▲Someone123459 minutes ago
[-] A new Tesla, without subscription, now has worse Steering Assist than a $22K Toyota Corolla.
Back when Autopilot launched, in consumer cars, it was pretty unique. But the market has moved on significantly, and basic Steering Assist/Full-Speed-Range Automatic Cruise Control, are pretty universal features today.
reply▲buggy625747 minutes ago
[-] My 5 year old Subaru has been able to lane keep and auto follow to the point that a 2h drive on the freeway is me tapping the wheel every ten seconds to keep it enabled while I watch for idiots. It has been able to do this since I bought it, and I haven’t paid a dime extra. Car cost 30k.
reply▲Waterluvian42 minutes ago
[-] I have a 2020 Forester and I've come to describing it as "I no-longer drive on the highway, I manage the car." Sometimes I'll get nervous and take over. But even in stop-and-go traffic, it has behaved perfectly.
My only complaint is that there's an over-eager PID loop with lane keeping. If I want to pass a transport truck and want to kind of edge to the left of my lane when doing so, it will keep trying to compensate, which I can feel in the wheel, so I compensate for as well. And if I let go of the wheel and let it win, it suddenly flings me towards the right side of the lane.
I suspect this is because it isn't programmed to think that I'm making adjustments, it probably just thinks there's some weirdness in the vehicle dynamics/road characteristics that requires extra compensation.
reply▲I have a 2023 Crosstrek, my wife has a '21 Ascent. I have the same habit you do - edging away from large trucks slightly - and both of them do the same thing you described to me.
It's essentially that Subaru's lane system actually has two levels: it has lane keeping where it's just trying to keep you inside the lines, and then on top of that it also has lane centering which is pretty much what it says.
Just a note for you or anyone reading who has a recent Subaru and doesn't know already: if you find the centering really bothersome, you should be able to be able to go into the settings on the instrument cluster display (up/down arrows at the lower left behind the wheel, toggle it until you get to the "hold for settings" option), find the Eyesight settings, and turn off lane centering. It will still try to keep you inside the lane markers but won't try to park you right in the center of the lane. In that mode, it's more like the Honda Sensing system I had on my 2016 Civic.
I go back and forth a bit on it but mostly keep it in lane centering mode now - I've gotten used to how it positions the car in the lane, and it lets me focus more on what's going on around me than micromanaging lane position and such.
reply▲nwienert35 minutes ago
[-] Have a EX90 I got on a really great deal, we drove it cross-country and it was mind-blowing how little I had to do. If it didn't make you touch the wheel / pay attention we could have basically done the entire trip without incident minus off-ramps.
But there was one thing that was quite bad, similar to yours. While passing a semi I pulled it to the left side and it actually yanked us right so hard and then over-corrected once again. Super scary moment, the only issue of the whole trip, but basically never passed with it on again.
reply▲Chilinot34 minutes ago
[-] My volvo also has a "not perfectly tuned" PID loop. With "autopilot" engaged it keeps weaving constantly left and right inside the lane im in. Have gotten used to keeping a firm-ish pressure on the steering wheel at all times to compensate. But drivers behind me must have thought me drunk before i got the hang of it.
reply▲Fair enough, but is still a Subaru. So it doesn’t make sense to compare its value to a Tesla just because of auto steer. If it comes to that, there’s a lot of value in a Tesla for which you don’t pay a dime either, like constant and actually useful system upgrades, a reliable charging network and great customer service. It’s also a good looking car with a great user interface that gets better and better with free updates. Now if you are a person dropping 50K on a Tesla, you can likely afford FSD if that’s something important to you. FSD is not comparable to any auto steer I have tried on any car, and I drive a bunch of different rental cars because I travel a lot by road for business. I like the new flexibility of being able to pay for FSD when you are going to use it only, like during a long trip. There’s no point to be on FSD (or autopilot) to run errands in the city.
reply▲Applejinx30 minutes ago
[-] Same with mine from last year. I don't tap the wheel, but I treat it as 'co-driving' or like the car has its own somewhat fussy opinions on where to be. If I zoom up on another car at a stop it's capable of freaking out and braking, it follows other cars at a good safe distance, and the lane keeping feels like you're holding the car's hand as it goes along, and its attention is generally better than yours. Works for me.
I don't want 'nap in the backseat while it drives me places', I want this. A bit of a personality keeping me on track and tidy. I'll keep my hands on the wheel but yeah, my attention is spared to watch for idiots, and I think that's good.
reply▲Well... yeah, but the Tesla will do that on an empty road, then approach a slow car from behind and make a lane change decision to pass, then take your next exit and continue on through city streets, through all sorts of traffic conditions, to your destination. And it will monitor your attention with eye tracking instead of making you mess with the wheel.
It's absolutely true that the rest of the industry is rolling out new features. But people are fooling themselves if they genuinely think it's catching up. Tesla is way, way ahead here among consumer auto vendors, and frankly at parity with Waymo in the autonomy space.
They've also made an inexplicably poor pricing decision in this case that is worth talking about. But no, your Subaru isn't a meaningful competitor.
reply▲>
But no, your Subaru isn't a meaningful competitor.Tesla is a car company. Every car company is a competitor to Tesla.
As a legacy EV manufacturer, Tesla is struggling to compete in the current car market. Tesla's sales have declined for the last two years.
It's why they're having to squeeze fewer customers for more revenue.
reply▲To be fair, though, the subscription isn't for "Steering Assist", it's for FSD. You don't subscribe to the feature you have on your Corolla, you subscribe to an autonomous navigation solution.
This is a pretty boneheaded business decision on Tesla's part. But their technology remains clearly superior.
reply▲Centigonal26 minutes ago
[-] To underscore this: the boneheaded decision Tesla is making is forcing customers to choose between a $99/mo subscription for FSD, and
no ACC or lanekeeping assist otherwise. It's like letting people buy a subscription to the iPhone Pro Max 17 or not have any phone at all.
By the way, FSD ("full self-driving") is just as inaccurately named as Autopilot. I don't know why Tesla can't call their technology, like, CyberDrive or something else that isn't glaringly inaccurate.
reply▲Someone123416 minutes ago
[-] You should maybe read the article. Tesla is removing Steering Assist from all new vehicles sold, and your options are now either
nothing or FSD for $99/month.
Previously you got the Corolla feature set included with your vehicle purchase, Enhanced Autopilot for a fee which was a step above that, and then FSD subscription which was a step-up again.
