Go Away Python
148 points
5 hours ago
| 25 comments
| lorentz.app
| HN
hamishwhc
3 hours ago
[-]
The author’s point about “not caring about pip vs poetry vs uv” is missing that uv directly supports this use case, including PyPI dependencies, and all you need is uv and your preferred Python version installed: https://docs.astral.sh/uv/guides/scripts/#using-a-shebang-to...
reply
meander_water
2 hours ago
[-]
Actually you can go one better:

  #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --python 3.14 --script
Then you don't even need python installed. uv will install the version of python you specified and run the command.
reply
dietr1ch
1 minute ago
[-]
Yeah, but you need `uv`. If we are reaching out for tools that might not be around, then you can also depend on nix-shell,

    #! /usr/bin/env nix-shell
    #! nix-shell -i python3 --packages python3
reply
rikafurude21
2 hours ago
[-]
alternatively, uv lets you do this:

  #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script
  #
  # /// script
  # requires-python = ">=3.12"
  # dependencies = ["foo"]
  # ///
reply
benrutter
3 hours ago
[-]
I thought that too, but I think the tricky bit is if you're a non-python user, this isn't yet obvious.

If you've never used Clojure and start a Clojure project, you will almost definitely find advice telling you to use Leiningen.

For Python, if you search online you might find someone saying to use uv, but also potentially venv, poetry or hatch. I definitely think uv is taking over, but its not yet ubiquitous.

Ironically, I actually had a similar thing installing Go the other day. I'd never used Go before, and installed it using apt only to find that version was too old and I'd done it wrong.

Although in that case, it was a much quicker resolution than I think anyone fighting with virtual environments would have.

reply
idoubtit
2 hours ago
[-]
That's my experience. I'm not a Python developer, and installing Python programs has been a mess for decades, so I'd rather stay away from the language than try another new tool.

Over the years, I've used setup.py, pip, pipenv (which kept crashing though it was an official recommendation), manual venv+pip (or virtualenv? I vaguely remember there were 2 similar tools and none was part of a minimal Python install). Does uv work in all of these cases? The uv doc pointed out by the GP is vague about legacy projects, though I've just skimmed through the long page.

IIRC, Python tools didn't share their data across projects, so they could build the same heavy dependencies multiple times. I've also seen projects with incomplete dependencies (installed through Conda, IIRC) which were a major pain to get working. For many years, the only simple and sane way to run some Python code was in a Docker image, which has its own drawbacks.

reply
lexicality
1 hour ago
[-]
> Does uv work in all of these cases?

Yes. The goal of uv is to defuck the python ecosystem and they're doing a very good job at it so far.

reply
prox
6 minutes ago
[-]
What are the big offenders right now? What does uv unfuck?

I only work a little bit with python.

reply
aeurielesn
37 minutes ago
[-]
That's giving way too much credit to uv.
reply
karel-3d
11 minutes ago
[-]
uv is really that good.
reply
simonw
1 hour ago
[-]
> IIRC, Python tools didn't share their data across projects, so they could build the same heavy dependencies multiple times.

One of the neatest features of uv is that it uses clever symlinking tricks so if you have a dozen different Python environments all with the same dependency there's only one copy of that dependency on disk.

reply
houzi
3 hours ago
[-]
Do you think a non-python user would piece it together if the shebang line reveals what tool to use?
reply
embedding-shape
1 hour ago
[-]
I've moved over mostly to uv too, using `uv pip` when needed but mostly sticking with `uv add`. But as soon as you start using `uv pip` you end up with all the drawbacks of `uv pip`, namely that whatever you pass after can affect earlier dependency resolutions too. Running `uv pip install dep-a` and then `... dep-b` isn't the same as `... dep-b` first and then `... dep-a`, or the same as `uv pip install dep-a dep-b` which coming from an environment that does proper dependency resolution and have workspaces, can be really confusing.

