Using a sandbox also limits what you can do with a system. With stuff like SECCOMP you have to methodically define policies for all its interactions. Like you're dealing with two systems. It's very bureaucratic and the reason we do it, is because we don't trust our programs to behave.
With Fil-C you get a different approach. The language and runtime offer a stronger level of assurance your program can only behave, so you can trust it more to have unfettered access to the actual system. You also have the choice to use Fil-C with a sandbox like SECCOMP as described in the blog post, since your Fil-C binaries are just normal executables that can access powerful Linux APIs like prctl. It took Linux twenty years to invent that interface, so you'll probably have to wait ten years to get something comparable from WASI.
True, although as I understand it the WASI component model at least allows multiple fine-grained sandboxes, so it's somewhere in-between per-object capabilities and one big sandbox for your entire program. I haven't actually used it yet so I might be wrong about that.
> so you'll probably have to wait ten years to get something comparable from WASI
I think for many WASI use cases the capability control would be done by the host program itself, so you don't need OS-level support for it. E.g. with Wasmtime I do
WasiCtxBuilder::new()
.allow_tcp(false)
.allow_udp(false)
.allow_ip_name_lookup(false)
Or if you prefer the bytecode based evolution of them, RMI and .NET Remoting.
I don't see it going that far.
The WebAssembly development experience on the browser mostly still sucks, especially the debugging part, and on the server it is another yet another bytecode.
Finally, there is hardly any benefit over OS processes, talking over JSON-RPC (aka how REST gets mostly used), GraphQL, gRPC, or plain traditional OS IPC.
You can totally achieve weird execution inside the rlbox.
For all you know that’s a bug in the wasm port of the codec.
> it’s runtime safety
So is Fil-C
The problem with wasm is that an OOBA in one C allocation in the wasm guest can still give the attacker the power to clobber any memory in the guest. All that’s protected is the host. That’s enough to achieve weird execution.
Hence why I say that wasm is a sandbox. It’s not memory safety.
I'm a little concerned that no one (besides the author?) has checked the implementation to see if reducing the attack surface in one area (memory security) might cause problems in other layers.
For example, Filip mentioned that some setuid programs can be compiled with it, but it also makes changes to ld.so. I pointed this out to the author on Twitter, as it could be problematic. Setuid applications need to be written super-defensively because they can be affected by envars, file descriptors (e.g. there could be funny logical bugs if fd=1/2 is closed for a set-uid app, and then it opens something, and starts using printf(), think about it:), rlimits, and signals. The custom modifications to ld.so likely don't account for this yet?
In other words, these are still teething problems with Fil-C, which will be reviewed and fixed over time. I just want to point out that using it for real-world "infrastructures" might be somewhat risky at this point. We need unix nerds to experiment with.
OTOH, it's probably a good idea to test your codebase with it (provided it compiles, of course) - this phase could uncover some interesting problems (assuming there aren't too many false positives).
It's a 'damning with faint praise' thing and I'm not sure to what degree you are aware of it but I don't think it is a fair way to treat the author and the project. HN has enough of a habit of pissing on other people's accomplishments already. Critics have it easy, playwrights put in the hours.
At the same time, however, the author seems to be operating on the principle: "If I don't make big claims, no one will notice." The statements about the actual security benefits should be independently verified -this hasn't happened yet, but it probably will, as the project is gaining increasing attention.
I am making big claims because there are big claims to be made.
> he statements about the actual security benefits should be independently verified -this hasn't happened yet
I don't know what this means. Folks other than me have independently verified my claims, just not exhaustively. No memory safe language runtime has been exhaustively verified, save maybe Spark. So you're either saying something that isn't true at all, or that could be said for any memory safe language runtime.
When a project makes 'big claims' about safety, less technical users might interpret that as 'production ready'. My caution is caused by the fact that modifying the runtime is high-risk territory where regressions can introduce vulns that are distinct from the memory safety issues you are solving.
The goal is to prevent the regression in the first place. I'm looking forward to seeing how the verification matures and rooting for it.
If you think that Fil-C regresses ld.so then get specific. Otherwise what you’re doing is spreading fear, uncertainty, and doubt for no good reason.
Fil-C has always honored the setuid behavior provided by ld.so. There was a bug - since fixed - that the Fil-C runtime called getenv instead of secure_getenv.
> When a project makes 'big claims' about safety, less technical users might interpret that as 'production ready'.
Fil-C is production ready and already has production users.
- You start off with commenting that the author has a knack for self promotion and invention. My impression is that he's putting in a status report for a project that is underway.