Now Tesla has downgraded the base experience to include no Steering Assist at all, and no longer offers Enhanced Autopilot. So you get two choices: No Steering Assist or FSD.
reply▲They can rename it whatever they want.
People had a feature for free, now they don’t, because Tesla wants money.
“But it’s better…” only if you pay. If you don’t, still gone.
What else matters?
I see nothing wrong with them offering a cheap(er) FSD option. I object to them removing existing features to force adoption.
reply▲Waterluvian45 minutes ago
[-] When I was testing vehicles in 2019 I found that a bunch of them had lane keeping but they kind of "bounced" between the lines. I got a Forester because for reason I typed but but aren't really topic relevant, it was far, far nicer and works amazingly. And for years whenever a Teslafriend would tout their lane keeping, I was just, "uhh yeah my base model Subaru does that." "Oh no, no this is better, this does a lot more than just the basic lane keeping you get..." "Nope, that sounds just like my Subaru."
reply▲i have a 2020 outback, and I didnt evaluate the lane keeping as part of the purchase decision. But since then i have rented a ton of different cars for work travel, and have realized surbaru has the best system out there, outside of truly premium cars / software cars like tesla. Some of them (chevvy) are outright dangerous. Its surprising because in every other way subaru's electronic / software sucks :)
reply▲My guess is Tesla is desperately in need of Q1 revenue and they want people to scarcity buy FSD lifetime @ $8K. Otherwise the strategy doesn’t make any sense. They’re saying FSD and basic Autopilot will go behind subscription and that subscription prices are expected to go up. Basically laying out that they’re planning to lock you into a subscription and then price gouge. It’s so transparent that I think the point isn’t actually the gouge but to make that threat move lifetime FSD sales.
reply▲1. There's a CA lawsuit against the FSD name, Tesla has to fix it by Feb 14th (the last day FSD is being sold). I wonder if it'll just be a rebrand for the new service.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/news-releases/d...2. Elon's Trillion Dollar Payout is tied to a certain number of FSD Subscriptions.
3. Some consumers were sold that they would get hardware upgrades for FSD. I'm pretty sure Tesla would like to minimize that, and I expect incentives for those people to purchase new vehicle without FSD.
4. Subscriptions drive our economy, I don't know the details but it seems like every company wants subscriptions over one time purchases.
I honestly don't think they want a lot of people with lifetime FSD, it's disappearing without a lot of news.
reply▲>2. Elon's Trillion Dollar Payout is tied to a certain number of FSD Subscriptions.
That wording is misleading because so far as I can tell, that payout is in tranches, and the FSD subscriptions milestone is only tied to one of the tranches. Therefore it's not as if 1 trillion dollars is riding on whether he gets enough FSD subscriptions, only 1/12th of that.
https://www.sec.gov/ix?doc=/Archives/edgar/data/0001318605/0...
reply▲> 2. Elon's Trillion Dollar Payout is tied to a certain number of FSD Subscriptions.
That explains things.
reply▲johnnyanmac44 minutes ago
[-] 4. The details are pretty straightforward. Continual passive income is more reliable than the boom bust cycles that is buying cars. The latter requires you finding more and more customers. The former is extracting more money from an assumedly commuted customer.
In theory, subscriptions are cheaper for users as well when done right and it works better with how people are compensated. But as usual, greed consumes all and if everything is a bill, that's more ways to eat at your long term wealth.
In other words: you will own nothing and like it.
reply▲> 4. Subscriptions drive our economy, I don't know the details but it seems like every company wants subscriptions over one time purchases.
Every person I know wants a subscription, too. Who wouldn’t want a nest egg throwing off passive income?
reply▲A lot of entrepreneurs hate the saasification of everything, and don't want to create sub services. They tow the line because investors LOVE subs and will look at you like you're insane if you disagree.
reply▲jaggederest14 minutes ago
[-] The reason is a very simple one - predicting future revenue is extremely difficult if you're selling an $X package one time (even with upgrades etc), but knowing that you have Y subscribers with a $Z subscription and a churn rate of N% gives you some kind of future forecast.
Anything you can do to operationalize cash flows is a huge boon to continuity of business operations
reply▲> Every person I know wants a subscription, too.
You mean consumer? I genuinely cannot understand why anyone would buy a car or a bed or a fridge that requires a subscription. That's beyond me.
I do understand why companies want to screw consumers, obviously.
reply▲lotsofpulp1 minute ago
[-] I meant everyone wants to earn a recurring income.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] My guess is they made FSD subscriptions a requirement for Elon's big compensation package.
reply▲10 million active subscriptions. It’s one of the lower targets to meet.
reply▲They haven't even sold that many cars yet. I have trouble believing they would come to 10M active subscribers in next two decades.
And like you said other targets are quite something as well
reply▲> Otherwise the strategy doesn’t make any sense.
The price is high, but it's not unique to Tesla. Ford has Blue Cruise, which is about $500/year.
People can, however, opt for openpilot/comma (https://comma.ai/openpilot), which random Youtubers tested and say it's about as good as Tesla's FSD, but has a simple one time fee of $1K But whether you want to trust open source is up to you.
reply▲Tesla is going to stop selling FSD outright on Feb 14th. It will be subscription only.
reply▲MarkusWandel1 hour ago
[-] Wait a minute. My recent-ish car has LKAS. It recognizes white lines (or possibly curbs too) and if both boundaries of the lane are recongized, will steer for you - for 10 seconds maybe, before it nags you provide some steering input. But in those 10 seconds it's perfectly capable of smoothly steering around bends in the road on its own. And it
is a useful safety feature even if only nudging the steering wheel while you're holding it.
So you don't get even that in a Tesla without (now) ponying up $$? Something that's a standard feature in my non cloud connected (or connectable!) "so last century" fossil fuel vehicle?
reply▲burningChrome43 minutes ago
[-] Was watching OPLive last week. Every week they have a segment called "Triple Play" where they have law enforcement send them videos of crazy chases and other interesting experiences.
This last week they had a guy who had completely passed out in his car and was fast asleep at the wheel. A state trooper pulled up alongside it and could see the guy slumped over his wheel. Apparently the car was essentially weaving back and forth between the lane lines because the car had LKAS enabled, effectively keeping the car from driving off the road.
The state trooper followed the car for several miles trying to decide what he should do. He tried several times by running his lights and sirens, honking, etc to no avail. He finally found a safe spot and successfully pitted the car to a stop. During the pit, the man suddenly woke up - for obvious reasons.
