European Alternatives
478 points
8 hours ago
| 26 comments
| european-alternatives.eu
| HN
vldszn
4 hours ago
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I submitted my project EasyInvoicePDF (a free & open-source invoice generator) a couple of months ago to European Alternatives but never heard back unfortunately.

The project has no backend and is purely browser-based, but I’m based in Europe and developing the project here, so I consider it a European project =)

App: https://easyinvoicepdf.com/?template=stripe

GitHub: https://github.com/VladSez/easy-invoice-pdf

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s_dev
4 hours ago
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It's a cool project but it is 'niche'.

I think the purpose of the site is more about the alternatives to 'large players', platforms and infrastructure companies. Still Constantin Graf should have clarified out of politeness but possibly he's busy or doesn't have time to respond to every email.

However I'd point out there is a market for European 'Product Hunt' that would include more of these smaller projects.

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vldszn
4 hours ago
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Thanks for the comment. I hadn’t thought about this before, but it makes sense - I agree.

About European Product Hunt - very good idea.

I was thinking recently that we need more European social networks, messengers, etc.

It’s a very good time to build imo =)

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embedding-shape
2 hours ago
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> About European Product Hunt - very good idea.

Older members of HN will remember that Product Hunt probably came to life a lot because of HN and the submissions/comments from rrhoover (founder of Product Hunt). He's still active here, but before/during Product Hunt launch he was very active if I remember correctly.

Maybe a grander idea is a European Hacker News, that has the potential to spawn the European Product Hunts of tomorrow :)

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tialaramex
2 hours ago
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I don't know that an EU Hacker News makes sense, a core EU idea is Freedom of Movement.

This started out as an ideal about Goods. You make a Doodad in Venice, clearly there should be as few obstacles as possible to prevent somebody in Dublin having that Doodad, so no export taxes between Venice and Dublin, shared regulatory framework so that your Venice "This Doodad won't choke a baby/ burn down a house/ spy on you/ etc." paperwork is valid in Dublin, and so on.

But immediately people who make goods said well this rule needs to include Capital, it's great that I can sell Doodads from Venice in Dublin, but if I want to build a Doodad factory in Venice but my money is in Dublin that should be easy too. And Workers realised if it's just Capital and Goods then it's a race to the bottom for Labour, the Capital and Goods will go where it's cheapest but the workers can't move. So very soon Workers can move freely too, in order that Hans the Doodad Engineer can move to Venice and the courts ended up deciding that in practice everybody gets this freedom, a 5 year old can't have a job and a 105 year old probably doesn't want one, but maybe Hans needs to support his 5 year old grand-daughter and his 105 year old grandfather, so Freedom of Movement must apply to all EU citizens.

So, with that idea in mind, I suspect the EU's perspective is that you should come to Europe and write software here, rather than that you should stay exactly where you are and if it's not an EU country then too bad, no EU Product Hunt for you.

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embedding-shape
2 hours ago
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I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Yes, a core idea is freedom of movement, but you make no case for why that makes EU Hacker News infeasible? It has nothing to do with where people write software. I'm using US Hacker News, and I'm in Europe, is that wrong/bad, or what's your argument here?
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carlosjobim
1 hour ago
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I don't think creating an invoice is "niche". It is such a common need for users that invoicing software should be included in the operating system application suite. (Which it is somewhat if you consider Pages invoice templates).

Millions and millions of people need to make and send invoices. Many more than people who need domain name registrars, uptime monitoring services, content delivery networks, or microblogging services.

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vldszn
48 minutes ago
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Hard agree
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e38383
6 minutes ago
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You probably need to include EN16931, XRechnung, Factur-X, ZUGFeRD, … and how they all called, the new standard for electronic invoices.
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Notch123
27 minutes ago
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I have been working on https://1launch.eu for the past two months. Very MVP stage. I don't plan to be in the same niche as european-alternatives, but it is very much inspired by this. It is largely meant to be a ProductHunt / AngelList for Europe with a couple of key features especially for the European market (like instant translation into all 24 languages of the EU to launch in the whole European market in one go). If you want to launch on the platform or want to be involved in a different way, send me an email on hackernews@1launch.eu
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reconnecting
4 hours ago
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Same here.

Open-source security framework (1). Applied 16 August 2025. Company registered in Switzerland (EFTA). No reply.

However, European Alternatives is a personal (sole proprietorship) website and has nothing to do with Europe, despite the name and style, which are slightly misleading as they mimic official EU website aesthetics.

1. GitHub: https://github.com/tirrenotechnologies/tirreno

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vldszn
3 hours ago
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Make sense.

Btw tirreno looks very cool, just starred on GitHub :)

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reconnecting
3 hours ago
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Thanks so much!
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quicksilver03
3 hours ago
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I've seen the same thing, the site accepts submissions but there's no one to either approve or reject them.

Unfortunately they did really well at SEO at one time, and more active alternatives appear far below in the search results.

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vldszn
3 hours ago
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Do you know any good alternatives?
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quicksilver03
57 minutes ago
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I've been able to submit new entries to

https://eucloud.tech/

https://buy-european.net/

I've also found other problematic ones:

https://euro-stack.com/ (I couldn't understand how to submit a new entry)

https://www.goeuropean.org/ (all submissions fail with an AirTable error [sic] that the workspace is at the record limit)

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vldszn
46 minutes ago
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Interesting. Thanks for the info
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cocoto
3 hours ago
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I think the biggest issue is that your product is not from a company generating money (and taxes). IMO as an european, I think we should aim for open source, not corporate software, but free and open source software is generating way less jobs and taxes money.
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badsectoracula
3 hours ago
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The site has a lot of open source projects though, in fact i found about copyparty[0] from it because it was listed as an alternative to file hosting services (though it was removed since then, probably because it isn't a service :-P but still there are various FLOSS projects).

[0] https://github.com/9001/copyparty

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vldszn
3 hours ago
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Yes, make sense.

I plan to add a paid “pro” version with more features, but the current functionality will remain free.

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albertgoeswoof
3 hours ago
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Same, can’t get https://mailpace.com listed, no idea why
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schubidubiduba
3 hours ago
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> template=stripe

Maybe this was enough to not include it?

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vldszn
3 hours ago
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What is the problem with “/?template=stripe”…?

=)

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Tachyooon
8 minutes ago
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Something I'd love to see is a Europe-hosted mirror of software repositories like pypi, juliahub, and the like. It feels pretty essential to have these be available no matter what, but I haven't found any such mirrors.
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202508042147
1 hour ago
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One obvious thing missing from any of those lists: Visa and Mastercard alternatives. This is the protection money that is never brought up by the US officials when they say that America was paying for our security.
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mpol
23 minutes ago
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Wero is coming. Currently it is only available in a few countries.
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202508042147
11 minutes ago
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+1 for Wero! Unsure where I can see their timeline.
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202508042147
2 hours ago
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Doing my bit: migrating my small company's db this weekend from AWS RDS to Hetzner VPS + volumes. Fingers crossed!