- you follow this up with something that you can't possibly know and use that to put the project down, whilst at the same time positioning yourself as a higher grade authority because you are apparently able to see something that others do not, effectively doing that which you accuse the author of: self promotion.
- You then double down on this by showing that it was you who pointed out to the author that there was a bug in the software, which in the normal course of open source development is not usually enough to place yourself morally or technically above the authors.
- You then in your more or less official capacity of established critic warn others to hold off putting this project to the test until 'adults' have reviewed it.
- And then finally you suggest they do it anyway, with your permission this time (and of course now amply warned) with the implicit assumption that problems will turn up (most likely this will be the case) and that you hope 'there won't be too many false positives', strongly suggesting that there might be.
And in your comment prior to this reply you do that once again, making statements that put words in the mouth of the author.
> For example, Filip mentioned that some setuid programs can be compiled with it, but it also makes changes to ld.so. I pointed this out to the author on Twitter, as it could be problematic.
The changes to ld.so are tiny and don’t affect anything interesting to setuid. Basically it’s just one change: teaching the ld.so that the layout of libc is different.
More than a month ago, I fixed a setuid bug where the Fil-C runtime was calling getenv rather than secure_getenv. Now I’m just using secure_getenv.
> In other words, these are still teething problems with Fil-C, which will be reviewed and fixed over time. I just want to point out that using it for real-world "infrastructures" might be somewhat risky at this point. We need unix nerds to experiment with.
There’s some truth to what you’re saying and there’s also some FUD to what you’re saying. Like a perfectly ambiguous mix of truth and FUD. Good job I guess?
The FUDish part is that the only actual bug bro is referring to got fixed a while ago (and didn’t have to do with ld.so), and the rest is hypothetical
Congrats on Fil-C reaching heisentroll levels!
The fact is that Fil-C allows capability and pointer writes to tear. That is, when thread 1 writes pointer P2 to a memory location previously holding P1, thread 2 can observe, briefly, the pointer P2 combined with the capability for P1 (or vice versa, the capability for P2 coupled to the pointer bits for P1).
Because thread 2 can observe a mismatch between a pointer and its capability, an attacker controlled index into P2 from thread 2 can access memory of an object other than the one to which P2 points.
The mismatch of pointer and capability breaks memory safety: an attacker can break the abstraction of pointers-as-handles and do nefarious things with pointers viewed instead as locations in RAM.
On one hand, this break is minor and doesn't appear when memory access is correctly synchronized. Fil-C is plenty useful even if this corner case is unsafe.
On the other hand, the Fil-C as author's reaction to discourse about this corner case makes me hesitant to use his system at all. He claims Java has the same problem. It does not. He claims it's not a memory safety violation because thread 1 could previously have seen P1 and its capability and therefore accessed any memory P1's capability allowed. That's correct but irrelevant: thread 2 has P2 and it's paired with the wrong capability. Kaboom.
The guy is technically talented, but he presents himself as Prometheus bringing the fire of memory safety to C-kind. He doesn't acknowledge corner cases like the one I've described. Nor does he acknowledge practical realities like the inevitability of some kind of unsafe escape hatch (e.g. for writing a debugger). He says such things are unnecessary because he's wrapped every system call and added code to enforce his memory model's invariants around it. Okay, is it possible to do that in the context of process_vm_writev?
I hope, sincerely, the author is able to shift perspectives and acknowledge the limitations of his genuinely useful technology. The more he presents it as a panacea, the less I want to use it.
Under Fil-C’s memory safety rules, „the object at which P points” is determined entirely by the capability and nothing else.
You got the capability for P1? You can access P1. That’s all there is to it. And the stores and loads of the capability itself never tear. They are atomic and monotonic (LLVM’s way of saying they follow something like the JMM).
This isn’t a violation of memory safety as most folks working in this space understand it. Memory safety is about preventing the weird execution that happens when an attacker can access all memory, not just the memory they happen to get a capability to.
> He claims Java has the same problem. It does not.
It does: in Java, what object you can access is entirely determined by what objects you got to load from memory, just like in Fil-C.
You’re trying to define „object” in terms of the untrusted intval, which for Fil-C’s execution model is just a glorified index.
Just because the nature of the guarantees doesn’t match your specific expectations does not mean that those guarantees are flawed. All type systems allow incorrect programs to do wrong things. Memory safety isn’t about 100% correctness - it’s about bounding the fallout of incorrect execution to a bounded set of memory.
> That's correct but irrelevant: thread 2 has P2 and it's paired with the wrong capability. Kaboom.
