SpaceX lowering orbits of 4,400 Starlink satellites for safety's sake
40 points
3 hours ago
| 5 comments
| space.com
| HN
yanis_t
8 minutes ago
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Can anyone explain how does one technically lower a satellite?
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frumiousirc
4 minutes ago
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Eject mass in the forward direction of its current tangent of motion. Slow down to go down.
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pandemic_region
1 minute ago
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So, for this they have a bit of expendable extra mass on board? What material is it, would it not cause even more debris then?
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choeger
1 hour ago
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I think it's important to note that not all collisions are equally dangerous. Consider a sat on a polar orbit colliding with one on a equatorial orbit. Or two satellites on different directions. That is going to be spectacular. Otoh, these kind of collisions are unlikely and should be manageable by just assigning certain shells (say 5km) for every possible direction and orientation.

If two Starlink satellites collide that go roughly in the same direction, it's not exactly a huge problem.

I think the biggest issue is to coordinate this and potentially disallow some excentric orbits.

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aucisson_masque
2 hours ago
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There are so many satellites in orbit that there is a pretty good chance that if even one was to be hit by something and explode in many pieces, it would crash another one and then another one until there is nothing left.

The nasa is pretty scared of it, so is SpaceX.

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wongarsu
2 hours ago
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There are tentative signs that this is happening right now. As in: each collision causes debris that on average causes more than one additional collision, causing collision rates to go up exponentially.

But so far it's not anything like in Hollywood movies, it's just a graph slowly going up. There are about 12000 satellites orbiting earth. That looks like a lot on a map, but 12000 objects spread over an area larger than the surface of the earth isn't all that much

Like all exponential processes it will become a major issue if we don't address it, but this is one that starts pretty slow and is well monitored

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spiritplumber
1 hour ago
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Yep. That's the things about exponential curves, it's a graph slowly going up until it's no longer "slowly".

https://www.thefrogdoctrine.com/p/the-29th-day

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childintime
1 hour ago
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> 12000 objects spread over an area larger than the surface of the earth isn't all that much

People keep saying this, but the only way to assure there is no collision is to have non-intersecting orbits, but that is not going to work: not enough space.

It's a tell that SpaceX is now lowering the orbits, even though their satellites mostly move in flocks that maintain a formation relative to each other: because the other ways are exhausted.

Of course if they do cause a (low orbit) Kessler syndrom, then they don't have a business any more, and SpaceX will have achieved the opposite of its stated goals.

The major reason to lower these orbits is likely the risk of a terrorist state turning these constellations into a weapon, by willingly causing the Kessler syndrome. SpaceX isn't going to tell you that, just as it doesn't tell you it's the USA's most important military asset.

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notahacker
48 minutes ago
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> The major reason to lower these orbits is likely the risk of a terrorist state turning these constellations into a weapon, by willingly causing the Kessler syndrome.

Hard to see how the repositioning appreciably alters this risk, since there are still thousands of satellites in the original plane to get hit by shrapnel from intentionally caused collisions, and the satellites in the lower orbit aren't invulnerable to it either

Suspect there's a rather more practical calculation that the extra thruster firings needed to main position in a lower orbit with more atmospheric drag are offset by the smaller number of conjunction avoidance manoeuvres they need to undertake in less congested space (the cost of lowering the orbit is simply deducted from their original delta-v budget for end of life deorbiting). In simple terms they get lower accidental collision risk without operations in the lower orbit shortening satellite lifetime.

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ben_w
17 minutes ago
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> Hard to see how the repositioning appreciably alters this risk, since there are still thousands of satellites in the same plane to get hit by shrapnel from intentionally caused collisions, and the satellites in the lower orbit aren't invulnerable to it either

Yes, but the lower the orbit, the faster atmospheric drag (which isn't zero, just low) cleans up a cascade.

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fireflymetavrse
2 hours ago
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There is huge increase of orbital launches in recent years [1] done mostly by SpaceX and China is also planning to double its numbers in the coming years. The risks will be even higher.

[1] https://spacestatsonline.com/launches/country

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goku12
2 hours ago
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That's the Kessler Syndrome. But it's better if it happens in a lower orbit, irrespective of what assets are present there. Space will be free for exploration again in a few years since all the debris there would eventually decay and deorbit.

