Briar keeps Iran connected via Bluetooth and Wi-Fi when the internet goes dark
198 points
9 hours ago
| 16 comments
| briarproject.org
| HN
btbuildem
10 minutes ago
[-]
Take heed, Americaneez -- and prepare, because this may be in your future sooner than prediction markets would have you believe [1].

LoRa mesh networking seems like the runner-up, but vague reports indicate (Meshtastic) doesn't handle crowds well.

I think Bitchat can use Meshtastic, so a LoRa radio paired with a phone could be a base for not just texting individuals, but community messaging.

1: https://polymarket.com/event/us-civil-war-before-2027

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notepad0x90
1 hour ago
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Does anyone remember yik-yak? It wasn't anonymous and resilient like briar, but it was great in its time to discover people near-by and start chatting.

Does anyone if briar relays traffic? like if at least one person in a wifi network has briar and they also connect by bluetooth to another person within an adjacent wifi network, does it relay messages from one end of the city to the other over dozens of devices?

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cookiengineer
31 minutes ago
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No they sadly don't have that, and that's the major issue of connectivity. All chat recipients have to be online/reachable to receive your messages, which is okay, but useless in mobile environments where you can't afford that constant traffic.

The broadcast type channels though are what the article talks about, they are great for off the grid and mesh environments.

Relaying and scattering traffic across neighboring peers (and handshakes via multicast DNS, for example) would fix a lot of the issues you'll get with Briar, but I guess that would imply a refactor of the codebase.

For these types of NAT breaking issues, a lot of protocols rely on TURN/TURTLE routing.

For my experimental software router I'm relying on broken firewall deep packet inspection, so I'm using exfil / smuggling protocols. Currently still works, according to my local setup of the great firewall (it's source leak was legit btw).

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goda90
15 minutes ago
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Jodel is a successor to yik-yak.
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zelphirkalt
2 hours ago
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I have Briar, but never had anyone to use it with. As an emergency text messaging tool, I guess it can be used, but not for any media transfer. The picture quality is abysmal. I also tried using it to sync some notes across devices, looking for a good use case of it all, but there was also some issue there. I believe once you created a "forum" you can no longer delete them. The desktop app is very slow. Sometimes had to wait for 10-20s for it to do something. I guess it is really just an emergency/offline text message tool.
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ozfive
1 hour ago
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A good use of briar is having it on your phone already so that during a natural disaster you can connect with others that already have it at community relief spots. Keep it just in case and it will come in clutch when you need it most!
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vegabook
2 hours ago
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>> "The adversary has a limited ability to persuade users to trust the adversary’s agents - thus the number of social connections between the adversary’s agents and the rest of the network is limited." [1]

This assumption seems risky.

[1] https://briarproject.org/how-it-works/

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dash2
2 hours ago
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Is this actually true? Is anyone in Iran using Briar?
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shevy-java
1 hour ago
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Just the layout seems so awful. As if noboy ever optimised this for real people.
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jedahan
41 minutes ago
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When I tested all the p2p messengers I could get my hands on for Android and iOS about two years back, the only one that worked at all without having a router around was Briar. Glad to see it helping people.
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SoulMan
3 hours ago
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What about Jack Dorsey's Bitchat . Could be useful in india (especially Kashmir) where govt shut down internet during protest
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anukin
24 minutes ago
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Could be useful in Bangladesh and Baluchistan too.
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stanislavb
2 hours ago
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Bitchat seems like a good solution. It will be even more effective once Bluetooth 6 becomes more widespread in a year or two.
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2Gkashmiri
2 hours ago
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Dude.

Back in 2014 when briar or something similar came up, we found the app.needed to signed in "online" first then it could be used offline.

There were apps used in 2019 but it wasnt enough.

The government "banned" 14 appps including element "because use by terrorists" meant anyone using element after the ban got a loud knock on the door by the stazi with 100-300 personnel, fully ready to engage in battle.

Have seen horror stories.