Already done: replaced SendGrid with Sweego.

Later: move domains from US registrar to EU based.

The difficult bit is the Microsoft Office because we are also using Azure DevOps for code, tickets, wiki and ci/cd.

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toomuchtodo
1 hour ago
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What EU based registrars would you recommend?
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mindhunter
28 minutes ago
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202508042147
8 minutes ago
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Hetzner might be a good choice to keep things together, as we're already using some services from them.
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202508042147
31 minutes ago
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I haven't looked into this yet, so I cannot recommend. I'll work my way through the list here: https://european-alternatives.eu/category/domain-name-regist...
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wolvoleo
48 minutes ago
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For me personally, one that's well supported by DNS-01 providers for let's encrypt.

Unfortunately there's not that many and often the process is broken.

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ulrischa
1 hour ago
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This is great. Since the greenland crisis I'm busy replacing all my us software and other products (e.g. no Heinz, no Apple...)
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s_dev
8 hours ago
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Same submission from a few years ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29627097

What's insightful to me is how fast the list of alternatives are growing.

The list is much better now than 2021 and we still have a long way to go.

Also Constantin Graf needs to add a new Category: "LLM Clients" or "AI Tooling"

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j1elo
2 hours ago
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Does this hook up with promotion of the EUPL [1] as a preferred license for software? Does it even make more sense for european FOSS authors over the GPL family?

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Public_Licence

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mschae23
1 hour ago
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The EUPL is a fine license, especially if your goal is wide compatibility with other copyleft licenses. However, that compatibility also weakens its own copyleft, which could be surprising if you just read the main text.

Also, the GPL is not as short and has more explicit wording for how it behaves in common situations (like the P2P copying stuff, for example), and it allows certain additional restrictions and exceptions (like what the LGPL is). It's just more well thought-out in my opinion.

Edit: Reading it again, I also just remembered that the EUPL's warranty disclaimer is a lot weaker than usual licenses, and weirdly also asserts the program is a “work in progress”.

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palata
17 minutes ago
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> However, that compatibility also weakens its own copyleft

Can you elaborate on that?

My understanding is that EUPL is a bit like MPLv2 or LGPL in the spirit. Like it protects the project itself, but doesn't go viral like the GPL.

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Mojah
1 hour ago
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We’ve been seeing a surprising amount of leads come through this site, clearly the demand for a EU alternative is high.
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loehnsberg
5 hours ago
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Isn't it sad that we now have Russian, Chinese, American, European, etc alternatives? I mean I get it, Sept 11 paved the way for FISA orders and NSA overreach, Russia and China reverted back into dictatorship, but Europe is also at the edge. Shouldn't we rather fight that nationalistic power grab that just makes us all poorer and less free? And instead propagate global alternatives that are not subjected by some power-hungry state-/capital-sponsored overlord?
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madwolf
5 hours ago
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What are global alternatives? Every company is connected to some country, there are no global alternatives. I live in EU and want to use EU services mainly because I want this part of the world to prosper. I want to leave my money and incentivise innovation in this part of the world because this is where I live and I want a better life here for me and my kids. And alternatives are always good, especially that they’re not closed. People in the US can use services from EU companies as well :) why not?
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kromokromo
3 hours ago
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Theoretically possible in a distributed way, though usually inefficient. IPFS is a good example.
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BenoitEssiambre
3 hours ago
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It is a sad reality. The US has recently threatened to annex Denmark and Canada. Some of us are suddenly keenly aware that the US is in a position to take control of most of our computers and phones via software updates.

Open source is the global alternative you're looking for. There's even interesting hardware options like https://starlabs.systems/

The US also has had an unfair advantage in tech/defense and finance because it hosted the global hubs of the free world. This attracted eye-watering amounts of money to places like SF and NY. With this newfound isolationism, tariffs etc. reducing the viability of hosting the global hubs, there's massive opportunities opening in europe and elsewhere.

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whilenot-dev
3 hours ago
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> Isn't it sad that we now have Russian, Chinese, American, European, etc alternatives? [...] Shouldn't we rather fight that nationalistic power grab [...]

While I agree with your sentiment, European and nationalistic are two contradicting positions, unlike the other three mentioned superpowers.

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ivan_gammel
3 hours ago
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Not really. The forging pan-European nation composed of many nationalities is a thing in all meaningful contexts. European civilization, European economy, European products, European voters etc.
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whilenot-dev
2 hours ago
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Not really, no. Europe is neither a sovereign state nor a single political entity. It's a continent composed of many individual nations with a versatile history.

I mean sure, your example shows that the virtue of being "European" represents a certain demographic and a sovereign territory. Again, it's a continent, so what?

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lmf4lol
1 hour ago
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yet
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whilenot-dev
1 hour ago
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Probably never... European nations rather seem to enjoy forming Unions, Agreements and Organizations.
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tpoacher
3 hours ago
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No,not sad, centralisation is always problematic even if well meaning. The presence of diverse alternatives is a feature, not a bug.

As long as they're actual alternatives of course, rather than just another monopoly but at a smaller scale.

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NoboruWataya
5 hours ago
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This might be possible for software, if we assume that being open source can protect software from state or corporate control (doubtful to be honest). For other things I don't really see how it would work. Your hardware has to be manufactured somewhere, your infrastructure has to be located somewhere.

It is not "nationalistic" to prefer things that are made in Europe. Europe is not a nation and very few people feel anything close to national pride about it. I like that we have European alternatives instead of German, French, Swedish, etc, alternatives.

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oytis
3 hours ago
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First of all, US is at the edge of a dictatorship. If US falls completely, Europe will likely too, but untangling ourselves from US is an attempt to prevent that.
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direwolf20
3 hours ago
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The European alternatives are not restricted to Europe.
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carlosjobim
1 hour ago
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Qwant seems to be.
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ungovernableCat
1 hour ago
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European leaders fundamentally have no issue with Americans dominating tech and were happy to have their entire digital infrastructures rely on US companies. If the Trump admin could give them some sort of nod behind the scenes that all of this is just a big show and they're not actually going to break NATO or invade or w/e insane shit they're saying I guarantee you a sizeable amount would just say hey no worries then let's keep the status quo going.

But that's not what's happening. It's a clear and obvious security risk to their sovereignty. If the government can't guarantee that to its citizens then what even is its purpose? The Trump admin has already tried to use American tech dominance as leverage.

Ask yourself this question, what if there was a foreign tech competitor that managed to scale up to be basically a better cheaper AWS. Would the US government ever allow it to encroach its market to the point that AWS or Azure did in Europe? Look at what happened to tiktok if you want to see what approach they'd likely take.

