200 MB RAM FreeBSD Desktop
70 points
3 days ago
| 12 comments
| vermaden.wordpress.com
| HN
badc0ffee
1 hour ago
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I remember booting up Debian into an X11 session on a laptop with only 8 MB of RAM.

(This would have been circa 2000, and I think I had to try a few different distros before finding one that worked. Also I don't think I did anything with it beyond Xterm and Xeyes.)

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blackhaz
27 minutes ago
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I am amazed to discover that Xfce of that era was so CDEsque: https://www.linux.co.cr/desktops/review/2000/xfce-3.3/help.h...
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guenthert
28 minutes ago
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That would have been then already some kind of anachronism. 8MiB RAM was workable (but only barely so with X11) in the early nineties. Late nineties 64MiB or more were common.
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stavros
26 minutes ago
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My first PC had 16 MB of RAM, which later obviously became too slow to be usable. I remember I had to wait around a minute for Fallout to load a level, which you had to do fairly frequently.
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daitangio
24 minutes ago
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Me too, but I was able to do it around 1995-1996 :) Also remember Windows95 can boot with 4MB of RAM, and was decent with 12MB.
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adrian_b
17 minutes ago
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Windows95 was decent even with 8 MB, on a 66 MHz or 100 MHz 486 CPU.

With either 4 MB or only a 386 CPU, it was definitely crippled, making an upgrade not worthwhile.

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hnlmorg
1 hour ago
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I doesn’t feel like that long ago when I built a swarm of Arch Linux based thin clients which PXE booted from a SLES DHCP & NFS host.

That was probably around 2010 or 2015.

Those images had to run on a thin client with 512 MB RAM.

I think I chose XFCE as the DE.

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forinti
1 hour ago
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In college we had a network of Sun workstations and some of the machines had only 8MB of RAM, IIRC. This was in the 90s.

Then again, the X desktop was really minimal and I would use them mostly to code in C using a terminal.

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hsbauauvhabzb
44 minutes ago
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I don’t know how resolution maps to ram in x11 but I assume at least one byte per pixel. Based on that assumption, there’s no chance you’d even be able to power a 4k monitor with 8mb of ram, let alone the rest of the system.
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argsnd
33 minutes ago
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Presumably every pixel is 32 bits rather than just 8. So the count starts at 33.2MB just for the display.
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stavros
28 minutes ago
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It is now, but back then it was 1 byte, with typical resolutions being 800x600. There were high-color modes but for a period it was rare to have good enough hardware for it.
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cout
22 seconds ago
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I have run x11 in 16-color and 256-color mode, but it was not fun. The palette would get swapped when changing windows, which was quite disorienting. Hardware that could do 16-bit color was common by the late 90s.
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hsbauauvhabzb
17 minutes ago
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Damn pixel bit-depth bloat!
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giamma
1 hour ago
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It used to be like that, computer had limited resources and desktop environments were light. Then at some point RAM became less and less of an issue, and everything started to get bigger and less efficient.

Coyuld anyone summarize why a desktop Windows/MacOs now needs so much more RAM than in the past? is it the UI animations, color themes, shades etc etc or is it the underlying operating system that has more and more features, services etc etc ?

I believe it's the desktop environment that is greedy, because one can easily run a linux server on a raspberry pi with very limited RAM, but is it really the case?

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marhee
9 minutes ago
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> Coyuld anyone summarize why a desktop Windows/MacOs now needs so much more RAM than in the past

Just a single retina screen buffer, assuming something like 2500 by 2500 pixels, 4 byte per pixel is already 25MB for a single buffer. Then you want double buffering, but also a per-window buffer since you don't want to force rewrites 60x per second and we want to drag windows around while showing contents not a wireframe. As you can see just that adds up quickly. And that's just the draw buffers. Not mentioning all the different fonts that are simultaneously used, images that are shown, etc.

(Of course, screen bufferes are typically stored in VRAM once drawn. But you need to drawn first, which is at least in part on the CPU)

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roywashere
44 minutes ago
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I am wondering if, with memory and storage prices skyrocketing, there will be more effort on making computing use less resources?
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flohofwoe
25 minutes ago
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> is it the UI animations, color themes, shades etc etc or is it the underlying operating system that has more and more features, services etc etc ?