They later found out he had been working 22 hours straight and then was driving to his GF's house several hours away for the weekend and was just exhausted and fell asleep at the wheel.
reply▲shermantanktop6 minutes ago
[-] TIL about Precision Immobilization Technique (PIT). Sounds pretty euphemistic for intentionally crashing into someone at highway speeds.
Maybe the average cop has better driving skills than I'm giving them credit for, but...I doubt it...
reply▲Some lane keeping systems purposefully ping-pong between the lines to prevent you from relying on it by making it somewhat annoying.
If you’re using it the way you’re supposed to and giving real steering input then it helps you stay within the lines. So it’s less effort for you and it helps mitigate large wind gusts and such.
But basically lane keeping is absolutely not meant to steer for you.
reply▲> He finally found a safe spot and successfully pitted the car to a stop.
No such thing as a safe spot to PIT someone, ever, let alone while they're asleep at the wheel. This is a great example of why people hate all cops, anyone with two brain cells to rub together would get in front of the car and gradually slow to a stop.
reply▲MarkusWandel36 minutes ago
[-] I've never actually tested what happens if you ignore the "steering input required" nags from LKAS. Does it truly keep driving at cruise control speed? I assumed it would eventually slow to a stop.
As for the safety feature. I inherited (literally) a second car that's 10 years older than the primary one. You get used to LKAS. I was driving a long distance in the older one while somewhat overtired and had several rumble strip excursions that would not have happened in the LKAS-equipped car. And for the asleep guy in the parent post, it may have made the difference between still being alive and dead in head-on collision or rollover.
reply▲A few cars will go as far as to apply the brakes and pull over. I think a lot just end up disengaging the steering and cruise control while beeping loudly at you a lot.
If the weight of your foot was somehow enough to push the pedal though, you could certainly keep going.
reply▲jetbalsa27 minutes ago
[-] My 2021 Toyota corolla will fault out and stop steering for you.
reply▲If that's true: What a total idiot in the police car.
With a car on lane keeping / cruise control you could slow down in front of it all the way to a stop and it will gladly stop behind you.
reply▲barbazoo26 minutes ago
[-] That might work!
> What a total idiot in the police car.
It's important to make sure we have all the context before making a judgement like this. My rule of thumb is that if I think something is obviously stupid, I'm probably missing something.
reply▲> With a car on lane keeping / cruise control you could slow down in front of it all the way to a stop and it will gladly stop behind you.
Blue Cruise, and I assume Tesla's FSD as well, will simply change the lane and go around you.
If the guy had a simple LKAS and adaptive cruise control on, then yes, you're right.
reply▲Older systems including the older versions of Blue Cruise may not go around you, but you also don’t know if they even have radar cruise control enabled.
If it’s a simple enough system maybe it would just keep going the same speed no matter what until it hit you.
reply▲IMO; you should try the product. The car basically drives me everywhere with no interventions, including on errands around SF. Just plug in where via the Google Maps view.
I’ve been paying the monthly for a while. Very worth it to me.
reply▲“basically” is doing some heavy lifting here as they aren’t good enough to let you ignore the road without taking serious risks. So you’re stuck in the drivers seat paying attention to traffic, but you get to mostly avoid turning the steering wheel, yay what an awesome improvement definitely worth 8k or 100$/month
IMO adaptive crude control that works down to 0MPH is still the sweet spot.
reply▲MarkusWandel42 minutes ago
[-] Also standard equipment now (in my mid-level Honda Civic). However once gone to zero, it won't roll again until you nudge the throttle pedal. Also, just like lane keeping it "needs supervision". Once someone braked hard up ahead to do an almost-missed left turnoff, and I let the adaptive cruise control do what it does. And it missed it and I had to brake manually, fairly hard too!
But for driving in slow traffic with no passing lane for the next half hour (Highway 7 between Perth and Marmora, for Ontarians) it's a godsend. Just let it handle it and chill.
reply▲square_usual33 minutes ago
[-] First, you're talking about a different product, FSD vs Autopilot.
Second, I have a 2025 Model 3, and even with the latest v14.2.2 FSD I had an intervention rate of roughly every ten miles in Washington DC/VA suburbs. I shudder to think what it would do if I didn't pay attention, so I don't think it's an improvement over me driving myself.
reply▲GoatInGrey54 minutes ago
[-] How does lane-keeping assist drive you everywhere, or plug in to Google Maps? That doesn't make any sense to me. Are you talking about a separate feature or something?
reply▲Someone123444 minutes ago
[-] I have two questions:
- Is it unsupervised?
- Has legal liability shifted as a result of the system being the driver?
Because I feel like the answer needs to be "yes" for this claim to be accurate. If the answer isn't "yes," then you're still meant to be fully engaged with driving and are liable for any accidents that occur.
reply▲> The car basically drives me everywhere with no interventions
I believe you, but occasionally it will try to kill you.
reply▲verdverm55 minutes ago
[-] It could be a better product, but that doesn't mean it's a better purchase if you care about the morals of the companies and leaders you do business with
reply▲Is your car really not connected/connectable?
I have a 2014 car that's connectable but no driver assistance; I had a 2017 (delivered mid 2016) with lane keeping and emergency braking which seemed pretty new and exciting, and it's connectable, all I would need to do is pay a big annual fee and also setup a 3g CDMA network. Couldn't do much with either if it's connected; I pulled the 3g modem from the 2014 when it was convenient cause I was worried it was using power while off.
Not that lane keeping needs a connection, just that I'm surprised they put it on a car without a modem.
reply▲MarkusWandel50 minutes ago
[-] To my knowledge it is completely offline. The fanciest version of it (Honda Civic) has wifi and will connect to your house wifi when in range (and also do wireless Android Auto) but mine doesn't have it. This one has no cloud features and if there's a SIM card lurking deeply in there somehwere, it certainly isn't going to facilitate reaching down to monitor me in the car (the hardware isn't there, aside from the microphone for bluetooth) or change features on me.
reply▲fc417fc80244 minutes ago
[-] I won't claim to know for certain but want to point out that if there's a SIM card in the head unit then it can upload anything it can see on the CAN bus which is literally every sensor in the vehicle. I guess the only thing likely to be missing is a cockpit video feed.
reply▲fc417fc80249 minutes ago
[-] Even if it doesn't offer the user an option to connect AFAIK approximately all vehicles from the past 15 years or so are part of the internet of shit. They send telemetry back to the manufacturer.
reply▲I have a Subaru with driver's assistance. Basically you input speed and distance from the vehicle ahead, and the car turns, accelerates, and brakes. It disengages quite often, in particular when the lanes are not clearly marked.