So how exactly would you envision an objective and neutral provider in a world of geopolitical competition?

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AndroTux
5 hours ago
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Competition is always good. It's sad that there's been so little alternatives in the past. I'm glad that this is now slowly changing.

What we should work towards, though, is interoperability and open source solutions.

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toyg
4 hours ago
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> Sept 11 paved the way for FISA orders and NSA overreach

It's not even that. We euros were more than willing to look the other way (see the umpteen attempts to reconcile our privacy-friendly legislation with the free-for-all of American services, ongoing for decades) in the name of convenience and fundamentally shared values. The turning point was really in 2024/2025, when those shared values were summarily swept away on the other side of the Atlantic.

Besides, the "global alternatives not subjected to power-hungry overlords" are actually very much subjected to the worst of humanity, and wide open to exploitation from such overlords.

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tucnak
3 hours ago
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> Besides, the "global alternatives not subjected to power-hungry overlords" are actually very much subjected to the worst of humanity, and wide open to exploitation from such overlords.

This is, in fact, what "overlord" means!

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Archelaos
5 hours ago
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Nothing against global standards and similar. But even "global alternatives" are usually rooted somewhere locally, and that starts to matter more and more, it seems.
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thatguy0900
4 hours ago
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I think the opposite as you. These global companies often act as a nation with laws unto themselves. Most of them don't actually have real support that can do anything unless you make a lucky Twitter post or something. Having a local company that is realistically beholden to local laws and local politicians that you can actually potentially go and talk to if needed is a major feature.
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nolok
5 hours ago
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I'm really not sad about having alternative and choices, especially it also leads to reduce corporate overlordship.
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retired
5 hours ago
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Is there a European alternative for this website?
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breezykoi
5 hours ago
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journalduhacker.net (in french)
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BenoitEssiambre
3 hours ago
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Its founder lives in europe so there's that.
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s_dev
2 hours ago
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I think he means Hacker News rather than EU Alternatives.
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badsectoracula
2 hours ago
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Paul Graham lives in UK.
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s_dev
2 hours ago
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That doesn't make Hacker News European. It is American. Y Combinator is American even if pg is originally British. Stripe is American but its founders are Irish.
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badsectoracula
1 hour ago
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Yeah i know, my response was a clarification that BenoitEssiambre was referring to the founder, not the site itself. My interpretation of the "so there's that" part of the message, was an acknowledgement that Hacker News is hosted in US, but if nothing else the founder is living in UK.
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nxpnsv
34 minutes ago
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Someone should make news.eucombinator.eu…
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BenoitEssiambre
2 hours ago
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I also mean Hacker News
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noodlebird
5 hours ago
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techposts.eu i reckon
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timeon
1 hour ago
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Seems to be US-hosted.
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fsflover
2 hours ago
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Perhaps Lemmy may count based on distributed ActivityPub protocol with some servers in Europe.
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drnick1
5 hours ago
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The irony is that European alternatives are still in English, when no European country (since the departure of the U.K. from Europe) actually uses that language.
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nolok
4 hours ago
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The amount of things wrong is impressive

You're confusing Europe and the EU

You're forgetting about Ireland and Malta

You're thinking that because the UK left the EU it will change the main language countries use to speak to each others

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drnick1
3 hours ago
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> You're thinking that because the UK left the EU it will change the main language countries use to speak to each others

Yes, and that's precisely the irony. Europeans still need to subject themselves to Anglo "cultural imperialism" or absolutely nothing works, starting with communication across national borders.

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schubidubiduba
3 hours ago
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The english language has ceased to be something unique to the anglocultural world a while ago. You're making this out to be much more than it is
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palata
15 minutes ago
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> Europeans still need to subject themselves to Anglo "cultural imperialism" or absolutely nothing works, starting with communication across national borders.

Do you have a single clue about Europe? That's not true at all.

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throw__away7391
46 minutes ago
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And the US still uses Arabic numerals in spite of banning visas for basically every Arab country in the world.
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timeon
2 hours ago
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We actually already use Globish that has different idioms and so on. End we can express different kind of informations there.
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aleph_minus_one
4 hours ago
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> You're forgetting about Ireland and Malta

In both countries English is only one of the official languages.

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nolok
4 hours ago
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And how does that change anything to what is being said ? English is only one of the official languages of the UN or NATO or the WHO or ...
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anigbrowl
1 hour ago
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Hardly anyone uses Irish in daily life or for official purposes, notwithstanding its official status. 99% of the Irish you hear outside a classroom is performative.
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ben_w
4 hours ago
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Mae hyn yn wir o fewn y DU hefyd.

:P

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jacquesm
3 hours ago
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A language is a tool, not a nationality or a border.

Your average educated European speaks at least three, one of which is English because it is a good language to have because it is the language of international commerce. This has been the case since many decades and has nothing to do with using the language internally.

But: many people do use it internally. French tourists abroad are more likely to use English than French. European colleagues usually standardize on English, both for their communications as well as for their documentation needs.

Scientific literature is predominantly in English (at least, for now).

So there are many reasons to use English which have nothing to do with allegiance or dependence.

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pepinator
3 hours ago
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> Your average European speaks at least three

ok ok I get the point but let's not exaggerate

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palata
12 minutes ago
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It was edited to "average educated European", whatever that means.

But I think two languages is probably not exagerating. And not only in Europe. People have their native language and usually an international one (in Europe that would be English).

And then there are similar languages. Say a Spanish person will speak Spanish and English, and possibly French/Italian/Portuguese, so that quickly goes up to 3. Also in many countries there are already multiple languages (a portion of Spain speaks Catalan and Spanish as native languages, then probably English as international language, and they are probably not bad in French/Italian because of the similarity).

Same in the northern country that are all germanic languages: Swedish is pretty similar to Norwegian for instance, both are not too far to German, and everybody there speaks English fluently.

And then if you go in the Eastern Europe... like in Slovenia people seem to all speak 5 languages, it's insane :-).

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retired
1 hour ago
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It has been edited to "average educated European". If going by tertiary education, that is about 30% to 35% of the European population. I wouldn't be surprised if that group speaks three languages. In Spain it is typical to speak three of Spanish, Catalan, Valencian, Galician, Basque, Portugese, Arabic, English. In The Netherlands basically anyone speaks Dutch and English plus a third language, usually Frisian, Limburgish, German, French, Spanish, Turkish or Arabic.
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BeetleB
10 minutes ago
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Two American tourists were backpacking in Europe when a car pulled up next to them. The driver rolled down his window and asked in german:” Where is the nearest diner?”

The two Americans, not knowing a fraction of German, stared blankly at the driver. “Sorry, but we have no idea what you are saying.”

