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ericpauley

5 hours ago

[-]

Some real cognitive dissonance in this article…

“The PDF Association operates under a strict principle—any new feature must work seamlessly with existing readers” followed by introducing compression as a breaking change in the same paragraph.

All this for brotli… on a read-many format like pdf zstd’s decompression speed is a much better fit.

xxs

4 hours ago

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yup, zstd is better. Overall use zstd for pretty much anything that can benefit from a general purpose compression. It's a beyond excellent library, tool, and an algorithm (set of).

Brotli w/o a custom dictionary is a weird choice to begin with.

adzm

4 hours ago

[-]

Brotli makes a bit of sense considering this is a static asset; it compresses somewhat more than zstd. This is why brotli is pretty ubiquitous for precompressed static assets on the Web.

That said, I personally prefer zstd as well, it's been a great general use lib.

dist-epoch

3 hours ago

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You need to crank up zstd compression level.

zstd is Pareto better than brotli - compresses better and faster

atiedebee

3 hours ago

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I thought the same, so I ran brotli and zstd on some PDFs I had laying around.

  brotli 1.0.7 args: -q 11 -w 24
  zstd v1.5.0  args: --ultra -22 --long=31 
                 | Original | zstd    | brotli
  RandomBook.pdf | 15M      | 4.6M    | 4.5M
  Invoice.pdf    | 19.3K    | 16.3K   | 16.1K

I made a table because I wanted to test more files, but almost all PDFs I downloaded/had stored locally were already compressed and I couldn't quickly find a way to decompress them.

Brotli seemed to have a very slight edge over zstd, even on the larger pdf, which I did not expect.

1 hour ago

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EDIT: Something weird is going on here. When compressing zstd in parallel it produces the garbage results seen here, but when compressing on a single core, it produces result competitive with Brotli (37M). See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46723158

I did my own testing where Brotli also ended up better than ZSTD: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46722044

Results by compression type across 55 PDFs:

    +------+------+-----+------+--------+
    | none | zstd | xz  | gzip | brotli |
    +------|------|-----|------|--------|
    | 47M  | 45M  | 39M | 38M  | 37M    |
    +------+------+-----+------+--------+

mrspuratic

47 minutes ago

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> I couldn't quickly find a way to decompress them

    pdftk in.pdf output out.pdf decompress

order-matters

2 hours ago

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Whats the assumption we can potentially target as reason for the counter-intuitive result?

that data in pdf files are noisy and zstd should perform better on noisy files?

2 hours ago

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What's counter-intuitive about this outcome?

order-matters

1 hour ago

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maybe that was too strongly worded but there was an expectation for zstd to outperform. So the fact it didnt means the result was unexpected. i generally find it helpful to understand why something performs better than expected.

1 hour ago

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Isn't zstd primarily designed to provide decent compression ratios at amazing speeds? The reason it's exciting is mainly that you can add compression to places where it didn't necessarily make sense before because it's almost free in terms of CPU and memory consumption. I don't think it has ever had a stated goal of beating compression ratio focused algorithms like brotli on compression ratio.

sgerenser

25 minutes ago

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I actually thought zstd was supposed to be better than Brotli in most cases, but a bit of searching reveals you're right... Brotli, especially at the highest compression levels (10/11), often exceeds zstd at the highest compression levels (20-22). Both are very slow at those levels, although perfectly suitable for "compress once, decompress many" applications which the PDF spec is obviously one of them.

itsdesmond

52 minutes ago

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> Pareto

I don’t think you’re using that correctly.

DetroitThrow

2 hours ago

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I love zstd but this isn't necessarily true.

dchest

2 hours ago

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Not with small files.

3 hours ago

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Are you sure? Admittedly I only have 1 PDF in my homedir, but no combination of flags to zstd gets it to match the size of brotli's output on that particular file. Even zstd --long --ultra -22.

greenavocado

4 hours ago

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This bizzare move has all the hallmarks of embrace-extend-extinguish rather than technical excellence

https://developer.chrome.com/blog/shared-dictionary-compress...

bhouston

5 hours ago

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Are they using a custom dictionary with Brotli designed for PDFs? I am not sure if it would help or not, but it seems like one of those cases it may help?

Something like this:

In my applications, in the area of 3D, I've been moving away from Brotli because it is just so slow for large files. I prefer zstd, because it is like 10x faster for both compression and decompression.

4 hours ago

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The pdf association is still running experiments on whether or not to support custom dictionaries based on real life workloads gains.

So it might land in the spec once it has proven if offers enough value

Proclus

51 minutes ago

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It seems they're using the standard dictionary, which is utterly bizzare.

