Are we stuck with the same Desktop UX forever? [video]
40 points
2 hours ago
| 11 comments
| youtube.com
| HN
linguae
21 minutes ago
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I enjoyed this talk, and I want to learn more about the concept of “learning loops” for interface design.

Personally, I wish there were a champion of desktop usability like how Apple was in the 1980s and 1990s. I feel that Microsoft, Apple, and Google lost the plot in the 2010s due to two factors: (1) the rise of mobile and Web computing, and (2) the realization that software platforms are excellent platforms for milking users for cash via pushing ads and services upon a captive audience. To elaborate on the first point, UI elements from mobile and Web computing have been applied to desktops even when they are not effective, probably to save development costs, and probably since mobile and Web UI elements are seen as “modern” compared to an “old-fashioned” desktop. The result is a degraded desktop experience in 2025 compared to 2009 when Windows 7 and Snow Leopard were released. It’s hamburger windows, title bars becoming toolbars (making it harder to identify areas to drag windows), hidden scroll bars, and memory-hungry Electron apps galore, plus pushy notifications, nag screens, and ads for services.

I don’t foresee any innovation from Microsoft, Apple, or Google in desktop computing that doesn’t have strings attached for monetization purposes.

The open-source world is better positioned to make productive desktops, but without coordinated efforts, it seems like herding cats, and it seems that one must cobble together a system instead of having a system that works as coherently as the Mac or Windows.

With that said, I won’t be too negative. KDE and GNOME are consistent when sticking to Qt/GTK applications, respectively, and there are good desktop Linux distributions out there.

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gtowey
10 minutes ago
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It's because companies are no longer run by engineers. The MBAs and accountants are in charge and they could care less about making good products.

At Microsoft, Satya Nadella has an engineering background, but it seems like he didn't spend much time as an engineer before getting an MBA and playing the management advancement game.

Our industry isn't what it used to be and I'm not sure it ever could.

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scottjenson
16 hours ago
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I've given dozens of talks, but this one seems to have struck a chord, as it's my most popular video in quite a while. It's got over 14k views in less than a day.

I'm excited so many people are interested in desktop UX!

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calmbonsai
13 minutes ago
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I concur though per my earlier post I do feel "desktop stagnation" is inevitable and we're already there. You were channeling Don Norman https://jnd.org/ in the best of ways.
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az09mugen
7 hours ago
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Thanks for that nice talk, it felt like a breeze of fresh air with basic & simple yet powerful but alas "forgotten" concepts of UX.

Will look into your other talks.

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analogpixel
1 hour ago
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Why didn't Star Trek ever tackle the big issues, like them constantly updating the LCARS interface every few episodes to make it better, or having Geordi La Forge re-writing the warp core controllers in Rust?
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Findecanor
52 seconds ago
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I have often thought that Star Trek is supposed to show a future in which computer technology and user interfaces have evolved to a steady state that is superior to what we have now, in ways that we don't yet understand. That state is my goal to strive to.

It is for the audience to imagine that those printed transparencies backlit with light bulbs behind coloured gel are the most intuitive, easy to use, precise user interfaces that the actors pretend that they are.

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thaumaturgy
36 minutes ago
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Because, something that a lot of tech-obsessed Trek fans never seem to really come to terms with, is that Trek didn't fetishize technology.

In the Trek universe, LCARS wasn't getting continuous UI updates because they would have advanced, culturally, to a point where they recognized that continuous UI updates are frustrating for users. They would have invested the time and research effort required to better understand the right kind of interface for the given devices, and then... just built that. And, sure, it probably would get updates from time to time, but nothing like the way we do things now.

Because the way we do things now is immature. It's driven often by individual developers' needs to leave their fingerprints on something, to be able to say, "this project is now MY project", to be able to use it as a portfolio item that helps them get a bigger paycheck in the future.

Likewise, Geordi was regularly shown to be making constant improvements to the ship's systems. If I remember right, some of his designs were picked up by Starfleet and integrated into other ships. He took risks, too, like experimental propulsion upgrades. But, each time, it was an upgrade in service of better meeting some present or future mission objective. Geordi might have rewritten some software modules in whatever counted as a "language" in that universe at some point, but if he had done so, he would have done extensive testing and tried very hard to do it in a way that wouldn't've disrupted ship operations, and he would only do so if it gained some kind of improvement that directly impacted the success or safety of the whole ship.

Really cool technology is a key component of the Trek universe, but Trek isn't about technology. It's about people. Technology is just a thing that's in the background, and, sometimes, becomes a part of the story -- when it impacts some people in the story.

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amelius
30 minutes ago
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I still wonder why not everybody was lingering in the holodeck all the time.

