing new ways.

I find the second paragraphs contradictory - either you fear that I would agree with random stuff that the AI writes or you believe that the sycophant AI is writing what I believe. I like to think that I can recognise good arguments, but if I am wrong here - then why would you prefer my writing from an LLM generated one?

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subscribed
28 minutes ago
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No, but this is different.

"I asked an $LLM and it said" is very different than "in my opinion".

Your opinion may be supported by any sources you want as long as it's a genuine opinion (yours), presumably something you can defend as it's your opinion.

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JoshTriplett
48 minutes ago
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If I wanted to consult an AI, I'd consult an AI. "I consulted an AI and pasted in its answer" is worse than worthless. "I consulted an AI and carefully checked the result" might have value.
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SunshineTheCat
48 minutes ago
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I am just sad that I can no longer use em dashes without people immediately assuming what I wrote was AI. :(
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MarkusQ
40 minutes ago
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Go ahead, use em—let the haters stew in their own typographically-impoverished purgatory.
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neltnerb
40 minutes ago
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I think what's important here is to reduce harm even if it's still a little annoying. Because if you try to completely ban mentioning something is LLM written you'll just have people doing it without a disclaimer...

Yes, comments of this nature are bad, annoying, and should be downvoted as they have minimal original thought, take minimal effort, and are often directly inaccurate. I'd still rather they have a disclaimer to make it easier to identify them!

Further, entire articles submitted to HN are clearly written by a LLM yet get over a hundred upvotes before people notice whether there's a disclaimer or not. These do not get caught quickly, and someone clicking on the link will likely generate ad revenue that incentives people to continue doing it.

LLM comments without a disclaimer should be avoided, and submitted articles written by a LLM should be flagged ASAP to avoid abuse since by the time someone clicks the link it's too late.

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SoftTalker
45 minutes ago
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Agree and I think it might also be useful to have that be grounds for a shadowban if we start seeing this getting out of control. I'm not interested, even slightly, in what an LLM has to say about a thread on HN. If I see an account posting an obvious LLM copy/paste, I'm not interested in seeing anything from that account either. Maybe a warning on the first offense is fair, but it should not be tolerated or this site will just drown in the slop.
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Balgair
1 hour ago
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Aside:

When someone says: "Source?", is that kinda the same thing?

Like, I'm just going to google the thing the person is asking for, same as they can.

Should asking for sources be banned too?

Personally, I think not. HN is better, I feel, when people can challenge the assertions of others and ask for the proof, even though that proof is easy enough to find for all parties.

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officeplant
33 minutes ago
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>Should asking for sources be banned too?

IMO, HN commenters used to at least police themselves more and provide sources in their comments when making claims. It was what used to separate HN and Reddit for me when it came to response quality.

But yes it is rude to just respond "source?" unless they are making some wild batshit claims.

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whimsicalism
2 hours ago
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I think there's well done and usually unnoticeable and poorly done and insulting. I don't agree that the two are always the same, but I think lots of people might think they are doing the former but are not aware enough to realize they are doing the latter.
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amelius
1 hour ago
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"I asked AI and it said basically the same as you."
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that_guy_iain
8 minutes ago
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There will be many cases you won't even notice. When people know how to use AI to help with their writing, it's not noticable.
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BrtByte
14 minutes ago
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HN is the mix of personal experience, weird edge cases, and even the occasional hot take. That's what makes HN valuable
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sejje
2 hours ago
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This is the only reasonable take.

It's not worth polluting human-only spaces, particularly top tier ones like HN, with generated content--even when it's accurate.

Luckily I've not found a lot of that here. That which I do has usually been downvoted plenty.

Maybe we could have a new flag option, which became visible to everyone with enough "AI" votes so you could skip reading it.

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manmal
22 minutes ago
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What LLM generate is an amalgamation of human content they have been trained on. I get that you want what actual humans think, but that’s also basically a weighted amalgamation. Real, actual insight, is incredibly rare and I doubt you see much of it on HN (sorry guys; I’ll live with the downvotes).
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fwip
26 minutes ago
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I'd love to see that for article submissions, as well.
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delfinom
1 hour ago
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It's kinda funny how we once in internet culture had "lmgtfy" links because people weren't just searching google instead of asking questions.

But now people are vomiting chatgpt responses instead of linking to chatgpt.

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subscribed
19 minutes ago
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No, linking to chatgpt is not a response. For some sort of questions it (which model exactly is it?) might be better, for some might be worse.
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deadbabe
1 hour ago
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On a similar sentiment, I’m sick and tired of people telling others to go google stuff.

The point of asking on a public forum is to get socially relatable human answers.

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delecti
30 minutes ago
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Agreed, with a caveat. If someone is asking for an objective answer which could be easily found with a search, and hasn't indicated why they haven't taken that approach, it really comes across as laziness and offloading their work onto other people. Like, "what are the best restaurants in an area" is a good question for human input; "how do you deserialize a JSON payload" should include some explanation for what they've tried, including searches.
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subscribed
21 minutes ago
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Yeah, but you get two extremes.

Most often I see these answers under posts like "what's the longest river or earth", or "is Bogota a capital of Venezuela?"

Like. Seriously. It often takes MORE time to post this sort of lazy question than actually look it up. Literally paste their question into $search_engine and get 10 the same answers on the first page.

Actually sometimes telling a person like this "just Google it" is beneficial in two ways: it helps the poster develop/train their own search skills, and it may gently nudge someone else into trying that approach first, too. At the same time slowing the raise of the extremely low effort/quality posts.

But sure, sometimes you get the other kind. Very rarely.

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jedbrooke
1 hour ago
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I’ve seen so many SO and other forum posts where the first comment is someone smugly saying “just google it, silly”.

Only that, I’m not the one who posted the original question, I DID google (well DDG) it, and the results led me to someone asking the same question as me, but it only had that one useless reply

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zby
58 minutes ago
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I strongly disagree - when I post something that AI wrote I am doing it because it explains my thoughts better than I can - it digs deeper and finds the support for intuitions that I cannot explain nicely. I quote the AI - because I feel this is fair - if you ban this you would just lose the information that it was generated.
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SunshineTheCat
46 minutes ago
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This is like saying "I use a motorized scooter at walmart, not because I can't walk, but because it 'walks' better than I can."
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officeplant
32 minutes ago
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> if you ban this you would just lose the information that it was generated.

The argument is that the information it generated is just noise, and not valuable to the conversation thread at all.

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i80and
18 minutes ago
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This is... I'll go with "dystopian". If you're not sure you can properly explain an idea, you should think about it more deeply.
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jon-wood
7 minutes ago
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Or simply not participate in that conversation. It’s not obligatory to have an opinion on all subjects.
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dhosek
54 minutes ago
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Meh. Might as well encourage people to post links to search results then too.
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simianparrot
56 minutes ago
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You have to be joking
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flkiwi
1 hour ago
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I read comments citing AI as essentially equivalent to "I ran a $searchengine search and here is the most relevant result." It's not equivalent, but it has one identical issue and one new-ish one:

1. If I wanted to run a web search, I would have done so 2. People behave as if they believe AI results are authoritative, which they are not

On the other hand, a ban could result in a technical violation in a conversation about AI responses where providing examples of those responses is entirely appropriate.

I feel like we're having a larger conversation here, one where we are watching etiquette evolve in realtime. This is analogous to "Should we ban people from wearing bluetooth headsets in the coffee shop?" in the 00s: people are demonstrating a new behavior that is disrupting social norms but the actual violation is really that the person looks like a dork. To that end, I'd probably be more for public shaming, potentially a clear "we aren't banning it but please don't be an AI goober and don't just regurgitate AI output", more than I would support a ban.