Yes, kaboom. The kaboom you get is a safety panic because a nonadversarial program would have had in bounds pointers and the tear that arises from the race causes an OOB pointer that panics on access. No memory safe language prevents adversarial programs from doing bad things (that’s what sandboxes are for, as TFA elucidates).
But that doesn’t matter. What matters is that someone attacking Fil-C cannot use a UAF or OOBA to access all memory. They can only use it to access whatever objects they happen to have visibility into based on local variables and whatever can be transitively loaded from them by the code being attacked.
That’s memory safety.
> He doesn't acknowledge corner cases like the one I've described.
You know about this case because it’s clearly documented in the Fil-C documentation. You’re just disagreeing with the notion that the pointer’s intval is untrusted and irrelevant to the threat model.
You don't always get a panic. An attacker who can get a program to access an offset he controls relative to P2 can access P1 if P2 is torn such that it's still coupled, at the moment of adversarial access, with P1's capability. That's dangerous if a program has made a control decision based on the pointer bits being P2. IOW, an attacker controlled offset can transform P2 back into P1 and access memory using P1's capability even if program control flow has proceeded as though only P2 were accessible at the moment of adversarial access.
That can definitely enable a "weird execution" in the sense that it can let an attacker make the program follow an execution path that a plain reading of the source code suggests it can't.
Is it a corner case that'll seldom come up in practice? No. Is it a weakening of memory safety relative to what the JVM and Rust provide? Yes.
You are trying to define the problem away with sleigh-of-hand about the pointer "really" being its capability while ignoring that programs make decisions based on pointer identity independent of capability -- because they're C programs and can't even observe these capabilities. The JVM doesn't have this problem, because in the JVM, the pointer is the capability.
It's exactly this refusal to acknowledge limitations that spooks me about your whole system.
Only if the program was written in a way that allowed for legitimate access to P1. You’re articulating this as if P1 was out of thin air; it’s not. It’s the capability you loaded because the program was written in a way that let you have access to it. Like if you wrote a Java program in a way where a shared field F sometimes pointed to object P1. Of course that means loaders of F get to access P1.
> That can definitely enable a "weird execution"
Accessing a non-free object pointed by a pointer you loaded from the heap is not weird.
I get the feeling that you’re not following me on what „weird execution” is. It’s when the attacker can use a bug in one part of the software to control the entire program’s behavior. Your example ain’t that.
> Is it a corner case that'll seldom come up in practice? No. Is it a weakening of memory safety relative to what the JVM and Rust provide? Yes.
I don’t care about whether it’s a corner case.
My point is that there’s no capability model violation and no weird execution in your example.
It’s exactly like what the JVM provides if you think of the intval as just a field selector.
I’m not claiming it’s like what rust provides. Rust has stricter rules that are enforced less strictly (you can and do use the unsafe escape hatch in rust code to an extent that has no equal in Fil-C).
My program:
if (p == P2) return p[attacker_controlled_index];
Your central claim is that you can take any old C program, compile it with Fil-C, and get a memory-safe C program. Turns out you get memory safety only if you write that C program with Fil-C's memory model and its limits in mind. If someone's going to do that, why not write instead with Rust's memory model in mind and not pay a 4x performance penalty?
Weird execution is a term of art in the security biz. This is not that.
Weird execution happens when the attacker can control all of memory, not just objects the victim program rightly loaded from the heap.
> Your central claim is that you can take any old C program, compile it with Fil-C, and get a memory-safe C program.
Yes. Your program is memory safe. You get to access P1 if p pointed at P1.
You don’t get to define what memory safety means in Fil-C. I have defined it here: https://fil-c.org/gimso
Not every memory safe language defines it the same way. Python and JavaScript have a weaker definition since they both have powerful reflection including eval and similar superpowers. Rust has a weaker definition if you consider that you can use `unsafe`. Go has a weaker definition if you consider that tearing in Go leads to actual weird execution (attacker gets to pop the entire Go type system). Java’s definition is most similar to Fil-C’s, but even there you could argue both ways (Java has more unsafe code in its implementation while Fil-C doesn’t have the strict aliasing of Java’s type system).
You can always argue that someone else’s language isn’t memory safe if you allow yourself to define memory safety in a different way. That’s not a super useful line of argumentation, though it is amusing and fun
Nobody is trying to hide the existence of "eval" or "unsafe". You're making a categorical claim of safety that's true only under a tendentious reading of common English words. Users reading your claims will come away with a mistaken faith in your system's guarantees.
Let us each invest according to our definitions.
* Depending on how WASM is used, one gets safety guarantees. For example, memory is not executable.