I used it a couple of times, but then I stopped; for me, as a driver/passenger, it has very little value. Yes, maybe I can lower my attention from 100% to 95%, but it does not make much difference: I need to keep my hands on the wheel, it disengages at random (for me) times.
True autopilot is very different.
reply▲Yeah I don't get Tesla's move here. Lane Keep Assist has been a standard feature in most new cars, EV or not, starting around ~2019ish. IIRC, the EU now has regulations mandating lane keep assist in all new vehicles sold.
Heck, a cheap base model Maza 3 I rented had lane keep assist.
Tesla only stands to lose by gatekeeping what's now a basic feature behind a paywall.
reply▲b40d-48b2-979e59 minutes ago
[-] It checks out with all the other awful software changes they're making like whatever "curvature assist" is that randomly brakes where it doesn't need to, or when it gets confused about what road I'm on while on the freeway and suddenly drops my 75mph cruise control to 55mph and slams the brakes.
I miss having a dumb cruise control.
reply▲Is this a precursor to Tesla offering autopilot in vehicles from other manufacturers? Sure, other manufactuers would have to adopt the hardware and integrate with the autopilot interface, but self-driving is inevitable and Tesla autopilot is the best.
reply▲They're offering 50% off the subscription to people who used to have Enhanced Autopilot [1]. As I predicted when the CEO's compensation plan had a part tied to FSD subscriptions, they are going to push more people onto it by bundling more features and cutting the price.
[1] https://x.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014751111803032049
reply▲fc417fc80236 minutes ago
[-] Reminds me of when an ISP offered me a discount if I would agree to sign up with their partnered TV service. I agreed on the condition that I didn't have to rent a box. But you can't use the service without a box ... ? Who cares, I got a discount.
reply▲Show me the incentives i'll show you the outcomes.
reply▲These sort of shenanigans for even basic lanekeeping makes a very strong case for more open source solutions like comma
reply▲Sorry but the LAST thing I want is people being able to YOLO code onto their cars to drive on public roads.
That was my original main complaint with Tesla and why I distrusted them so much before Elon publicly lost the plot.
Even with Autopilot it was clear to me they were far more willing to force the risks of their systems on all other drivers on the road then the legacy auto makers who were much more cautious about testing things extremely thoroughly first. All those early videos of people climbing in the backs of their cars while they were driving down the highway? To me that was proof they couldn’t be trusted with public safety.
reply▲Pressing the lane assistant button on a Mercedes steering wheel and getting a “you’ll need to activate your subscription first” message really drove up my blood pressure.
reply▲And the EU companies are surprised a lot of people buy Chinese now.
Screw the subscriptions. I don't care how much the shareholders want them.
reply▲> Screw the subscriptions. I don't care how much the shareholders want them.
Agreed. The investor requirements of any company mean nothing to me as the consumer.
reply▲You know you can just buy it?
reply▲GoatInGrey46 minutes ago
[-] In this case, they bought and currently own the sensors and hardware that the ML model is stored on. Moreover, the software runs locally.
It's a silly example, but you can think of it as buying a house and the ceiling lights requiring a subscription to turn on.
As an aside, I wonder how long this can keep up before it begins affecting laws around theft and property damage if the person operating, storing, insuring, and maintaining the physical objects don't contractually own them. Is Mercedes a victim if the LKAS camera gets damaged or stolen, rather than you?
reply▲hermanzegerman32 minutes ago
[-] I mean they surely knew this before they bought their car and bought it anyway. So I don't get the complaint
Are you sure they bought the ML Models?
The Hardware is inside because it's required for the emergency lane keeping, but I wouldn't be surprised if the OEMs would have a deal with the supplier where they are paid more if this feature gets enabled
reply▲b40d-48b2-979e56 minutes ago
[-] They already bought the car.
reply▲whynotmaybe43 minutes ago
[-] I'm wondering whether it's a generational vision and that the concept of ownership of software with hardware is slowly becoming obsolete.
Every young adult I know uses a subscription for everything I used to buy.
Even though they own the device on which they consume it.
Spotify for cd's, Netflix-Disney-Amazon for vhs and dvd's, Udemy-Masterclass for books.
reply▲hermanzegerman32 minutes ago
[-] Yes, despite knowing that it's not included. It's like hitting yourself and complaining afterwards about it
reply▲It’s built in. There is a dedicated button for it. Hard to justify imho.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] My Comma 4 arrives today, and I think it will be great (using it with my Lightning, not my Model 3), but I think it is just a temporary solution that is effectively a dead man walking. The latest cars are not usable with a Comma and likely will never be, with manufacturers locking down the CANBUS with encryption.
reply▲fc417fc80232 minutes ago
[-] Literal anticompetitive behavior in the name of safety. The more of them that move to subscription services the better the chance the scheme gets legally challenged I figure.
reply▲rootusrootus2 minutes ago
[-] I hope it does. A bit of regulation clarifying that I own my car would be nice, with a requirement than I be given the encryption keys on request.
reply▲Comma's days are numbered. Newer cars are encrypting the bus, so that HW like comma can't get the data it needs.
reply▲Comma can be installed on a tesla, I've seen a couple of them already driving around the Bay Area
reply▲Very strong case for keeping your hands on the wheel, eyes on the road and drive the car yourself.
reply▲it’s a standard feature on all models for many brands today
reply▲jmward0130 minutes ago
[-] I work hard to keep subscriptions out of my life. I will do everything in my power to not have a subscription as part of any car I own. The problem is it is likely out of my hands. I have a 21 yo car and a 12 yo car and will eventually have to get something 'modern' (worse) that forces spyware/subscriptions on me just to get from point at to point b. I will have to pay astronomical prices on a worse experience for the privilege of having my data sold and the opportunity to pay them monthly. I want to scream when I see things like this but to who? I wonder how hard it is to electrify a 20yo car....
reply▲> I have a 21 yo car and a 12 yo car and will eventually have to get something 'modern' (worse) that forces spyware/subscriptions on me just to get from point at to point b
I daily a 30 year old car. There exists a sweet spot of reliability, safety, and comfort (probably the early-mid 2000s) that in theory, you should never have to buy a vehicle outside of, newer or older. There will always be clean old cars in good shape you can buy, you don't need a new vehicle.
