Something I haven't seen talked about, though, is how powerful the type system is for constraining LLMs when using them to generate code. I was recently trying to get LLMs to generate code for a pretty vague and complex task in Haskell. I wasn't having much luck until I defined a very clear set of types and organized them into a very clear and constrained interface that I asked the LLM to code to. Then the results were much better!
Sure, you can use these same techniques in less strongly typed languages like Rust, and you can probably also use a similar approach in dynamically typed languages, but Haskell's pure functions allow you to create much stronger guard rails constraining what kinds of code the LLM can write.
But since purity is not encoded in Rust's type system, any function might do any kind of IO -- in particular, read from or write to disk or one of the DBs. That makes the logic much harder to reason about.
(Also, Rust's syntax is so noisy and verbose that it's harder to see what's going on, and less context fits in my head at one time. I'm getting better at paying that cost, but I wish it weren't there.)
I can't say I made the wrong decision, but I often fantasize about moving most of the logic into Haskell and just calling Rust from Haskell when I need to call TypeDB from Rust.
Actor-like patterns makes this nice. Message-objects can be passed to/from a module with db-access or other io.
reply with one-line haskell source code ONLY: implement the function projectPair :: (Field1 s s a a, Field2 s s b b) => Lens s s (a, b) (a, b)
lens (\s -> (s^._1, s^._2)) (\s (a,b) -> s & _1 .~ a & _2 .~ b)
I suppose LLMs are good for this and other extremely constrained forms of boilerplate production. I consider it an incremental improvement over go codegen. Everything else I still tend to hand-write, because I don't consider source code production the bottleneck of software development.
This reliability isn't done by being perfect 100% of the time. Things like being able to handle states where transactions don't line up allowing for payments to eventually be settled. Or for telecom allowing for single parts of the system to not take down the whole thing or adding redundancy. Essentially these types of businesses require fault tolerance to be supported. The real world is messy, there is always going to be faults, so investing heavily into correctness may not be worth it compared to investing into fault tollerance.
My point is narrower: those mechanisms still benefit from making illegal transitions unrepresentable (e.g. explicit state machines) so your retries/idempotency don’t create new failure modes. It’s not correctness vs tolerance, it’s correctness inside tolerant designs.
My angle was narrower: static types + ADTs improve the engineering loop (refactors, code review, test construction) by turning whole classes of mistakes into compiler errors. That’s not “what FP is”, it’s one very effective reliability layer that many FP ecosystems emphasize.
Even purity is not something exclusive to FP, D and Nim also support separating pure from impure functions. And if you ask me, the reason not many other languages have support for that is that in practice, it has been demonstrated again and again that it’s just not nearly as useful as you may think. Effects, as in Unison and Flix, generalizes the concept to include many more concepts than just purity and may perhaps prove more useful in general purpose programming, but the jury is still out on this.
In dynamic languages, you are the type system.
This comment is either severe snark or severe ignorance.
I also ship code super fast. When I find bugs I just fix them on the spot. When I find variables named wrong, I just rename them. The result that I often smash bugfixes and features and cleanup together and have a messy git history, but on the flip side you'll never find bugs or naming deceptions that I've left sitting for years. If something is wrong and I can reproduce it (usually easy in functional code), the debugger and I are going to get to the bottom of it, and quickly. Always and only forward!
I’ve used languages with an approach like this. The difference in what I’ve used is that you separate the conventional part from the rest of the name with a space (or maybe a colon), then only refer to the value by the non-conventional part for the rest of the scope. Then the language enforces this convention for all of my co-workers! It’s pretty neat.
Perhaps the most direct inspiration I took from there though was from the wonderful "opaque types" feature that Flow supports (https://flow.org/en/docs/types/opaque-types/) which for reasons known only to Hejlsberg and God, Typescript has never adopted; thus most people are unfamiliar with that way of thinking.
This is important. I threw my hands up and gave up during the height of the Haskell craze. You'd see people here saying things like LISP wasn't real FP because it didn't match their Haskell-colored expectations. Meanwhile for decades LISP was *the* canonical example of FP.
Similar to you, now I talk about specific patterns and concepts instead of calling a language functional. Also, as so many of these patterns & concepts have found their way into mainstream languages now, that becomes even more useful.
