What Makes You Senior
35 points
15 hours ago
| 9 comments
| terriblesoftware.org
| HN
oh_my_goodness
8 hours ago
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It's just a pay grade. Please folks stop trying to analyze "junior," "senior," and so forth. It's just something management told HR to write down.
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WhyOhWhyQ
7 hours ago
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When did this "junior/senior" lingo get cool? I don't remember it being used when I was young. Maybe the leet code trend brought on a sort of gamification of the profession, with ranks etc..?
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raw_anon_1111
5 hours ago
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As a 51 year old, I hate when other old people think that “back in my day things were different”

> Evans has held his present position with IBM since 1965. Previously, he had been a vice president of the Fed- eral Systems Division with the man- agement responsibility for developing large computing systems; the culmina- tion of this work was the IBM/System 360. He joined IBM in 1951 as a junior engineer and has held a variety of engineering and management posi- tions within the corporation

Dated 1969

https://bitsavers.org/magazines/Computer_Design/Computer_Des...

Next meme that needs to die: “back in my day, developers did it for the love and not the money”

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WhyOhWhyQ
4 hours ago
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The title has always existed. I meant the obsession about being a "a junior" or "a senior", like gaining an achievement in a video game or something. I just thought every young person was a junior engineer and every old person was as senior engineer.
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raw_anon_1111
4 hours ago
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You don’t get to be a senior engineer just because of tenure. It’s not gaming the system to expect a level to be based on the amount of responsibility and not just from getting 1 year of experience 10x.

You want a promotion because you want more money. Even though I have found the difference to not be that great on the enterprise dev side. But in BigTech and adjacent, we are talking about multiple six figures differences as you move up.

I work in consulting and our bill rate is based on our title/level of responsibility. It kills me that some non customer facing consultants want to have a “career track” that doesn’t involve leading projects and strategy and want to stay completely “hands on”.

We can hire people cheaply from outside the country that can do that. There is an IC career track that is equal to a director (manager of managers). But you won’t get there hands on keyboard.

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moondev
2 hours ago
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The bigger the company the less impressive "senior" is. There are probably three levels of staff above it and then distinguished super fellow territory.
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raw_anon_1111
1 hour ago
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A senior software engineer can easily make $300-400K+ at BigTech that’s “impressive” enough to me.

On the other hand, a “senior” working at a bank or other large non tech company will probably be making less than $175K if you aren’t working on the west coast.

For instance Delta

https://www.levels.fyi/companies/delta-air-lines/salaries

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WhyOhWhyQ
4 hours ago
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I'm deleting my hn account. Have a good day.
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raw_anon_1111
6 hours ago
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It’s way more than a “pay grade” for any company with real leveling guidelines.

This jibes with both my personal experience at BigTech, knowing the industry and various publicly available leveling guidelines. Sone are more granular

https://www.levels.fyi/blog/swe-level-framework.html

https://dropbox.github.io/dbx-career-framework/

The company I work for now has similar leveling guidelines, it’s also more granular.

But levels are defined by scope, impact, and dealing with ambiguity

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tayo42
6 hours ago
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How I became a staff engineer with 3 yoe making 140k/year
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raw_anon_1111
6 hours ago
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And making $25K less than a new grad at BigTech…
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oh_my_goodness
6 hours ago
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By 1 weird trick?
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onion2k
9 hours ago
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A very important skill for Senior engineers not mentioned in the article is an ability to take the initiative on something. For example, when a dev sees a bug in an area of code they aren't responsible for and thinks "I'll raise an issue for that and mention it to the product manager so we can get it fixed" instead of "Oh, a bug", then they're starting to show that senior mindset. It's a desire to make the whole of the software good rather than just the little bit they work on good.
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bdangubic
6 hours ago
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I have literally never seen or thought of this as “senior” thing. if anyone on the team regardless of their seniority does not operate this way they will see a quick exit to some other place
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hoss1474489
9 hours ago
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I like this. I more generally look for reduces chaos.

I’ve seen the pursuit of disambiguation employed to deadlock a project. Sometimes that’s the right thing to do—the project sponsor doesn’t know what they want. But many times the senior needs to document some assumptions and ship something rather than frustrating the calendars of 15 people trying to nail down some exact spec. Knowing whether to step on the brake or the gas for the benefit of the team and company is a key senior trait.

This is a yes, and to the article; building without understanding the problem usually will increase chaos—though sometimes the least effort way through it is to build a prototype, and a senior would know when to do that and how to scope it.

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terrillw
10 hours ago
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Great article. The key things often missing in meetings discussing a vague problem is do we really understand the problem and how do we make concrete progress. Its a hard skill and often just comes through experience - being able to put yourself in the user's shoes to understand their problem, and knowing based on past experience, how to execute. That is the value of seniority.
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andsbf
9 hours ago
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Oh, so it isn’t about know to solve any leetcode?

Good to hear it

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Razengan
2 hours ago
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When someone calls you senpai
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z3ratul163071
1 hour ago
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age
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moralestapia
11 hours ago
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This sounds cool but reality is much more boring than that. If your work title says "Senior" then you're Senior.
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onion2k
9 hours ago
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Based on a number of people I've worked with whose job title was Senior Engineer, it isn't that.
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ursAxZA
8 hours ago
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Sometimes that’s true. Sometimes it isn’t. This seems to be a discussion about the latter.
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raw_anon_1111
10 hours ago
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Until you get to a behavioral interview at your n+1 job…
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moralestapia
9 hours ago
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What's that supposed to mean?
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raw_anon_1111
8 hours ago
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These are typical questions I ask when I’m interviewing a senior developer:

“Tell me about a project you’re most proud of?” Then I’m going to start asking questions about your decision making process, how you dealt with complexity and ambiguity, etc.

If all you did was pull well defined tickets off the Jira board, you’re not going to be able to answer that question well and you aren’t the type of person I’m going to delegate a very ambiguous assignment where you have to make good architectural and organizational decisions and have to deal with “the business” to disambiguate.

The next question would be “Looking at your resume, I see you have $x years of experience, if you could go back to one of your earlier projects, what choices would you have made differently knowing what you know now?”

If you haven’t led any major initiative, what are you going to say? “I would have pulled more tickets off the board?”

I interviewed someone from AWS at my last job, he thought he was a shoo in especially after he looked on LinkedIn and saw that I was from AWS. I guess he thought he was going to be reversing a binary tree.

No matter what I asked, he couldn’t describe anything he had done of note except be on a team who did stuff. I asked him had he led any features, presented any “six pagers” internally, blog posts on the AWS site, presentations - he had done nothing.

I passed over him for a guy at an unknown company who could talk about where he “took ownership”. That’s one of the Amazon BS Leadership Principals.

Hell I had a public footprint at AWS after only 3.5 years I had been there as a mid level L5 employee.

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paulcole
1 hour ago
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Bro thinks this is unique to engineers.
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