The article mentions a few months at 480 km. I'm a little skeptical about this figure though, because the last tracked piece from an NRO satellite that was shot down at ~250 km by SM-3 missile in operation burnt frost, lasted 20 months in space before reentry. SpaceX is probably using a statistical cutoff percentage of fragments to calculate the time. But all the pieces are dangerous uncontrolled hypervelocity projectiles. Spain lost a military communications satellite a few days ago from a collision with a tiny undetermined space debris.

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Cthulhu_
1 hour ago
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It's one reason why space should be regulated (but globally / internationally), the systems in place are kinda loose and more of a gentleman's agreement insofar as I understand it. A plan for decomissioning / de-orbiting stuff should definitely be mandatory. I know there's an area for geostationary sattelites to park themselves after their lifespan, for example.

But the LEO ones like Starlink will see their orbit decay in about five years (if I'm reading things correctly) even if they run out of fuel / can no longer be controlled, according to e.g. https://space.stackexchange.com/a/59560. But it's exponential, at 600 km it takes 10 years, at 700 25 years, at 800 100 years, etc. Between 500-600 km seems to be ideal for things to naturally decay in case of issues.

But also, it won't be a hard and fast "we are confined to the earth now"; the simplest model is a "the risk of being hit by debris is now x%", more advanced is "there are debris clouds in these altitudes / inclinations so best to avoid those at these times of day".

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vermilingua
37 minutes ago
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Given that the previous world police are presently treating international law as toilet paper, how do you propose global regulation of space would work or be enforced?
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_factor
1 hour ago
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Two objects colliding can send debris into different orbits. Combined kinetic energy and mass differences can send debris to many different orbits.

A golf ball hitting a bowling ball or basketball, both traveling at 30 units of speed can produce quite a fast golf ball. Not all of the debris will safely burn up.

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tlb
1 hour ago
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At the speeds we're familiar with, basketballs and golf balls have elastic collisions. At orbital speeds, satellites are nearly inelastic. So fragment exit velocities lie between the two initial velocities, kv1 + (1-k)v2 for some k that depends on where each fragment came from. If they're colliding, the velocities must be somewhat different, so the weighted average speed has to be lower than orbital speed. So fragments usually don't survive many orbits.
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WithinReason
1 hour ago
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That's what I was thinking, Kessler syndrome should be impossible for objects in LEO since all debris orbits decay rapidly (probably 99.9% enter the atmosphere and burn up in minutes, the rest in hours)
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ViewTrick1002
49 minutes ago
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The periapsis will always pass through where the collision happened.

To circularize at a higher orbit you would need secondary collisions on the other side of the earth.

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inglor_cz
30 minutes ago
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I think the maths is counterintuitive here and that 10-20-40 thousand objects, give or take, isn't that much. The volume of space around our planet is HUGE.

Let us say that you had 10 thousand people running around on Earth, including all the oceans and Antarctica, and that collision of any two would release a hail of small deadly darts into the troposphere lasting, for, at 2 years or so. Which is approximately how long debris will last on LEO, though the actual values vary.

You still wouldn't expect all those 10 thousand people to obliterate themselves like that, as the Earth's surface is pretty darn big.

The volume of the LEO-relevant space is much bigger than the volume of the entire troposphere on Earth, because a) it is further away from the Earth's center than the troposphere, b) it is much deeper.

Now, 10 million objects, that would be a different story. So would be some specific peculiar orbit which is overcrowded. But tens of thousands of objects spread all over the entire planet isn't that much. That would be like 2-5 people in total roaming the entire Czechia, how often would they come into contact? Not very often.

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tonyhart7
52 minutes ago
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small price to pay for global internet
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ben_w
9 minutes ago
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When it happens, it no longer provides global internet.
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tonyhart7
5 minutes ago
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interstellar internet ???
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nelox
26 minutes ago
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What’s the plan as the solar maximum returns?
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Jean-Papoulos
3 hours ago
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From a comment :

>The first move in the coming WWIII, where the emperors try to expand their empires militaril,y will be to wipe out any orbit with Starlink satellites.

I find this highly unlikely, given Starlink is soon to reached 10k satellites and will continue to grow. Why expand 10 000 ballistic missiles to bring down one of many communications networks ?

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ben_w
4 minutes ago
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Looking at the price of industrial lasers, right now the only thing stoping a random 3rd world terrorist cell from being able to afford to destroy all of them is the adaptive optics to compensate for atmospheric turbulence.

Well, that and the fact that so much of the stuff on Amazon etc. that's listed as "welding laser" is actually a soldering iron.