The driver tried again in French and again was met with blank stares and shakes of the head from the two tourists.

Getting frustrated, he tried again in Italian, in Spanish, each time receiving nothing but sheepish smiles from the two of them. Finally, he cursed under his breath and drove away angrily.

The first American asked his partner:” Maybe we should learn a second language.” His partner shrugged and replied:” Why? That dude knew four languages and it didn’t help him.”

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tene80i
5 hours ago
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The UK did not leave Europe. Just the EU. But also English fluency is widespread, so it’s not a bad starting point.
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direwolf20
3 hours ago
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English is also the lingua franca (French language) of computers.
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ogogmad
2 hours ago
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Fun fact: The term Lingua Franca originally meant something closer to Portuguese than the French spoken at the time. Eventually though, the French language did become the Lingua Franca truly, for some time.
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drnick1
2 hours ago
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> But also English fluency is widespread, so it’s not a bad starting point.

Being able to string together a couple of sentences is not "being fluent." By that standard, all of America would be fluent in Spanish.

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hagbard_c
1 hour ago
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Neither is pedantry a sign of intelligence, a message many a contributor to this here site would be good to take to heart. As to the choice of language English is and will most likely remain the lingua franca (pun intended) in most of Europe as it is the language which is most often learned as a second language. While many Europeans are not fluent in this language they do manage to read and make themselves understood in it. This makes it not a bad starting point just like the grandparent stated.
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retired
5 hours ago
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It has been around 300 million years since the UK drifted away from continental Europe but it is still very much part of it!
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robin_reala
4 hours ago
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The British isles were still connected to the continent 20k years ago.
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retired
4 hours ago
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Technically they reconnected 31 years ago with the tunnel.
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s_dev
5 hours ago
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Ireland and Malta.

You would be shocked at how well certain nationalities like the Dutch and Swedes speak English.

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palata
5 minutes ago
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> You would be shocked at how well certain nationalities like the Dutch and Swedes speak English.

Totally. All Northern countries to be fair. And then in my experience at least some Eastern countries (like Slovenia).

Really it seems like the South of Europe is a bit weaker in English, my guess being that their native languages are latin and not germanic (so it's further away from English).

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bradyd
5 hours ago
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The UK is still in Europe. They didn't move from the continent.
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dpassens
5 hours ago
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Except for Ireland.
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pjmlp
6 hours ago
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Categories missing:

- Operating systems, for various kinds of workloads

- Programming language toolchains

- Hardware vendors

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pjc50
5 hours ago
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Open source generally meets the needs of the first two. There's barely any proprietary toolchains left in common use; maybe Oracle Java is one of the last?

Hardware you can buy from China. Distant, predictable authoritarianism that doesn't make annoying social media posts is sadly preferable to .. whatever is going on over there.

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pjmlp
4 hours ago
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Only if there are European resources to keep the lights on.

Java is FOSS by the way, however it is also a good example, its runtime capabilities isn't the product of long nights and weekends.

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palata
3 minutes ago
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> Java is FOSS by the way

What was the problem between Android and Java then? Wasn't there some dispute between Google and Oracle on that? Genuinely interested.

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ben_w
4 hours ago
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Keeping the lights on is sufficient for the immediate concerns.

We can worry about feature growth later, if at all. It may be age finally changing my preferences, but so much of what I've seen sold as "new" in tech in recent years has been either worse than what I already had or a reinvention of something that already existed. Like, contactless payments were already a thing before they were available in phones, and social media didn't start with FB and twitter, and Apple's API updates in the last few years feel like as much of a downgrade to me as their icons seem to be to UI blogs.

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jimnotgym
5 hours ago
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I don't see the issue with Operating systems or programming languages. There are FOSS alternatives and since they are run locally have no connection outside of the EU.

Hardware vendors is a different issue

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pjmlp
5 hours ago
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You are missing the big picture who develops them, pays the salaries of people in the trenches, implement LSPs, and whatever else around the ecosystems.

Example, Java, .NET, Go and co are FOSS, how long do you think they will keep on going without their overlords?

For complete alternatives we need to go back to the cold war days, where programming languages were driven by vendor neutral standards, and there were several to buy from.

As it is, it suffices to take the air out of existing FOSS options.

Even if you quickly point out to GCC and clang, one reason why they have dropped implementation velocity from existing ISO revisions is due to a few well known big corps focusing on their own offerings, while other vendors seldom upstream stuff as they focus on clang.

EDIT: As I missed this on the first comment, same applies to the big FOSS OS projects, most contributions to the major Linux distros, or the BSDs come from non European companies, there is naturally something like SuSE, but then we get into the whole who is allowed to contribute, security, backdoors and related stuff.

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nitwit005
2 hours ago
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People are still running on Java 1.8, which was released in 2014. If no more Java work happened, that'd be unfortunate, but realistically we'd all be fine.
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jimnotgym
3 hours ago
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For the OS stuff wouldn't a European distribution of Linux do. Worst case if Europe could no longer get access to patches it could fork it. OK Europe might get behind, but that doesn't seem like an immediate issue, in the same way that not having AWS would be?

On programming languages it is a concern how popular .net and Java are in Europe. However being stuck on the current state of Python is less of a worry. I feel like I was always 10 years behind on needing new features.

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jimnotgym
3 hours ago
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Edit: I concede my .net concerns do pull through to Linux. If you were selling Linux solutions to Government or big business, I fear Redhat might be chosen before Suse and Ubuntu
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direwolf20
3 hours ago
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The EU is asking for information on how to support open source, as they currently do through NLNET. It seems to prefer decentralised open source to the hyper-capitalism we got from American tech. Both have their downsides, of course.
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badsectoracula
2 hours ago
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FWIW Free Pascal and Lazarus communities and developers are largely European and there isn't a single company behind them. Though at the same time there are also several devs from outside EU so i do not think it can be called a "EU alternative" - which is the case for most FLOSS projects actually.

Some projects, especially high profile ones, do have US companies behind them (e.g. Google, etc) so you could claim they are US-centric, but at this point it becomes a question of why you are looking for an EU alternative. If it is to help EU businesses (like others mentioned), then unless you financially support these US companies (either directly or indirectly via, e.g., your data) it doesn't matter if the FLOSS project you are using is made by them or not.

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pjmlp
2 hours ago
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For the same reason people on the wrong countries aren't allowed to contribute to US projects.

The way things are going it becomes a national security issue where those PR are coming from.