...all of those and more? New software is only optimized until it is not outright annoying to use on current hardware, it's always been like that and that's why there are old jokes like:

    "What Andy giveth, Bill taketh away."

    "Software is like a gas, it expands to consume all available hardware resources."

    "Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster"
...etc..etc... variations of those "laws" are as old as computing.

Sometimes there are short periods where the hardware pulls a little bit ahead for a few short years of bliss (for instance the ARM Macs), but the software quickly catches up and soon everything feels as slow as always (or worse).

That also means that the easiest way to a slick computing experience is to run old software on new hardware ;)

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Imustaskforhelp
2 hours ago
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If someone wants really low ram consumption for a desktop. They should try out tinycorelinux which I have ran the whole system in <25/20 MB of ram from its most minimal option.

It's truly the most minimalist gui option just out there. It uses flwm & there own iirc very minimalist xorg server but most apps usually work

The one issue I have is that I can't copy paste text or do some simple stuff like moving my mouse on some text but aside from that, Tinycorelinux's pretty good

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eth0up
1 hour ago
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Can your "one issue" be tweaked by adding more RAM and allocating it thusly?

I'm using Void with 24gb ddr5 and frequently get system freezes during high productivity. Browser tabs in the background are often contributors, but working with openshot or odb crashes often.

I have several old nuc's and I might try tinycore on one. What do you or most others use it for, primarily?

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Imustaskforhelp
1 hour ago
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I am not sure how my one issue can be fixed. It seems to be fundamentally an issue of their minimalist xorg server itself but I am pretty sure that there must be a way

> I'm using Void with 24gb ddr5 and frequently get system freezes during high productivity. Browser tabs in the background are often contributors, but working with openshot or odb crashes often.

Kdenlive's' pretty good for what its worth and I use Archlinux/cachy on an 8 gig system and browser tabs aren't that often atleast in here

> I have several old nuc's and I might try tinycore on one. What do you or most others use it for, primarily?

I used it to revive my 15 year old laptop and even ran complete modern firefox on it (its specs are 1 gigs 32 bit ram simple mini laptop) and ran wifi and ran firefox and ran pomodorokitty on it and I can sort of treat it as a second monitor

It's battery is removable so I am gonna change its battery as currently the setup takes time to install and I have to install it everytime I open/it shuts down which can happen quite a lot if I don't have it plugged in so currently its shutdown for over a month but I really liked the tinkering I did with when I ran pomodorokitty on it

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fredsted
56 minutes ago
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Cool post. So much could be done on a couple hundred megabytes of ram back in the day, with spinning rust as storage to boot!
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OsrsNeedsf2P
1 hour ago
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While this is cool, it all goes out the window the minute you run any app
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janmalec
1 hour ago
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Exactly. The issue today is that even if you optimize your OS and DE to be very memory efficient, it matters very little as soon as you open a modern web browser. And without a modern web browser a big part of the online experience is broken.
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bandrami
1 hour ago
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Beautifully, blissfully broken
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mono442
1 hour ago
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At the end of the post there is a comparison of ram usage of different desktop environments and the used ram is reported differently by every tool. So what exactly is being here measured as the used ram?
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inatreecrown2
59 minutes ago
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Running Alpine Linux with a minimal window manager gives me similar RAM usage, about 150MB
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joecool1029
1 hour ago
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Woulda been a nice article if it covered the real reason xlibre’s founder got fired from RH, Enrico’s had a long history of pissing people off and posting cringe on main: https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/11/linus_torvalds_vaccin...
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Mashimo
1 hour ago
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Odd little rant suddenly appears in the middle of it :D

Here is how I set up minimal Desktop, WATCH 4 VIDEOS ABOUT HOW DEI IS KILLING OPEN SOURCE PROJECTS, and here is my loader.conf ...

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bboozzoo
1 hour ago
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Why should I care though?
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Mashimo
1 hour ago
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Could say the same thing about why it's in the blog post.

You don't have to care at all. It's just an odd blog post that just from technical intro to rant about DEI and censorship and back to technical details. And joecool1029 just provides more context to what was said in the blog post.