The standard Brotli dictionary bakes in a ton of assumptions about what the Web looked like in 2015, including not just which HTML tags were particularly common but also such things as which swear words were trendy.

It doesn't seem reasonable to think that PDFs have symbol probabilities remotely similar to the web corpus Google used to come up with that dictionary.

On top of that, it seems utterly daft to be baking that into a format which is expected to fit archival use cases and thus impose that 2015 dictionary on PDF readers for a century to come.

I too would strongly prefer that they use zstd.

bhouston

40 minutes ago

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BTW I've looked into custom dictionaries before for similar use cases and I suspect it would only offer like a 1% improvement or so for PDFs -- still good, but not a massive difference maker. The issue is that PDFs, like web pages, are incredibly repetitive in terms of their tags/structure. As such the custom dictionary only helps if the doc is really small, otherwise because of the repetitive nature, the self-inferred dictionary will resemble the custom dictionary after just a few blocks of PDF content.

The sole exception is if they are restarting the brotli stream for each page, and they are not sharing a dictionary, custom or inferred across the whole doc. Then the dictionary will have to be re-inferred on each page, and then a shared custom dictionary would make more sense.

bobpaw

5 hours ago

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How can iText claim that adding Brotli is not a backward incompatible change (in the "Why keep encoding separate" table)? In the first section the author states that any new feature must work seamlessly with existing readers. New documents created that include this compression would be unintelligible to any reader that only supports Deflate.

Am I missing something? Adoption will take a long time if you can't be confident the receiver of a document or viewers of a publication will be able to open the file.

4 hours ago

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It's prototypish work to support it before it land's in the official specification. But it will indeed take some adoption time.

Because I'm doing the work to patch in support across different viewers to help adoption grow. And once the big opensource ones ship it pdfjs, poppler, pdfium, adoption can quickly rise.

croes

3 hours ago

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There are old devices where the viewer can’t be patched. That’s killing one of the main features of PDF

whinvik

42 minutes ago

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I am often frustrated by PDF issues such as how complicated it is to create one.

But reading the article I realized PDFs have become ubiquitous because of its insistence on backwards compatibility. Maybe for some things it's good to move this slow.

ndriscoll

3 hours ago

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What is the point of using a generic compression algorithm in a file format? Does this actually get you much over turning on filesystem and transport compression, which can transparently swap the generic algorithm (e.g. my files are already all zstd compressed. HTTP can already negotiate brotli or zstd)? If it's not tuned to the application, it seems like it's better to leave it uncompressed and let the user decide what they want (e.g. people noting tradeoffs with bro vs zstd; let the person who has to live with the tradeoff decide it, not the original file author).

eru

2 hours ago

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Well, if sanity had prevailed, we would have likely stuck to .ps.gz (or you favourite compression format), instead of ending up with PDF.

Though we might still want to restrict the subset of PostScript that we allow. The full language might be a bit too general to take from untrusted third parties.

dunham

13 minutes ago

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Don't you end up with PDF if you start with PS and restrict it to a subset? And maybe normalize the structure of the file a little. The structure is nice when you want to take the content and draw a bit more on the page. Or when subsetting/combining files.

I suspect PDF was fairly sane in the initial incarnation, and it's the extra garbage that they've added since then that is a source of pain.

I'm not a big fan of this additional change (nor any of the javascript/etc), but I would be fine with people leaving content streams uncompressed and running the whole file through brotli or something.

wongarsu

1 hour ago

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Few people enable file system compression, and even if they do it's usually with fast algorithms like lz4 or zstd -1. When authoring a document you have very different tradeoffs and can afford the cost of high compression levels of zstd or brotli.

Someone

1 hour ago

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- inside the file, the compressor can be varied according to the file content. For example, images can use jpeg, but that isn’t useful for compressing text

- when jumping from page to page, you won’t have to decompress the entire file

ksec

4 hours ago

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Why not zstd?

HackerThemAll

3 hours ago

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I think this was the main reason (from the linked article) LOL:

"Brotli is a compression algorithm developed by Google."

They have no idea about Zstandard nor ANS/FSE comparing it with LZ77.

Sheer incompetence.

cortesoft

24 minutes ago

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I can’t imagine the people actually doing the technical work don’t know about Zstandard.

1 hour ago

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I just took all PDFs I had in my downloads folder (55, totaling 47M). These are invoices, data sheets, employment contracts, schematics, research reports, a bunch of random stuff really.

