Really put off by this though:
> If you don’t pay for a product, you are the product. With MC03, you pay to retain your data rather than paying with it.
So you have to pay >$100/year to maintain access to your device? Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?
Part of the premium we pay for an iPhone or a Mac is to finance the development of iOS/MacOS. We get the updates for "free" but we actually already paid them when we paid the device.
Meanwhile, here it's clear: you pay the device, and then you pay for the OS.
The opposite being the product like with Microsoft/Google.
Or relying on the goodwill of other people (FOSS).
If I take the example of Kagi, I saw how much impact as a customer I have/had on the product.
Meanwhile Microsoft/Google/Apple don't care.
And on FOSS I could _just_ do the things myself, but I'm not an OS dev and I already spend some time on other FOSS projects (I'm writing this message on an Linux computer). Donations are great but they are not reliable/predictable and they don't give you more power to influence the product.
Regarding your question "Why do I need to pay to retain data that is on my own device?", according to their FAQ: "Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required." https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone
So the phone won't brick itself and you won't lose access to your data.
But the company itself give me a bad feeling, like Proton, trying to surf the hype and doing lots of virtue signaling.
That's their MP02, different product line, which is pretty much just talk and text plus Signal ("Pigeon" on the MP02): https://www.punkt.ch/products/mp02-4g-minimalist-phone
I recommend the MP02, with one caveat: don't buy it right now. Because there have historically been problems with Pigeon, you really ought to use Signal for Desktop at the same time as Pigeon, in case Pigeon starts having problems. But as of now you can't you can't connect the two (though Signal for Desktop keeps working fine if you already have them synced).
I've found the call quality and reliability on the MP02 to be great after a year of use.
[Edited to add: MP02 doesn't require a subscription.]
I still have some ancient (pre-smartphone) phones lying around, they work just fine and do the same thing. To be fair they don’t come with Signal but then again that doesn’t seem to work well. Only real argument would be the battery - but the last time I tested one of my old burner phones the battery still lasted for about 5 days (crazy right…)
the biggest leap forward in smart phones to me was personally in-hand GPS navigation. that was a game changer. I really _don't_ need to be even opening internet browsers for anything. T9 phone with a week of battery life, the ability to play some mp3's and GPS navigation and.. sigh I guess some way for me to issue MFA for okta/entraid/whatever since that's so ubiquitous with workplace security now... and I'd be set.
it's wild how advanced the likes of hardware companies were over a decade ago at making miniature hardware. the last generation ipod nano (7th I think?) was this tiny touch screen device and when I hold it in my hand today it feels ... actually magic. seriously it feels mind blowing, state of the art with how small and responsive it is. like that kind of miniaturization doesn't seem to exist anymore & it's something only the hardware giants at scale seemed to be able to do since they had supply chain connections and R&D warchests to blow on designing custom components. A lot of these dumb phones rely on generalist components I think and they aren't bankrolled with bajillions of dollars to get new R&D going and tooling online to really put an impressive device together, I just never see it in these "disconnect but stay just connected enough" dumb-phones that are trying to offer an exit from the noise of modern smart phones.
i'd absolutely cherish something that had the form of the nokia xpress music 5310 https://news.softpedia.com/images/extra/MOBILE/large/Nokia_5... with gps navigation, the ability to play music, and workplace MFA capability.
that's it, i've thought about it and i seriously don't need anything else. yeah whatsapp and spotify are super ubiquitous these days but they're literally not required to get in touch with me. and for spotify, i finally did do that whole "nerd mods an ipod 15 years later thing" and it taught me something that i needed to know about myself: ADHD + spotify = bad. my last decades playlists are a mess, i listen to music _less_ because it's just an onslaught of new stuff and access to everything. something about having a collection of music i actually took time to curate into playlists..i know what's in there i know what i can listen to. it's somewhere between meditative (which is good for me) and very intentional. acquiring new music is now also very intentional, getting it onto my device is intentional. its slower, less convenient, and somehow it makes me enjoy the music experience a lot more. im listening to more music now in a way that I haven't since I was sitting on a schoolbus next to my crush and sharing a headphone with her.
all in all I've seen a few of these "dumb phones, no distraction" device manufs now like punkt here start off with a cool design and eventually just cave and fold to some full screen touch design. to me that just nixes a lot of checkboxes for me: more screen = undoubtedly more distractions and ways to be connected, i miss buttons, i just... don't want a big phone. ever. i want to be intentional about my connectivity, and that means if i need the internet i need to just go hop on my computer. if im itching to know something and im standing in an elevator or standing on a subway, i actually don't want to be able to pull my phone out and have the immediacy of an answer. i want to stay bored in my head, work on the skill of "this is important i hope i come back to it lets index that thought and come back to it later", and just learn to live with being in my own head without the constant need to have an answer or scratch a dopamine itch immediately. there's something ive completely lost over the years, basically that ability to imagine spiderman swinging from the powerlines when i was a kid looking out the window of my parents car. whatever _that_ is, i think that came with a lot of core benefits for my brain activity that generally allowed me to have a more meaningful and happier life.