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badsectoracula
1 hour ago
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So, to be clear, your reasons for looking for EU alternatives (i.e. that "same reason" you refer to) is that some countries are not allowed to contribute to US projects?
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pjmlp
1 hour ago
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Yes, as it stands we should remove our independence on US, given current geopolitics, when technology can be weaponised.
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gtirloni
4 hours ago
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pjmlp
4 hours ago
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Thanks
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BenoitEssiambre
3 hours ago
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For consumers, these computers look interesting: https://starlabs.systems/
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qznc
3 hours ago
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I recently discovered these: https://www.schenker-tech.de/en/
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dismalaf
3 hours ago
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- OSes is easy, Suse and Ubuntu are European. As well as a bunch of smaller ones.

Programming language toolchains? You must be very NPM-brained, stuff like C and C++ is generally quite decentralized with OSes taking care of packaging. There's also plenty of languages that originated in Europe.

Hardware vendors? There's a few. Most hardware vendors in general are Asian though.

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freekh
3 hours ago
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Wanted to submit my CMS, Val, but there's no CMS category yet?

I tried to create a category here if it is useful for others as well: https://european-alternatives.eu/admin/category-votes/3daefd...

Oh, and here's the product page: https://val.build

GitHub is here: https://github.com/valbuild/val

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gtirloni
4 hours ago
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This is nice but if Europe doesn't fix their tech salaries situation (half US' in most cases, if not lower), I don't think it's sustainable.
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skrebbel
3 hours ago
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You simply don’t need such inflated salaries if schools are free, roads are not broken, trains exist, healthcare is affordable, grocery stores are in biking distance, parks are good and free and plenty, labor laws are in your favour, utilities markets mostly aren’t dysfunctional and a 2-bedroom apartment doesn't cost $10000/m.

Americans compare their salaries to European ones but never stop to imagine the insane high “taxes” they pay for stuff that we get cheaply or for free.

I'm not even saying the one is better than the other. There's a lot to be said for the American system of only paying for what you need. It's just.. you can't just compare dollars/euros like that. There's reddit posts of people who earn $900k/y and openly wonder whether that's enough to live in NYC and that shit is equally unfathomable to the average European as the idea of a dev earning €70k/y is to the average American.

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lmf4lol
1 hour ago
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True. But the systems are more and more breaking down. Its unsustainable. At least what I can tell from Germany and the Netherlands. to see a healthcare specialist, you wait 3-6months in some cases. Not talking about the trains. Germany DB runs on time in only 50% of the cases. So thats a big problem
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maigret
1 hour ago
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The trains that are 10 min late in Germany mostly not exist in many other countries. Sure Switzerland is the best, but Germany is pretty high up. It’s just less good than it used to be. Oh and you can ride almost everywhere for 60 EUR / month.

For healthcare if you get an IT salary you can either move to private insurance, or buy additional insurance, or just pay a consultation yourself for a fee that US people won’t believe.

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lmf4lol
43 minutes ago
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Last 7 times i took the ICE, i had 5 delays. 3 times the restaurant wasnt available. 2 times they didnt stop at my destination and I had to rent a car. so yeah. I try to travel now either by car or plane. But even by car is terrible, especially in the south. More construction sites every year and none are finishing. . Health care is totally broken if you dont have private insurance. My step dad, who has, gets an appointment 1 day after he calls. my grand ma, who worked all her life and is now on public needs to wait 5 months IN PAIN.

the system is breaking down in front of our very eyes.

i am not living in Germany. i moved to fthe NL, but the situation is very similiar.

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carlosjobim
1 hour ago
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Do you want to live in a school, on the streets, in a train, in a hospital, in a park or in a grocery store?

As long as housing is extremely expensive in Europe, nothing else matters except for higher salaries.

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lukan
1 hour ago
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Housing is not extremely expensive in europe. Only close to the big cities it is.
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carlosjobim
55 minutes ago
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It is extremely expensive almost everywhere when you compare to local salaries.
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yodsanklai
4 hours ago
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I suspect China or Russia don't have higher salaries, they still manage to build their own alternatives. And Airbus builds better planes than Boeing with European salaries.

I'm sure that with a bit of protectionism, we would build our tech as well as anybody else.

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u8080
4 hours ago
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Tech jobs in IT in Moscow are paid(net) relatively similar to what you could get in EU.
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nazgob
4 hours ago
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So not US salaries.
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u8080
4 hours ago
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Indeed, but cost of life is different as well. People usually compare US Bay area net salaries to Western EU salaries - but there are so many different things to consider as well(rent, insurances, taxes, etc) which imo spoils any constructive comparasion.
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tene80i
4 hours ago
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But why? What's unsustainable about an email service, for example, run by competent European engineers at European salaries?
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gtirloni
3 hours ago
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The huge influx of competent European engineers to the US is a real thing.
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ragall
1 hour ago
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That was true a few years ago, but not any more. Covid made a lot of US-based companies sack local developers and actually open offices in Europe. I have friends in Italy who, between 2022 and 2023, moved from local companies to US companies opening offices in Rome and Milano, and got a salary bump from ~30-35k to 80-90k plus bonus and RSUs. Same thing happening all over Europe.
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mrweasel
1 hour ago
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I don't think that's motivated by money. The US companies simply solved more interesting problems. Working for a start up in the Bay area trying to invent a new industry, or scale systems to global is generally more interesting than working on a CRM system for mid-size lumberyards in Sweden. The CRM system pays well enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and provide for your family, but it's a little boring if you're 25 with a shiny new CS degree.
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celsoazevedo
2 hours ago
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That might not be the case any more if things get to the point where someone in Europe must use a European alternative.
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kaffekaka
2 hours ago
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Will this continue?
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s_dev
4 hours ago
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High US salaries come from US VCs having to bid against other to capture talent. US VCs have more capital than EU VCs. This is why.

The EU is now going to start pumping money in to building European alternatives. EU software dev salaries are going to increase. All 27 states agreed to establish the saving and investments union.

Nothing will happen overnight but you'll see this start to play out over the next 5 years. It will take decades to catch up but we are starting.

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mrweasel
1 hour ago
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Assuming that people are solely motivated by money, which most aren't. You can't pay me enough to put my children into a school system that has "active shooter" drills. After a certain point money stops being a motivation, that point is well within the average EU tech salary band (perhaps excluding places like Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovenia and that general area).
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kuon
4 hours ago
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I might get lower salary, but if I break my leg I pay nothing and I am paid during my leave.
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gtirloni
3 hours ago
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I doubt you break your leg every year though. The kind of companies that we're talking about (big tech that are national champions) offers health insurance (among other benefits) and 200-500k USD/year salaries.

I think culture and quality of life not withstanding, the raw numbers simply don't favor the EU becoming a tech leader with the current incentives.