I compressed them all with 'zstd --ultra -22', 'brotli -9', 'xz -9' and 'gzip -9'. Here are the results:

    +------+------+-----+------+--------+
    | none | zstd | xz  | gzip | brotli |
    +------|------|-----|------|--------|
    | 47M  | 45M  | 39M | 38M  | 37M    |
    +------+------+-----+------+--------+

Here's a table with all the files:

    +------+------+------+------+--------+
    | raw  | zstd | xz   | gzip | brotli |
    +------+------+------+------+--------+
    | 12K  | 12K  | 12K  | 12K  | 12K    |
    | 20K  | 20K  | 20K  | 20K  | 20K    | x5
    | 24K  | 20K  | 20K  | 20K  | 20K    | x5
    | 28K  | 24K  | 24K  | 24K  | 24K    |
    | 28K  | 24K  | 24K  | 24K  | 24K    |
    | 32K  | 20K  | 20K  | 20K  | 20K    | x3
    | 32K  | 24K  | 24K  | 24K  | 24K    |
    | 40K  | 32K  | 32K  | 32K  | 32K    |
    | 44K  | 40K  | 40K  | 40K  | 40K    |
    | 44K  | 40K  | 40K  | 40K  | 40K    |
    | 48K  | 36K  | 36K  | 36K  | 36K    |
    | 48K  | 48K  | 48K  | 48K  | 48K    |
    | 76K  | 128K | 72K  | 72K  | 72K    |
    | 84K  | 140K | 84K  | 80K  | 80K    | x7
    | 88K  | 136K | 76K  | 76K  | 76K    |
    | 124K | 152K | 88K  | 92K  | 92K    |
    | 124K | 152K | 92K  | 96K  | 92K    |
    | 140K | 160K | 100K | 100K | 100K   |
    | 152K | 188K | 128K | 128K | 132K   |
    | 188K | 192K | 184K | 184K | 184K   |
    | 264K | 256K | 240K | 244K | 240K   |
    | 320K | 256K | 228K | 232K | 228K   |
    | 440K | 448K | 408K | 408K | 408K   |
    | 448K | 448K | 432K | 432K | 432K   |
    | 516K | 384K | 376K | 384K | 376K   |
    | 992K | 320K | 260K | 296K | 280K   |
    | 1.0M | 2.0M | 1.0M | 1.0M | 1.0M   |
    | 1.1M | 192K | 192K | 228K | 200K   |
    | 1.1M | 2.0M | 1.1M | 1.1M | 1.1M   |
    | 1.2M | 1.1M | 1.0M | 1.0M | 1.0M   |
    | 1.3M | 2.0M | 1.1M | 1.1M | 1.1M   |
    | 1.7M | 2.0M | 1.7M | 1.7M | 1.7M   |
    | 1.9M | 960K | 896K | 952K | 916K   |
    | 2.9M | 2.0M | 1.3M | 1.4M | 1.4M   |
    | 3.2M | 4.0M | 3.1M | 3.1M | 3.0M   |
    | 3.7M | 4.0M | 3.5M | 3.5M | 3.5M   |
    | 6.4M | 4.0M | 4.1M | 3.7M | 3.5M   |
    | 6.4M | 6.0M | 6.1M | 5.8M | 5.7M   |
    | 9.7M | 10M  | 10M  | 9.5M | 9.4M   |
    +------+------+------+------+--------+

Zstd is surprisingly bad on this data set. I'm guessing it struggles with the already-compressed image data in some of these PDFs.

Going by only compression ratio, brotli is clearly better than the rest here and zstd is the worst. You'd have to find some other reason (maybe decompression speed, maybe spec complexity, or maybe you just trust Facebook more than Google) to choose zstd over brotli, going by my results.

I wish I could share the data set for reproducibility, but I obviously can't just share every PDF I happened to have laying around in my downloads folder :p

terrelln

40 minutes ago

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> | 1.1M | 2.0M | 1.1M | 1.1M | 1.1M |

Something is going terribly wrong with `zstd` here, where it is reported to compress a file of 1.1MB to 2MB. Zstd should never grow the file size by more than a very small percent, like any compressor. Am I interpreting it correctly that you're doing something like `zstd -22 --ultra $FILE && wc -c $FILE.zst`?

If you can reproduce this behavior, can you please file an issue with the zstd version you are using, the commands used, and if possible the file producing this result.

28 minutes ago

[-]

Okay now this is weird.

I can reproduce it just fine ... but only when compressing all PDFs simultaneously.

To utilize all cores, I ran:

    $ for x in *.pdf; do zstd <"$x" >"$x.zst" --ultra -22 & done; wait

(and similar for the other formats).