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giancarlostoro
12 minutes ago
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> 2. People behave as if they believe AI results are authoritative, which they are not

Web search has the same issue. If you don't validate it, you wind up in the same problem.

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charcircuit
51 minutes ago
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>If I wanted to run a web search, I would have done so

While true, many times people don't want to do this because they are lazy. If they just instead opened up chatgpt they could have instantly gotten their answer. It results in a waste of everyone's time.

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MarkusQ
33 minutes ago
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This begs the question. You are assuming they wanted an LLM generated response, but were to lazy to generate one. Isn't it more likely that the reason they didn't use an LLM is that they didn't want an LLM response, so giving them one is...sort of clueless?

If you asked someone how to make French fries and they replied with a map-pin-drop on the nearest McDonald's, would you feel satisfied with the answer?

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charcircuit
11 minutes ago
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It's more like someone asks if there are McDonald's in San Francisco, and then someone else searches "mcdonald's san francisco" on Google Maps and then replies with the result. It would have been faster for the person to just type their question elsewhere and get the result back immediately instead of someone else doing it for them.
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allenu
8 minutes ago
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I think a lot of times, people are here just to have a conversation. I wouldn't go so far as to say someone who is pontificating and could have done a web search to verify their thoughts and opinions is being lazy.

This might be a case of just different standards for communication here. One person might want the absolute facts and assumes everyone posting should do their due diligence to verify everything they say, but others are okay with just shooting the shit (to varying degrees).

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officeplant
29 minutes ago
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> If they just instead opened up chatgpt they could have instantly gotten their answer.

Great now we've wasted time & material resources for a possibly wrong and hallucinated answer. What part of this is beneficial to anyone?

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droopyEyelids
35 minutes ago
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Well put. There are two sides of the coin: the lazy questioner who expects others to do the work researching what they would not, and the lazy/indulgent answerer who basically LMGTFY's it.

Ideally we would require people who ask questions to say what they've researched so far, and where they got stuck. Then low-effort LLM or search engine result pages wouldn't be such a reasonable answer.

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Terr_
33 minutes ago
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Agreed on the similar-but-worse comparison to to the laziest possible web-searches of yesteryear.

To introspect a bit, I think the rote regurgitation aspect is the lesser component. It's just rude in a conventional way. The implied truth/authority is the more-dangerous and main driver of disgust.

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TRiG_Ireland
14 minutes ago
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As Tom Scott has said, people telling you what AI told them is worse than people describing their dreams. It definitely does not usefully contribute to the conversation.

Small exception if the user is actually talking about AI, and quoting some AI output to illustrate their point, in which case the AI output should be a very small section of the post as a whole.

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stack_framer
45 minutes ago
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I'm here to learn what other people think, so I'm in favor of not seeing AI comments here.

That said, I've also grown exceedingly tired of everyone saying, "I see an em dash, therefore that comment must have come from AI!"

I happen to like em dashes. They're easy to type on macOS, and they're useful in helping me express what I'm thinking—even if I might be using them incorrectly.

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tptacek
1 hour ago
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They already are against the rules here.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

(This is a broader restriction than the one you're looking for).

It's important to understand that not all of the rules of HN are on the Guidelines page. We're a common law system; think of the Guidelines as something akin to a constitution. Dan and Tom's moderation comments form the "judicial precedent" of the site; you'll find things in there like "no Internet psychiatric diagnosis" and "not owing $publicfigure anything but owing this community more" and "no nationalist flamewar" and "no hijacking other people's Show HN threads to promote your own thing". None of those are on the Guidelines page either, but they're definitely in the guidelines here.

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Rendello
1 hour ago
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This is the correct answer. If you're curious about what other sorts of things are disallowed by common law, look at dang and tomhow's comments that say "please don't":

dang: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

tomhow: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

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Akronymus
1 hour ago
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> This is the correct answer.

Where does that saying come from? I keep seeing it in a lot of different contexts but it somehow feels off to me in a way I can't really explain.

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sfink
10 minutes ago
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It's not "off" unless you're simply reading it literally. If you do that, then it's a verbose way of saying "I agree". But the connotations are something like "I agree, strongly, and in particular am implying (possibly just for effect) that there are objectively right and wrong answers to this question and the other answers are wrong." The main difference is the statement that there is an objective answer to what people may be treating as a subjective question.

If it helps, you can think of it as saying more about possible disagreeing opinions than about the specific opinion expressed. "This answer is right, and the people who disagree are 'objectively' wrong."

It took me some time to catch on to this. It can certainly be jarring or obnoxious, though sometimes it can be helpful to say "yo people, you're treating this like a subjective opinion, but there are objective reasons to conclude X."

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Rendello
5 minutes ago
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I (the comment writer), agree that it's jarring and a bit obnoxious. There were three factors that led me to write it anyway, which I've mentioned here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46209137

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Rendello
13 minutes ago
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It's the first time I've ever commented that, and I was trying to figure out a way to omit it. I don't like that sort of phrase either, I especially hate comments that just go "This.", but they're rare on HN so I'm in good company.

Ultimately, I put it because:

- It was the most directly informative comment on the thread;

- It had been downvoted (greyed out) to the very bottom of the thread; and

- I wanted to express my support before making a fairly orthogonal comment without whiplashing everyone.

The whiplashing concern is the problem I run into most generally. It can be hard to reply to someone with a somewhat related idea without making it seem like you're contradicting them, particularly if they're being dogpiled on with downvotes or comments. I'd love to hear other ways to go about this, I'm always trying to improve my communication.

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neom
51 minutes ago
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Not addressing your question directly, but when I got flagged last year I emailed Dan and this was the reply: " John Edgar <je@h4x.club> Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 8:08 AM to Hacker

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36735275

Just curious if chatGPT is actually formally banned on HN?

Hacker News <hn@ycombinator.com> Sat, Jul 15, 2023, 4:12 PM to me

Yes, they're banned. I don't know about "formally" because that word can mean different things and a lot of the practice of HN is informal. But we've definitely never allowed bots or generated comments. Here are some old posts referring to that.

dang

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35984470 (May 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35869698 (May 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35210503 (March 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35206303 (March 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33950747 (Dec 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33911426 (Dec 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32571890 (Aug 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27558392 (June 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26693590 (April 2021) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22744611 (April 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22427782 (Feb 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21774797 (Dec 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19325914 (March 2019)"

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TomasBM
1 hour ago
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Yes.

The pre-LLM equivalent would be: "I googled this, and here's what the first result says," and copying the text without providing any additional commentary.

Everyone should be free to read, interpret and formulate their comments however they'd like.

But if a person outsources their entire thinking to an LLM/AI, they don't have anything to contribute to the conversation themselves.

And if the HN community wanted pure LLM/AI comments, they'd introduce such bots in the threads.

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masfuerte
2 hours ago
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Does it need a rule? These comments already get heavily down-voted. People who can't take a hint aren't going to read the rules.
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eskori
2 hours ago
[-]
If HN mods think the rule should be applied whatever the community thinks (for now), then yes, it needs a rule.

As I see it, down-voting is an expression of the community posture, rules are an expression of the "space" posture. It's up to the space to determine if there is something relevant enough to include it in the rules.

And again, as I see it, community should also have a way to at least suggest modifications of the rules.

I agree with you in "People who can't take a hint aren't going to read the rules". But as they say: "Ignorance of the law does not exempt one from compliance."

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tptacek
19 minutes ago
[-]
Again: there already is a rule against this.
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rsync
2 hours ago
[-]
This is my view.

I tend to dislike these type of posts but a properly designed and functioning vote mechanism should take care of it.