I'm building a portable pbx on a raspberry pi with some power banks I stick in a backpack and a dual sim 5g unlimited internet hotspot, and switch over to starlink 5g when that happens. I'll throw a media server in there (pirate everything), and use a small portable wireless streaming touchscreen. There are all sorts of useful UI and linux tools that can make it a far better experience than android or phones. If I need a camera, I'll buy a camera. I've got earbuds and bluetooth for peripherals.
2026 is the year I leave "phones" behind - not playing the subscription device game anymore. I left Windows last year. I'll get better service, real control, and no enshittification treadmill.
It's too bad it takes an inordinate amount of tech savvy to break out - Linux is well beyond good enough for grandma or the average user at this point. There's no reason beyond exploitation for profit for the kafkaesque intrusion into people's lives and data. If you've got the capability, break out.
This product is not breaking free. Same walls, different garden.
> They have a fork of an old version of GrapheneOS merged with LineageOS. They heavily marketed it as being based on GrapheneOS, but it's a very outdated version. Their devices don't have remotely comparable privacy, security, usability or app compatibility to official GrapheneOS.
Claim not found in article. If it was so heavily marketed, that would be in the announcement since they're mentioning other partners (Threema, Proton, the extra app store it ships...), and definitely on the product page (no mention of /graph.*/ there either)
Edit: found the specs button. It says the OS is based on AOSP (Android open source project)
> They repeatedly said they forked it from GrapheneOS in their media interviews and marketing. They didn't keep following along with our improvements and have shifted away from presenting it that way, partly because we requested it.
And that also matches what is claimed here, they used to market based on this, they don't anymore.
> You can cancel at any time. Without an active subscription, certain core services and privacy features will be limited. To keep your MC03 fully functional, secure, and up to date, an active subscription is required.
Out of curiosity (I'm definitely NOT going to buy a Phone-as-a-Service), what exactly happens when you cancel your subscription? Does the smartphone brick itself? Does it let you flash a sane operating system that doesn't treat you as a cash cow?
This phone requires a subscription in perpetuity, on top of the full purchase price.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/PETI-CM-580731...
I don't have a cell phone subscription either. I use prepaid which actually is cheaper.
Why do websites still do this? It's an immediate red flag that the underlying company have no respect for their customers.
If you have a site that "requires" chrome, you can easily add a user-agent switcher extension to fool whatever JS nonsense that claims to require chrome.
Most phones have them.
I used the CAT S22 for a while but it just isn't the same.
If they release a 5G MP03 I might buy one. I don't see the point of a Punkt smartphone.
I still have some ancient burner phones but it would be nice to have a recent one that is decent and not too expensive
- Google is an American company
- GrapheneOS Pixel support depends on Google's Pixel support (and has been affected by Google's decision to open-source less of their Pixel trees)
- This OS promises to maintain the usable app store + cloud experience
- OS maintenance isn't dependent on a bunch of volunteers/donations
- You can just buy this from an official reseller rather than making your own or having a sketchy website pre-install a custom ROM for you.
I think GrapheneOS has the better developers when it comes to privacy and security, but there are reasons to go for the reliability of a corporate entity you pay for support over hacking together an alternative.
The "iffy" status reflects temporary development hurdles rather than a shift in Google’s openness to custom operating systems.
(Google delayed releasing the necessary source code to AOSP).
I get that this could indicate that they are dropping support in the future. But it seems to be fine, albeit delayed, for the Pixel 10?
This really nerfs the whole dumbphone movement for Europeans, which should be a key market.
I went on holiday with someone a few weeks ago who is toughing it out with a no-Whatsapp dumbphone. He missed the train home because he got locked out of the holiday cottage and couldn't get in touch with anyone.
Meanwhile at the last work retreat they did everything through Whatsapp and it was so relaxing to be out of the loop.
I just checked with my roommate in the morning to get the planning for the day, and I wandered as I wished.
