Hypergrowth isn’t always easy
91 points
2 days ago
| 7 comments
| tailscale.com
| HN
flkiwi
11 minutes ago
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Interesting post. I appreciate their candor and self-criticism, but, as a customer, I'm consistently surprised by how robust Tailscale ends up being, and how rarely I've experienced an issue that actually broke my tailnet. The sort of downtime that might keep me from accessing the admin tool or something else like that is rare enough, but my nodes have almost (?) never failed to talk to each other. Pretty great.

Caveat: I have a very small tailnet (<100 nodes). Anyone running with thousands of nodes may have a very different experience where inconvenience might be existential.

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rapnie
2 hours ago
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In addition hypergrowth isn't needed. Grow naturally and healthy or just be sustainable, that's okay too.
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internetter
1 hour ago
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Hypergrowth can be natural. Random example but what if you designed a microblogging service and all of the sudden the biggest platform gets bought by a facist and users come flocking? You could start turning users away or you could work as fast as you can to accommodate them and make small mistakes along the way. Both of these are reasonable decisions and neither one is really wrong.
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ljm
33 minutes ago
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That's demand driven and organic, at least, and it's not the first thing that comes to mind with hypergrowth, it's just scale.

Instead, I think of hypergrowth as a supply-side attempt to capture a larger market in a highly inorganic way and to also capture the absurdly high valuation that comes with it. Usually through VC.

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internetter
23 minutes ago
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I think what you are referring to is the economical model of growth at all costs (for this I use the term blitzscaling)

I think of hyperscaling as more like growth faster than what the team can manage, for any reason.

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Traubenfuchs
2 hours ago
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> just be sustainable, that's okay too

Not if most of your company was built on investor money.

They want their pay day!

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rootnod3
1 hour ago
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I think part of "grow naturally" assumed no investors. Just be self-sustaining with maybe some extra.
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1dom
4 hours ago
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No issues using headscale and selfhosted derp servers.

Tailscale is great technology and protocol and facilitates decentralisation.

Hypergrowth is a synonym for unsustainable growth. The headline here is business breaks tech, again.

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crazygringo
57 minutes ago
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> Hypergrowth is a synonym for unsustainable growth.

No it's not. It's often a recognition that just one or two, maybe three companies will end up dominating a particular market simply due to economies of scale and network effects... and so the choice is between hypergrowth to try to attain/keep the #1 or #2 position, or else go out of business and lose all the time, money, and effort you already put into it.

Nothing whatsoever makes it unsustainable. You might be offering cheaper prices during hypergrowth -- those are unsustainable -- but then you raise prices back to sustainable levels afterwards. And consumers got to benefit from the subsidized prices, yay! The business is entirely sustainable, however.

Uber is the poster child of hypergrowth. They became profitable in 2023. And their stock price has ~doubled since. Totally sustainable.

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cael450
1 hour ago
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> Hypergrowth is a synonym for unsustainable growth. The headline here is business breaks tech, again.

That just isn't true. Plenty of services do just fine after experiencing hypergrowth, and a few outages are not an example of tech breaking. That's a fairly common occurrence.

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elashri
4 hours ago
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How do you selfhost your own derp servers? I am curious if it is an easy like headscale itself
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bayindirh
3 hours ago
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The last time I looked (i.e. A couple of days ago), the documents sounded like Headscale now supports DERP [0].

[0]: https://headscale.net/stable/setup/requirements/#ports-in-us...

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clayhacks
1 hour ago
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It’s not super well fleshed out by Tailscale but they have a guide.

https://tailscale.com/kb/1118/custom-derp-servers

My last company ran our own DERP servers to have more consistent endpoints we controlled

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1dom
3 hours ago
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I use the built in derp server. I have run a standalone derp server hackily deployed for a month, it worked fine but didn't provide much benefit over the built in one. It was basically just a go package. If you're familiar with running Go code, it's straight forward to run, it's very, very light/unproductionised.