If not, it is the voting mechanism that should be tuned - not new rules.

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BrtByte
13 minutes ago
[-]
HN tends to self-regulate pretty well
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notahacker
19 minutes ago
[-]
I'm veering towards this being the answer. People downvote the superfluous "I don't have any particular thoughts on this, but here's what a chatbot has to say" comments all the time. But also, there are a lot of discussions around AI on HN, and in some of those cases posting verbatim responses from current generation chatbots is a pretty good indication of they can give accurate responses when posed problems of this type or they still make these mistakes or this is what happens when there's too much RHLF or a silly prompt...
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al_borland
24 minutes ago
[-]
I think it helps having guidelines and not relying on user sentiment alone. When I first joined HN I read the guidelines and it did make me alter my comments a bit. Hoping everyone who joins goes back to review the up/down votes on their comments and then take away the right lesson with limited information as to why those votes were received seems like wishful thinking. For those who do question why they keep getting downvoted, it might lead them to check the guidelines and finding the right supporting information would be useful.

A lot of the guidelines are about avoiding comments that aren’t interesting. A copy/paste from an LLM isn’t interesting.

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dormento
1 hour ago
[-]
> These comments already get heavily down-voted.

Can't find the link right now (cause why would i save a thread like that..) but I've seen more than once situations where people get defensive of others that post AI slop comments. Both times it was people in YC companies that have personal interest related to AI. Both times it looked like a person defending sockpuppets.

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m-hodges
1 hour ago
[-]
I feel like this won't eliminate AI-generated replies, it'll just eliminate disclosing that the replies are AI-generated.
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tpxl
3 hours ago
[-]
I think they should be banned, if there isnt a contribution besides what the llm answered. It's akin to 'I googled this', which is uninteresting.
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mattkrause
2 hours ago
[-]
I do find it useful in discussions of LLMs themselves. (Gemini did this; Claude did it too but it used to get tripped up like that).

I do wish people wouldn’t do it when it doesn’t add to the conversation but I would advocate for collective embarrassment over a ham-fisted regex.

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MBCook
2 hours ago
[-]
That provides value as you’re comparing (and hopefully analyzing) output. It’s totally on topic.

In a discussion of RISC v5 and if it can beat ARM someone just posting “ChatGPT says X” adds absolutely nothing to the discussion but noise.

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tptacek
19 minutes ago
[-]
They are already banned.
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zby
26 minutes ago
[-]
The contribution is the prompt.
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dormento
1 hour ago
[-]
IMHO its far worse than "I googled this". Googling at least requires a modicum of understanding. Pasting slop usually means that the person couldn't be bothered to filter out garbage, but wants to look smart anyway.
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Ekaros
2 hours ago
[-]
I think "I googled this" can be valid and helpful contribution. For example looking up some statistic or fact or an year. If that is also verified and sanity checked.
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TulliusCicero
1 hour ago
[-]
"I googled this" usually means actually going into a page and seeing what it says, not just copy-pasting the search results page itself, which is the equivalent here.
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sejje
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes, while citing an LLM in the same way is probably not as useful.

"I googled this" is only helpful when the statistic or fact they looked up was correct and well-sourced. When it's a reddit comment, you derail into a new argument about strength of sources.

The LLM skips a step, and gets you right to the "unusable source" argument.

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Ekaros
2 hours ago
[-]
I agree. Telling I googled this and someone has this opinion is pretty useless. Be that someone a LLM or random poster on internet.

Still, I will fight that someone actually doing the leg work even by search engine and reasonable evaluation on a few sources is often quite valuable contribution. Sometimes even if it is done to discredit someone else.

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skywhopper
1 hour ago
[-]
In that case, the correct post here would be to say “here’s the stat” and cite the actual source (not “I googled it”), and then add some additional commentary.
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josefresco
2 hours ago
[-]
As a community I think we should encourage "disclaimers" aka "I asked <AIVENDOR>, and it said...." The information may still be valuable.

We can't stop AI comments, but we can encourage good behavior/disclosure. I also think brevity should still be rewarded, AI or not.

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superfishy
2 hours ago
[-]
I agree. The alternative is prohibiting this practice and having these posters not disclose their use of LLMs, which in many cases cannot really be easily detected.
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TulliusCicero
1 hour ago
[-]
No, most don't think they're doing anything wrong, they think they're actually being helpful. So, most wouldn't try to disguise it, they'd just stop doing it, if it was against the rules.
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Rebelgecko
1 hour ago
[-]
This is not just about banning a source; it is about preserving the core principle of substantive, human-vetted content on HN. Allowing comments that are merely regurgitations of an LLM's generic output—often lacking context, specific experience, or genuine critical thought—treats the community as an outsourced validation layer for machine learning, rather than an ecosystem for expert discussion. It's like allowing a vending machine to contribute to a Michelin-starred chef's tasting menu: the ingredients might be technically edible, but they completely bypass the human skill, critical judgment, and passion that defines the experience. Such low-effort contributions fundamentally violate the "no shallow dismissals" guideline by prioritizing easily manufactured volume over unique human insight, inevitably degrading the platform's high signal-to-noise ratio and displacing valuable commentary from those who have actually put in the work.
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teach
26 seconds ago
[-]
slow clap

A tip of the hat for this performance art

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AdamH12113
2 hours ago
[-]
To me, the valuable comments are the ones that share the writer's expertise and experiences (as opposed to opinions and hypothesizing) or the ones that ask interesting questions. LLMs have no experience and no real expertise, and nobody seems to be posting "I asked an LLM for questions and it said...". Thus, LLM-written comments (whether of the form "I asked ChatGPT..." or not) have no value to me.

I'm not sure a full ban is possible, but LLM-written comments should at least be strongly discouraged.

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amatecha
30 minutes ago
[-]
Yes. If I wanted an LLM-generated response I'd submit my own query to such a service. I never want to see LLM-generated content on HN.
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TulliusCicero
1 hour ago
[-]
I'd like it to be forbidden, yes.

Sure, I'll occasionally ask an LLM about something if the info is easy to verify after, but I wouldn't like comments here that were just copy-pastes of the Google search results page either.

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HPsquared
12 minutes ago
[-]
It's nice that they warn others, though. Better to let them label it as such rather than banning the label. I'd rather it be simply frowned upon.
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lonelyasacloud
3 minutes ago
[-]
TL;DR; Until we are sure we have the moderation systems to assist surfacing the good stuff I would be in favour of temporary guidelines to maintain quality.

Longer ...

I am here for the interesting conversations and polite debate.

In principle I have no issues with either citing AI responses in much the same way we do with any other source. Or with individual's prompting AI's to generate interesting responses on their behalf. When done well I believe it can improve discourse.

Practically though, we know that the volume of content AI's can generate tends to overwhelm human based moderation and review systems. I like the signal to noise ratio as it is; so from my pov I'd be in favour of a cautious approach with a temporary guidelines against it's usage until we are sure we have the moderation tools to preserve that quality.

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michaelcampbell
2 hours ago
[-]
Related: Comments saying "this feels like AI". It's this generation's "Looks shopped" and of zero value, IMO.
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whimsicalism
2 hours ago
[-]
Disagree, find these comments valuable - especially if they are about an article that I was about to read. It's not the same as sockpuppeting accusations, which I think are right to be banned.
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sfink
5 minutes ago
[-]
Yeah, I haven't used AIs enough to be that good at immediately spotting generated output, so I appreciate the chance to reconsider my assumption that something was human-written. I'm sure people who did NOT use an AI find it insulting to be so accused, but I'd rather normalize those accusations and shift the norm to see them as suspicions rather than accusations.

I do find it more helpful when people specify why they think something was AI-generated. Especially since people are often wrong (fwict).