Rust is actually aligned with the point: it delivers major reliability wins via making invalid states harder to represent (enums, ownership/borrowing, pattern matching). That’s not “FP-first,” but it’s very compatible with functional style and the same invariants story.
If the TS example came off as “types instead of validation,” that’s on me to phrase better, the point wasn’t “types eliminate validation,” it’s “types make the shape explicit so validation becomes harder to forget and easier to review.”
For example, using the input parsing scenario, a Java 1.0 tutorial in 1995 would have said that you should create a TimeDuration class which parses the input and throws an exception when given an invalid value like “30s”. If you say that reliability requires FP, how would you respond when they point out that their code also prevents running with an invalid value? That discussion can be far more educational, especially because it might avoid derails around specific issues which are really just restating the given that JavaScript had lots of footgun opportunities for the unwary developer, even compared to some languages their grandmother might have used.
Haha as someone who has worked in one of these domains using FP even - I wish the people in charge agreed with you!
Reliability is a cost center and Product-oriented Builders treat it as such.
Part of why I like “make invalid states unrepresentable” approaches is exactly that: it’s one of the few reliability investments that can pay back during feature work (safer refactors, fewer regressions), not only during incidents.
and this company is hugely successful. so i've learned that the biggest competitive advantage in fintech is flagrant disregard for correctness and compliance.
i'm glad i have a csuite with the stones to execute that. i am way too principled.
There are constant data bugs in the feeds provided by major exchanges, market makers, etc, and so many iffy business rules that are basically all encoded in 100+ tab excel sheets.
Maybe this article focuses on a very specific niche of banking, but most of it is tied together with FTP and excel sheets.
I think the author would be shocked just how flaky a fundamental banking protocol like SWIFT is.
That’s exactly why I argue for stronger internal modeling: when the boundary is dirty, explicit state machines/ADTs + exhaustiveness + idempotency/reconciliation help ensure bad feeds don’t silently create invalid internal states.
I can understand treating social network sites as less critical, of course.
The reason money-related systems often get singled out is the combination of irreversibility and auditability: a bad state transition can mean incorrect balances/settlement, messy reconciliation, regulatory reporting, and long-tail customer harm that persists after the outage is over.
That said, my point isn’t “finance is special therefore FP.” It’s “build resilience and correctness by design early”, explicit state machines/invariants, idempotency/reconciliation, and making invalid states hard to represent. Doing this from the beginning also improves the developer experience: safer refactors, clearer reviews, fewer ‘tribal knowledge’ bugs.
In other areas like lost sales or failures of the system there is lot more arguments. On other hand if you are rich enough and can prove the other side is off by sufficiently large amount of money you can bring the hammer down with facts.
Using a schema/spec/type library at runtime that is even more powerful than ADTs is a better investment - or to be less controversial - is an additional investment on top of types.
Yes, it means the compiler can't help you as much, but who has time waiting for a compiler anyways ;)
I find the "make illegal state unrepresentable via types" idea great for software that needs to fly a plane, but for enterprise software not so much. The cost/benefit is not justifiable.
But this isn't a falsifiable claim. We cannot possibly know if this is true or not.
- Not all of banking and telecom use functional programming or even static typing.
- Functional programming often leads to write-only incomprehensible code; the exact opposite of what you need to have a reliable system.
- There's no hard evidence that static typing improves reliability. Only vibes and feels.
In the spectrum of runtime errors statically typed languages mathematically and logically HAVE less errors. That by itself is the definition of more reliable. This isn’t even a scientific thing related to falsifiability. This comes from pure mathematical logic. In science nothing can be proven, things can only be falsified. But in math and logic things can be proven and it is provable that static types are more reliable than untyped.
It is definitely not vibes and feels. Not all of banking uses statically typed languages but they are as a result living with a less reliable system then the alternative and that is a logical invariant.
There are many reasons why someone would choose untyped over typed but reliability is not a reason why they would do this unless they are ignorant.
There is nothing inevitable about the consequence you’re imagining because statically typed languages also reject correct programs.
How does a statically typed language rejecting a correct program affect reliability? The two concepts are orthogonal. You’re talking about flexibility of a language but the topic is on reliability.
Let me be clear… as long as a language is Turing complete you can get it to accomplish virtually any task. In a statically typed language you have less ways to accomplish the same task then a dynamically typed language; but both languages can accomplish virtually any task. By logic a dynamically typed language is categorically more flexible than a static one but it is also categorically less reliable.