I have a todo task to integrate derp into my headscale deployment properly ("finish ansible role"), but when I picked it up last month, I noticed tailscale had release relay nodes, and they seem like they'd be better suited than dedicated derp nodes, but headscale hasn't implemented support for them yet.

tldr: not to hard to host DERP, just needs publicly facing endpoint (incl. letsencrypt) but the built in one is fine. But relay nodes look like they'll be a better option for most and I'd guess will be implemented in headscale sometime this year.

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AndrewKemendo
3 hours ago
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Tech is simply the reproductive organs for capitalism

So, things are working as designed for the few people that benefit

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BiraIgnacio
5 minutes ago
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hypergrowth is very hard. First to be able to get there and then, once there, to keep up offering quality services.
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holistio
5 hours ago
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Why is the cover image for the post a cartoon 69 position?
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krtkush
4 hours ago
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It is not a cartoon, it is an interpretation of the position in Bauhaus style.
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beanjuiceII
3 hours ago
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maybe BauHaus style is cartoony
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oh_my_goodness
5 hours ago
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A little reward for anyone who was affected by the outage?
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stronglikedan
3 hours ago
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Why isn't every cover image a cartoon 69 position?
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the__alchemist
4 hours ago
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TailScale is a VPN, and the article highlights a recent increase in user base. This is likely due to VPNs being required to access pornographic materials for residents of many US states.
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easton
3 hours ago
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Notably, it's a VPN for connecting your own devices together, so unless you're deploying a server elsewhere for access to porn it's probably not for that.
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arccy
2 hours ago
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you can pay for the mullvad add-on to use their exit nodes
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direwolf20
1 hour ago
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You can also just use Mullvad
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InsideOutSanta
2 hours ago
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It could also be that Tailscale users have many kids, who then also use Tailscale. Although if the header is meant to represent that, it's showing the wrong position.
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SideburnsOfDoom
3 hours ago
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> This is likely due to VPNs being required to access pornographic materials for residents of many US states.

Same in the UK, recently.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cvg5er4ewg6o

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kubelsmieci
2 hours ago
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Cannot unsee :)
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drcongo
4 hours ago
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Took me a moment, but now I can't not see it.
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John23832
3 hours ago
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I mean... shows where your head is at? Lol.
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heliumtera
3 hours ago
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420 is very controversial so what choice do you really have this days
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joe_mamba
2 hours ago
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That's the weed number
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heyitsmedotjayb
3 hours ago
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Not my deviantart ass thinking hypergrowth meant something else
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neom
2 hours ago
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Would you mind explaining this comment? (I worked on deviantart for many years when it started so I'm curious, tho the servers did literally melt at one point)
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evan_
1 hour ago
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the joke is porn

a specific type of porn

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fragmede
2 hours ago
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That sounds like quite the story.
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neom
2 hours ago
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pack considerably more spinning disks bought off the shelf at radioshack than you ever reasonably should in a box in a colo, turns out they generate a lot of heat, I don't recall the year I'd guess around 2004/5-ish - was a big problem, site was down for quite some time. Same year someone found out who one of our mods was and showed up to their house with a gun. Ask me about hypergrowth, I'm not sure if the DeviantART stories or the DigitalOcean stories are more wild. heh. :)
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wolttam
2 hours ago
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Kind of annoying to read. No, the P in CAP theorem isn’t when the client can’t connect to your unavailable service. That would be the A. Maybe it was down because of a P on your side, but don’t start blaming your downtime on network partitions between the client and your service.

Edit: your service going down and not being able to take requests from clients does not a network partition make

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deep_u
1 hour ago
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This is a common misunderstanding about the poorly named ‘Availability’ in CAP. Availability under CAP means that if your request reaches a non-failing node, that node still responds despite being unable to communicate with other nodes. This is distinct from SLA-style availability, which describes the uptime of the overall system. I’m pretty sure the partition tolerance they’re referring to is the fact that the tailnet remains intact and continues to operate even when nodes can’t reach the coordination service.
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direwolf20
1 hour ago
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A network partition between the client and server is a network partition between two nodes in a distributed system, which is the P.
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wolttam
1 hour ago
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If there was a network partition, but it sounded like their service just went down.
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