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duskwuff
28 minutes ago
[-]
Yes. Especially on articles - the baseline assumption is that most articles are written by humans, and it's nice to know when that expectation may have been violated.
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yodon
2 hours ago
[-]
> Comments saying "this feels like AI" should be banned.

Strong agree.

If you can make an actually reliable AI detector, stop wasting time posting comments on forums and just monetize it to make yourself rich.

If you can't, accept that you can't, and stop wasting everyone else's time with your unvalidated guesses about whether something is AI or not.

The least valuable lowest signal comments are "this feels like AI." Worse, they never raise the quality of the discussion about the article.

It's "does anyone else hate those scroll bars" and "this site shouldn't require JavaScript" for a new generation.

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D13Fd
1 hour ago
[-]
I strongly disagree. I like the social pressure against people posting comments that feel like AI (e.g., that add a lot of text and little non-BS substance). I also like the reminder to view suspicious comments and media through that lens.
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notahacker
5 minutes ago
[-]
"Does anyone else hate those s̶c̶r̶o̶l̶l̶b̶a̶r̶s̶ ads/modals/unconventional page layout" is the archetypical HN response tbf, and often the most upvoted

Also, I'm pretty sure most people can spot blogspam full of glaringly obvious cliche AI patterns without being able to create a high reliability AI detector. To set that as the threshold for commentary on whether an article might have been generated is akin to arguing that people shouldn't question the accuracy of a claim unless they've built an oracle or cracked lie detection.

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sbrother
2 hours ago
[-]
Fair, but then that functionality should be built into the flagging system. Obvious AI comments (worse, ones that are commercially driven) are a cancer that's breaking online discussion forums.
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criddell
32 minutes ago
[-]
I think Slashdot still has the best moderating system. Being able to flag a comment as insightful, funny, offtopic, redundant, etc... adds a lot of information and gives more control to readers over the types, quantity, and quality of discussion they see.

For example, some people seem to be irritated by jokes and being able to ignore +5 funny comments might be something they want.

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8organicbits
1 hour ago
[-]
One of my recent blog posts got a comment like that, and I tried to reframe it as "this is poorly written", and took the opportunity to solicit constructive criticism and to reflect on my style. I think my latest post improved, and I'm glad I adjusted my style.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45652349

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Marsymars
42 minutes ago
[-]
Not that you shouldn't self-reflect, but some people's style is going to be similar to the default GPT voice incidentally, and unfortunately for them.

GPT has ruined my enjoyment of using em dashes, for instance.

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dpifke
16 minutes ago
[-]
I recently logged onto LinkedIn for the first time in a while, and found an old job posting from when I was hiring at a startup ~2 decades ago. It's amazing how much it sounds like LLM output—I would have absolutely flagged it as AI-generated if I saw it today.
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whimsicalism
1 hour ago
[-]
i think some people get excited by the notion of identifying AI content so start doing so without knowing how. truly nothing about your post reads like an LLM generation, it has a very non-LLM 'voice'
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ruuda
2 hours ago
[-]
I find them helpful. It happens semi-regularly now that I read something that was upvoted, but after a few sentences I think "hmm, something feels off", and after the first two paragraphs I suspect it's AI slop. Then I go to the comments, and it turns out others noticed too. Sometimes I worry that I'm becoming too paranoid in a world where human-written content feels increasingly rare, and it's good to know it's not me going crazy.

In one recent case (the slop article about adenosine signalling) a commenter had a link to the original paper that the slop was engagement-farming about. I found that comment very helpful.

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djeastm
1 hour ago
[-]
I disagree. Traditional netiquette when downvoting something is to explain why.
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Analemma_
1 hour ago
[-]
Strong disagree: these comments (if they lay out their case persuasively) allow me to skip the content completely, and save me a lot of time. They provide lots of value, and in fact there should be social rewards for the work of wading through value-free slop to save others from having to do so.
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ManlyBread
2 hours ago
[-]
I think that the whole point of the discussion forum is to talk to other people, so I am in favor of banning AI replies. There's zero value in these posts because anyone can type chatgpt.com in the browser and then ask whatever question they want at any time while getting input from an another human being is not always guaranteed.
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Aachen
1 hour ago
[-]
You're like the 9th out of the 10 top-level replies I've read so far that says this, with the 10th one saying it in a different way (without suggesting they could have asked it themselves). What I find interesting is that everyone agrees and nobody argues about prompt engineering, as in, nobody says it's helpful that a skilled querier shares responses from the system. Apparently there's now the sentiment that literally anybody else could have done the same without thought

Whether prompt engineering is a skill is perhaps a different topic. I just found this meta statistic in this thread interesting to observe

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alwa
36 minutes ago
[-]
I do think it would be useful to normalize pasting a link to the full transcript if you’re going to quote an LLM. Both because I do find it useful to examine others’ prompting techniques, and because that gives me the context to gauge the response’s credibility.

What did we used to call it? Google-fu?

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lproven
2 hours ago
[-]
I endorse this. Please do take whatever measures are possible to discourage it, even if it won't stop people. It at least sends a message: this is not wanted, this is not helpful, this is not constructive.
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Havoc
5 minutes ago
[-]
I'd say it's annoying & low value but doesn't quite warrant a ban per se.

Plus if you ban it people will just remove the "AI said" part, post it as is without reading and now you're engaging with an AI without even the courtesy of knowing. That seems even worse

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incanus77
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes. This is the modern equivalent of “I searched the web and this is what it said”. If I could do the same thing and have the same results, you’re not adding any value.

Though this is unlikely a scenario that happened, I’d equate this with someone asking me what I thought about something, and me walking them over to a book on the shelf to show them what that author thought. It’s just an aggregated and watered-down average of all the books.

I’d rather hear it filtered through a brain, be it a good answer or bad.

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chemotaxis
3 hours ago
[-]
This wouldn't ban the behavior, just the disclosure of it.
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AlwaysRock
2 hours ago
[-]
I guess... That is the point in my opinion.

If you just say, "here is what llm said" if that turns out to be nonsense you can say something like, "I was just passing along the llm response, not my own opinion"

But if you take the llm response and present it as your own, at least there is slightly more ownership over the opinion.

This is kind of splitting hairs but hopefully it makes people actually read the response themselves before posting it.

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sfink
2 minutes ago
[-]
That was my immediate thought too, but I'm still in favor of banning it in order to make it a community norm. Right now, people generally seem to think that such comments are adding some sort of signal, and I don't think they're stupid to think that. Not stupid, just wrong. And people feel personally attacked and so get defensive and harden their position, so it would be better to just make it against the guidelines with some justification there rather than trying to control it with individual arguments (with a defensive person!) or downvoting alone. (And the guidelines would be the place to put the explanation of why it's disallowed.)
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xivzgrev
2 hours ago
[-]
Agreed - in fact these folks are going out of their way to be transparent about it. It's much easier to just take credit for a "smart" answer
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muwtyhg
1 hour ago
[-]
So those folks must be doing it because they think it's helpful, right? They are explicitly trying not to take credit for the words. Do you think, after a ban of these kinds of posts are implemented, that those posters would start hiding their use of AI to create replies, or would they just stop using AI to reply at all?
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zby
16 minutes ago
[-]
What is banned here? I can only find guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html not rules.
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TZubiri
1 minute ago
[-]
In my experience with managing teams, you want to encourage and not forbid this because the alternative is people will use llms without telling, which is 100 times worse than disclosed LLM use.
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tekacs
1 hour ago
[-]
Based on other HN rules thus far, I tend to think that this just results in more comments pointing out that you're violating a rule.