Because in some cases it will reject code that is simple and obviously correct, which will then need to be replaced by code that is less simple and less obviously correct (but which satisfies the type checker). I don't think this happens most of the time, but it does mean that static typing isn't a strict upgrade in terms of reliability. You are paying for the extra guarantees on the code you can write by giving up lots of correct programs that you could otherwise have written.
This is so completely untrue that I'm confused as to why anyone would try to claim it. Type Confusion is an entire class of error and CVE that happens in statically typed languages. Java type shenanigans are endless if you want some fun but baseline you can cast to arbitrary types at runtime and completely bypass all compile time checks.
I think the disagreement would come additionally by saying a language like Ruby doesn't actually have any type errors. Like how it can be said that GC languages can't have memory leaks. And that this model is stronger than just compile time checking. Sure you get a thing called TypeError in Ruby but because of the languages dynamism that's not an error the way it would be in C. You can just catch it and move. It doesn't invalidate the program's correctness. Ruby is so safe in it's execution model that Syntax Errors don't invalidate the running program's soundness.
For this reason Java is a bad example of a typed language. It gives static typing a bad rep because of its inflexible yet unreliable type system (only basic type inference, no ADTs, many things like presence of equality not checked at compile time etc ) Something like ocaml or fsharp have much more sound and capable type systems.
What I am saying is not untrue. It is definitive. Java just has a broken type system and it has warped your view. The article is more talking about type systems from functional programming languages where type errors are literally impossible.
You should check out elm. It’s one of the few languages (that is not a toy language and is deployed to production) where the type system is so strong that run time errors are impossible. You cannot crash an elm program because the type system doesn’t allow it. If you used that or Haskell for a while in a non trivial way it will give you deeper insight into why types matter.
> Ruby is so safe in it's execution model that Syntax Errors don't invalidate the running program's soundness.
This isn’t safety. Safety is when the program doesn’t even run or compile with a syntax error. Imagine if programs with syntax errors still tried their best effort to run… now you have a program with unknown behavior because who knows what that program did with the syntax error? Did it ignore it? Did it try to correct it? Now imagine that ruby program controlling a plane. That’s not safe.
In what language?
… I mean, if we’re just making global assertions :)
Gimme the “write only” compiler verified exhaustively pattern matched non-mutable clump in a language I can mould freely any day of the week. I will provide the necessary semantic layer for progress backed with compiler guarantees. That same poop pile in a lesser language may be unrecoverable.
I'm curious how you came to that conclusion?
https://pleiad.cl/papers/2012/kleinschmagerAl-icpc2012.pdf
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/springer-journals/an-empirical-s...
The first paper shown above was presented at ICPC, which has a history of bias in reviewing, and typically only assigns one or two reviewers in any case.
Which makes it not surprising that the paper itself doesn't really prove anything, except that the authors themselves are good at creating dissimilar situations.
Subjects had to modify existing systems, which were provided by the experimenters.
The experimenters deliberately removed any semblance of anything that might hint at types (comments, variable names, etc.) and did who the fuck knows what else to the dynamically typed code to make it difficult to work with.
They also provided their own IDE and full environment which the participants had to use.
Now, of course, we've all seen the graphs which show that for simple problems, dynamic is better, and there's a crossover point, and, of course Cooley's experiment is on the far left of that graph, so it certainly doesn't prove that strict static typing isn't better for large programs, but it's at least honest in its approach and results, using self-selected working practitioners (and there was never any shortage of working practioners swearing by how much better VHDL is).
So, we can safely disregard these papers. They got exactly the result that they sought out to get, and the papers were published because they confirmed the preexisting groupthink.
Medicine that involves testing human subject response to treatments is very different from the papers you’re citing and does involve falsifiable theses (usually, definitely not always).
My point about human subjects is in the context of the linked studies.
I’m not super interested in further debating human subjects in science generally
> But this isn't a falsifiable claim.
Saying "this isn't falsifiable" is a wild claim. Indeed the claim "functional programming and static typing make things more reliable" is falsifiable, as long as you admit a statistical understanding. The world is messy and experiments have noise, so what would you use if not statistics? Anecdotes?: no. Purely deductive methods?: no; we should not expect any single technique to be a silver bullet.