They used isp data to locate homes where element was used and then staked them out and made a big show of attacking at night.

Then the usual. Phones are confiscated and literal spyware installed.

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dasyud
1 hour ago
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Wait really? Was this only in Kashmir? I've had Element on my laptop for years.
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cboyardee
3 hours ago
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I'm not sure so many Iranians have $1000 iphones to use hipster bitchat; cheaper android clients are more the norm.
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syntaxing
49 minutes ago
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While bitchat was originally iOS only during release, they released the Android version shortly after https://bitchat.free/ (scroll down)
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throw5756733565
1 hour ago
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"Raliv, Tsaliv ya Galiv" didn't need the internet or fancy mesh networking - rabble-rousing Friday mosque-sessions were sufficient for ethnociding the native population over the course of many centuries.
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wolvoleo
1 hour ago
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I think meshtastic would be a lot more performant in mesh scenarios due to the added range of LoRa. But of course it's special hardware and thus suspicious during an insurrection. And probably just not available.

I doubt this will actually work though except in the densest city.

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gh02t
36 minutes ago
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Meshtastic also struggles with high density and high traffic networks. Some modifications can be made to work better, but with the default settings it really grinds to a halt, and modifying the settings to be better suited requires some expertise and foresight. It works amazingly in off grid, relatively sparse networks, but it's got some major limitations.
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syntaxing
1 hour ago
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Whoa, I was just mentioning in another post how I have my family member install bitchat just in case for emergencies. This is a very interesting alternative. With a travel router, I can significantly expand the chat radius compared to bitchat's purely BLE approach.

Edit: Boo, no iOS app

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DANmode
1 hour ago
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Boo, native apps.
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shevy-java
1 hour ago
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Just the default web-layout shown here is ... awful. How can people use that? That design is like 1990 ... but worse.
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electronsoup
6 hours ago
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I'm curious about the iOS situation
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celsoazevedo
5 hours ago
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I doubt iOS has a large market share in Iran.

Also, for something like this you don't want a platform that requires you to essentially use the App Store and nothing else.

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dc396
3 hours ago
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iOS is around 10%, Android around 90%. (https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/iran/%20)
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thomascountz
6 hours ago
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   Briar is available on Google Play for devices running Android.
What situation do you mean?
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arcanemachiner
4 hours ago
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The one you just summarized perfectly.
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DANmode
3 hours ago
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10% of devices or less.
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bflesch
4 hours ago
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Unfortunately, due to safety reasons Apple cannot allow you to leave the walled garden, it is only in your own best interest. All communication services on our iOS devices require at least one US-based NSA-integrated middleman. /s
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bb88
2 hours ago
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Seriously though, given all the NSA has done: Could the NSA launch a "beach head" inside Apple?
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tamimio
1 hour ago
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Don’t forget the horror stories of people relying on iCloud to have all their personal life there only to get locked out for silly reasons.
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KnuthIsGod
54 minutes ago
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Minneapolis needs this now.
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31337Logic
6 hours ago
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Hooray! As a Rabin fan, I love Briar and so tremendously excited to be reading this. Thank you, all who are involved with this magnificent project!!
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FridayoLeary
3 hours ago
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I'm still unclear how the stated goal of the title is achieved. My first assumption reading the title that it works something like airtags, but that is obviously nonsense. unless you are standing right next to the guy you want to message, how exactly does it work?
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jayd16
3 hours ago
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https://briarproject.org/how-it-works/

Looks like clients re-host posts to their friends in a p2p fashion.

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FridayoLeary
3 hours ago
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Thanks. Basically it depends on c travelling to another town. Also taking the risk of being caught with the content on it's phone. It looks like a great app and every little helps but hardly a game changer, unless i'm underestimating how bad it is in Iran?

If it works via tor it's probably also slow, but that's a small price to pay for not relying on a central server for people with legitimate concerns or problems with connecting.

