ICE seeks industry input on ad tech location data for investigative use
106 points
1 hour ago
| 11 comments
| biometricupdate.com
| HN
doctoboggan
1 hour ago
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Hopefully this is a wakeup call to the software engineers and other employees at those companies - it's no longer a hypothetical future where the tools you are building might be abused, it's today.
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tokyobreakfast
1 hour ago
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But those tools buy Teslas and $8 donuts and cardboard apartments in trendy neighborhoods for people too young to understand how money works.
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badbird3
58 minutes ago
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Quite the high horse you got there
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fainpul
2 minutes ago
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> at those companies

If you work at an adtech company, you're a douchebag by (my) definition.

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hsbauauvhabzb
56 minutes ago
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It’s worth pointing out that a non-insignificant subset of tech workers know the impacts and still don’t give a fuck though.
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SpicyLemonZest
6 minutes ago
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Is it worth pointing out? It seems counterproductive to respond to a call to action by sarcastically complaining about the people being called to action.
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hsbauauvhabzb
22 minutes ago
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@anoym - There isn’t something inherently bad about working for law enforcement or national security agencies as long as what you’re doing cannot be used now or in the future unethically. But too be honest I think this is a ‘don’t hate the player’ type things, if palantir didn’t exist, another company would take its place - privacy legislation is the only thing that prevents it, not relying on ethics of the masses.
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IhateAI
11 minutes ago
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All Law enforcement and Nat Sec of the United States is inherently unethical, or at minimum tied to ethically questionabke tactics. We have the highest incarceration rates in the world, death penalties ect. Our Military isnt exactly ethical in its missions, pretty much since WW2

You're basically saying "There isnt anything inherently wrong about working for the 4th Reich"

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anonym29
26 minutes ago
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A lot of them are even proud of being the loyal partners of the US intelligence community, which includes DHS and ICE.
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hikkerl
1 hour ago
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Would you also consider it to be abuse if such tools were used to identify, locate, and apprehend perpetrators of less-controversial crimes (assault, pedophilia, theft, murder)?
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int0x29
44 minutes ago
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Get a warrant. The federal government should not be "soliciting vendors" for my location.

I love how the accounts defending ICE are always brand new.

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sham1
51 minutes ago
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I'm not the poster you replied to, but absolutely. Now personally I don't believe that this data should exist in the first place, but using it for law enforcement purposes is just very shilling and even worse than its "normal" use. I would think that someone with a fresh burner account would agree.
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hsbauauvhabzb
57 minutes ago
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That implies a crime was committed. I think you’ll find people on HN fairly unsupportive of population wide surveillance. Getting a warrant from a judge is far better than ICE doing what they’re currently doing.
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tokyobreakfast
49 minutes ago
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Unless of course that population wide surveillance pays $150k+/yr, with unlimited free snacks and gym membership, then all bets are off.
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stephantul
52 minutes ago
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This has bean a long time coming. This is a stark reminder that you should consider who the future stewards of whatever you are building might be.

We built a vast surveillance network under the guise of servings ads and making money, and lost track of how this power could be abused by an entity not aligned with our own values.

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ianbutler
41 minutes ago
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Don't lump me in that "we". I did no such thing. I know exactly how it could be abused and have spent 12 years intentionally not working for companies that perpetuate it.
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stephantul
22 minutes ago
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Well I guess I mean the pubic in general. I also don’t necessarily mean willfully creating technology that can be abused.

For example, we all stood by when we let Twitter and other US-based social media become the main way politicians communicate with the public. This has, in my opinion, had disastrous consequences on how they communicate and actively blocks politicians from achieving consensus.

This is to say that you don’t need to have actively worked on something.

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ianbutler
2 minutes ago
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I think that expecting the public to reason through the myriad n-order effects that were going to happen from the whiplash of technology in the last 30 years is a little much.