Good studies and analyses lay out a causal model and use strong methodologies for showing that some factor has a meaningful impact on some metric of interest. I recommend this as a starting point [1]
[1]: https://yanirseroussi.com/2016/05/15/diving-deeper-into-caus...
> [Most production incidents] are due to the code entering a state that should never have been possible.
I have never seen evidence that this is even remotely true, and I've been looking at software reliability research in the last few months.
Instead, it is more true that most production incidents are due to the system entering into one of thousands of unsafe states which were possible and latent in production potentially for years. In a sufficiently complex system—all interesting and important software projects—functional programming is not strong enough a tool to prevent even a sliver of potential accidents.
> Arguments that these degraded conditions should have been recognized before the overt accident are usually predicated on naïve notions of system performance. System operations are dynamic, with components (organizational, human, technical) failing and being replaced continuously. — https://how.complexsystems.fail/
OP says (your quote):
> [Most production incidents] are due to the code entering a state that should never have been possible.
You say:
> [...] it is more true that most production incidents are due to the system entering into one of thousands of unsafe states which were possible and latent in production potentially for years
I see you both agree that a broken system enters an "unsafe state" (your words) or a "state that should never have been possible" (OP's words).
"Unsafe state" and "state that should not have been possible" are, in practice in a real system, the same practical thing. I suspect you both would agree "system confuses a string for an integer and acts based on erroneous value" or "system acts on internal state that indicates the valve is both open and closed" would be states that a system should not be in. Outside pedantry, your descriptions are practically synonymous with each other.
Reliability should be simpler with FP but so much depends on correctness of the runtime and IO.
Erlang and the "run correctly or die" comes to mind as well. The system is either working or is off. When being off is fatal, Erlang seems to shrug and say "maybe next karmic cycle" maybe this too is a better approach?
Pure functions/immutability help a lot because tests become representative and cheap. I’d only push back on “tests of all equivalent scenarios” being sufficient, the space explodes and many real failures live at I/O/concurrency/distributed boundaries. My intended claim is that FP/ADTs/types reduce the state space and improve the ROI of tests, not replace them.
Any insights as to how to get effective determinism without pure functions?
Pure functions win here because we only have to reason about the function arguments. Reasoning is easier when you have to less of it! Without pure functions, the state space explodes, because anything anywhere could have a side-effect — madness, I say! — so how would you figure out equivalent states? Special case inspection I suppose?
There is a continuum between "anything goes" and "pure functions". From a certain light, all the varieties of encapsulation can be seen as explorations of this theme. (An idea: perhaps there are languages where side-effects can be circumscribed in ways that don't rely on the high bar of pure functions?)
The arguments against pure functions appear to be somewhat contingent: current adoption levels, practice, convenience, and taste. Things that are contingent have a way of changing over time as new methods emerge and new values take hold.
I don't hold shallow human preferences in high regard. As an example, many humans and organizations in practice trade security for convenience, at significant cost — especially when that cost is external to them.
At the same time, onerous tasks encourage work-arounds. This is the crux of it I think: unless people perceive the value of pure functions (to do what they want to do), some will seek shortcuts. So we need some combination of (1) making them easier to work with; (2) motivating people to aspire to higher principles; namely, high quality software that does not open to door to exploitation, misuse, botnets, etc; and/or (3) internalize the external costs.
As an example of (3), if people and companies faced predictable and commensurate costs when their flawed software inflicts harm on others, they would be more inclined to care about correctness.
At least with many GUIs, the time it would take to know, document and/or test all combinations of UI behaviors quickly exceeds the time available to humans. It's at least tractable to start with vastly more states than could ever be measured, and then gate or special-case certain ones to try to make things minimally safe/sane/reliable for the user.
Functional programming: no, functional programming as in: the final program consists in piping functions together and calling the pipe. In my opinion, that tends to get in the way of complex error handling.
The problem being that raising Exceptions at a deep level and catching them at some higher level is not pure functional programming. So your code has to deal with all the cases. It is more reliable if you can do it, but large systems have way too many failure points to be able to handle them all in a way that is practical.
So yes, generating errors at a deep level and catching them at a higher one is a normal pard of the system design, it's purely functional, ando nothing strange happens, in very large systems. You ADT the errors, pipe up entire families of them, and select what you manage. It's significantly easier than exceptions, in the sense that I can be sure when I've validated the error.