(equivalent of people being glued to their smartphones today)

(Related) This is one explanation for the Fermi paradox: Alien species may isolate themselves in virtual worlds

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

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jfengel
29 minutes ago
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Most of Trek's tech is just a way to move the story along. Transporters were introduced to avoid having to land a shuttle. Warp drive is just a way to get to the next story. Communicators relay plot points.

Stories which focus on them as technology are nearly always boring. "Oh no the transporter broke... Yay we fixed it".

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Mistletoe
29 minutes ago
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Isn't it probably just that they don't really have money in Star Trek so there is no contract promising amazing advances in the LCARS if we just pay this person or company to revamp it? If someone has money to be made from something they will always want to convince you the new thing is what you need.
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krapp
19 minutes ago
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Remember that in Star Trek humans have evolved beyond the desire to work for money or personal gain, so everyone just volunteers their time, and somehow this just always works.
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krapp
20 minutes ago
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>In the Trek universe, LCARS wasn't getting continuous UI updates because they would have advanced, culturally, to a point where they recognized that continuous UI updates are frustrating for users.

Not to be "that guy" but LCARS wasn't getting continuous UI updates because that would have cost the production team money and for TNG at least would have often required rebuilding physical sets. It does get updated between series because as part of setting the design language for that series.

And Geordi was shown constantly making improvements to the ship's systems because he had to be shown "doing engineer stuff."

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calmbonsai
4 minutes ago
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Trek needs to visibly "sci-fi-up" extant tech in order to have the poetic narrative license to tell its present-day parables.

Things just need to "look futuristic". The don't actually need to have practical function outside whatever narrative constraints are imposed in order to provide pace and tension to the story.

I forget who said it first, but "Warp is really the speed of plot".

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AndrewKemendo
42 minutes ago
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Because it’s a fantasy space opera show that has nothing to do with reality
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mattkevan
25 minutes ago
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Really interesting. Going to have to watch in detail.

I’m in the process of designing an os interface that tries to move beyond the current desktop metaphor or the mobile grid of apps.

Instead it’s going to use ‘frames’ of content that are acted on by capabilities that provide functionality. Very much inspired by Newton OS, HyperCard and the early, pre-Web thinking around hypermedia.

A newton-like content soup combined with a persistent LLM intelligence layer, RAG and knowledge graphs could provide a powerful way to create, connect and manage content that breaks out of the standard document model.

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joelkesler
2 hours ago
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Great talk about the future of desktop user-interfaces.

“…Scott Jenson gives examples of how focusing on UX -- instead of UI -- frees us to think bigger. This is especially true for the desktop, where the user experience has so much potential to grow well beyond its current interaction models. The desktop UX is certainly not dead, and this talk suggests some future directions we could take.”

“Scott Jenson has been a leader in UX design and strategic planning for over 35 years. He was the first member of Apple’s Human Interface group in the late '80s, and has since held key roles at several major tech companies. He served as Director of Product Design for Symbian in London, managed Mobile UX design at Google, and was Creative Director at frog design in San Francisco. He returned to Google to do UX research for Android and is now a UX strategist in the open-source community for Mastodon and Home Assistant.”

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sprash
26 minutes ago
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Unpopular take: Windows 95 was the peak of Desktop UX.

GUI elements were easily distinguishable from content and there was 100% consistency down to the last little detail (e.g. right click always gave you a meaningful context menu). The innovations after that are tiny in comparison and more opinionated (things like macos making the taskbar obsolete with the introduction of Exposé).

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rolph
2 hours ago
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problem is with pushing a UX at users and enforcing that model when the user changes it to something comfortable when you should be looking at what the users are throwing away, and what they are replacing it with.

MS is a prime example, dont do what MS has been doing, remember whos hardware it actually is, remain aware that what a developer, and a board room understands as improvement, is not experienced in the same way by average retail consumers.

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fortyseven
1 hour ago
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You know, sometimes things just work. They get whittled way at until we end up with a very refined endpoint. Just look at cell phones. Black rectangles as far as the eye can see. For good reason. I'm not saying don't explore new avenues ( foldables, etc. ), but it's perfectly fine to come to settle into a metaphor that just works.
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7thaccount
1 hour ago
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The Windows 95-XP taskbar is good. Everything else has been downhill.
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pdonis
46 minutes ago
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I use Trinity Desktop on Linux because it's basically the same as the Windows 95-XP taskbar interface, and has no plans to change.
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calmbonsai
29 minutes ago
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For desktops, basically, yes. And that's OK.

Take any other praxis that's reached the 'appliance' stage that you use in your daily life from washing machines, ovens, coffee makers, cars, smartphones, flip-phones, televisions, toilets, vacuums, microwaves, refrigerators, ranges, etc.

