No Coding Before 10am
44 points
2 hours ago
| 19 comments
| michaelxbloch.substack.com
| HN
gchadwick
32 minutes ago
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Anyone else find reading things like this slightly exhausting?

I'm very much pro AI for coding there are clearly significant capabilities there but I'm still getting my head around how to best utilise it.

Posts like these make it sound like ruthlessly optimizing your workflow letting no possible efficiency go every single day is the only way to work now. This has always been possible and generally not a good idea to focus on exclusively. There's always been processes to optimise and automate and always a balance as to which to pursue.

Personally I am incorporating AI into my daily work but not getting too bogged down by it. I read about some of the latest ideas and techniques and choose carefully which I employ. Sometimes I'll try and AI workflow and then abandon it. I recently connected Claude up to draw.io with an MCP, it had some good capabilities but for the specific task I wanted it wasn't really getting it so doing it manually was the better choice to achieve what I wanted in good time.

The models themselves and coding harnesses are also evolving quickly complex workflows people may put together can quickly become pointless.

More haste, less speed as they say!

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yomismoaqui
1 minute ago
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Don't worry so much about spee. Some people obsess over it and don't realize they are running in the wrong direction.
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PunchyHamster
18 minutes ago
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Nope, but I do find it revolting.
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malux85
10 minutes ago
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I know people like this, theres a form of procrastination where they are busy hyperoptimising their todo lists and workflows but getting only a tiny amount of actual work done. It's a form of the disconnected intellect - they can tell you the problem, they can even tell you the solution, but they can't turn that knowledge into action. Convincing themselves that utterly trivial inconveniences are so productivity and or psychologically harmful they can they can then rationalize all this "meta-work" while simultaneously claiming to be virtuous, when in reality it's usually insecurity in their abilities or cowardice to face the unknown, preventing them doing real work
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etamponi
4 minutes ago
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It blows my mind how these posts seem like everyone is victim of a collective amnesia.

Literally every single point in the article was good engineering practice way before AI. So it's either amnesia or simple ignorance.

In particular, "No coding before 10am" is worded a bit awkward, as it simply means "think before you write code", which... Does it need an article for saying it?

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tjansen
1 hour ago
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"Agents should work overnight, on commutes, in meetings, asynchronously."

If I read stuff like that, I wonder what the F they are doing. Agents work overnight? On what? Stuck in some loop, trying to figure out how to solve a bug by trial and error because the agent isn't capable of finding the right solution? Nothing good will come out of that. When the agent clearly isn't capable of solving an issue in a reasonable amount of time, it needs help. Quite often, a hint is enough. That, of course, requires the developer to still understand what the agent is doing. Otherwise, most likely, it will sooner or later do something stupid to "solve" the issue. And later, you need to clean up that mess.

If your prompt is good and the agent is capable of implementing it correctly, it will be done in 10 minutes or less. If not, you still need to step in.

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tomwojcik
36 minutes ago
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Everyone here (including me) agrees on how dumb this idea is, yet I know C level people who would love it.

I wonder how our comments will age in a few years.

Edit: to add

> Review the output, not the code. Don't read every line an agent writes

This can't be a serious project. It must be a greenfield startup that's just starting.

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Kiro
6 minutes ago
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> I wonder how our comments will age in a few years.

Badly. While I wouldn't assign a task to an LLM that requires such a long running time right now (for many reasons: control, cost etc) I am fully aware that it might eventually be something I do. Especially considering how fast I went from tab completion to whole functions to having LLMs write most of the code.

My competition right now is probably the grifters and hustlers already doing this, and not the software engineers that "know better". Laughing at the inevitable security disasters and other vibe coded fiascos while back-patting each other is funny but missing the forest for the trees.

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jeroenhd
1 minute ago
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I can think of one reason for letting agents run overnight: running large models locally is incredibly slow or incredibly expensive. Even more so with he recent RAM price spikes thanks to the AI bubble. Running AI overnight can be a decent solution to solve complex prompts without being dependent on the cloud.

This approach breaks the moment you need to provide any form of feedback, of course.

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charcircuit
25 minutes ago
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10 minute is not the limit for current models. I can have them work for hours on a problem.

Humans are not the only thing initiating prompts either. Exceptions and crashes coming in from production trigger agentic workflows to work on fixes. These can happen autonomously over night, 24/7.

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rutierut
44 minutes ago
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To be fair, for major features 30m to an hour isn’t out of this world. Browser testing is critical at this point but it _really_ slows down the AI in the last 15% of the process.

I can see overnight for a prototype of a completely new project with a detailed SPEC.md and a project requirements file that it eats up as it goes.