This is more of a pip issue than uv though, and `uv pip` is still preferable in my mind, but seems Python package management will forever be a mess, not even the bandaid uv can fix things like these.

reply
tgv
1 hour ago
[-]
Won't those dependencies then be global? With potential conflicts as a result?
reply
auxym
1 hour ago
[-]
uv uses a global cache but hardlinks the dependencies for your script into a temp venv that is only for your script, so its still pretty fast.
reply
stephenlf
1 hour ago
[-]
Nope! uv takes care of that. uv is a work of art.
reply
tgv
1 hour ago
[-]
Then I should seriously take a look at it. I figured it was just another package manager.
reply
t43562
40 minutes ago
[-]
....but you have to be able to get UV and on some platforms (e.g. a raspberry pi) it won't build because the version of rust is too old. So I wrote a script called "pv" in python which works a bit like uv - just enough to get my program to work. It made me laugh a bit, but it works anywhere, well enough for my usecase. All I had to do was embed a primitive AI generated TOML parser in it.
reply
fsmv
10 minutes ago
[-]
I made one of these too! I decided not to use // because I use gofmt auto formatting in my editor and it puts a space between the // and the usr. This one isn't changed by gofmt:

    /*?sr/bin/env go run "$0" "$@"; exit $? #*/
reply
PaulRobinson
3 hours ago
[-]
Mad genius stuff, this.

However... scripting requires (in my experience), a different ergonomic to shippable software. I can't quite put my finger on it, but bash feels very scriptable, go feels very shippable, python is somewhere in the middle, ruby is closer to bash, rust is up near go on the shippable end.

Good scripting is a mixture of OS-level constructs available to me in the syntax I'm in (bash obviously is just using OS commands with syntactic sugar to create conditional, loops and variables), and the kinds of problems where I don't feel I need a whole lot of tooling: LSPs, test coverage, whatever. It's languages that encourage quick, dirty, throwaway code that allows me to get that one-off job done the guy in sales needs on a Thursday so we can close the month out.

Go doesn't feel like that. If I'm building something in Go I want to bring tests along for the ride, I want to build a proper build pipeline somewhere, I want a release process.

I don't think I've thought about language ergonomics in this sense quite like this before, I'm curious what others think.

reply
skybrian
1 hour ago
[-]
Maybe the ergonomics of writing code is less of a problem if you have a quick way of asking an LLM to do the edits? We can optimize for readability instead.

More specifically, for the readability of code written by an LLM.

reply
dingdingdang
3 hours ago
[-]
Talking about Python "somewhere in the middle" - I had a demo of a simple webview gtk app I wanted to run on vanilla Debian setup last night.. so I did the canonical-thing-of-the-month and used uv to instantiate a venv and pull the dependencies. Then attempted to run the code.. mayhem. Errors indicating that the right things were in place but that the code still couldn't run (?) and finally Python Core Dumped.. OK. This is (in some shape or form) what happens every single time I give Python a fresh go for an idea. Eventually Golang is more verbose (and I don't particularly like the mod.go system either) but once things compile.. they run. They don't attempt running or require xyz OS specific hack.
reply
fireflash38
1 hour ago
[-]
Gtk makes that simple python program way more complex since it'll need more than pure-python dependencies.

It's really a huge pain point in python. Pure python dependencies are amazingly easy to use, but there's a lot of packages that depend on either c extensions that need to be built or have OS dependencies. It's gotten better with wheels and manylinux builds, but you can still shoot your foot off pretty easily.

reply
skeledrew
45 minutes ago
[-]
I'm pretty sure the gtk dependencies weren't built by Astral, which, yes, unfortunately means that it won't always just work, as they streamline their Python builds in... unusual ways. A few months ago I had a similar issue running a Tkinter project with uv, then all was well when I used conda instead.
reply
zelphirkalt
1 hour ago
[-]
How were the dependencies specified? What kind of files were provided for you to instantiate the venv?
reply
logicallee
2 hours ago
[-]
I haven't had the same issue with anaconda. Give it a try.
reply
dns_snek
1 hour ago
[-]
I've had similar issues with anaconda, once upon a time. I've hit a critical roadblock that ruined my day with every single Python dependency/environment tool except basic venv + requirements.txt, I think. That gets in the way the least but it's also not very helpful, you're stuck with requirements.txt which tends to be error-prone to manage.
reply
cl3misch
1 hour ago
[-]
> bash obviously is just using OS commands with syntactic sugar

No, bash is technically not "more" OS than e.g. Python. It just happens that bash is (often) the default shell in the terminal emulator.

reply
xg15
1 hour ago
[-]
Have to disagree, "technically" yes, both are interpreted languages, but the ergonomics and mental overhead of doing certain things are wildly different:

In python, doing math or complex string or collection operations is usually a simple oneliner, but calling shell commands or other OS processes requires fiddling with the subprocess module, writing ad-hoc streaming loops, etc - don't even start with piping several commands together.