Unless you can't buy gasoline anymore. But that's still quite a long ways away imo.
reply▲jmward0112 minutes ago
[-] luckily I don't drive much. The one car is just falling apart and is ridiculously expensive to maintain (don't buy a used Mercedes, ever). The other is just not fun to be in but at least it gets reasonable gas mileage. I really want an electric vehicle, especially the way things are going right now, but buying anything built in the last 10 years is just depressing at best and electric vehicle life is much lower on average than ICE lifespan due to battery life. Ah well. Maybe this will push me to an electric scooter for all the in-town travel and I will only need a 'real car' once a month or so.
reply▲I've tried the various flavors of self-driving in my Tesla over the past several years, and essentially it came down to a three-strikes rule for me - after the third time that car jerkily exited the self-driving mode on it own (the third time being in a slight bend on the highway at night) and spiked my heart rate to must have been an all-time high as I manually corrected in time to avoid disaster.. I said "nope, this is a decent electric car but I'm driving it myself from now on."
Waymo on the other hand, I trust it with my life on a weekly basis and have never had cause for concern (fingers crossed I didn't just jinx it).
reply▲throwawa142231 hour ago
[-] Just like all subscriptions this kills my interest in it. Tech is only interesting if it isn’t locked in a corporate data center.
reply▲you must be really bored with pretty much all the popular tech today then
reply▲Not the person you’re responding to but yes, pretty much all of modern tech is awful.
The specs are pretty good but then you don’t really own it, you get limitations on what you can use it for, you get rent seeking and walled gardens everywhere. Even if you’re paying you get ads and get tracked. Updates make products worse more often than not.
What are you excited about? AI slop?
reply▲... and? Nothing wrong with not buying into what's popular.
reply▲dylan60442 minutes ago
[-] and nothing. it's a comment on how everything is closed tech by the platforms, not a knock on being bored with that fact. i fully agree and do not participate on those platforms.
reply▲TacoCommander1 hour ago
[-] Our 2020 Model S came with Autopilot. It was part of the purchase price.
We don't use FSD, we don't use Autopilot either.
But I'll be goddamed if he tries to take away something I paid for.
reply▲square_usual32 minutes ago
[-] This is only for new cars sold, as they can't take away features that were included in the advertised price for a car when it was sold.
reply▲Haven’t they done that before?
reply▲I would gladly pay $99/month if this was honest FSD. I started tracking my time consistently since end of December and in the past 2 weeks I spend 23 hours driving. That's already only $4/hour.
I haven't been keeping up with the progress in this space. Last I heard, Benz introduced some sort of self driving feature AND accepted full liability for it (whereas Tesla does not). How does Benz's self driving compare to Teslas?
reply▲drak0n1c24 minutes ago
[-] There are unsupervised HW4 Tesla robotaxis in Austin open to public use as of yesterday. Lemonade Insurance announced an FSD plan where the price is half the market rate while using FSD. So unless there are specific regulatory barriers for personal vehicles unsupervised should be available for their latest gen personal cars sometime this year.
reply▲That’s basically what SAE L3 and above levels of autonomy mean. The manufacturer takes full responsibility of the driving while the function is active.
I drove Mercedes and BMW L3 offering. Both had a really restricted ODD (Operational Design Domain) for it to be of much use outside high traffic situations on an Autobahn. It was restricted to good weather and speeds of around 60km/h. Basic all conditions under which their set of sensors and CPUs would work optimally.
But that was 2021 technology. L4 level of autonomy will be in the market during the next 4/5 years, no doubt. And that will be a game changer for anyone driving any significant amount of time. Sleeping, reading, watching a movie or just working on the laptop will be possible. And the manufacturer will take full responsibility of the driving while the functions are active.
reply▲Benz's full self driving is only up to 40mph and only when it has a car to follow in front of you.
reply▲When you said this, lemming's all jumping off a cliff came to mind...
reply▲And temperatures over 0 degrees Celsius with no rain. I tried it.
reply▲We've had FSD trial for 4 months in the middle of last year. I work from home so I can't really justify $100 a month. However, we did take a few trips (about 60 miles in each direction) to see family through downtown LA.
I was honestly stunned by how far the tech has come. It basically drove us door to door without a single intervention.
reply▲I talked to about 3 people about this that have personal experience with Tesla autopilot and that's been the feedback. So where's the gap? What's the problem?
reply▲He said the price will increase as it gets more capable. Funny though, they've lowered the price of FSD over the years...
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] He lies so consistently, it continues to impress me how effectively he controls TSLA investors.
reply▲$99/mo is for FSD, not just lane keeping.
The article doesn’t explain what happens to simple lane leeping. Surely it should be free like in any other car (like my Volvo).
reply▲Lane keep is autopilot which is going away (for new cars). FSD doesn't have basic lane keep. The real question will be what happens to "legacy" cars with autopilot.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] > The real question will be what happens to "legacy" cars with autopilot.
Tesla cannot take anything away that was on the Monroney sticker. This includes AP.
reply▲Lane keeping is a default feature for free on all tesla's and this article doesn't say it's going away.
reply▲Its being reported elsewhere that future new teslas will not have basic autopilot (the name Tesla use for the standard lane keep assist they offer) at all, the only way to get any form of lane keep assist will be to subscribe to FSD. The wording in the ars article linked here does a terrible job of explaining the change. Existing Teslas which already have basic Autopilot will still continue to have the feature.
New Teslas will now only have "Traffic Aware Cruise Control" as standard without lane assist, i.e. keeps pace with traffic and can stop/start, but user still has to provide steering input.
reply▲It’s autopilot and yes on current models. New models will not get it. That’ll be FSD only.
reply▲I don't see this mentioned in the configurator for a new model 3 on the tesla site right now. Under "Driver Assistance" it describes "Traffic-aware cruise control" only. Under "Active Safety" it includes "Lane Departure Avoidance" which is separate from the "Autosteer" feature described under the "Autopilot" section. It's possible they will choose to fold autosteer into the lane departure avoidance but there's been no announcement of that.
https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_il/GUID-ADA05DF... reply▲Autopilot / FSD was a mess. Autopilot is very old tech and people confusing "self driving" with it, which it's not. We'll see how many pony up for FSD, but I think the play is to force people to try it.
reply▲They handed people free trials before, which is using the carrot and not the stick. Around where I live, with HW3, the last trial made it clear that it was just not worth it at all, as there's key areas around my house where intervention was mandatory.
reply▲YY594875983471 hour ago
[-] Do BYD and other Chinese EVs have this insane subscription scheme for basic features on their cars, or is that only a feature of North American/European manufacturers?
reply▲Once BYD is the most popular car, they will complain that it's probably because of the Chinese government manipulating the people. But the truth is that I would happily buy a BYD car knowing that it's a good product, with no goddamn subscriptions.
reply▲TacoCommander1 hour ago
[-] I am also curious about this, how does the average person in China feel about subscriptions?
reply▲The funny part is that the Tesla doesn't have a basic dumb cruise control. It only has "traffic-aware" cruise control which uses the cameras and doesn't use the new FSD code so it has lots of glitches and phantom braking and decides for itself what speed to use. My wife just wants to set the speed and have the car go that speed.
reply▲FSD makes sense as a subscription as it's something that gets updated all of the time. Subscriptions to things built into the car like heated seats seems like a way to scam money out of people.
reply▲Someone123439 minutes ago
[-] I agree; but Autopilot unlike FSD hasn't been updated in several years.