In many threads, those comments can be just as annoying and distracting as the ones being replied to.

I say this as someone who to my recollection has never had anyone reply with a rule correction to me -- but I've seen so many of them over the years and I feel like we would fill up the screen even more with a rule like this.

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BrtByte
16 minutes ago
[-]
Maybe a good middle ground would be: if you're referencing something an LLM said, make it part of your thinking...
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snayan
1 hour ago
[-]
I would say it depends, from your examples:

1) borderline. Potentially provides some benefit to the thread for readers who also don't have time or expertise to read an 83 page paper. Although it would require someone to acknowledge and agree that the summary is sound.

2) Acceptable. Dude got grok to make some cool visuals that otherwise wouldn't exist. I don't see what the issue is with something like this.

3) borderline. Same as 1 mostly.

The more I think about this, the less bothered I am by it. If the problem were someone jumping into a conversation they know nothing about, and giving an opinion that is actually just the output of an LLM, I'd agree. But all the examples you provided are transformative in some way. Either summarizing and simplifying a long article or paper, or creating art.

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buellerbueller
2 minutes ago
[-]
I agree and think the solution is to get rid of the LLMs.
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novok
39 minutes ago
[-]
IMO you shouldn't put a large amount of quoted text, that is just annoying. You should link out at that point. I think if we ban people from citing sources, they will just stop citing sources and that is even worse. It's the new "I googled that for you" and that is fine IMO.
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swiftcoder
30 minutes ago
[-]
"I googled that for you" is generally deployed when you know better than the other person (and likely wish to rub it in their face that they should know better too).

I feel like the LLM equivalent here sort of demonstrates the exact opposite (I don't know enough about this topic to even doubt the accuracy of the machine...)

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qustrolabe
1 hour ago
[-]
HN have very primitive comments layout that gives too big of an focus to large responses and first most upvoted post with all its replies. I think just because of that it's better to do something about large responses with little value. I'd rather they just share conversation link
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gruez
3 hours ago
[-]
What do you think about other low quality sources? For instance, "I checked on infowars.com, and this is what came up"? Should they be banned as well?
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sebastiennight
36 minutes ago
[-]
Have you seen this happen in the wild, ever?

I have not encountered a single instance of this ever since I've started using HN (and can't find one using the site search either) whereas the "I asked ChatGPT" zombie answers are rampant.

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everdrive
2 hours ago
[-]
It depends on if you're saying "Infowars has the answer, check out this article" vs "I know this isn't a reputable source, however it's a popular source and there's an interesting debate to be had about Infowars' perspective, even if we can agree it's incorrect."
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gruez
1 hour ago
[-]
>I know this isn't a reputable source, however it's a popular source and there's an interesting debate to be had about Infowars' perspective, even if we can agree it's incorrect."

You can make the same argument for AI output as well, but to be clear, I'm referring to the case of someone bringing up a low quality source as the answer.

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everdrive
1 hour ago
[-]
Definitely agreed, I think the exact same would apply -- if there's an insightful conversation to be had about LLMs or their responses, then I think we'd all welcome it. If it's just someone saying "I asked the LLM and it said X" then we're better off without it.

Not sure how easy that would actually be to moderate, of course.

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newsoftheday
2 hours ago
[-]
Your point is conflating a potential low quality source with AI output while also making the judgement that <fill in the blank site> is a low quality source and to be disregarded 100% of the time; ignoring that the potential exists that an informative POV may be present, even on a potential low quality source site.
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Aachen
1 hour ago
[-]
If you plagiarise text from a source that is objectively (measurably, systematically) unreliable, without vetting, adding commentary, or doing anything else to add value, then 100% yes that's the same issue
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maerF0x0
15 minutes ago
[-]
I see it equivalently helpful to the folks who paste archive.is/ph links for paywalled content. It saves me time to do something I may have wanted to do regardless, and it's easy enough to fold if someone does post a wall of response.

IMO hiding such content is the job of an extension.

When I do "here's what chatgpt has to say" it's usually because I'm pretty confident of a thing, but I have no idea what the original source was, but I'm not going to invest much time in resurrecting the original trail back to where I first learned a thing. I'm not going to spend 60 minutes to properly source a HN comment, it's just not the level of discussion I'm willing to have though many of the community seem to require an academic level of investment.

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sebastiennight
29 minutes ago
[-]
Most comments I've seen are comparing this behavior to "I googled it and..." but I think this misses the point.

Someone once put it as, "sharing your LLM conversations with others is as interesting to them as narrating the details of your dreams", which I find eerily accurate.

We are here in this human space in the pursuit of learning, edification, debate, and (hopefully) truth.

There is a qualitative difference between the unreliability of pseudonymous humans here vs the unreliability of LLM output.

And it is the same qualitative difference that makes it interesting to have some random poster share their (potentially incorrect) factual understanding, and uninteresting if the same person said "look, I have no idea, but in a dream last night it seemed to me that..."

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a_wild_dandan
2 hours ago
[-]
No. I like being able to ignore them. I can’t do that if people chop off their disclaimers to avoid comment removal.
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827a
51 minutes ago
[-]
This is a way of attributing where the comment is coming from, which is better than responding with what the AI says and not attributing it. I would support a guideline that discourages posting the output from AI systems, but ultimately there's no way to stop it.
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RiverCrochet
1 hour ago
[-]
Yes. LLM copy/paste strongly indicates karma/vote farming, because if I wanted an LLM's output I could just go there myself.

Someone below mentions using it for translation and I think that's OK.

Idea: Prevent LLM copy/pasting by preempting it. Google and other things display LLM summaries of what you search for after you enter your search query, and that's frequently annoying.

So imagine the same on an HN post. In a clearly delineated and collapsible box underneath or beside the post. It is also annoying, but it also removes the incentive to run the question through an LLM and post the output, because it was already done.

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sans_souse
2 hours ago
[-]
There be a thing called Thee Undocumented Rules of HN, aka etiquette, in which states - and I quote: "Thou shall not post AI generated replies"

I can't locate them, but I'm sure they exist...

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tastyfreeze
2 hours ago
[-]
I've seen that document. It also has a rule that states "Thou shall not be a bot."

Unfortunately, I can't find them. Its a shame. Everybody should read them.

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warkdarrior
1 hour ago
[-]
It's a great doc, I've been training my HN bot on it.
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bawolff
16 minutes ago
[-]
Yes, they are almost always low value comments.
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popalchemist
48 minutes ago
[-]
Absolutely. Any of us could ask AI if we wanted to hear random unsubstantiated opinions. Why should that get in the way of what we all come here for, which is communication with humans?
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rsynnott
2 hours ago
[-]
They should be forbidden _everywhere_. Absolutely obnoxious.
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yomismoaqui
2 hours ago
[-]
I think disclosing the use the AI is better than hiding it. The alternative is people using it but not telling for fear of a ban.
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kylehotchkiss
18 minutes ago
[-]
It's karma fishing, so yes, please ban it. While we're at it, just automatically add the archive.is link to any news article or don't allow voting on those comments ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Jimmc414
20 minutes ago
[-]
Banning, no. proper citations and disclosure, yes. Sometimes an AI response is noteworthy and it is the point of the post.
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mindcandy
2 hours ago
[-]
Is the content of the comment productive to the conversation? Upvote it.

Is the content of the comment counter-productive? Downvote it.