Bash is the opposite: As long as your task can be structured as a series of shell commands, it absolutely shines - but as soon as you require custom data manipulation in any form, you'll run into awkward edge cases and arbitrary restrictions - even for things that are absolutely basic in other languages.

reply
t43562
45 minutes ago
[-]
The subprocess module is horrendous but even if it was great bash is simpler. I just think about trying to create a pipe of processes in python without the danger of blocking.
reply
skeledrew
53 minutes ago
[-]
I love Python and dislike Bash, but just look at the difference between listing a folder in Bash vs Python, for example.
reply
flufluflufluffy
2 hours ago
[-]
I don’t really understand the initial impetus. I like scripting in Python. That’s one of the things it’s good at. You can extremely quickly write up a simple script to perform some task, not worrying about types, memory, yada yada yada. I don’t like using Python as the main language for a large application.
reply
mr_toad
1 hour ago
[-]
I love scripting in Python too. I just hate trying to install other people’s scripts.
reply
flanked-evergl
1 hour ago
[-]
If they use https://packaging.python.org/en/latest/specifications/inline... then it becomes a breeze to run with uv. Not even a thing.
reply
graemep
1 hour ago
[-]
It seems to be Linux specific (does it even work on other unix like OSes?) and Linux usually has a system Python which is reasonably stable for things you need scripting for, whereas this requires go to be installed.

You could also use shell scripting or Python or another scripting language. While Python is not great at backward compatibility most scripts will have very few issues. Shell scripts are backward compatible as are many other scripting languages are very backward compatible (e.g. TCL) and they areG more likely to be preinstalled. If you are installing Go you could just install uv and use Python.

The article does say "I started this post out mostly trolling" which is part of it, but mostly the motivation would be that you have a strong preference for Go.

reply
Kuinox
1 hour ago
[-]
You do have to worry about types, you always do. You have to know, what did this function return, what can you do with it.

When you know well the language, you dont need to search for this info for basic types, because you remember them.

But that's also true for typed languages.

reply
g947o
51 minutes ago
[-]
While you are at it, might as well do this for C++ or assembly. You hate scripting so much and would rather go to great lengths to use a complied language and throw away all the benefits of a scripting language and scripting itself, just because you don't like the language, not because of technical merit. Congratulations, you just wasted yourself many hours of precious time.

> The price of convenience is difficulties to scale

Of course, they never scale. The moment you start thinking about scaling, you should stop writing code as throwaway scripts but build them properly. That's not an argument to completely get rid of Python or bash. The cost of converting Python code to Go is near zero these days if there is a need to do so. Enough has been said about premature optimization.

> Anyone who's ever tried to get python working on different systems knows what a steep annoying curve it is.

If you need 10 libraries of certain versions to run a few lines of Python code, nobody calls that a script anymore. It becomes a proper project that requires proper package management, just like Go.

reply
BobbyJo
48 minutes ago
[-]
There is a much larger gap in language ergonomics between python and C++ than between python and golang. Compile time and package management being some of the major downsides to C++.

"You'd rather drive a compact car than an SUV? Might as well drive a motorcycle then!"

reply
llmslave2
3 hours ago
[-]
I love it. I'm using Go to handle building full stack javascript apps, which actually works great since esbuild can be used directly inside a Go program. The issue is that it's a dependency, so I settled for having a go mod file and running it directly with Go. If somehow these dependencies could be resolved without an explicit module configured (say, it was inline in the go file itself) it would be perfect. Alas, it will probably never happen.

That being said...use Go for scripting. It's fantastic. If you don't need any third party libraries this approach seems really clean.

reply
itopaloglu83
17 minutes ago
[-]
> Sidetrack: I actually looked up what the point of arg0 even is since I failed to find any usecases some months back and found this answer.

I think arg0 was always useful especially when developing multifunctional apps like busybox that changes its behavior depending on the name it was executed as.

reply
esjeon
1 hour ago
[-]
Expected a rant, got a life-pro-tip. Enough for a good happy new year.

That said, we can abuse the same trick for any languages that treats `//` as comment.

List of some practical(?) languages: C/C++, Java, JavaScript, Rust, Swift, Kotlin, ObjC, D, F#, GLSL/HLSL, Groovy

Personally, among those languages, GLSL sounds most interesting. A single-GLSL graphics demo is always inspiring. (Something like https://www.shadertoy.com/ )

Also, let’s not forget that we can do something similar using block comment(`/* … */`). An example in C:

/*/../usr/bin/env gcc "$0" "$@"; ./a.out; rm -vf a.out; exit; */

#include <stdio.h>

int main() { printf("Hello World!\n"); return 0; }

reply
frizlab
1 hour ago
[-]
For Swift there’s even a project[1] that allows running scripts that have external dependencies (posting the fork because the upstream is mostly dead).