It's practical, and typically one dedicates less code to the error handling than, say, yor typical enterprise Java program that is terrified of runtime exceptions and null checks every step of the way. In fact, I'd argue this is the main selling point of strongly typed FP.
You’ve just reinvented checked exceptions, good job.
Agree. In Java, Streams allow you to process collections in a functional style. This feature enables concise, expressive data manipulation with operations like map, filter, and reduce.
Some people point out that Java's checked exceptions spoil the simplicity and elegance of Streams by forcing you to handle exceptions.
But that's not a reason to not have checked exceptions, it is a reason to not do functional style composition when methods can throw exceptions. Streams was invented for collections, which tend not to throw exceptions. If proper error handling is important don't do Streams.
`map` is a lot more than a fancy for-loop for lists and arrays; it's about abstracting away the entire idea of context. Java streams aren't a substitute for what you have in Haskell.
Not if you program it with a mutable god object to mimic creating a new big state, then you have exactly the same kind of issues.
The issue is if you try to program a transaction flow using object oriented programming, that is not very good, and most work programmers do revolves around involves flows. But when it doesn't then functional programming isn't a very good or reliable solution.
Have you done any FP? That's not how you do FP.
"""The typestate pattern is an API design pattern that encodes information about an object’s run-time state in its compile-time type. In particular, an API using the typestate pattern will have:
- Operations on an object (such as methods or functions) that are only available when the object is in certain states,
- A way of encoding these states at the type level, such that attempts to use the operations in the wrong state fail to compile,
- State transition operations (methods or functions) that change the type-level state of objects in addition to, or instead of, changing run-time dynamic state, such that the operations in the previous state are no longer possible.
This is useful because:
- It moves certain types of errors from run-time to compile-time, giving programmers faster feedback.
- It interacts nicely with IDEs, which can avoid suggesting operations that are illegal in a certain state.
- It can eliminate run-time checks, making code faster/smaller."""
Some other languages can do it as well: see [2] for a discussion.
[1]: https://cliffle.com/blog/rust-typestate/
[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/17l8eez/is_there_any_...
In intuitionistic logic (which is the most basic kind from which to view the Curry-Howard or "propositions-as-types" correspondence), a proof of "A or B" is exactly a choice of "left" or "right" disjunct together with a corresponding proof of either A or B. The "choice tag" is part of the "constructive data" telling us how to build our proof of "A or B". Translated back into the language of code, the type "A | B" would be exactly a tagged union.
In practice, the cohabitants in Option/Result types are almost always disjoint. So you spend time wrapping/unwrapping Some/Ok/Err for no value add.
Now I do see where you are coming from; under a set-theoretic interpretation with "implies" as "subset", "or" as "union", and "and" as "intersection", the fact that "A implies (A or B)" tells us that an element of the set A is also an element of the set "A union B".
However, this is not the interpretation that leads to a straightforward correspondence between logic and programming. For example, we would like "A and B" to correspond to the type of pairs of elements of A with elements of B, which is not at all the set-theoretic intersection. And while "(A and B) implies A", we do not want to say a value of type "(A, B)" also has type "A". (E.g., if a function expects an "A" and receives an "(A, A)", we are at an impasse.)
So "implies" should not be read programmatically as a subtyping relation; instead, "A implies B" tells us that there is a function taking a value of type A to a value of type B. In the case of "A implies (A or B)", that function takes its input and tags it as belonging to the left disjunct!
Another perspective I must mention: given a proof of "A or B" and another of "(A or B) implies C", how can we combine these into a simpler proof of just "C"? A proof of "(A or B) implies C" must contain both a proof a "A implies C" and a proof of "B implies C", and we could insert into one those proofs a proof of A or a proof of B. But we have to know which one we have! (This is a very short gloss of a much deeper story, where, under Curry-Howard, proof simplification corresponds to computation, and this is another way of describing a function call that does a case-analysis of a tagged union (or "sum type").)
Now "union and intersection" types with the set-theoretic properties you are hinting at have indeed been studied (see, for example, Section 15.7 of Pierce's "Types and Programming Languages"). But they do not replace the much more familiar "sum and product types", and do not play the central role of "or" and "and" in the correspondence of programming to logic.