I ran this again and it produced the same 2M file from the source 1.1M file. However when I run without paralellization:

    $ for x in *.pdf; do zstd <"$x" >"$x.zst" --ultra -22; done

That one file becomes 1.1M, and the total size of *.zst is 37M (competitive with Brotli, which is impressive given how much faster it is to decompress).

What's going on here? Surely '-22' disables any adaptive compression stuff based on system resource availability and just uses compression level 22?

1 hour ago

[-]

Why not use a more widespread compression algorithm (e.g. gzip) considering that Brotli barely performs better at all? Sounds like a pain for portability

1 hour ago

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I'm not sold on the idea of adding compression to PDF at all, I'm not convinced that the space savings are worth breaking compatibility with older readers. Especially when you consider that you can just compress it in transit with e.g HTTP's 'Content-Encoding' without any special PDF reader support. (You can even use 'Content-Encoding: br' for brotli!)

If you do wanna change PDF backwards-incompatibly, I don't think there's a significant advantage to choosing gzip to be honest, both brotli and zstd are pretty widely available these days and should be fairly easy to vendor. But yeah, it's a slight advantage I guess. Though I would expect that there are other PDF data sets where brotli has a larger advantage compared to gzip.

But what I really don't get is all the calls to use zstd instead of brotli and treating the choise to use brotli instead of zstd as some form of Google conspiracy. (Is Facebook really better?)

1 hour ago

[-]

Could you add compression and decompression speeds to your table?

55 minutes ago

[-]

I just did some interactive shell loops and globs to compress everything and output CSV which I processed into an ASCII table, so I don't exactly have a pipeline I can modify and re-run the tests with compression speeds added ... but I can run some more interactive shell-glob-and-loop-based analysis to give you decompression speeds:

    ~/tmp/pdfbench $ hyperfine --warmup 2 \
    'for x in zst/*; do zstd -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done' \
    'for x in gz/*; do gzip -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done' \
    'for x in xz/*; do xz -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done' \
    'for x in br/*; do brotli -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done'
    Benchmark 1: for x in zst/*; do zstd -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done
      Time (mean ± σ):     164.6 ms ±   1.3 ms    [User: 83.6 ms, System: 72.4 ms]
      Range (min … max):   162.0 ms … 166.9 ms    17 runs
    
    Benchmark 2: for x in gz/*; do gzip -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done
      Time (mean ± σ):     143.0 ms ±   1.0 ms    [User: 87.6 ms, System: 43.6 ms]
      Range (min … max):   141.4 ms … 145.6 ms    20 runs
    
    Benchmark 3: for x in xz/*; do xz -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done
      Time (mean ± σ):     981.7 ms ±   1.6 ms    [User: 891.5 ms, System: 93.0 ms]
      Range (min … max):   978.7 ms … 984.3 ms    10 runs
    
    Benchmark 4: for x in br/*; do brotli -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done
      Time (mean ± σ):     254.5 ms ±   2.5 ms    [User: 172.9 ms, System: 67.4 ms]
      Range (min … max):   252.3 ms … 260.5 ms    11 runs
    
    Summary
      for x in gz/*; do gzip -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done ran
        1.15 ± 0.01 times faster than for x in zst/*; do zstd -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done
        1.78 ± 0.02 times faster than for x in br/*; do brotli -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done
        6.87 ± 0.05 times faster than for x in xz/*; do xz -d >/dev/null <"$x"; done

As expected, xz is super slow. Gzip is fastest, zstd being somewhat slower, brotli slower again but still much faster than xz.

    +-------+-------+--------+-------+
    | gzip  | zstd  | brotli | xz    |
    +-------+-------+--------+-------+
    | 143ms | 165ms | 255ms  | 982ms |
    +-------+-------+--------+-------+

I honestly expected zstd to win here.

terrelln

38 minutes ago

[-]

Zstd should not be slower than gzip to decompress here. Given that it has inflated the files to be bigger than the uncompressed data, it has to do more work to decompress. This seems like a bug, or somehow measuring the wrong thing, and not the expected behavior.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46035817

37 minutes ago

[-]

Thanks a lot. Interestingly Brotli’s author mentioned here that zstd is 2× faster at decompressing, which roughly matches your numbers:

I’m also really surprised that gzip performs better here. Is there some kind of hardware acceleration or the like?

PunchyHamster

4 hours ago

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incompetence

4 hours ago

[-]

You can read about it here https://pdfa.org/brotli-compression-coming-to-pdf/

4 hours ago

[-]

That mentions zstd in a weird incomplete sentence, but never compares it.