I think it’s uv’s equivalent, but for Swift.

(Also Swift specifically supports an actual shebang for Swift scripts.)

[1] https://github.com/xcode-actions/swift-sh

reply
rtpg
1 hour ago
[-]
You don't even need to end the file in `.go` or the like when using shebangs, and any self-respecting editor will be good at parsing out shebangs to identify file types (... well, Emacs seems to do it well enough for me)

no need to name your program foo.go when you could just name it foo

reply
magicalhippo
3 hours ago
[-]
You can do the same[1] with .Net Core for those of us who like that.

[1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/fundamentals...

reply
rr808
3 hours ago
[-]
dotnet was always really good for this. There were a bunch of third party tools that have done this since the 90s like toolsack.

I think Java can run uncompiled text scripts now too

reply
age123456gpg
3 hours ago
[-]
Official stance about supporting interpreter mode for the reference https://github.com/golang/go/issues/24118
reply
w4rh4wk5
3 hours ago
[-]
Back in the days, I've seen that with C files, which are compiled on the fly to a temporary file an run.

Something like //usr/bin/gcc -o main "$0"; ./main "$@"; exit

reply
ernst_klim
3 hours ago
[-]
Tcc even supports that with `#!/usr/local/bin/tcc -run`, although I don't understand people who use c or go for "scripting", when python, ruby, TCL or perl have much superior ergonomics.
reply
w4rh4wk5
3 hours ago
[-]
This was a relatively old project that used a C program as build system / meta generator. All you needed was a working C compiler (and your shell to execute the first line). From there, it built and ran a program that generated various tables and some source code, followed by compiling the actual program. The final program used a runtime reflection system, which was set up by the generated tables and code from the first stage.

The main reason was to do all this without any dependencies beyond a C compiler and some POSIX standard library.

reply
networked
1 hour ago
[-]
You can use https://github.com/erning/gorun as a Go script runner. It lets you embed `go.mod` and `go.sum` and have dependencies in Go scripts. This is more verbose than Python's inline script metadata and requires manual management of checksums. gorun caches built binaries, so scripts start quickly after the first time.

Example:

  /// 2>/dev/null ; gorun "$0" "$@" ; exit $?
  //
  // go.mod >>>
  // module foo
  // go 1.22
  // require github.com/fatih/color v1.16.0
  // require github.com/mattn/go-colorable v0.1.13
  // require github.com/mattn/go-isatty v0.0.20
  // require golang.org/x/sys v0.14.0
  // <<< go.mod
  //
  // go.sum >>>
  // github.com/fatih/color v1.16.0 h1:zmkK9Ngbjj+K0yRhTVONQh1p/HknKYSlNT+vZCzyokM=
  // github.com/fatih/color v1.16.0/go.mod h1:fL2Sau1YI5c0pdGEVCbKQbLXB6edEj1ZgiY4NijnWvE=
  // github.com/mattn/go-colorable v0.1.13 h1:fFA4WZxdEF4tXPZVKMLwD8oUnCTTo08duU7wxecdEvA=
  // github.com/mattn/go-colorable v0.1.13/go.mod h1:7S9/ev0klgBDR4GtXTXX8a3vIGJpMovkB8vQcUbaXHg=
  // github.com/mattn/go-isatty v0.0.16/go.mod h1:kYGgaQfpe5nmfYZH+SKPsOc2e4SrIfOl2e/yFXSvRLM=
  // github.com/mattn/go-isatty v0.0.20 h1:xfD0iDuEKnDkl03q4limB+vH+GxLEtL/jb4xVJSWWEY=
  // github.com/mattn/go-isatty v0.0.20/go.mod h1:W+V8PltTTMOvKvAeJH7IuucS94S2C6jfK/D7dTCTo3Y=
  // golang.org/x/sys v0.0.0-20220811171246-fbc7d0a398ab/go.mod h1:oPkhp1MJrh7nUepCBck5+mAzfO9JrbApNNgaTdGDITg=
  // golang.org/x/sys v0.6.0/go.mod h1:oPkhp1MJrh7nUepCBck5+mAzfO9JrbApNNgaTdGDITg=
  // golang.org/x/sys v0.14.0 h1:Vz7Qs629MkJkGyHxUlRHizWJRG2j8fbQKjELVSNhy7Q=
  // golang.org/x/sys v0.14.0/go.mod h1:/VUhepiaJMQUp4+oa/7Zr1D23ma6VTLIYjOOTFZPUcA=
  // <<< go.sum
  
  package main
  
  import "github.com/fatih/color"
  
  func main() {
      color.Green("Hello, world!")
  }
reply
karel-3d
10 minutes ago
[-]
I was looking for something like this a few times! great
reply
marifjeren
29 minutes ago
[-]
> don't want to have virtual environments and learn what the difference between pip, poetry and uv is