It doesn't contain maps or context of the roads, it is just Auto-Steer + Lane-Change + Full-Range Cruise Control under one brand-umbrella. Mostly useful on the Motorways/Freeways, and commonly found in competitor's vehicles.
reply▲If you have the basic "Free" Autopilot was it possible to upgrade it in the app to Enhanced Autopilot to get the lane change feature?
reply▲Someone123413 minutes ago
[-] It was at some points; I believed it was priced between $2K-4K depending on the point in time and either offered post-purchased or only during ordering, again, depending on which time-period.
reply▲My Garmin receives updates and I don't have to pay a subscription for that. Hell I don't even need updates if it does what it should. Often the updates are there to fix bugs because the software was sold before being ready.
reply▲I'm 41 and I've never been comfortable with even cruise control, when I drive I DRIVE.
I can't shake the feeling of trusting an already complex machine to yet another layer of complexity through software.
---
The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain.
— Scotty, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
reply▲ArekDymalski32 minutes ago
[-] What will be the next step? ignition? wipers? opening passenger doors? charging for functionality that several manufacturers offer for past several years sounds like desperation to get any revenue.
reply▲As long as people buy them, they have no reason not to do it. What I can't understand is why people buy those cars in the first place.
reply▲Why would Tesla lock adaptive cruise control when others have it subscription free?
reply▲How much does braking cost ?
reply▲perfmode58 minutes ago
[-] $0.00000008 per Newton of deceleration force applied to the vehicle.
Pressing the brake pedal and maintaining a stationary position is billed at a rate of $0.003 per second of immobility.
Energy dissipation during the braking event costs an additional $0.00001 per Joule of heat generated.
reply▲Depends on your social credit score.
reply▲direwolf2050 minutes ago
[-] The American social credit score is just called credit score.
reply▲tehwebguy24 minutes ago
[-] $8,000 / $99 / month is 6 years 8 months.
How long do people keep their Tesla normally?
reply▲physhster46 minutes ago
[-] Is this an ad for comma.ai? Because it sure reads like one...
reply▲Article is unclear but if this is saying you can't even get basic ADAS w/out $99/mo that is a pretty big deal, especially if it's applied to existing cars.
Basic stay-in-line and start/stop following in traffic has become pretty standard for almost a decade at this point and paywalling it now would be outrageous. I have a 2017 car that does this.
reply▲Basic ADAS is government-mandated. Even shitbox Toyotas with traditional ignition keys have it for free.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] Do you have a source for that? I'm not aware of any regulation requiring ADAS. Even automatic emergency breaking is not yet required for a few more years.
reply▲Well Teslas now ship without the Lane Keeping. So the Toyota Shitbox has better ADAS
reply▲baggachipz50 minutes ago
[-] I'm glad I got rid of my Teslas, they are always doing their best to make the experience worse. Stage three of enshittification from them. I loved it back when it was stage 1.
reply▲It's a tradeoff, too early to say if it's a dumb move.
Side A: Tesla can grow FSD subscription revenue by making FSD + Autopilot completely based on subscription. Lot more people use Autopilot than FSD. In the happy path such users will pay the subscription and that revenue will increase.
Side B: Autopilot (aka lane keeping) is fast becoming default option across manufacturers. Tesla will take a dip in sales if such 'basic' option is no longer available.
Whether side A > side B is to be seen.
reply▲cosmicgadget39 minutes ago
[-] I'd prefer to evaluate it from the viewpoint of someone outside the Tesla c-suite.
reply▲jackmarshl0w46 minutes ago
[-] I think comma would be a great alternative from these clown
reply▲1970-01-0139 minutes ago
[-] $99!
Not worth it for anyone doing less than 100 miles/day.
reply▲Tesla's autopilot was so clumsy that I stopped using it and forgot about it years ago. I like the adaptive cruise control though, it is more transparent and decidedly more of a benefit, except for its phantom braking moments. Autopilot's requirement that your hands be on the wheel (and do nothing) is a strain over time, definitely boring, and a terrible interface. I don't understand why people would pay for such an awkward feature. The monthlong demos of Full Self Driving I tried were even more awkward. The need to keep your hands on the wheel required a different but nearly equivalent cognitive load to actual steering, when using it in residential and city traffic. The crucial difference is that "the car was driving me" rather than "I was driving the car". Tesla can't convince everyone that their driver assist technology warrants product status; take away driver autonomy and make them pay for it seems like a failure to me. It won't be a product until you can sit in the back, close your eyes and safely arrive at your destination. Good luck getting to that level of quality with this business model. Tesla should be giving the tech away to its car owners and collecting as much data as they can, right? I have points to spare for the astroturf Muskovites to downvote my honest (but embarrassed) customer perspective.
reply▲I drive one on Dutch roads, and a lot of the back roads (60km/h) are one lane with dotted lines on the side like here: [1]
If you turn on TACC, it will constantly whine that you're hugging the side of 'your lane'. But it's one lane for both directions, you're supposed to hug your side!
In my SAAB I used cruise control anywhere I expected to maintain speed for any amount of time. In the Y I don't bother on this type of road because it bitches at me constantly and sometimes even jerks me to the middle of the lane. That's never happened with oncoming traffic but I'm not risking it.
[1]https://shorturl.at/jSQhP (shortened, Maps links are huge)
reply▲well, years ago is a long time in tech. the latest videos I've seen show people not having to touch the wheel any more, and it apparently drives fairly long complex routes with no intervention.