I could see cases where large walls of text that are generally useless should be downvoted or even removed. AI or not. But, the first example

> faced with 74 pages of text outside my domain expertise, I asked Gemini for a summary. Assuming you've read the original, does this summary track well?

to be frank, is a service to all HN readers. Yes it is possible that a few of us would benefit from sitting down with a nice cup of coffee, putting on some ambient music and taking in 74 pages of... whatever this is. But, faced with far more interesting and useful content than I could possibly consume all day every day, having a summary to inform my time investment is of great value to me. Even If It Is Imperfect

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ycosynot
1 hour ago
[-]
As a brain is made of small pebbles, a LLM is made of small pebbles. If it wants to talk, let it be. I am arguing metaphysically. Not only did it evolve partially out of randomness (and so with a kind of value as an enlighted POV on existence), but it is still evolving to be human, and even more than human. I believe LLM should not be banned, "they" should be willfully, and cheerfully, included in the discourse.

I asked Perplexity, and Perplexity said: ""Your metaphysical intuition is very much in line with live debates: once “small pebbles” are arranged into agents that talk, coordinate, and co-shape our world, there is a strong philosophical case that they should be brought inside our moral and political conversations rather than excluded by fiat.""

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amelius
49 minutes ago
[-]
Can't we have a unicode escape sequence for anything generated by AI?

Then we can just filter it at the browser level.

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alwa
41 minutes ago
[-]
I tend to trust the voting system to separate the wheat from the chaff. If I were to try and draw a line, though, I’d start at the foundation: leave room for things that add value, avoid contributions that don’t. I’d suggest that line might be somewhere like “please don’t quote LLMs directly unless you can identify the specific value you’re adding above and beyond.” Or “…unless you’re adding original context or using them in a way that’s somehow non-obvious.”

Maybe that’s part of tracing your reasoning or crediting sources: “this got me curious about sand jar art, Gemini said Samuel Clemens was an important figure, I don’t know whether that’s historically true but it did lead me to his very cool body of work [0] which seems relevant here.”

Maybe it’s “I think [x]. The LLM said it in a particularly elegant way: [y]”

And of course meta-discussion seems fine: “ChatGPT with the new Foo module says [x], which is a clear improvement over before, when it said [y]”

There’s the laziness factor and also the credibility factor. LLM slop speaks in the voice of god, and it’s especially frustrating when people post its words without the clues we use to gauge credibility. To me those include the model, the prompt, any customizations, prior rounds in context, and any citations (real or hallucinated) the LLM includes. In that sense I wonder if it makes sense to normalize linking to the full session transcript if you’re going to cite an LLM.

[0] https://americanart.si.edu/blog/andrew-clemens-sand-art

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steveBK123
41 minutes ago
[-]
Ban it. It is the "let me google that for you" of the 2020s
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zoomablemind
2 hours ago
[-]
There's hardly a standard for a 'quality' contribution to discussion. Many styles, many opinions, many ways to react and support one's statements.

If anything, it had been quite customary to supply references for some important facts. Thus letting readers to explore further and interpret the facts.

With AI in the mix the references become even more important, in the view of hallucinations and fact poisoning.

Otherwise, it's a forum. Voting, flagging, ignoring are the usual tools.

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wswope
2 hours ago
[-]
> There's hardly a standard for a 'quality' contribution to discussion. Many styles, many opinions, many ways to react and support one's statements.

My brain-based LLM would like you to know there’s a set of standard guidelines for contribution linked on the footer of this page.

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monknomo
1 hour ago
[-]
I do not think so. If I wanted an ai's opinion, I'd ask the ai.

Should we allow 'let me google that for you' responses?

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shishy
3 hours ago
[-]
People are probably copy pasting already without that disclosure :(
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coffeecat
2 hours ago
[-]
I'm sure there are people who spend their time doing this, but I don't understand the motive. Doesn't one post in comment threads because one wishes to share their thoughts with other humans?
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D13Fd
1 hour ago
[-]
That's one reason why I post comments (and none of my comments are AI-generated). But I think some people cut-and-paste AI responses because they like winning upvotes and running up an upvote counter.
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newsoftheday
2 hours ago
[-]
If someone is going to post like that, I feel they should post their prompt ver batim, the exact AI and version used and the date they issued the prompt to receive the response they're posting.

There are far too many replies in this thread saying to drop the ban hammer, for this to be seriously taken as Hacker News. What has happened to this audience?

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AlwaysRock
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes. Unless something useful is actually added by the commenter or the post is about, "I asked llm x and it said y (that was unexpected)".

I have a coworker who does this somewhat often and... I always just feel like saying well that is great but what do you think? What is your opinion?

At the very least the copy paster should read what the llm says, interpret it, fact check it, then write their own response.

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dylan604
2 hours ago
[-]
> At the very least the copy paster should read what the llm says, interpret it, fact check it, then write their own response.

then write their own response using an AI to improve the quality of the response? the implication here is that an AI user is going to do some research when using the AI was their research. to do the "fact check" as you suggest would mean doing actual work, and clearly that's not something the user is up for indicated by use of the AI.

so, to me, your suggestion is fantasy level thinking

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Arainach
2 hours ago
[-]
I keep this link handy to send to such coworkers/people:

https://distantprovince.by/posts/its-rude-to-show-ai-output-...

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exasperaited
2 hours ago
[-]
I have a client who does this — pastes it into text messages! as if it will help me solve the problem they are asking me to solve — and I'm like "that's great I won't be reading it". You have to push back.
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stego-tech
2 hours ago
[-]
Formalizing it within the community rules removes ambiguity around intent or use, so yes, I do believe we should be barring AI-generated comments and stories from HN in general. At the very least, it adds another barometer of sorts to help community leaders do the hard work of managing this environment.

If you didn’t think it, and you didn’t write it, it doesn’t belong here.

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Tiberium
2 hours ago
[-]
I'm honestly grateful to those who disclose their use of AI in replies, because lately I've noticed more and more of clearly LLM-generated comments on HN with no disclaimers whatsoever. And the worst part is that most people don't notice and still engage with them.
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gAI
2 hours ago
[-]
I asked AI, and it said yes.
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markus_zhang
58 minutes ago
[-]
It’s fine as long as ppls took effort to double check the answers.
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Aloha
1 hour ago
[-]
I also endorse this - maybe not outright ban but at least highly discourage.
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ilc
2 hours ago
[-]
No, I put them with lmgtfy. You are being told that your question is easy to research and you didn't do the work, most of the time.

Also heaven forbid, AI can be right. I realize this is a shocker to many here. But AI has use, especially in easy cases.

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bigstrat2003
2 hours ago
[-]
"I asked AI and it said" is far worse than lmgtfy (which is already rude) because it has zero value as evidence. AI can be right, but it's wrong often enough that you can't actually use it to determine the truth of something.
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zepolen
1 hour ago
[-]
How is lmgtfy rude?
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emaro
2 hours ago
[-]
I don't think LLM responses mean a question is easy to research - they will always give an answer.
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watwut
2 hours ago
[-]
1.) They are not replies to people asking questions.

2.) Posting AI response has as much value as posting random reddit comment.

3.) AI has value where you are able to factually verify it. If someone asks a question, they do not know the answer and are unable to validate ai.

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AnonC
2 hours ago
[-]
Are you a new HN mod (with authority over the guidelines) and are asking for opinions from readers (that’d be new)? Or are you just another normal user and are loudly wondering about this so that mods get inputs (as opposed to writing a nice email to hn@ycombinator.com)?

I think just downvoting by committed users is enough. What matters is the content and how valuable it seems to readers. There is no need to do any gate keeping by the guidelines on this matter. That’s my opinion.

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PeterStuer
2 hours ago
[-]
For better or worse, that ship has sailed. LLM's are now as omnipresent as websearch.

Some people will know how to use it in good taste, others will try to abuse it in bad taste.

It might not be universally agreed which is which in every case.