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anthk
57 minutes ago
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Indeed. Xenocara would be a better bet. But the more these people have to collaborate with different people, the more empathy they will need.

https://git.sr.ht/~rabbits/fashware

About Nemo (Fran J. Ballesteros from plan9/9front) he has half as encuse as he grew up (for sure) under the Francoist regime probably from the loaded family side, and, thus, he had to swallow tons of literal extreme right wing ideology even at school (Franco's regime). But the point on being a conspiranoid about the Covid... I would expect more sanity from the mindset from a guy perfectly abled in algoritmics, math and by proxy, science. Echo chambers create these kinds of idiots even on really smart people (the far right in Spain used cult like mechanics too), and I'm sure Fran changed a bit over time for the better.

On the Cosmopolitan/APE person, I remind you that if you want to get back to Reissanance times, I'm a Spaniard, and thus, your whole ideology pales against the Iberian Humanism from the School of Salamanca, where at the time we were the Enlightened ones and you were just a bunch of WASP uneducated hicks living in filthy villages in the middle of Europe.

Back to 9intro, even if you dislike ~nemo, 9intro it's still worth to learn programming on 9front, it's a great book to share and learn from. If would be a waste to ditch it just because some old fart doesn't get into the times.

EDIT: ok, now I see ~nemo it's not that old, so a plausible indoctrination from the Francoism wouldn't apply there; but I'm pretty sure being a conspiranoid on Covid doesn't look like the normal socialization out there.

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heraldgeezer
1 hour ago
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Cant wait to boot up my Windows 11 total bloat machine at home and work

I kinda wanna try linux again...

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undeveloper
56 minutes ago
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it gets better every day
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ryan-c
1 hour ago
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opens blog post

sees lunduke

closes blog post

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undeveloper
1 hour ago
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seriously, what's with people's love of this guy? besides politics, I have not seen anything that suggests engineering prowess from this guy, only "rust bad".
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wongogue
41 minutes ago
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People like his technical opinion because they like his politics. That’s the whole grift-influencer economy. If someone is good at one thing (and validates some of my views), then obviously he’s right about everything.
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heraldgeezer
57 minutes ago
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He is an influencer if you will.

Skilled enough but the main use is as a news resource like this. The guy ion the blog would not have found out about this unless Lunduke posted about it.

Do you understand? :)

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heraldgeezer
1 hour ago
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For us not in the know, why is this bad?

Is he ""bigoted"" ? :(

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ryan-c
42 seconds ago
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He's harassed people, including one of my friends.
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Mashimo
41 minutes ago
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I have no idea who he is, never heard of him. You shall not judge a book by its cover but .. he is making it hard. His video titles are:

* Devuan: The Non-Woke Debian Linux Fork (Without Systemd)

* NeoFetch But in Rust and More Gay

* Chimera Linux is "Here to Further Woke Agenda by Turning Free Software Gay"

* Are Jews the Cause of DEI in Big Tech?

Yeah .. I did not watch a single video of his. But just from a short few seconds It's not anything I want to invest time in to see if he has a point or not. Life is too short.

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bigpeopleareold
20 minutes ago
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Whatever I might agree or disagree with, this is annoying to look at, but his stuff keeps coming up in my YouTube feed. Even it looks slightly interesting, I know it will be some rant involved about a thing not related to technology, but some developer's personal opinions on non-tech ideas. I get it - people are horrible! Sheesh!

FWIW, probably not much, he said he had a Jewish background ... in, like, the one video I watched and eventually gave up on.

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hsbauauvhabzb
18 minutes ago
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> NeoFetch But in Rust and More Gay

apt-install --fuck-yes gay-rust-neofetch

I’ll look to migrate to chimera shortly, but only if it includes gay neofetch.

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stevefan1999
10 minutes ago
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* Are Jews the Cause of DEI in Big Tech?

...errrrrrrrrrrrrr, plot twist, he is a jew himself, or at least he claimed he is.

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werdl
1 hour ago
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oh wow! this looks cool, let me click.

annnd its another XLibre shill proselytising.

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heraldgeezer
59 minutes ago
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For us not in the know, why is this bad?
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znpy
8 minutes ago
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nice, now open a web browser and any modern website /s
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