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Juliate
1 hour ago
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The thing is that in Europe, you don't need your employer to have health insurance. It's more beneficial for everyone in the end (well, obviously not for the private health insurance companies who care more about their margins than public wellness).
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kmac_
4 hours ago
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It's not just about salaries, but also the lack of a culture for seeding and financing. The fear of failed investments really dominates. Government and EU-backed financing is a joke, and I'm not even talking about the terms or amounts, but who actually gets them. It's pure waste of taxpayer money and should be abandoned.
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kaffekaka
2 hours ago
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I am not saying you are wrong, but Trump has shown exactly how quickly a "culture" can crumble down. Despite "checks and balances" the American democracy has done nothing to slow down the slide into dictatorship.

So how long will the culture last?

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wolvoleo
38 minutes ago
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Personally it's not all about money. I even moved to a lower wage country in Europe for better quality of life.

Having enough is what I care about and things are a lot cheaper here too. Not to mention free healthcare, social security. I don't need a car and a public transport pass is 25€ a month. That alone saves me so much money. The time till the next metro train counts down in seconds here.

When I had a car in the past it would cost me hundreds per month and it was such a headache.

I'd never move to the US even if I could make 3x as much. In fact I got an offer from a FAANG once (with the whole H1B managed by some agency I think) but I declined. I only applied because they advertised it as a local job but then when the offer came it was in California. Nope.

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Tade0
4 hours ago
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I wouldn't want US salaries with US costs of living.

Also working for companies located in Ireland[0] or Switzerland you can have your US salary, it's just that the pool of jobs is limited.

[0] Provided it's a company in the first of Ireland's two economies.

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lostmsu
4 hours ago
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Not sure about Ireland, but Switzerland used to be true, but now it is also far behind since 5+ years.

See, Google Zurich vs Seattle

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...

https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/greater...

Hm, after carefully reviewing the entries seem more or less the same, Zurich slightly lower.

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ragall
1 hour ago
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Considering the low taxes and lower cost of living in Zurich (yes, lower than Seattle), and the much higher quality of life, Zurich is a no-brainer.
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alberto-m
1 hour ago
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I'd say if you get a job in the same company, Zurich is competitive. The problem is that if you lose your job at Google in Seattle there are several hundreds of FAANG positions and probably thousands of other 200k$+ SWE jobs you can reapply to. In Zurich you will maybe see a dozen of openings in the small subsidiaries of Apple, Microsoft & Co., and maybe some individual job offers from small AI companies, and applying to any of these positions basically means competing against the whole rest of the continent.
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lostmsu
26 minutes ago
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https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... says Zurich is 33% more expensive and I remember it that way.
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toomuchtodo
2 hours ago
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The higher US salaries are a bug, not a feature, in this context.
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Teever
3 hours ago
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This talking point went out the window After America threatened to invade Greenland.

After that I bet some people would actually pay to develop software to defang the American threat.

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Fischgericht
25 minutes ago
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Before we closed our office in Mountain View years ago, every time we went over there:

- I could not get out of my San Francisco Hotel to get to a deli across the road without having to step over at least 5 homeless people.

- I could not fail to notice that even those people who did have jobs and not lost their homes to tech bros had a surprisingly low number of healthy teeth for a modern western first-world society

- An apartment with noisy air conditioning, dirty carpets and questionable building codes would cost more in rent than a villa at the Côte d’Azur.

- The air quality during fire season was a nightmare. During my time there I developed asthma.

- Everybody hated the arrogant ignorant tech people that invaded their communities, forced them out of their houses to then have to commute into the city or valley to serve tech bros. Yes, as a European I am not that well trained to constantly ignore that my privilege are causing the community around me to suffer. That I do not "earn" this gigantic salary, I am just grabbing the resources pretending the "normal" people don't deserve to have any of that.

You are getting paid so much because you in exchange are living in a sh*thole country without education, healthcare, public transport, clean air, or anything else that I as a "wealthy" developer person would expect to receive in exchange for my work.

Take your US salary, and invest it into a travel into some of the more up-to-date regions of the world. Those with clean air, education, healthcare. Places I have visited that are better than the Valley in this regard include:

- Pretty much all of Europe. Maybe with the exception of Greece and Spain, when they are now burning thanks to the "drill drill drill" people. - China - Iran - New Zealand - Australia - Canada ...

Yes, the amount of zeros on your US salary might look soooooooooooooooo impressive. But they are zeros. They don't buy you a livable live in a modern civilization.

Right now you are just bribed with money not to see the civil war getting ignited in minnesota.

Oh oh oh, now I remember! I have even been to two countries with civil wars a while ago, who had clean air, education and healthcare. And I think even directly after the civil war, all of Kosovo had a lower percentage of homeless people than the US has today.

Yes, another one of my drastic postings. But you will survive. Be brave: With someone who clearly is being paid a lot for being clever, I can assume that you think this through again, to calculate what the better deal is. You know the average amount of student debt people who want to become programmers have? Zero.

You are not getting more VALUE out of working in the US in high-tech compared to other places. There are places on this world, where being a good programmer buys you a wonderful life with nobody around you being poor, or without healthcare, or homeless. Try Estonia. They have a lovely tech community, a fully digital government. You can become a digital citizen, open your own company in minutes. And you will have a far better life.

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Semaphor
3 hours ago
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Thought I'd have another look at mail providers, but from what I can see, none support the features I use with fastmail (custom domain, security key, unlimited on-the-fly aliases for sending).
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gassi
3 hours ago
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They don't, but you shouldn't feel too bad as fastmail is australian, ie not american, which (at least personally) is where we're trying to divest.
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sleepyhead
3 hours ago
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Their servers are in the US
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earthnail
3 hours ago
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Do they have any plans to move off the US?
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Semaphor
3 hours ago
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US servers, though.
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jacquesm
3 hours ago
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This list is very impressive, but it is the wrong approach. We simply need an EU alternative to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon etc.

The closer to a drop-in replacement the better. Tying all of these functional bits and pieces together to form a consistent whole is just not going to happen. You need to approach this on a per-company level.

So, who will step up to the plate and re-implement as much of Google as necessary to catch 80% of the functionality and their EU customers?

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yabones
2 hours ago
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Isn't massive tech conglomerates locking people into their ecosystems how we got here in the first place? The quest to replace US with EU products is really just treating symptoms of the problems that tech has created in the past 2-3 decades.
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jacquesm
2 hours ago
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Yes, but the cost-to-switch is more important right now than the details, the bigger fear I have is that if such an EU alternative is successful that the US incumbents will swoop in and buy it and then you're back to square 1. That has happened quite a few times already.
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atmosx
2 hours ago
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And the EU governments will be advertising it.. already happened in Greece… few companies with strong core tech were bought by Microsoft and the gov was “so happy” for the “success story”.

Everybody and their mother is using Gmail anyway

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toomuchtodo
2 hours ago
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Is there a mechanism the EU could use to inhibit acquisition by a non EU entity?
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jacquesm
1 hour ago
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There is in France. They have a government investment arm that will invest relatively small amounts but with a string attached: a veto on any majority acquisition. This was used for instance to block the takeover of Dailymotion by Yahoo iirc.