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subscribed
5 hours ago
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Perhaps Americans should start preparing with Meshtastic / Meshcore, just in case....... ..,..the Emperor seems hellbent on bringing martial law into effect.
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codezero
5 hours ago
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The military can very easily find and eliminate repeaters very quickly and almost certainly would.
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torlok
4 hours ago
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Then get more? Sounds like a fantastic way to waste military resources. I have no clue why this mythical US military might and efficiency idea persists after so many failed interventions.
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subscribed
3 hours ago
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Here's a funny example of making it harder to find: https://youtu.be/W_F4rEaRduk?t=178
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bb88
3 hours ago
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Triangulation is damn easy. If the US can put on bomb on a suspect satellite phone user back in the 2000's (and they did!), they can certainly send a bomb on that today.

Sat phones during the second gulf war (maybe even the first) became a liability. The transmission lit them up like a god damn beacon saying, "Bomb goes here!".

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fragmede
2 hours ago
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Triangulation, the math isn't the hard part. Where exactly on the continental United States are you proposing dropping ordinance? MOVE in 1985 was controversial even back then.
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esseph
1 hour ago
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Good luck if your mesh network is on 2.4/5/6ghz.

It'll blend in with background radiation from home routers.

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1shooner
2 hours ago
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>the more people who use it, the more robust and far-reaching and reliable it gets.

I was under the opposite impression, that meshtastic's whole problem is that it doesn't scale well at all.

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culi
1 hour ago
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I'm genuinely interested in learning more about the shortcomings of meshtastic if you have a link to share. Groups like the Anarchist Black Cross seem really supportive of the tech for disaster situations. Even Benn Jordan claimed it played an important role during the floods in NC
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1shooner
23 minutes ago
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My understanding is that it relates to the flood routing in meshtastic. I haven't heard a real-world failure example, but another comment on this post mentioned defcon being a case (I don't know anything about that).

I did find this assessment:

https://www.disk91.com/2024/technology/lora/critical-analysi...

And here is Meshtastics explanation of the rationale behind 'managed flood routing':

https://meshtastic.org/blog/why-meshtastic-uses-managed-floo...

I think I first heard about the differences from Andy Kirby, one of the MeshCore creators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNWf0Mh2fJw

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kevin_thibedeau
3 hours ago
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The intervention part is an administrative problem the military isn't designed for. For the core mission of collecting intelligence, eliminating targets, and occupying land, the US has an unrivaled track record over the last 85 years.
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ungreased0675
3 hours ago
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You must have missed the S-tier op that went down January 3rd.
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torlok
2 hours ago
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That was a single mission planned over months. We're talking about a continuous subjudagtion.
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bb88
3 hours ago
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No, just blast the hell out of the ISM bands on which they operate. This seem certainly feasible for a military apparatus the size of the US.
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torlok
2 hours ago
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I'm sure everybody's going to stay on ISM bands to remain compliant with government regulations while being attacked by the government.
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ozfive
1 hour ago
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This deserves a /s
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esseph
1 hour ago
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The economic impact of that would be massive re: business operational impact.

Directional radios would still win out on p2p links.

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kingkawn
4 hours ago
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The interventions fail only after enormous slaughter, which people are understandably keen to not be subject to
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anigbrowl
3 hours ago
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As if compliance had such a great success rate.
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culi
1 hour ago
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They're incredibly easy to build and even disguise as lawn ornaments as Benn Jordan showed in a recent video. When it costs us less money and time to build them than it costs the gov't to find/destroy them it's a worthy investment
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subscribed
3 hours ago
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I don't think it's going to be military killing a Americans. As of now it more looks like federal government.

Nevertheless, sure, in the rural areas, but less so in the cities, reflections and bending of the waves make it much harder, and a single repeater with solar panel and battery could plausibly be made under $50.