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TOMDM
2 hours ago
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Because Kessler syndrome means you don't need to hit all 10k yourself.

Lowering the orbits just means that we get back to normal faster, not that the it's impossible.

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lijok
2 hours ago
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Does Kessler syndrome also mean ICBMs become nonviable?
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Dylan16807
2 hours ago
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No.

It's not a wall. The risk from going through a dangerous orbit is much much less than the risk from staying there.

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goku12
1 hour ago
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That depends on how you define risk. If it means the probability of a collision, then you'd be correct. But if a collision does happen, the consequences will be worse than being in the same orbit. Based on an oversimplified model, debris in orbit is likely to have low relative velocities with respect to an intact satellite in the same orbit, since a large deltav would change the orbit. (It's not as simple as this, but it's good enough in practice.)

This is actually what asat weapons take advantage of. They usually don't even reach orbital velocity, just like ballistic missiles (of course, there are exceptions like the golden dome monstrosity). The kill vehicle just maneuvers itself into the path of the satellite and lets the satellite plough into it at hypervelocity.

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gpderetta
2 hours ago
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I remember a short story about Canada preventing total global annihilation in WWIII, by deliberately triggering Kessler syndrome. My google-fu is failing me though.
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iberator
2 hours ago
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I would love to read it:)
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aucisson_masque
2 hours ago
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You don’t need 10k missiles. You need just one to blow up all of starlink satellites.

This is like bowling, you hit one, it hits the other one etcétéras.

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jdiez17
2 hours ago
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You would likely need at least one per orbital plane, of which there are about 24.
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tlb
1 hour ago
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You could launch some missiles, blow a few satellites into smithereens, and gradually over the next few months they would take out the others. That's a poor kind of war weapon. An effective weapon is one where you can inflict damage continuously, and are able to stop immediately upon some concession. If you can't offer to stop in return for concessions, you won't get any.
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RealityVoid
1 hour ago
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You don't take down satellites in order to force someone to negotiate, you take them down for denial of capabilities.
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panick21_
1 hour ago
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Its not really that easy, to cause such a chain reaction, specially if the other person reacts.

And its also really expensive, each sat you take down costs you far more then what you hit. So unless you can actually cause a chain reaction its a losing proposition.

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ViewTrick1002
39 minutes ago
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Not really. That’s more science fiction than reality. You should try some Kerbal Space Program and explore how orbits are affected by thrust = collisions, in different directions.

As soon as a satellite is hit the rest of the fleet can start thrusting and raise their orbits to create a clear separation to the debris field.

Following such an attack the rest of the fleet would of course spread out across orbital heights and planes to minimize the potential damage done by each hit, leading to maximum cost for the adversary to do any damage. Rather than like today where the orbits are optimized for ease of management and highest possible bandwidth.

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xxs
2 hours ago
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Starlink has already been used in Russian's war against Ukraine. Of course the satellites can take photos as a bonus.

It's a massive spy network, if weaponized.

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GuB-42
1 hour ago
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What kind of pictures can starlink would take? When I look at pictures of starlink satellites, I don't see a camera. Maybe they have one, but if we can't see it, it is most likely useless for observation, except for taking pretty pictures of the Earth, or maybe other passing satellites.

Spy satellites are more like space telescopes, but pointed at the Earth. As an example, Hubble is designed after a spy satellite, the "camera" is pretty massive and obvious.

Starlink can probably be weaponized for a variety of thing, like for communication, obviously, but I don't think earth optical observation is one of them.

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DrScientist
1 hour ago
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It's also been used for regime change attempts - part of the internet that's harder to shutdown, though apparently jamming GPS currently appears to be quite effective.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iran-in...

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bell-cot
2 hours ago
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If it's WWIII, and you're using ballistic missiles against satellite constellations, then either:

- You are not targeting individual satellites; you're setting off nuclear warheads in space, and relying on the EMP to disable all satellites within a large radius of the blast - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

or

- You're nuking the ground-based command & control centers for those satellites. Again, nothing like 10,000 missiles needed.

(Or both.)

To target 10,000 satellites directly, the "obvious" weapon would be a few satellite-launch rockets, lofting tons of BB's (or little steel bolts, or whatever) - which would become a sort of long-duration artillery barrage shrapnel in orbit.

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LightBug1
2 hours ago
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What was that game on old PC's? ... Minesweeper ...
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