Oh come on, it's easy:

Does the project have a setup.py? if so, first run several other commands before you can run it. python -m venv .venv && source .venv/bin/activate && pip install -e .

else does it have a requirements.txt? if so python -m venv .venv && source .venv/bin/activate && pip install -r requirements.txt

else does it have a pyproject.toml? if so poetry install and then prefix all commands with poetry run ...

else does it have a pipfile? pipenv install and then prefix all commands with pipenv run ...

else does it have an environment.yml? if so conda env create -f environment.yml and then look inside the file and conda activate <environment_name>

else does it have a uv.ock? then uv sync (or uv pip install -e .) and then prefix commands with uv run.

reply
9dev
26 minutes ago
[-]
And you consider that easy?
reply
marifjeren
20 minutes ago
[-]
No, I'm being cheeky. It's not fun. It's a "15 standards" situation https://xkcd.com/927/
reply
jas39
1 hour ago
[-]
May I...

augroup fix autocmd! autocmd BufWritePost *.go \ if getline(1) =~# '^// usr/bin/' \ | call setline(1, substitute(getline(1), '^// ', '//', '')) \ | silent! write \ | endif augroup END

reply
xg15
1 hour ago
[-]
So the entire reason why this is not a "real" shebang and instead takes the roundtrip through the shell is because the Go runtime would trip over the # character?

I think this points to some shortcomings of the shebang mechanism itself: That it expects the shebang line to be present and adhering a specific structure - but then passes the entire file with the line to the interpreter where the interpreter has to process (and hopefully ignore) the line again.

I know that situations where one piece of text is parsed by multiple different systems are intellectually interesting and give lots of opportunities for cleverness - but I think the straightforward solution would be to avoid such situations.

So maybe the linux devs should consider adding a new form for the shebang where the first line is just stripped before passing the file contents to the interpreter.

reply
wyufro
43 minutes ago
[-]
It doesn't pass the file contents at all, it passes the file path.
reply
chrismorgan
2 hours ago
[-]
One suggestion: change `exit` to `exit $?` so an exit code is passed back to the shell.
reply
liveoneggs
1 hour ago
[-]
what's even cooler is when the language comes with first class support for this: https://www.erlang.org/docs/18/man/escript

Or the venerable https://babashka.org/

reply
emersion
2 hours ago
[-]
The following would probably be more portable:

    ///usr/bin/env go run "$0" "$@"; exit
Note, the exit code isn't passed through due to: https://github.com/golang/go/issues/13440
reply
incognito124
2 hours ago
[-]
To quote the blog in question:

> How true this is, is a topic I dare not enter.

reply
throw-12-16
4 hours ago
[-]
I've been meaning to port some dotfiles utils over to go, I think I'll give this a shot.
reply
rubymamis
32 minutes ago
[-]
What about Mojo?
reply
lgas
2 minutes ago
[-]
What about it?
reply
solumos
3 hours ago
[-]
> I started this post out mostly trolling, but the more I've thought about it's not a terrible idea.

I feel like this is the unofficial Go motto, and it almost always ends up being a terrible idea.

reply
api
1 hour ago
[-]
Tangent but... I kinda like the Python language. What I don't like about Python is the way environments are managed.

This is something I generally believe, but I think it's particularly important for things like languages and runtimes: the idea of installing things "on" the OS or the system needs to die.

Per-workspace or per-package environment the way Go, Rust, etc. does it is correct. Installing packages globally is wrong.

There should not be such a thing as "globally." Ideally the global OS should be immutable or nearly so, with the only exception being maybe hardware driver stuff.

(Yes I know there's stuff like conda, but that's yet another thing to fix a fundamentally broken paradigm.)

reply
avidphantasm
1 hour ago
[-]
Now try to call some C++ code from your Go script…
reply
flanked-evergl
1 hour ago
[-]
Using `uv` with python is significantly safer and better. At least you get null safety. Sure, you can't run at the speed of light, but at least you can have some decent non-halfarsed-retrofitted type checking in your script.
reply
tgv
1 hour ago
[-]
I think you're mistaking Go for some other language.
reply