There's even Teslas operating as "auto taxis" now in some cities - they drive entirely without anyone even in the driver seat.
reply▲waffletower22 minutes ago
[-] I TL;DR the update release notes, and wasn't aware that the wheel holding requirements were gone. I am not convinced yet, as I got a phantom "take control of your vehicle" alert when leaving the driveway a few weeks ago, for no apparent reason (hands on wheel, no visible hazards). They happen every once in a while. My daughter has been thinking of using the Tesla alert sound in one of her trap songs given our familiarity with it.
reply▲vlovich12359 minutes ago
[-] I would recommend testing out the latest FSD. It’s made huge forward steps vs what was there before.
reply▲heisenbit33 minutes ago
[-] Musk is a true genius: You were paying first for the hardware and then to conduct training supervision for the AI while taking full responsibility if something goes wrong.
reply▲The basic autopilot is very useful. It would be nice if they offered it as a one-time fee when ordering your car.
reply▲fortran7743 minutes ago
[-] The latest version of FSD is amazing. We have it on our Plaids (2024 and 2026 models) and I probably only actually "drive" 5% of the time. There's a camera to see if you're paying attention to the road, so no longer any need to keep your hands on the wheel. It'll start from a parking space and go all the way into my house and back into the garage.
Of course, I don't trust it as much as I trust Waymo's system, and I'm very careful when using it in rain or fog...
reply▲cosmicgadget37 minutes ago
[-] So you're saying people should just pay for the subscription? Seems like tangential FSD(S)-glazing here.
reply▲eldaisfish33 minutes ago
[-] Cameras wired into an internet connected car is the #1 reason why I will never buy a car like a Tesla.
Anecdotes like yours are often from the point of view of someone in California - sunny, clear weather most of the year. In monsoon rain, fog, snow, or unusual markings on the road, all these systems break down.
reply▲fortran7719 minutes ago
[-] > Cameras wired into an internet connected car is the #1 reason why I will never buy a car like a Tesla.
Well then, this isn't the car for you. For many other people the safety features are important. I wouldn't mind if every car had a camera that made sure the driver was paying attention and didn't fall asleep.
reply▲Is the article confused or will there literally be no lane-keeping without the subscription? Because nowadays every car rental place bottom of the barrel Kia has lane-keeping.
reply▲Tesla’s “autosteer” is significantly more advanced than the “lane keeping” feature I’ve seen in rental cars, or my own 2023 Jeep. My understanding is that autosteer will actively keep the car centered in the middle of the lane, while the “lane keeping” I’ve experienced will only adjust the steering when you approach the lane edge, which pin balls you back and forth like a drunk driver.
reply▲I have a 2020 Alfa Romeo (interestingly also a Stellantis car like your Jeep), it has "follow the lane" feature. For the edge of the lane, it can either vibrate as a warning or force you off it, I have it set to vibrate.
reply▲In mid tier and premium tier cars, lane keeping is either implicitly or explicitly lane centering. My Navigator calls it lane keeping but it is centering, and my Audi specifically calls out lane centering.
reply▲bigstrat200326 minutes ago
[-] That is not universally true. It's lane keeping in my wife's Volvo, and it sucks in exactly the way described up-thread.
reply▲My experience with that brand specifically is they should call it "lane oscillating".
reply▲I went with that example because I had a Kia Sportage from Hertz and it had lane centering (not just the thing that detects you are deviating from the lane). It did want you to touch the steering wheel but that's just cheaper driver monitoring.
reply▲Jeep and all the other Stellantis brands have the worst lane assist and worst tech options on the market, and the trim level on any rental is going to be as basic as they can get away with.
reply▲it's click-bait, the lane keeping is free and is not going away
reply▲Do you have a source for that? I thought all of Tesla's "default" driver assistance was part of Autopilot, which is going away. I haven't seen any mention of decoupling various features from Autopilot (with some remaining free, just without the branding).
reply▲This is similar to GM‘s Super Cruise, which is similar in functionality and also a monthly subscription.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] GM Super Cruise (and Ford's Blue Cruise) is hands-free, autosteer is not. Ford has an equivalent of autosteer available without a subscription, I would guess GM does too.
reply▲In light of recent trends, Tesla is signaling supreme confidence in its prospects by already pursuing enshittification.
reply▲adamkittelson1 hour ago
[-] They’ve been enshittifying for the better part of a decade. The model 3 launching without rain sensors and taking years to get any where near comparable with cameras comes to mind.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] It still is not anywhere close with cameras. My guess is that it will not ever get better than it is today.
reply▲Elon has been posting everyday about how awesome FSD is, interspersed with fearmongering about how white people will disappear, how “white culture” is at risk, and the need for remigration / ethnic cleansing to take back our country. It’s hard to take technical claims about FSD seriously when these other posts are completely deranged.
But some claims he makes seem like they’re plain factual. For example he’s claiming that Robotaxi rides in Austin don’t have human supervision now (https://xcancel.com/elonmusk/status/2014397578352226423). Is that true or is it that they’re just remotely monitoring them instead of sitting in the car?
Elon also retweeted Bloomberg’s fawning review of how perfect FSD is (https://xcancel.com/SawyerMerritt/status/2014721293950590985), but I also see lots of people saying FSD is far less reliable than something like Waymo, and that intervention is frequently needed. To me it seems like all of a sudden, when it became obvious that Waymo is far ahead and Tesla’s stock is overvalued and China’s FSD competitors have caught up, there has been a push to say FSD is ready to be on streets just like Waymo.
Is this just a dangerous experiment on the public? Or has it actually improved in some way? Have they said what specific software improvements they built to make it ready for the public?
reply▲> Is this just a dangerous experiment on the public? Or has it actually improved in some way?
Who is to say anyway? I don't trust Chinese company claims any more than I do Tesla's. Probably less because in America so many folks dislike Elon that even sometimes the negatives are blown out of proportion and are much more widely reported on.
Waymo's claims I trust a little bit more because they're often operated in extremely limited circumstances (why not just take a bus or walk or something), with supervision, and because I've heard of a number of bizarre incidents.
All of these tools and technologies are of moderate utility - if you're going to drive it's probably eventually going to be safer for most people (most of whom are exceptionally poor drivers) to just let the car drive. But if you remove the need for hopping in a car to go to Costco to get a jug of milk and instead allow people to just walk down the street a little ways you realize that these are just additive technologies.