Tagged unions/ADTs make the discriminant explicit, which is exactly why they tend to be reliability-friendly: exhaustive matches + explicit constructors reduce “guessing” and refactor breakage.
That said, I agree the ergonomics matter, TS-style discriminated unions are basically “tagged” too once you add a kind field, for example.
dude .. wut?? Explain to me exactly how this is true, with a real world example.
From where I stand, untagged unions are useful in an extremely narrow set of circumstances. Tagged unions, on the other hand, are incredibly useful in a wide variety of applications.
A similar case applies to function parameters: In case of relaxed parameter requirements, changing a parameter from String to String|Null is trivial, but a change from String to Option<String> would necessitate changing all the call sites.
> From where I stand, untagged unions are useful in an extremely narrow set of circumstances. Tagged unions, on the other hand, are incredibly useful in a wide variety of applications.
Any real world example?
For API evolution, T | null can be a pragmatic “relax/strengthen contract” knob with less mechanical churn than Option<T> (because many call sites don’t care and just pass values through). That said, it also makes it easier to accidentally reintroduce nullability and harder to enforce handling consistently, the failure mode is “it compiles, but someone forgot the check.”
In practice, once the union has more than “nullable vs present”, people converge to discriminated unions ({ kind: "ok", ... } | { kind: "err", ... }) because the explicit tag buys exhaustiveness and avoids ambiguous narrowing. So I’d frame untagged unions as great for very narrow cases (nullability / simple widening), and tagged/discriminated unions as the reliability default for domain states.
For reliability, I’d rather pay the mechanical churn of Option<T> during API evolution than pay the ongoing risk tax of “nullable everywhere.
My post argues for paying costs that are one-time and compiler-enforced (refactors) vs costs that are ongoing and human-enforced (remembering null checks).
Two places where I still see tagged/discriminated unions win in practice:
1. Scaling beyond nullability. Once the union has multiple variants with overlapping structure, “untagged” narrowing becomes either ambiguous or ends up reintroducing an implicit tag anyway (some sentinel field / predicate ladder). An explicit tag gives stable, intention-revealing narrowing + exhaustiveness.
2. Boundary reality. In languages like TypeScript (even with strictNullChecks), unions are routinely weakened by any, assertions, JSON boundaries, or library types. Tagged unions make the “which case is this?” explicit at the value level, so the invariant survives serialization/deserialization and cross-module boundaries more reliably.
So I’d summarize it as: T | null is a great ergonomic tool for one axis (presence/absence) when the type system is enforced end-to-end. For domain states, I still prefer explicit tags because they keep exhaustiveness and intent robust as the system grows.
If you’re thinking Scala 3 / a sound type system end-to-end, your point is stronger; my caution is mostly from TS-in-the-wild + messy boundaries.
Yeah, that's exactly why I want a tagged union; so when I make a change, the compiler tells me where I need to go to do updates to my system, instead of manually hunting around for all the sites.
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The only time an untagged union is appropriate is when the tag accounts for an appreciable amount of memory in a system that churns through a shit-ton of data, and has a soft or hard realtime performance constraint. Other than that, there's just no reason to not use a tagged union, except "I'm lazy and don't want to", which, sometimes, is also a valid reason. But it'll probably come back to bite you, if it stays in there too long.
> Yeah, that's exactly why I want a tagged union; so when I make a change, the compiler tells me where I need to go to do updates to my system, instead of manually hunting around for all the sites.
You don't have to do anything manually. There is nothing to do. Changing the return type of a function from String|Null to String is completely safe, the compiler knows that, so you don't have to do any "manual hunting" at call sites.
I'm unfamiliar with typescript, so in that language I don't have an opinion either way, but in C, you pretty much always want the tag
We aren't discussing unions in memory layout, but in type systems. This also clearly indicates you aren't qualified for this discussion.
If I have an untagged union in <language_of_your_choice>, and I'm iterating over an array of elements of type `Foo|Bar|Baz`, and I have to do a dynamic cast before accessing the element (runtime typecheck) .. I believe that must actually be a tagged union under the hood, whether or not you call it a tagged union or not... right? ie. How would the program possibly know at runtime what the type of a heterogeneous set of elements is without a tag value to tell it?
In hindsight I should have positioned types/ADTs as one layer in the reliability toolbox, not the toolbox.