It takes ~30 years to optimize the UX to make it "appliance-worthy" and then everything afterwards consists of edge-case features, personalization, or regulatory compliance.

Desktop Computers are no exception.

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Hammershaft
20 minutes ago
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All of the other examples you gave are products constrained by physical reality with a small set of countable use-cases. I don't think computer operating systems are simply mature appliance-like products that have been optimized down their current design. I think there is a lot of potential that hasn't been realized because the very few players in the operating system space have been been hill-climbing towards a local maxima set by path dependence 40 years ago.
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AndrewKemendo
46 minutes ago
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The computer form factor hasn’t changed since the mainframe it’s just all gotten miniaturized

Humans have outright rejected all other possible computer form factors presented to them to date including:

Purely NLP with no screen

head worn augmented reality

contact lenses,

head worn virtual reality

implanted touch sensors

etc…

Every other possible form factor gets shit on, on this website and in every other technology newspaper.

This is despite almost a century of a attempts at doing all those and making zero progress in sustained consumer penetration.

Had people liked those form factors they would’ve been invested in them early on, such that they would develop the same way the laptops and iPads and iPhones and desktops have evolved.

However nobody’s even interested at any type of scale in the early days of AR for example.

I have a litany of augmented and virtual reality devices scattered around my home and work that are incredibly compelling technology - but are totally seen as straight up dogshit from the consumer perspective.

Like everything it’s not a machine problem, it’s a human people in society problem

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mcswell
2 minutes ago
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Since mainframes, you say. Well, sonny, when I first learned programming on a mainframe, we had punch cards and fan-fold printouts. Nothing beats that, eh?
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nkrisc
25 minutes ago
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> Purely NLP with no screen

Cumbersome and slow with horrible failure recovery. Great if it works, huge pain in the ass if it doesn't. Useless for any visual task.

> head worn augmented reality

Completely useless if what you're doing doesn't involve "augmenting reality" (editing a text document), which probably describes most tasks that the average person is using a computer for.

> contact lenses

Effectively impossible to use for some portion of the population.

> head worn virtual reality

Completely isolates you from your surroundings (most people don't like that) and difficult to use for people who wear glasses. Nevermind that currently they're heavy, expensive, and not particularly portable.

> implanted sensors

That's going to be a very hard sell for the vast majority of people. Also pretty useless for what most people want to do with computers.

The reason these different form factors haven't caught on is because they're pretty shit right now and not even useful to most people.

The standard desktop environment isn't perfect, but it's good and versatile enough for what most people need to do with a computer.

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AndrewKemendo
18 minutes ago
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And most computers were entirely shit in the 1950s

yet here we are today

You must’ve missed the point: people invested in desktop computers when they were shitty vacuum tubes that blow up.

That still hasn’t happened for any other user experience or interface.

> it's good and versatile enough for what most people need to do with a computer

Exactly correct! Like I said it’s a limitation of the human society, the capabilities and expectations of regular people are so low and diffuse that there is not enough collective intelligence to manage a complex interface that would measurably improve your abilities.

Said another way, it’s the same as if a baby could never “graduate” from Duplo blocks to Lego because lego blocks are too complicated

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AnimalMuppet
4 minutes ago
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I do not see laptop computers as the same form factor as mainframes. At. All.

Even more, I don't see phones as the same form factor as mainframes.

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ares623
58 minutes ago
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Are we stuck with the same toothbrush UX forever?
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LeFantome
50 minutes ago
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I feel like toothbrush UX has improved quite a bit.
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yearolinuxdsktp
21 minutes ago
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It’s changed, but is a wash:

On the positive side, my electronic toothbrush allows me to avoid excessive pressure via real-time green/red light.

On the negative side, it guilt trips me with a sad face emoji any time my brushing time is under 2 minutes.

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AndrewKemendo
38 minutes ago
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Toothbrush UX is the same today as it was when we were hunter gatherers: use an abrasive tool to ablate plaque from the teeth and gums without removing enamel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMuTG6fOMCg

The variety of form factors offered are the only difference

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jrowen
28 minutes ago
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Yes, whittling down a stick is pretty much the same experience as using an electric toothbrush. Or those weird mouthguard things they have now.

I don't think most people would find this degree of reduction helpful.

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AndrewKemendo
21 minutes ago
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> Yes, whittling down a stick is pretty much the same experience as using an electric toothbrush

Correct? I agree with this precisely but assume you’re writing it sarcastically

From the point of view of the starting state of the mouth to the end state of the mouth the USER EXPERIENCE is the same: clean teeth

The FORM FACTOR is different: Electric version means ONLY that I don’t move my arm

“Most people” can’t do multiplication in their head so I’m not looking to them to understand

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