The passive in English (2011)
16 points
4 days ago
| 6 comments
| languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu
| HN
tptacek
1 hour ago
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A quick fun thing you can do in response to that first graf is to ask Claude or GPT5 to quiz you.

I got:

* The report was written yesterday.

* The committee approved the proposal.

* The door was open when I arrived.

* The window was broken during the storm.

* The window was broken when we bought the house.

* Mistakes were made.

* The system is designed to fail safely.

* The results are surprising.

* The patient was examined and released.

* The data suggests the model was trained improperly.

* There were several errors identified in the report.

* The system appears to have been compromised.

I got two of them wrong, though I think "partially passive" is a total cop-out.

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cyberax
59 minutes ago
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> * The window was broken during the storm.

I just realized that there's a delightful bit of ambiguity here.

Was the window damaged during the storm (and so the water got onto the carpet), or was the window damaged _by_ the storm?

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tptacek
57 minutes ago
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I got this right, but led off with "it's a perfectly good sentence".
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thcipriani
2 hours ago
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> English has a contrast between kinds of clause in which one kind has the standard correspondence between grammatical subject and semantic roles (when a verb denotes an action, the subject standardly corresponds to the agent), and the other switches those roles around.

I've tried to read this sentence so many times. That parenthetical is a doozy.

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yongjik
1 hour ago
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The sentence isn't that unnatural when you realize that it's full of standard linguistic terms, such as "clause", "subject", "semantic roles", "action", and "agent".

Pick a random sentence from discussion on tax laws or building an npm package, and they will sound just as ridiculous (or even pompous) to outsiders.

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Throaway1982
2 hours ago
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should be phrased "when a verb denotes an action, the standard is for the subject to correspond to the agent"
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thcipriani
1 hour ago
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I've also been pondering the two uses of the word "roles" in this sentence. This sentence is the world's best sentence.
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arduanika
1 hour ago
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In layman's terms, he's saying, "I am very smart and George Orwell is a blowhard." You can decide for yourself which author you'd rather read.
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helicalspiral
1 hour ago
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the author is linguist using linguistic terms
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arduanika
1 hour ago
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Yes, a linguist. All the more reason why he ought to know how to construct a sentence clearly.
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jkingsbery
2 hours ago
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The examples in the first paragraph, while not grammatically passive, are functionally passive. They would be stronger in most cases if the author wrote them with the actor as the subject. For example, yes "the bus blew up" is active, but does not answer who acted on the bus.

Being so pedantic, and then saying "but I'm not going to use the technical term voice" is particularly off-putting. If this is an article about grammatical pedentry, let's go all the way. Otherwise, the author should focus on providing useful advice.

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Sharlin
1 hour ago
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The phrasal verb "blow up" can be either transitive or intransitive.

"The bus blew up" is a perfectly active clause. "The bus" is the subject, it did its own blowing-up.

"The bus was blown up" is a passive clause. "The bus" is the object, some unnamed entity acted on the bus.

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wrqvrwvq
56 minutes ago
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For completeness, the transitive active might be "The terrorist blew up the bus". In the intransitive case you can infer the reflexive case (agent acting upon itself), "The bus blew itself up". Some languages have a formal "middle voice" for reflexion.

English lacks a formal middle and there is a good deal of established literature on verbal aspects where the subject is not really the agent called "ergative".

There is utility in comparing "the bus exploded", perhaps unclear as to the agent, but language is not an agent game. It's trying to convey information, which is clear enough in these cases.

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tptacek
54 minutes ago
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I like "the bus blew up the terrorist" as a clearer illustration. :P
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direwolf20
1 hour ago
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grammatically active, functionally passive, exactly as GP said
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yongjik
1 hour ago
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The whole point of the article is that there's no such thing like "functionally passive" and people will invariably twist themselves into knots if they actually try to give it a, let's say, functional definition.

You could simply say "You must be clear who did what" and it would be as good an advice as any, but people have to shove in "passive" into the advice, which serves no purpose and just makes things more confusing.

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helicalspiral
1 hour ago
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The author is a linguist where passive has a technical definition and implicitly wishes that people would use some other word for what they have an issue with.
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tptacek
1 hour ago
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How is it even functionally passive?
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direwolf20
1 hour ago
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It doesn't tell you who blew up the bus
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tptacek
1 hour ago
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The volcano erupted.