If we built cities properly we wouldn't need to spend $50,000 on a car, plus maintenance and insurance, and now a $99.99 starting subscription which, will probably become mandatory at some point for insurance purposes, just to participate in daily life. That's not to say there's anything wrong with cars, I have one, a Tesla in fact, but requiring a car for existence leaves us all poorer and worse off.
reply▲Politics aside, FSD is quite awesome these days. It’s pretty much at “press a button and enjoy the ride” capability, although you do have to make a show of paying attention to the road. My truck came with lifetime FSD which I’m happy with, and two family members pay for the monthly subscription because of the quality of life improvement.
reply▲Would you take a nap in the backseat while you ride? How much more improvement do you think it would need before you'd be willing to do that?
reply▲This is part of the long con. They promised FSD almost a decade ago and as their competitors eclipse them, it's clear Tesla is a) behind and b) will never catch up.
So instead of admitting they were wrong all along and doing what's necessary to catch up (add LiDAR to their sensor stack), they are going to quietly "pivot" Tesla to a "ai and robotics" company, with the monthly fee they'll continue to bilk anyone who is still enthralled enough to believe them on their FSD grift, but they will run the same scam as they did with FSD (Musk will say "humanoid robots for the home in in 3 years", yet we will still be waiting for them to be useful in the year 2035)
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] I'm not any kind of Elon fan, but I think it is a little more nuanced than that. FSD is definitely more advanced than any regular competition. It is not as capable as Waymo, that is for sure, but that is not a car you can own.
reply▲Apart from the technical limitations of FSD, Elon hasn't thought through the business model. Claiming that Tesla cars will be capable of turning into robotaxis seemed plausible a decade ago before all the negative externalities of Airbnb became widely known.
Waymo isn't just the Waymo Driver technology and sensor suite. It's charging and cleaning depots. It's product support both for the customer and the vehicle that scales. It's an insane amount of LiDAR acquired 3-D mapping data, plus real time data from Google maps and navigation.
Meanwhile Tesla has replaced some of the drivers sitting in the front seat with chase cars. Just to make the technically correct claim that the cars are no longer supervised by someone in the car.
reply▲Their vision-only system will never live up to promises without inventing an AGI-level inference engine. Maintaining an aura that they are capable of doing this is part of the con. A kind of, shangri-la promise of harmonious one-true vision system that to date has not come true despite promises of its impending coming.
reply▲$99/month plus tax is a pretty fucking steep price for any kind of subscription! Holy cow!
reply▲I sign up if I want to do a long road trip and cancel after. Worked great for that.
reply▲If you have do a lot of driving, $99/mo. seems like a decent price to have the car drive itself, especially if it got to the Waymo point where absolutely no driver attention was needed and you could watch Netflix the whole time. The issue with FSD isn't the price, it's that no matter what Elon and his fanboys say, it doesn't bloody work and Waymo is blowing them out of the water in capability.
reply▲eldaisfish31 minutes ago
[-] The “if” here is lifting many metric tonnes of assumptions.
reply▲gambiting52 minutes ago
[-] The real question is why buys Teslas now, given that their owner is a proven fascist showing nazi salutes on stage. Do you have to say "sieg heil" to start it too?
reply▲weirdmantis6945 minutes ago
[-] good little sheeple.
reply▲gambiting19 minutes ago
[-] The people who buy teslas without looking at anything about the person who runs the company behind them?
reply▲Elon Musk wants you to pay for something which might kill you or someone else, all while not accepting any liability. So you still have to do the work, but with added danger. This guy is delusional.
reply▲"Who is more foolish? The fool or the fool who follows him?" - Obi Wan Kenobi
- George Lucas
reply▲I'm going to go with the fool being followed. At least the following fool realizes that they need guidance, but just chose the wrong leader.
reply▲This sounds like almost every other product I buy, except it's designed to eventually save a lot of lives? Imagine being mad that a kitchen knife has no liability for what you do with it, or a motorcycle.
reply▲Imagine if professional medical equipment designed to save lives had no liability clauses?
Except they do.
Which is why there's FDA certification and regulation and the Lifepak 15s I used as a paramedic cost around $40,000.
Mercedes was also willing to put their money where their mouth was and accept liability for vehicle software issues. (Cue here the Tesla stans talking about "how limited" that was. Almost perhaps as if it was for a good reason and not "if it compiles, ship it").
reply▲It sounds like the point you're making is that manufacturers taking liability will make all of this unaffordable for normal people, similar to how medicine has become unaffordable?
I don't think that's actually your point, but it sort of sounds like it.
reply▲FireBeyond58 minutes ago
[-] There are probably elements of that but my read of the post I replied to was "why on earth would you expect manufacturers of equipment to accept liability for misuse?" (I actually agree about misuse, but malfunction is not the same.)
And "in the context of something that is designed to save lives"... well, absolutely, many manufacturers do and will and even "have to".
reply▲Taycan Turbo GT mogs any Plaid cult member.
reply▲I don't see what the issue is. No one is forced to buy a tesla, no pay for the subscription. It seems likely that self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years, it's not like it's 0 cost to them to develop and distribute the software.
I'm not a Tesla fan, I will never own a fully self driving car, but I don't have a problem with a company charging money for features that consumers want. There are about a dozen other car manufacturers in the US alone that can sell self driving cars without a subscription if they want to.
reply▲rootusrootus1 hour ago
[-] > self-driving features will require ongoing maintenance and updates for the next several years
Autopilot is not self-driving, it is lane-centering with traffic aware cruise control. It has not gotten any maintenance or updates in years, as far as we can tell.
Identical functionality is available from many competitors with no subscription. This is a noteworthy decision for Tesla because AP has long been one of their defining features, dropping it is a big step backward just as the market caught up.
reply▲linuxftw30 minutes ago
[-] Well, the market will decide if dropping it in favor of a subscription-based upgrade is worth it or not. Not sure why anyone would be upset, this all seems perfectly reasonable.
reply▲cosmicgadget47 minutes ago
[-] They are taking away a standard feature for most modern cars as a sad way to push more people into their shitty CaaS model.
Nobody is forced to buy a Tesla, correct, but that isn't a requirement for newsworthiness.
reply▲lisp224045 minutes ago
[-] All Teslas should be banned. This has gone on long enough.
reply▲testing223211 hour ago
[-] Somewhat related, there are now robotaxis giving rides to customers in Austin with no driver, and no safety monitor inside at all.
Progress, for sure.
reply▲There's no monitor in the car. But there is a chase car with a monitor in it. Technically correct is the best kind isn't it?
reply▲Waymo's been in Austin for a while! Seeing them on MOPAC, when I don't think they're supposed to be on the highway, is always charming.
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