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bb88
3 hours ago
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A military won't be killing all Americans, just the ones it can label as "terrorists" to the people who elected them.
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ozfive
1 hour ago
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They are being made. I have a four node network already in my suburb. There is a software project that is written in Python that essentially turns lorawan nodes into BBSs similar to briar.
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ozfive
1 hour ago
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Maybe ham repeaters but when we are talking lorawan they will have a hell of a time taking the networks down that are already established. Just in my suburb we have more than 6000 nodes because of the helium network.
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esseph
1 hour ago
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It would be futile. It's a big country full of 340,000,000 people.

Great way to waste resources though.

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trhway
4 hours ago
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Repeater coupled with [autonomous] drone to change [hard-to-get-to rooftop, treetop and the likes] location every 10 minutes like in a combat zone.
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hrimfaxi
4 hours ago
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Repeaters built into collars and put on feral cats.
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monkaiju
4 hours ago
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Is this a real thing???
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trhway
3 hours ago
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In Ukraine - pretty close.
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vfclists
4 hours ago
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Isn't stopping abuses of the power of the military the reason for the 2nd Amendment?

Why don't the people in Minnesota go open carry and let ICE agents think twice before drawing their weapons on people?

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soulofmischief
4 hours ago
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Renee Good was killed after dropping off her six-year-old child at school. I agree with you, but people like her have children and are not trying to die in the street just for looking at somebody the wrong way. And it's one thing to open carry, it's another thing to become a trained and confident marksmen.

And as someone who has had half a dozen police officers simultaneously pointing guns at my head, mistaking me for someone else in public, once you're in that situation, escalation is only going to lead to death. Out here, police shoot you if your hand goes anywhere near your waist.

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bb88
3 hours ago
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>Isn't stopping abuses of the power of the military the reason for the 2nd Amendment?

It was for establishing well ordered militias. They could be used to help defend the country in a time of war.

> Why don't the people in Minnesota go open carry and let ICE agents think twice before drawing their weapons on people?

Most of the demonstrators believe that "the pen is mightier than the sword", and non-violence is the way to achieve political means. (Ghandi, MLK jr.)

When the peace-niks start amassing guns, that's when you have a tipping point in this country.

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hrimfaxi
2 hours ago
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What's the definition of a well-ordered militia? A bunch of farmers that go shooting together?
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bb88
2 hours ago
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A bunch of farmers that go shooting drunk. /s

Seriously though, everyone back in the 1700s realized that all Americans were American. I'm not sure that's true any more.

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hrimfaxi
1 hour ago
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> Seriously though, everyone back in the 1700s realized that all Americans were American. I'm not sure that's true any more.

What was an American in the 1700s? A person born in America?

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idiotsecant
3 hours ago
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Meshtastic is both extremely range limited and trivial to DDOS. It's a fun toy protocol but it's not resistant to nation state disruption at all.
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lukeinator42
3 hours ago
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It's only line-of-sight, but isn't the range 10s-100s of kilometres in open areas? Some repeaters on hills/mountains etc. could connect large areas potentially.
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fragmede
2 hours ago
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It's trivially jammable, as evidenced by the network not working at popular events such as Defcon with default firmware settings.
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monkaiju
4 hours ago
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I looked a bit into meshtastic and was told that if a node was physically compromised then messages could be intercepted. That cant be right, right?
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subscribed
3 hours ago
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From what I understand no, the relay node has no access to the messages.

If you compromise sending or receiving node then sure, of course.

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bb88
3 hours ago
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Why bother? Just jam the fucking hell out of it. Most critical infrastructure is not on the ISM bands.
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esseph
1 hour ago
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A lot of things are.

You could theoretically even shut down airplane printers in the cockpit if the jamming was strong enough.

You'd be surprised the things that are tied to ism wifi and bluetooth

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idiotsecant
3 hours ago
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There was a well known crypto weakness, CVE-2025-52464, that allowed man in the middle decryption of meshtastic traffic. It was fixed by a firmware patch that improved crypto discipline.
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Aachen
1 hour ago
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Bad randomness in generating keys, for anyone else wondering
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ukblewis
7 hours ago
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Good
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