Is that passive?

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direwolf20
1 hour ago
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No, the volcano caused the eruption. Who caused the bus explosion? You are fixated on the grammatical parse tree instead of the reality conveyed by the grammar, what happened in the universe and what information is conveyed.
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tptacek
1 hour ago
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Maybe this is just the programmer in me but it really feels like the difference between an abstract syntax tree and an IR is apposite here. You're evaluating at the wrong level. But also: who's to say the bus didn't decide to blow up all by itself? The bus can be the agent, the same way the volcano is.

If you think that couldn't happen, you never rode in my 2011 Audi A6 that blew up on the Ike, and that I parked in a CPD parking lot, flames jumping out from under the hood, and walked away from like a fucking Batman villain, clicking the key fob just to hear it go "beep-boop-beep" one last time.

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helicalspiral
1 hour ago
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the article is literally going through the technical definition of passive voice
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arduanika
1 hour ago
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Sure, but he is packaging it in this superior snark. He is aggressively dismissing the very real thing that people actually mean when they say "avoid passive voice". A technical explainer on its own would be fine, but at least to my ears, this piece reads as narrow-minded and bitter.
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tptacek
1 hour ago
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Their snark sounds superior because they are superior. It's Language Log.
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arduanika
47 minutes ago
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Huh, I don't know much about this site. Maybe I should. From reading up on the author, it looks like this is where they invented the term "snowclone", which is pretty cool I guess.

But this particular article rubs me the wrong way, for whatever reason. It just seems to miss the point.

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tptacek
45 minutes ago
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Hugely influential. The original and ur-English language linguistics site. Geoffrey Pullum & co.

Click around, you're in for a treat.

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cyberax
1 hour ago
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Interesting parallels with other languages:

1. Slavic languages have several ways to construct "impersonal sentences" that can be used to describe the results of actions or being in a certain state without mentioning the actors. They sound completely natural and are used in common spoken speech.

2. Passive does sound more complicated and marked in English. Descriptions often need to use either passive voice or "fake" subjects (e.g.: "It was raining").

2. In Chinese, true passive voice ("被/叫/...") is extremely uncommon and is used mostly for negative things like "was hit by a car". Some linguists even call it an "adversity marker". And for neutral things like "The package was delivered yesterday" typical constructions look more like "The package is yesterday-delivered", with the "yesterday-delivered" construction acting almost like an adjective.

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helicalspiral
17 minutes ago
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FWIW, the passive voice is completely natural in spoken English. Otherwise, you wouldn't have admonishments against it in style guides and English teachers wouldn't be slicing through instances of it with a red pen (or modern equivalent).
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arduanika
2 hours ago
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This was clearly written by a pedant of the worst kind, boasting of how great he and his friends are at "mocking people who denigrate the passive without being able to identify it".

It is understood by basically everybody that there are two different things meant by passive vs. active: on one hand, the technical grammatical distinction, and on the other, the broader spirit of the phrase. Edge cases are very easy to construct: passive clauses where the agency is well-identified, and active clauses where responsibility is totally diffuse. This technical clarification is needed by nobody, because a rule-of-thumb like "avoid passive voice" is meant to be used holistically, not literally.

At the end, a parting shot is fired at George Orwell and E.B. White. Naturally, the superior intellect of the author of TFA is driven home.

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helicalspiral
2 hours ago
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Uh I mean he's a linguistics professor. People are misusing "passive voice" when describing something they don't like and of course the linguist is going to get ornery about it. If you have something against clauses with diffuse agency say that- don't put the blame squarely on passive voice.
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direwolf20
2 hours ago
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The most important thing about the passive voice is that you can avoid saying who did something.

The headlines read "Hamas terrorists fire rockets at Israel, killing tens" and the other headlines read "Missiles were shot at Gaza" and "Thousands of Palestinians were killed" [corrected]. Who did that? Nobody knows!

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throwgrammar
56 minutes ago
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Are you saying that the Jews are behind the passive voice?
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Sharlin
1 hour ago
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Um, there's no passive in "thousands of Palestinians die".

"Thousands of Palestinians killed" is in passive. "Rockets were fired at Israel" would be as well.

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