Honey's Dieselgate: Detecting and tricking testers
145 points
6 hours ago
| 11 comments
| vptdigital.com
| HN
bryan_w
2 hours ago
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I used to work for an ad tech company (which I know already makes me the devil to some around here), and even I think that they crossed a line with this. A lot of industry terms are coded in corporate speak to make them sound better (think "revealed preferences" or "enabling personalization"), but I would genuinely like to know what the engineers thought when doing design reviews for a "selective stand down" feature. There doesn't seem to be a legit way to spin it.

Making a product to explicitly skirt agreements while working for a corporation is ... a choice

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Waterluvian
2 hours ago
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> what the engineers thought when doing design reviews for a "selective stand down" feature.

Possibly a version of, “I lack the freedom to operate with a moral code at work because I’m probably replaceable, the job market makes me anxious, my family’s well-being and healthcare are tied to having a job, and I don’t believe the government has my back.”

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Aurornis
48 minutes ago
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From my experience, it’s more likely that the engineers who got far enough in the company to be working on this code believed that their willingness to work on nefarious tasks that others might refuse or whistle-blow made them a trusted asset within the company.

In industries like this there’s also a mindset of “Who cares, it’s all going to corporations anyway, why not send some of that money to the corporation that writes my paychecks?”

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dbtc
1 hour ago
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Also likely, some version of "get dat money"
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cowpig
26 minutes ago
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Ah yes let's be sure not to judge anyone for anything they do
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the_snooze
5 hours ago
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Original MegaLag video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCGT_CKGgFE

You'd think that if you were an engineer building and maintaing a system like this, you'd have an "are we the baddies?" moment, but guess not.

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ZoneZealot
5 hours ago
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For context, Ben Edelman the author of the blog post was in the video at https://youtu.be/qCGT_CKGgFE?t=1980

Their personal site is also linked in the video description https://www.benedelman.org/honey-detecting-testers/

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fragmede
18 minutes ago
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Capitalism is great at washing its hands of evil. I don't know how much slavery went into making the smart phone that I'm posting this from, but I'm sure it's not zero. I'm ethically complicit in the whole scheme. The C in ACAB stands for Capitalists. Which unfortunately, is all of us.
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paranoidrobot
5 hours ago
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The original site is down for me, so going based on the app I was thinking it was about the actual edible Honey product, not Honey the discount coupon thing.
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gonesilent
4 hours ago
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It started as a clone of the camelcamelcamel Amazon price history site and got kicked out by Amazon for abusing the system. It pivoted to a coupon site and started sucking down user data with the plugin when PayPal paid $4Bil CASH. Honey cost me affiliate marketing commissions.
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t0mas88
4 hours ago
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Over 15 years ago I worked with a telco that had similar affiliate issues. We decided to stop paying any affiliate commission at all and evaluate sales after some time to decide to continue the experiment or not. There was a little decrease in traffic to the site but no measurable decrease in sales of new plans. There were several check moments and data validation after that, but sales numbers remained as they were.

The conclusion was that affiliate marketing claimed a lot of sales in their reporting, but the brand was strong enough (this company was #2 by market share in the country and #1 on most brand metrics) to get those customers without affiliate links.

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cwal37
5 hours ago
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arionmiles
4 hours ago
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there's something seriously wrong with this archived link. It's not staying still for one moment. It's constantly twitching and the text scrolls to weird positions. It's unreadable because of this.

Is it the archive at fault or is the original webpage this way?

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kencausey
4 hours ago
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It constantly reloads for me (Firefox.) Just hit X which replaces the reload button while the page is loading and it will stop.
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quesera
4 hours ago
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Disable JavaScript, reason #99e99.

Works for me here, and in 90% of the cases where someone complains of annoying page behaviour (cookie banners, revenue optimizations, subscription solicitations, "click here to ...", paywalls, ads, et alii ad nauseam).

Seriously, just disable JavaScript on unknown/untrusted/undeserving sites. It makes the web tolerable.

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arionmiles
3 hours ago
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ah well... this is a first for me where I need to disable JS. Thanks!
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throwaway81523
3 hours ago
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Apparently this thing got approved for the chrome store, which confirms that "store" approvals are near worthless for malware filtering.
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flkiwi
2 hours ago
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Didn't this Honey fraud thing break like a year ago (or longer)? This is the second story I've seen about it in the last couple of days and I guess I'm surprised it's even still around.
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AkshatJ27
2 hours ago
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The youtuber MegaLag released part 1 of his investigation roughly 1 year ago: https://youtu.be/vc4yL3YTwWk

Recently, he released 2 more parts with more new information that paints Honey in a pretty bad light: https://youtu.be/qCGT_CKGgFE https://youtu.be/wwB3FmbcC88

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flkiwi
1 hour ago
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Thank you. I was confused about why this was suddenly bubbling up again. And ... paints Honey in a pretty bad light? LOL, they already looked like a fraudster scam to begin with! (But, again, thank you.)
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esafak
5 hours ago
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I thought this was going to be about honey adulteration, which is a major problem.
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quesera
4 hours ago
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Same, and that topic would have been way more interesting (cf. EVOO).

Obviously Internet affiliate marketing schemes are built on mutual exploitation of asymmetric data collection. This cannot possibly surprise anyone.

With that said, this is a good article with excellent data collection and evidence presentation. It's great to have documentation of obviously corrupt practices, even if they are unsurprising.

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a_paddy
4 hours ago
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TLDR;

- The Honey browser extension inserted their own affiliate link at checkout, depriving others of affiliate revenue.

- Honey collected discount codes entered by users while shopping online, then shook down website owners to have the discount codes removed.

- Honey should have "stood down" if an affiliate link was detected, but their algorithm would decide to skip the stand down based on if the user could be the an affiliate representative testing for compliance.

Allegedly.

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phpnode
3 hours ago
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Wow, I am very surprised that cookie stuffing[0] is still a thing. This could have been written 20 years ago.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cookie_stuffing

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mindslight
5 hours ago
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No honor among thieves, eh?
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fasouto
4 minutes ago
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Not affiliate marketers are thieves
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delusional
4 hours ago
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Likening any of this to Volkswagen emissions compliance scandal does a huge disservice by treating "Affiliate Marketing" as far too important.

"Who gets a kickback on this toothbrush" is a much MUCH less important question than "do you pollute the air we are all breathing".

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choult
4 hours ago
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It's comparing Honey's behavior to a well-known and comprehended scandal. Simile is a tried and tested way (hah!) to explain otherwise potentially hard to understand or dry content.

It's not about the severity of the impact, its the fact that they were breaking the rules and explicitly coding to actively avoid being caught by testers.

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collingreen
2 hours ago
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Probably better to compare to ubers grayball although that may be less well known.
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Dylan16807
46 minutes ago
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Refusing service (and showing a fake status screen) is in the same ballpark, but dieselgate is a much closer match. They couldn't avoid being put under test, so they had separate behavior based on whether heuristics said it was in a testing environment.
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salawat
33 minutes ago
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These are the same types who have poisoned the well of information that was the Internet you can actually find things on for the sake of the ad driven model. Far as I'm concerned, the moral injuries are the same even if the physical details are different.
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