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collinmcnulty
1 hour ago
[-]
I think the ship very much has not sailed on how different spaces treat LLM responses. Are LLMs something that you can use if you want, but are considered rude and banned from being blatantly posted without human ownership? “You can’t use an LLM” would be an impossible rule, but “You can use an LLM to write your response but you have to take responsibility for the output” is feasible.
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JohnFen
3 hours ago
[-]
I find such replies to be worthless wastes of space on par with "let me google that for you" replies. If I want to know what genAI has to say about something, I can just ask it myself. I'm more interested in what the commenter has to say.

But I don't know that we need any sort of official ban against them. This community is pretty good about downvoting unhelpful comments, and there is a whole spectrum of unhelpful comments that have nothing to do with genAI. It seems impractical to overtly list them all.

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Scene_Cast2
3 hours ago
[-]
There is friction to asking AI yourself. And a comment typically means that "I found the AI answer insightful enough to share".
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ben_w
2 hours ago
[-]
Unfortunately it's easier to train an AI to be convincing than to be correct, so it can look insightful before it's true.

Like horoscopes, only they're not actually that bad so roll a D20 and on a set of numbers known only to the DM (and varying with domain and task length) you get a textbook answer and on the rest you get convincing nonsense.

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D13Fd
1 hour ago
[-]
> Unfortunately it's easier to train an AI to be convincing than to be correct, so it can look insightful before it's true.

This nails it. This is the fundamental problem with using AI material. You are outsourcing thinking in a way where the response is likely to look very correct without any actual logic or connection to truth.

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codechicago277
2 hours ago
[-]
The problem is that the AI answer could just be wrong, and there’s another step required to validate what it spit out. Sharing the conversation without fact checking it just adds noise.
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ManlyBread
2 hours ago
[-]
"Friciton" in this case is just plain old laziness and I don't think that it should be encouraged.
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WesolyKubeczek
2 hours ago
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Then state your understanding of what it said in your own words, maybe you’ll realize it’s bunk mid-sentence.
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cdelsolar
10 minutes ago
[-]
nah
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phoe-krk
1 hour ago
[-]
Yes. I'd prefer comments that have intent, not just high statistical probability.
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mattnewton
1 hour ago
[-]
1 and 3, straight to jail. 2 is fine
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LeoPanthera
3 hours ago
[-]
Banning the disclosure of it is still an improvement. It forces the poster to take responsibility for what they have written, as now it is in their name.
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trenchgun
53 minutes ago
[-]
Permaban from first strike
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Akronymus
1 hour ago
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I'd love to say yes, but it's basically unenforcable if the comment doesnt disclose it itself.
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theLegionWithin
1 hour ago
[-]
how are you going to enforce it? if someone does that & reformats the text a bit it'll look like a unique response
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jdoliner
2 hours ago
[-]
I've always liked that HN typically has comments that are small bits of research relevant to the post that I could have done myself but don't have to because someone else did it for me. In a sense the "I asked $AI, and it said" comments are just the evolved form of that. However the presentation does matter a little, at least to me. Explicitly stating that you asked AI feels a little like an appeal to authority... and a bad one at that. And makes the comment feel low effort. Often times comments that frame themselves in this way will be missing the "last-mile" effort that tailors the LLMs response to the context of the post.

So I think maybe the guidelines should say something like:

HN readers appreciate research in comments that brings information relevant to the post. The best way to make such a comment is to find the information, summarize it in your own words that explain why it's relevant to the post and then link to the source if necessary. Adding "$AI said" or "Google said" generally makes your post worse.

---------

Also I asked ChatGPT and it said:

Short Answer

HN shouldn’t outright ban those comments, but it should culturally discourage them, the same way it discourages low-effort regurgitation, sensationalism, or unearned certainty. HN works when people bring their own insight, not when they paste the output of a stochastic parrot.

A rule probably isn’t needed. A norm is.

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sodapopcan
1 hour ago
[-]
That and replies that start with "No"
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Aachen
53 minutes ago
[-]
Now I'm curious what kinds of comments you mean
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jpease
2 hours ago
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I asked AI if “I asked AI, and it said” replies should be forbidden, and it said…
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bakugo
41 minutes ago
[-]
While I do think such comments are pointless and almost never add anything to the discussion, I don't believe they're anywhere near as actively harmful as comments and (especially) submissions that are largely or entirely AI generated with no disclosure.

I've been seeing more and more of these on the front page lately.

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submeta
43 minutes ago
[-]
While I agree that we should be genuinely engaging with each other on this platform, trying to disallow all AI generated content reminds me of the naysayers when it comes to letting llms write code.

Yes, if you wanted to ask an llm, you’d do so, but someone else asks a specific question to the llm, and generates an answer that’s specific to his question. And that might add value to the discussion.

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djoldman
1 hour ago
[-]
The current upvote/downvote mechanism seems more than adequate to address these concerns.

If someone thinks an "I asked $AI, and it said" comment is bad, then they can downvote it.

As an aside, at times it may be insightful or curious to see what an AI actually says...

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ekjhgkejhgk
2 hours ago
[-]
I don't think they should be banned, I think they should be encouraged: I'm always appreciative when people who can't think for themselves openly identify themselves so that it costs me less effort to spot them.
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FromOmelas
1 hour ago
[-]
rather then ban, I would prefer posts/comments are labeled as such.

with features:

- ability to hide AI labeled replies (by default)

- assign lower weight when appropriate

- if a user is suspected to be AI-generated, retroactively label all their replies as "suspected AI"

- in addition to downvote/upvote, a "I think this is AI" counter

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nlawalker
2 hours ago
[-]
No, just upvote or downvote. I think the site guidelines could take a stance on it though, encouraging people to post human insights and discouraging comments that are effectively LLM output (regardless of whether they actually are).
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skobes
3 hours ago
[-]
I hate these too, but I'm worried that a ban just incentivizes being more sneaky about it.
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bawolff
14 minutes ago
[-]
I would consider that an https://xkcd.com/810/ situation.

My objection to AI comments is not that they are AI per se, but they are noise. If people are sneaky enough that they start making valuable AI comments, well that is great.

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llm_nerd
2 hours ago
[-]
I think people are just presuming that others are regurgitating AI pablum regardless.

People are seeing AI / LLMs everywhere — swinging at ghosts — and declaring that everyone are bots that are recycling LLM output. While the "this is what AI says..." posts are obnoxious (and a parallel to the equally boorish lmgtfy nonsense), not far behind are the endless "this sounds like AI" type cynical jeering. People need to display how world-weary and jaded they are, expressing their malcontent with the rise of AI.

And yes, I used an em dash above. I've always been a heavy user of the punctuation (being a scattered-brain with lots of parenthetical asides and little ability to self-edit) but suddenly now it makes my comments bot-like and AI-suspect.

I've been downvoted before for making this obvious, painfully true observation, but HNers, and people in general, are much less capable at sniffing out AI content than they think they are. Everyone has confirmation-biased themselves into thinking they've got a unique gift, when really they are no better than rolling dice.

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nottorp
2 hours ago
[-]
Thing is, the comments that sound "AI" generated but aren't have about as much value as the ones that really are.

Tbh the comments in the topic shouldn't be completely banned. As someone else said, they have a place for example when comparing LLM output or various prompts giving different hallucinations.

But most of them are just reputation chasing by posting a summary of something that is usually below the level of HN discussion.

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llm_nerd
58 minutes ago
[-]
>the comments that sound "AI" generated but aren't have about as much value as the ones that really are

When "sounds AI generated" is in the eye of the beholder, this is an utterly worthless differentiation. I mean, it's actually a rather ironic comment given that I just pointed out that people are hilariously bad at determining if something is AI generated, and at this point people making such declarations are usually announcing their own ignorance, or alternately they're pathetically trying to prejudice other readers.