However, I think a lot of people in tech could and did see those consequences coming and were pretty vocal about it. So, I don't think we all did stand by, we exercised what limited power we had. I don't want to seem accusatory here and I don't mean it harshly, but maybe you just didn't see the folks who have talked about problems like this.

We also as individuals [without billions] have fairly limited capacity to directly act against these things. I donate a fair bit to the EFF for instance and I've sent outreach to representatives multiple times over the years for specific bills and when its possible I vote against surveillance.

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IhateAI
8 minutes ago
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It was always intended to be used that way, the programmatic advertising industry is a product of US Nat Sec.
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bilekas
16 minutes ago
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> Against that backdrop, ICE’s assertion that it is considering privacy expectations appears designed to reassure both policymakers and potential vendors that the agency is aware of the controversy surrounding commercial surveillance data.

We can't seriously believe that this agency has any sense of respect for privacy right? They literally are going around thinking they don't need judicial warrants. I mean nobody's going to stop them using the purchased data however they want, but don't lie and say you'll be good with the privacy and care of the data.

https://apnews.com/article/ice-arrests-warrants-minneapolis-...

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trhway
13 minutes ago
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>They literally are going around thinking they don't need judicial warrants.

Noem at the Senate hearing : "Well, habeas corpus is a constitutional right that the president has to be able to remove people from this country, and suspend their right to ..."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46832512

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whatever1
15 minutes ago
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It’s quite obvious that all of these seemingly paranoid about privacy, were not that paranoid after all.

For the software builders the conclusion is that we should not store ANY identifiable data.

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Apreche
1 hour ago
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This is why you must block all ads always. No exceptions.
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Larrikin
15 minutes ago
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Do one better, block ads and give them false data on your profile using a solution like Ad Nauseam.
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YetAnotherNick
1 hour ago
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It's not about blocking ads, but blocking tracking. If you connect to internet you are being tracked even though you block known tracking URLs.

e.g. Hacker news uses no tracking url but uses Cloudflare which tracks the user across sites for things like bot detection.

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anonym29
21 minutes ago
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drivingmenuts
15 minutes ago
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They’re going from Brownshirt to Gestap to Stasi overnight.
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Refreeze5224
1 hour ago
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If you want to target a demographic, ask the experts.
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trhway
57 minutes ago
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ICE got additional $80B over next 4 years in addition to the standard appropriations resulting in $28B budget for example in this year. That definitely gonna buy a lot of “market research”.
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anonym29
10 minutes ago
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Don't forget - Microsoft, Google, Apple, Amazon, Oracle, etc are all proud partners of the US intelligence community, which includes DHS and ICE. When the NSA asked these companies to participate in an unconstitutional and unlawful program (as ruled by a federal judge) called PRISM, they didn't fight, they eagerly complied. They kept their compliance secret. They lied about it to citizens, to their users, to their customers, and even to congress. These are fundamentally untrustworthy entities, and there's no reason to believe they've changed and won't comply with secret DHS and ICE requests just like they did with secret NSA requests.

Every dollar spent on AWS, Azure, GCP, Oracle Cloud, iPhones, Macbooks, Windows, Office, etc supports the widespread violation of rights committed against the innocent of all political and demographic backgrounds in the name of "national security".

Know what doesn't? Open source operating systems, open source software, and self-hosting. Do the right thing, ditch the modern day equivalents of IBM collaborating with the enemies of freedom, human dignity, and human prosperity.

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tokyobreakfast
1 hour ago
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This must be a real conundrum for the surveillance capitalist weekend 'resisters' who created this technology in the first place. "Oh, but it's not evil when we use it."
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kybernetyk
1 hour ago
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"It's my job - I just followed orders"
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usernomdeguerre
1 hour ago
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> ICE says it is attempting to better understand how commercial big data providers and advertising technology firms might directly support investigative activities, while remaining sensitive to “regulatory constraints and privacy expectations.”

That's rich and i'll believe it when they respect the written law.

To be clear, I fully expect other departments have been investigating these sorts of things in past and present, but ice have conducted themselves differently now and should be treated accordingly.

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