F3nd0

3 hours ago

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They don’t seem to provide a detailed comparison showing how each compression scheme fared at every task, but they do list (some of) their criteria and say they found Brotli the best of the bunch. I can’t tell if that’s a sensible conclusion or not, though. Maybe Brotli did better on code size or memory use?

eviks

3 hours ago

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Hey, they did all the work and more, trust them!!!

> Experts in the PDF Association’s PDF TWG undertook theoretical and experimental analysis of these schemes, reviewing decompression speed, compression speed, compression ratio achieved, memory usage, code size, standardisation, IP, interoperability, prototyping, sample file creation, and other due diligence tasks.

LoganDark

1 hour ago

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I love when I perform all the due diligence tasks. You just can't counter that. Yes but, they did all the due diligence tasks. They considered all the factors. Every one. Think you have one they didn't consider? Nope.

nialse

3 hours ago

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Who is responsible for the terrible decision? In the pro vs con analysis, saving 20% size occasionally vs updating ALL pdf libraries/apps/viewers ever built SHOULD be a no-brainer.

h4x0rr

4 hours ago

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Wouldn't lzma2 be better here since a pdf is more read heavy?

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46035817

F3nd0

4 hours ago

[-]

Going by one of Brotli’s authors’ comment [1] on another post, it probably wouldn’t.

superkuh

1 hour ago

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This is nice, but PDF jumped the shark already. It's no longer a document format that always looks the same everywhere. The inclusion of "Dynamic XFA (XML Form Architecture) PDF" in the spec made it so PDF is an unreliable format. The aformentioned is a PDF without content that pulls down all it's content from the web. It even still, ostensibly, supports Flash (swf) animations. In practice these "PDF"s are just empty white pages with an error message like,

>"Please wait... If this message is not eventually replaced by the proper contents of the document, your PDF viewer may not be able to display this type of document. You can upgrade to the latest version of Adobe Reader for Windows®, Mac, or Linux® by visiting http://www.adobe.com/go/reader_download. For more assistance with Adobe Reader visit http://www.adobe.com/go/acrreader. Windows is either a registered trademark or a trademark of Microsoft Corporation in the United States and/or other countries. Mac is a trademark of Apple Inc., registered in the United States and other countries. Linux is the registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in the U.S. and other countries."

kayodelycaon

19 minutes ago

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Fortunately, XFA is deprecated. I haven’t seen one of those for a very long time.

avalys

3 hours ago

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This article is AI slop.

2 hours ago

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Yep.

cess11

4 hours ago

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'Your PDF:s will open slower because we decided that the CDN providers are more important than you'.

If size was important to users then it wouldn't be so common that systems providers crap out huge PDF files consisting mainly of layout junk 'sophistication' with rounded borders and whatnot.

The PDF/A stuff I've built stays under 1 MB for hundreds of pages of information, because it's text placed in a typographically sensible manner.

1 hour ago

[-]

Ridiculous statement. CDN providers can already use filesystem compression and standard HTTP Accept-Encoding compression for transfers (which includes brotli by the way). This ISO provides virtually no benefit to them

delfinom

5 hours ago

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tl;dr Commerical entity is paying to have the ISO altered to "legalize" their SDK they are pushing which is incompatible with standard PDF readers.

ISO is pay to play so :shrug:

4 hours ago

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No this feature is coming straight from the PDF association itself and we just added experimental support before it's officially in the spec to help testing between different sdk processors.

So your comment is a falsehood

https://pdfa.org/brotli-compression-coming-to-pdf/

lmz

5 hours ago

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It's not even clear that they were the ones suggesting inclusion. They're just saying their library now supports the new thing.

> As of March 2025, the current development version of MuPDF now supports reading PDF files with Brotli compression. The source is available from github.com/ArtifexSoftware/mupdf, and will be included as an experimental feature in the upcoming 1.26.0 release.

> Similarly, the latest development version of Ghostscript can now read PDF files with Brotli compression. File creation functionality is underway. The next official Ghostscript release is scheduled for August this year, but the source is available now from github.com/ArtifexSoftware/Ghostpdl.

adrian_b

3 hours ago

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Yes, I do not see any source of financial gain that could motivate them for this, because both MuPDF and Ghostscript are free.

MuPDF is an excellent PDF reader, the fastest that I have ever tested. There are plenty of big PDF files where most other readers are annoyingly slow.

It is my default PDF and EPUB reader, except that in very rare cases I encounter PDF files which MuPDF cannot understand, when I use other PDF readers (e.g. Okular).