I missed a lot of impromptu events, sure. I also missed a few official events that changed place at the last minute. I went walking on the beach instead.
And for the events I was expected to be active in, organizers just made sure that I was where I needed to be when I needed to.
So I was able to completely relax and enjoy my stay.
In the end everybody was exhausted while I was refreshed like after actual personal holiday!
Enjoy your Whatsapp!
While WhatsApp is definitely the default messenger in many European countries, SMS and calling still exists and works on every phone. It'll cost you extra because of carrier shenanigans, but it's not like nobody has phone numbers anymore because of WhatsApp.
You may be left out of group chats if you don't share the same group chat app, but not being able to get into contact with anyone shouldn't happen.
My experience of not having a Whatsapp account and being in Europe is that I don't miss it.
I'm not in a few group chats with people that won't use Signal but that's it. I've never had an issue contacting any business or any indivdual.
Sure you will get a bit socially disconnected at times but that's about it.
I'd really be an outcast if I didn't use it.
I still have whatsapp but some of my contacts don't even care to check it anyway so they can take 2 weeks to see your messages. How useful is that?
In the end I only really keep it to communicate with my family abroad and my in law's extended family in another continent. My own progeniture as well as my partner have conversation/xmpp setup on their smartphone + a laptop. While I haven't done a whatsapp suicide yet, I told them it was important to have other means of communication in case their phone died, a cloud vendor had issue or their account was suddently banned.
I used to be in a group of parents when my kids were in primary school but it was mostly useless and full of intense mums arguing against each other. I barely looked at it. My dance class supposedly has a whatsapp group but I didn't join it and I heard only a few annoying persons post random memes in it. I went once there only to see nobody there and heard it was cancelled afterwards , no big deal. I'd rather do the trip once for nothing than be spammed all year long with stupid memes.
On a holiday of 10 people, everybody exchanging numbers means 10x9/2 = 45 actions, with many of those edges between strangers (higher cost edge)
Each person adding their friend to the Whatsapp group is 9 actions, with all edges between friends (low-cost edge)
So in practice, only the second one happens. He had one other person's number, but that particular person didn't check their phone.
Most whatsapp groups end up being muted by almost anyone because they are an annoyance so they are hardly the place where you would ask for help anyway because virtually nobody would get notified.
Before saying "E2E" please exercise your critical thinking. The OS is controlled by Google, so Google has access to everything in the phone's memory. The app is controlled by Facebook, so Facebook has access to everythig in the app's memory.
I do however have one mitigation: I don't run the whatsapp app on my primary phone. I use a matrix bridge. The app is still installed on another phone which is left at home. Because every month or so you have to enter the pin code (apparently meta thinks us users are retards that will forget it if we don't keep entering it).
On my phone I use the ElementX app then. I did get banned from whatsapp one time which was presumably to do with the bridge (I don't see what else it would be).
pretty bad signal
Non-starter.
Why? What is so important that they need me to notify about?
or how being locked in to a black box vpn instills a sense of having gained reliable true privacy?
Do they actually host anything at all? All I could find was their F-Droid repository with six (6) applications: https://store.aphy.app/fdroid/repo/. The rest must come from elsewhere (F-Droid's main archive?), but they don't indicate if they actually use the rent you pay to fund the third parties they depend on.
For comparison, the F-Droid archive consists of 4061 applications reviewed, built, and hosted by the F-Droid team for free.
Can someone please release a nice Sidekick like device with physical keyboard that supports Signal.
Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46467057
I have my iphone 13 mini for 4 years, having a Punkt MC03 for the same amount of time would cost me €1058. Thanks, but no thanks.
based on how they welcome new customers to their site, I can only assume this is the general vibe of the company also. (aggressively pushing crap)
Now a company offers it and every 2nd comment has the vibe of 'Why would someone pay a subscription for their "own" phone'. I guess that means the former vibe is not something most people actually want?
Besides that, the software that they expect you to pay rent for is a fork of LineageOS/AOSP, but it doesn't seem to mention anywhere on the site whether they donate any of the rent to their upstreams.
Charge a subscription or sell the phone outright but don't do both.
I feel the same way about cars where you pay for the engine or the heated seats but can't use them without paying rent.
I understand that maintenance still isn't free in that case, but it seems like they went out of their way to make more maintenance work for themselves, and then they asked their customers to pay for it. As a potential customer, I would've rather it just come with standard GOS rather than paying yearly for a fork that probably isn't as secure.
stopped reading there