It's a double edged sword: it may help in some cases but it hurts the investment scene overall because an exit to the USA is what most EU investors dream about because their returns overall are pretty crappy. Fragmented markets are a lot harder for investors than uniform ones.

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atmosx
2 hours ago
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It’s not a matter of mechanism. It’s a matter of mindset. Until today the mindset wasn’t there. Maybe this will change.
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mixmastamyk
2 hours ago
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A few friends and I have thought similarly, although we focused on Apple first and the Google/Office suite second. We wrote our thoughts here: https://aol.codeberg.page/eci/ and the alternatives here: https://aol.codeberg.page/eci/status.html

I personally don't think it makes a lot of sense for consumers or small business to have to wrangle dozens of IT providers. How can we consolidate them?

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jacquesm
2 hours ago
[-]
Excellent question and great to see you thinking in the same direction.

Consolidation of various open source projects is underway with projects such as owncloud but it is still very fragile and hard to maintain.

I think a pledge never to be bought out and a way to restrict stock to EU UBOs would be one step in the right direction, then you'll need a massive amount of capital to pull this off. But maybe the climate is finally right to raise a proper amount of money for such an undertaking.

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mixmastamyk
2 hours ago
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Hmm, I wouldn't say it would take a "massive" amount of capital. EU is rich enough and they don't pay developers as well, correct? Most of the building blocks already exist.
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jacquesm
1 hour ago
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Yes, but integrating them seamlessly and securely is still a huge undertaking.
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petcat
2 hours ago
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> EU alternative to Google, Microsoft, Apple, Twitter, Facebook, Amazon

This is basically just saying "we need to start by replacing 5 of the richest and most powerful companies the world has ever seen".

I think the EU should start a little smaller so they might actually make some progress on digital sovereignty within the next century.

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jacquesm
1 hour ago
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You don't have to do all five at once, and a proper replacement based on the integration of a number of partial solutions should in principle be workable. What is required is the capital and the will to do it. If someone pulls this off they can count on my company as a subscriber and I think there are many more like me.
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sublimefire
3 hours ago
[-]
It is good to have a dedicated location to find these. The problem is that you want a sufficiently large company when buying the services so that it does not fall apart or get acquired and runs to the ground, and we have a few. Also, putting a country flag to the service is cringe, it might even be odd to some because it implies a specific language/culture. We just all want to consume a proper business staffed with pros and the one which does not resell AWS services.
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johneth
4 hours ago
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Is this only for companies within the EU or EFTA? I can't spot a single UK company listed, even though there are plenty that would fit.
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kieranmaine
4 hours ago
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On https://european-alternatives.eu/about the listing criteria state:

> The company is based in an EU, EEA, EFTA, or DCFTA member country or in the UK.

but

> For hosting providers: It is not allowed that a hosting provider is simply a sub-hosting provider of a company that is not based in an EU or EFTA member country.

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s_dev
4 hours ago
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https://european-alternatives.eu/about

It's all clarified here. If you think it's missing some great companies add them!

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oulipo2
6 hours ago
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If you want an EU-made (and repairable!) e-bike battery, check what we're building at https://infinite-battery.com :)
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agumonkey
4 hours ago
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an European energy sector (mainstream or industrial) HN would be great btw

ps: congrats on your success

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enopod_
7 hours ago
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Wow, nice! Great resource, thanks a lot!
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hulitu
2 hours ago
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Funny, the first 3 are web analytics, cloud computing and CDN. So surveillance.

I would have expected an OS, an Office platform.

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rambambram
2 hours ago
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The open web is your European alternative, not the Silicon Valley-approach but then in Europe. That just invites the same abuse of data, the same enshittification and the same rent-seeking behavior.
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ogogmad
2 hours ago
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Alternatives to Amazon.com? I'm totally serious when asking about this. I think delivery apps (like the one comically named "Deliveroo") are all potential alternatives to Amazon, but I think they charge a premium.
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mk89
2 hours ago
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In DE probably Otto.de is the closest you get (?).

In NL I remember Bol was quite good.

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wolvoleo
11 minutes ago
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Yeah bol and coolblue are good in Holland
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realityking
2 hours ago
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For clothes Zalando is a big one.

Beyond that it gets fragmented into companies serving only a few markets. Alza, Cool Blue, and Media Markt are some that come to my mind.

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troupo
4 hours ago
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Last time this came up I decided to try Scaleway which is at the top of their "cloud computing" list.

"European alternative" that doesn't know that European addresses have non-ASCII characters: https://x.com/dmitriid/status/1835649083345649780

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s_dev
4 hours ago
[-]
I'm sure there are much bigger and more worthwhile criticisms to be had than this.

It's something they should fix and if they did would you suddenly switch to Scaleway? I think you would consider other factors first.

A good critique for example is OVH lost a lot of customer data due to a fire. Where was the redundancy? That would make me think twice before switching to OVH.

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alberto-m
4 hours ago
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A lack of Unicode support in 2026 is like someone coming with dirty clothes to a job interview: it might not affect too much how the work is done, but immediately raises doubts about the underlying level of professionalism.
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troupo
4 hours ago
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That was 2024 (still inexcusable), they managed to fix it at one point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46734771
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celsoazevedo
1 hour ago
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> A good critique for example is OVH lost a lot of customer data due to a fire. Where was the redundancy? That would make me think twice before switching to OVH.

I lost a VPS in that fire, but I was up and running a few hours later with a new VPS at a different OVH location.

Not to deflect blame away from OVH and their large screw up, but we should never rely only on the redundancy of the hosting provider. Even on AWS, I wouldn't trust them to not lose my data if one of their datacenters burns down.

At the time I was making regular backups to two different providers with servers somewhere else. When I noticed that it was serious, I ordered a new VPS and restored everything. If OVH itself went down, I could have used Scaleway, Hetzner, Contabo, etc.

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u8080
4 hours ago
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Hetzner/Linode were MITMing their client(jabber.ru): https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/
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troupo
3 hours ago
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Was it Hetzner, or was it an attacker hosting on Hetzner/Linode?
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direwolf20
3 hours ago
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It was the German equivalent of the NSA, with the German equivalent of a National Security Letter, sent to Hetzner to force them to intercept this customer's traffic. The same thing happens in the USA.
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troupo
4 hours ago
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> It's something they should fix and if they did would you suddenly switch to Scaleway?

You know why I have this screenshot? Because I literally tried to switch to "great European alternative" that is "as slick as DO".

After a third or a fourth screen, most of which felt completely isolated and disconnected from any previous ones, I gave up on the screen that couldn't handle a standard European address.

This was literally the point that I gave up.