* Privileges are reduced as a WASM module interacts with the environment through the WASM runtime and the embedder
Now, when one compiles C to WASM one may well compile things with bugs. A memory access bug in C is still a memory access bug, but its consequences can be limited in WASM execution. Whether fail-stop behavior is guaranteed actually depends on the code the C compiler generates and the runtime (allocation/deallocation, concurrency) it sets up.
So when we enumerate immediately available security options and count WASM as sandboxing, this is not wrong. But WASM being an execution environment, one could do a lot of things, including a way of compiling and executing C that panics when a memory access bug is encountered.
C is actually really safe, it only depends on how it is being used.
Say your C program has sensitive information in module A and a memory safety bug in module B. Running that program in wasm won’t prevent the attacker from using the bug in B to get read/write access to the data in A.
In practice what the attacker will really do is use the memory safety bug to achieve weird execution: even without control over the program counter, the fact that a memory safety bug inside the wasm memory gives read write access to all of that memory means the attacker can make the program do whatever they want, subject to the wasm sandbox limits (ie whatever the host allows the wasm guest to do).
Basically wasm amounts to a lightweight and portable replacement for running native code in a sufficiently sandboxed process
1. Wasm does provide some amount of memory safety even to compiled C code. For example, the call stack is entirely protected. Also, indirect calls are type-checked, etc.
2. Wasm can provide memory safety if you compile to WasmGC. But, you can't really compile C to that, of course...
WASM couldn’t do that because it doesn’t have a sense of the C memory model nor know what is and isn’t safe - that information has long been lost. That kind of protection is precisely what Fil-C is doing.
WASM is memory safe in that you can’t escape the runtime. It’s not memory safe in that you can escape escape the program running within the sandbox, which you can’t do with a memory safe language like Rust or Fil-C.
I wonder how they fit into the picture.
It would require a bit of porting (since Fil-C currently assumes you have all of the Linux syscalls). But you could probably even lift some of the microVM’s functionality into Fil-C’s memory safe userland.
So I would very much disagree with the statement that memory safety and sandboxing are orthogonal. They are certainly different. Linearly independent even. But with a fair amount of overlap.
Library authors you can't configure seccomp themselves, because the allowlist must be coordinated with everything else in the whole process, and there's no established convention for negotiating that.
Seccomp has its own pain points, like being sensitive to libc implementation details and kernel versions/architectures (it's hard to know what syscalls you really need). It can't filter by inputs behind pointers, most notably can't look at any file paths, which is very limiting and needs even more out-of-process setup.
This makes seccomp sandboxing something you add yourself to your application, for your specific deployment environment, not something that's a language built-in or an ecosystem-wide feature.
Go has the same problems I’m describing in my post. Maybe those folks haven’t done the work to make the Go runtime safe for sandboxing, like what I did for Fil-C.
Calling it memory safe is a bit of a stretch when all it does is convert memory errors to runtime panics, or am I missing something? I mean, that’s still good, just less than I’d expect given the recent hype of fil-c being the savior for making C a competitive language again.
ASan works by (simplifying a lot) padding allocations and surrounding them with untouchable "red zone". So with some luck even this can work:
char *a = new char[100];
char *b = new char[1000];
a[500] = 0; // may end up in bNot that crashing can't be bad, as we saw recently with Cloudflare's recent unwrap-based incident.
The usual situation is like what chrome or OpenSSH want:
- They want to be able to do dangerous things by design. Chrome wants to save downloads. Chrome wants to call rendering APIs. OpenSSH wants to pop a shell.
- They want to deal with untrusted inputs. Chrome downloads things off the internet and parses them. OpenSSH has a protocol that it parses.
So you want to split your process into two with privilege separation:
- one process has zero privileges and does the parsing of untrusted inputs.
- another process has high privilege but never deals with untrusted inputs.
And then the two processes have some carefully engineered IPC protocol for talking to one another.
Could you run the deprivileged process in a VM for maximum security? Yeah that’s one way to do it. But it’s cleaner to run it as a normal process, ask the OS to sandbox it (deprivilege it), and then have a local domain socket (or whatever) that the two processes can use to communicate.
If you used a VM for deprivileging then:
- There’d be more overhead. Chrome wants to do this per origin per tab. OpenSSH wants to do it per connection. Maybe a VM is too much
- You could put the whole browser into the VM but then you’d still need something outside it for saving files. And probably for talking to the GPU. You could run OpenSSH in the VM but then that defeats the purpose (you want to use it to pop a shell after all).
- You can use vsocks and other things to communicate between host and guest but it’s much more gross than the options available when using traditional process sandboxing
You're getting cool tech for free. You can use it or not use it. Complaining about the name is weird.