People now simply declare opinions they disagree with as "AI", in the same way that people think people with contrary positions can't possibly be real and must be bots, NPCs, shills, and so on. It's all incredibly boring.

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etchalon
1 hour ago
[-]
Yes.
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srcreigh
56 minutes ago
[-]
The guidelines are just fine as they are.

Low effort LLM crap is bad.

Flame bait uncurious mob pile-ons (this thread) are also bad.

Use the downvote button.

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WithinReason
38 minutes ago
[-]
That's what the upvote/downvote system is for.
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myst
1 hour ago
[-]
I remember times when this sentiment was being expressed about “According to Wikipedia...” As much as I am pro implementing this rule, I’m afraid we are losing this fight.
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testdelacc1
2 hours ago
[-]
Maybe I remember the Grok ones more clearly but it felt like “I asked Grok” was more prevalent than the others.

I feel like the HN guidelines could take inspiration from how Oxide uses LLMs. (https://rfd.shared.oxide.computer/rfd/0576). Specifically the part where using LLMs to write comments violates the implicit social contract that the writer should put more care and effort and time into it than the reader. The reader reads it because they assume this is something a person has put more time into than they need to. LLMs break that social contract.

Of course, if it’s banned maybe people just stop admitting it.

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jeffbee
1 hour ago
[-]
If it was my personal site I would instantly ban all such accounts. They are basically virus-carrying individuals from outer space, here to destroy the discourse.

Since that isn't likely to happen, perhaps the community can develop a browser extension that calls attention to or suppresses such accounts.

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Zak
2 hours ago
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I don't think people should post the unfiltered output of an LLM as if it has value. If a question in a comment has a single correct answer that is so easily discoverable, I might downvote the comment instead.

I'm not sure making a rule would be helpful though, as I think people would ignore it and just not label the source of their comment. I'd like to be wrong about that.

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MBCook
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes, please. It’s extremely low effort. If you’re not adding anything of value (typing into another window and copying and pasting the output are not) then it serves no purpose.

It’s the same as “this” of “wut” but much longer.

If you’re posting that and ANALYZING the output that’s different. That could be useful. You added something there.

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ok123456
48 minutes ago
[-]
yes
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bbor
1 hour ago
[-]

   large LLM-generated texts just get in the way of reading real text from real humans
In terms of reasons for platform-level censorship, "I have to scroll sometimes" seems like a bad one.
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muwtyhg
1 hour ago
[-]
This feels like an oversimplification of the issue. Why moderate at all? Spam posted here would only require you to "have to scroll sometimes".
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bryanlarsen
2 hours ago
[-]
What is annoying about them is that they tend to be long with a low signal/noise ratio. I'd be fine with a comment saying. "I think the ChatGPT answer is informative: [link]". It'd still likely get downvoted to the bottom of the discussion, where it likely belongs.
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legohead
1 hour ago
[-]
Lots of old man yelling at clouds energy in here.

This is new territory, you don't ban it, you adapt with it.

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whimsicalism
2 hours ago
[-]
I think comments like this should link their generation rather than C+P it. Not sure if this should be a rule or we can just let downvoting do the work - I worry that a rule would be overapplied and I think there are contexts that are okay.
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breckinloggins
2 hours ago
[-]
If it’s part of an otherwise coherent post making a larger point I have no issue with it.

If it’s a low effort copy pasta post I think downvotes are sufficient unless it starts to obliterate the signal vs noise ratio on the site.

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prpl
2 hours ago
[-]
were lmgtfy links ever forbidden?
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satisfice
2 hours ago
[-]
Only if they also do a google search, provide the top one hundred hits, and paste in a relevant Wikipedia page.
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Mistletoe
2 hours ago
[-]
I don’t see how it is much different than using Wikipedia. They are usually about the same answer and at least in Gemini it is usually a correct answer now.
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exasperaited
2 hours ago
[-]
No, don't ban it. It's a useful signal for value judgements.
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63stack
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes
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mrguyorama
47 minutes ago
[-]
Umm, just to be clear;

HN is not actually a democracy. The rules are not voted on. They are set by the people who own and run HN.

Please tell me what you think those people think of this question.

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mistrial9
2 hours ago
[-]
the system of long-lived nicks on YNews is intended to build a mild and flexible reputation system. This is valuable for complex topics, and to notice zealots, among other things. The feeling while reading that it is a community of peers is important.

AI-LLM replies break all of these things. AI-LLM replies must be declared as such, for certain IMHO. It seems desirable to have off-page links for (inevitable) lengthy reply content.

This is an existential change for online communications. Many smart people here have predicted it and acted on it already. It is certainly trending hard for the forseeable future.

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dominotw
2 hours ago
[-]
i asked chatgpt and it said no its not a good idea to ban
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ben_w
3 hours ago
[-]
Depends on the context.

I find myself downvoting (flagging) them when I see them as submissions, and I can't think of any examples where they were good submission content; but for comments? There's enough discussion where the AI is the subject itself and therefore it's genuinely relevant what the AI says.

Then there's stuff like this, which I'd not seen myself before seeing your question, but I'd say asking people here if an AI-generated TLDR of 74 (75?) page PDF is correct, is a perfectly valid and sensible use: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46164360

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hooverd
1 hour ago
[-]
Yes please. I don't care if somebody did their own research via one, but it's just so low effort.
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syockit
3 hours ago
[-]
You can add the guideline, but then people would skip the "I asked" part and post the answer straight away. Apart from the obvious LLMesque structure of most of those bot answers, how could you tell if one has crafted the answer so much that it looks like a genuine human answer?

Obligatory xkcd https://xkcd.com/810/

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card_zero
2 hours ago
[-]
15 years ago ... needs updating in regard of how things panned out.
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leephillips
2 hours ago
[-]
Posting this kind of slop should be a banning offense. Also: https://hn-ai.org/
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tehwebguy
2 hours ago
[-]
It should be allowed and downvoted
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ruined
2 hours ago
[-]
you got a downvote button
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moomoo11
2 hours ago
[-]
Honestly I judge people pretty harshly. I ask people a question in honest good faith. If they’re trying to help me out and genuinely care and use AI fine.

But most of the time it’s like they were bothered that I asked and copy paste what an AI said.

Pretty easy. Just add their name to my “GFY” list and move on in my life.

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pembrook
2 hours ago
[-]
No, this is not a good rule.

What AI regurgitates about about a topic is often more interesting and fact/data-based than the emotionally-driven human pessimists spewing constant cynicism on HN, so in fact I much prefer having more rational AI responses added in as context within a conversation.

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zug_zug
33 minutes ago
[-]
Ironic that your comment downvoted... gosh darn emotional humans
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WesolyKubeczek
2 hours ago
[-]
Yes. If I wanted an LLM’s opinion, I would have asked it myself.
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newsoftheday
2 hours ago
[-]
Would your prompt have been identical and produced identical results, today, tomorrow, which version of AI would you have used, were there bugs present that made the post or comment interesting that would have been absent in your response because the bug had been fixed already?
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WesolyKubeczek
1 hour ago
[-]
In any case, it should have some more thought to it, some summary, some highlight, what you find useful/insightful about it. Just dumping the response is lazy and disrespectful.

And if two people can get two opposite results by giving the same prompt which asks a very specific question to the same model, it looks like bunk anyway. LLMs don't care if they are correct.

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createaccount99
1 hour ago
[-]
Forbidden? They should be mandatory.
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cm2012
1 hour ago
[-]
These comments are in the top 10% of usefulness of all comments in those threads. Clear, legible information that is easy to read and relevant. Keep!
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