So I went ahead... and signed up with Hetzner.

Edit

So I decided to try again. Literally the first page of account sign in tried to trick you into accepting tracking

Since I apparently had an account, I could login... So redirected to a subdomain with the same cookie popup. On a site that is solely for billing address collection

which then redirects you to a third domain with the a similar but different popup.

Which ends up on an empty page indistinguishable in "usability" from Hetzner (or worse)

That's the end of my experience of my "European DO that is Scaleway".

They did fix the addresss boxes, kudos to them

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m00dy
2 hours ago
[-]
we should have also claude-alternatives like projects that are entirely built by vibe-coders.
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PlatoIsADisease
4 hours ago
[-]
Ugh, back to nationalism.

I think there is some sort of Darwinistic reason for this. Maybe its inevitable.

Not to say that the US didn't help spur this, but its just sad to see.

When I was younger, I was such an idealist. Anarchy, open borders, free market open trade, pacifism.

Even as Trump started getting aggressive, I kept trying to tell myself: "Well, these other countries surly know that most of the population doesn't support this. Surely they know we are fans of liberalism, democracy, and human rights. One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years."

But I saw the comments of how quickly it seemed the general population of other nations flipped like a dime.

It has shooken me. (And I don't blame that its shooken them)

It has made me the exact person I was against. Now I think we really do need to look toward the national interest. If 1 bad politician can alienate us from 100+ years of debatably good behavior, why shouldn't we be selfish?

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bildung
2 hours ago
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People in the US need to become more aware of the dramatic impact this current administration has on the world. A paper in the Lancet, not exactly your average leftie rag, extrapolates the deaths resulting from the sudden USAID defunding to amount to about 14 million people. That's about 10x Pol Pot.

People around the world distancing themselves from these actions is hardly nationalism.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

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PlatoIsADisease
1 hour ago
[-]
I'm sorry, my cognitive bias says 'Look! See! That proves my point at how great the US is/was.'

1 bad politician elected by a fraction of the population is enough to turn the world against us. Why bother with such altruism when a single election can turn everyone against us?

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celsoazevedo
29 minutes ago
[-]
But it's not just one politician or just one election. The current guy was elected twice and the movement supporting him is unlikely to disappear any time soon. His position on tariffs, NATO, and Greenland are not new. From the outside, it doesn't look like one wrong step, but just part of the new normal.

It's also important to understand that those on the receiving end of the threats are not taking them lightly. No one's laughing. With that in mind, it's easy to understand the change in behaviour.

In the context of this thread, I've been looking at the services I use, and which ones might become unavailable if, let's say, the US takes Greenland. It has nothing to do with nationalism, I just don't want to be caught with my pants down.

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rkomorn
1 hour ago
[-]
Altruism is not transactional.

If you think the US' "altruism" should buy us goodwill, then you're not for altruism, you're for good PR.

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mg794613
3 hours ago
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Can you imagine, knowing so little of the rest of the world, you call this nationalism without irony.

Sir, please read up on Wikipedia what the EU is. What Europe is. Also, this is a very mild response to a "American first" new world order.

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PlatoIsADisease
1 hour ago
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Depends on what level you are looking at. Did you know the US is comprised of 50 states with their own laws and security forces?

Pedantic. My state didn't vote for the US president, yet you are looking to buy from a different state now.

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sublimefire
3 hours ago
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Buy local is a well known and used tactic globally in many places big and small. Another observation, saying it is nationalistic is odd given it involves multiple nationalities. US has protectionist policy EU has it, there is nothing new here. The odd thing is that it triggers the person for it being so small.
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s_dev
2 hours ago
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To clarify empowering the EU is literally the opposite of Nationalism or are you discussing the recent surge of 'American Exceptionalism' of the current US administration?
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graemep
2 hours ago
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Brexit made to clear that for some people being in the EU is an important part of their identity so that enables EU nationalism for them.

There are racist European nationalists - the Anders Breivik type.

This website is not either. However I think its worth looking beyond Europe. Avoiding the US and China and a few other countries leaves a lot of possibilities.

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dpc050505
3 hours ago
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>One bad election, everyone knows it was influenced by Russia, no big deal. They know a sane person will be elected in a few years.

You're at 2 out of 3, while Biden was mid at best and your senate has been horrendous for a very long time.

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sodapopcan
2 hours ago
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And who's to say it's not going to happen again in 2030?
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tarkin2
5 hours ago
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Using a French server has been a pain. Their level of customer service is much worse than that in the US sadly
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retired
5 hours ago
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I like it. No fake smiles, no tip required. They can be a bit grumpy but French food is amazing which makes up for it.
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breezykoi
5 hours ago
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That's what I like in the US: the servers are so friendly... and yes, I know it’s all for the tip.
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GlacierFox
5 hours ago
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Well they're not friendly then are they? It's an act to get a tip - and if you don't you get chased down the street.
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nolok
4 hours ago
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It's a different social contract. It's not just the waitress, it's service in general. One trying to judge the other is never quite going to work because it rubs us wrong in some weird internal way.

Eg go into a big store brand in most of the US and the cashier will be all flashy smile asking how is your day, and you ignore it and ask your request, and that's the game. A french person would mostly hate that, feel the question as annoying.

You go to a similar french store and the cashier and yourself will say the bonjour / merci / ... yada yada game and if someone doesn't do his part he's considered rude; I found a lot of foreigner surprised by that, the fact that you're not answering "merci" or asking "s'il vous plait" because it's nice, but because not doing it puts you in unpleasant person territory.

Ok business meeting, even in tech. American are always super optimist and happy, and seeing a solution and the end goal, French are over realist bordering on pessimist.

It's not that black and white of course there is a lot of inter mingling and differences, but overall which one you feel "better" is very personnal and based around what you're used to.

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embedding-shape
5 hours ago
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"French server", what is that? Usually we judge customer service on the company, not the nationality of the hardware, care to share exactly where you had a bad experience?
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jimnotgym
5 hours ago
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Have you tried Hetzner
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tarkin2
5 hours ago
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No, I was looking for a French one. I'll persist with this for a while and then switch if things don't get better. Thanks
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s_dev
5 hours ago
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Scaleway is slick. It's like a European Digital Ocean.
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tailspin2019
3 hours ago
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Agree, I’ve been impressed with Scaleway so far during some early experiments. Including a quick support response to a query I had.
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troupo
4 hours ago
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Last time I wanted to try it it was nowhere near DO: https://x.com/dmitriid/status/1835649083345649780
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s_dev
4 hours ago
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You've posted that twice in this thread. I don't think it's as damning as you think it is.
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mg794613
3 hours ago
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I agree, seems he's on a mission instead.
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cthulberg
5 hours ago
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OVH? I hate the dashboard, but the support seems fine to me.
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