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llbbdd
50 minutes ago
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Yeah if you have agents running overnight you're probably stupid
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jddj
1 hour ago
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> Don’t spec the process, spec the outcome.

For this, which summarises vibe coding and hence the rest of the article, the models aren't good enough yet for novel applications.

With current models and assuming your engineers are of a reasonable level of experience, for now it seems to result in either greatly reduced velocity and higher costs, or worse outcomes.

One course correction in terms of planned process, because the model missed an obvious implication or statement, can save days of churning.

The math only really has a chance to work if you reduce your spend on in-house talent to compensate, and your product sits on a well-trodden path.

In terms of capability we're still at "could you easily outsource this particular project, low touch, to your typical software farm?"

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meindnoch
40 minutes ago
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Is this what LLM-induced brain damage looks like? I think it is.
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twic
27 minutes ago
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Oh, I also have a rule of not coding before 10 am, but that's because I'm drinking tea and thinking.
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PunchyHamster
17 minutes ago
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I thought that what article would be. Instead I got article going "we're dumber than Artificial Intern we hired, let's just be their secretary"
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sfa_aok
26 minutes ago
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So if you specify work the right way, you can move at incredible velocity. If you have the confidence in your setup and ways of working, you don’t need to look at the code being put out.

Genuinely seeking answers on the following - if you’re working that way, what are you “understanding” about what’s being produced? Are you monitoring for signal that points out gaps in your spec which you update; code base is updated, bugs are fixed and the show goes on? What insights can you bring to how the code base works in reality?

Not a sceptic, but thinking this stuff through ain’t easy!

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wesselbindt
1 hour ago
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> If 10x more tokens saves a day, spend the tokens. The bottleneck is human decision-making time, not compute cost.

This seems entirely backwards. Why spend money to optimize something that _isn't_ the bottleneck?

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swiftcoder
1 hour ago
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I think I finally understand why the LLM craze is like catnip to management types - they think they've found a cheat code to workaround the mythical man-month
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walterbell
1 hour ago
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https://x.com/a16z/status/2018418113952555445

  For my whole life in technology, there was this thing called the Mythical Man Month: nine women cannot have a baby in a month. If you're Google, you can't just put a thousand software engineers on a product and wipe out a startup because you can only... build that product with seven or eight people. Once they've figured it out, they've got that lead.

  That's not true with AI. If you have data and you have enough GPUs, you can solve almost any problem. It is magic. You can throw money at the problem. We've never had that in tech.
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JimDabell
29 minutes ago
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The day being referred to is the human’s time, not the AI’s time. That sentence is saying substitute the cheap, abundant resource for the expensive, bottlenecked resource.
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Cyphase
1 hour ago
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Maybe it could have been written slightly clearer, but I think the intended meaning is, "If 10x more tokens saves a day, spend the tokens. The bottleneck should be human decision-making time, not agent compute time."
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gozzoo
1 hour ago
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I'm not sure I agree with this. 10x more tokens means leaaving the agent to work for 10x longer, which may lead to bugs and misintepretation of the intention. Breaking the goal into multiple tasks seems more efficient in terms of tokens and getting close to the desired goal. Of course this means more human involvment, but probably not 10x more.
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Towaway69
1 hour ago
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Any human in the loop will be a bottleneck in comparison to AI performance.

If we take that to its logical conclusion, I think we can answer that question.

Getting rid of humans, unfortunately, also takes away their earnings and therefore their ability to purchase whatever product you are developing. The ultra rich can only purchase your product so often - hence better make it a subscription model.

So there is pressure on purchasing power versus earnings. Interesting to see what happens and why.

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PunchyHamster
13 minutes ago
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Just sell it to govt, then you can take printed money directly instead of having to go thru such filthy thing as "consumers"
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Davidzheng
1 hour ago
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Am i misunderstanding? spending more tokens certainly is not optimizing for compute cost. It's the opposite
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zkmon
58 minutes ago
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The points look like disconnected pieces of wisdom, rather than tied to some common goals or objectives. First get clarity on root objectives, roles (who is doing what), artifacts etc and then define rules that are immediately traceable to the objectives, roles and artifacts.
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pjmlp
1 hour ago
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This is easy, no need for AI, just join any public servant IT organisation, regardless of the country. :)
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hanspeter
1 hour ago
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It has always been like this.

Plan before you code. Now your plan is just in a prompt.

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suddenlybananas
1 hour ago
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This sounds like a genuinely awful way to work.
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alentred
53 minutes ago
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> Code is context, not a library. Data is the real interface.

I don't *yet* subscribe to the idea of "code is context for AI, not an interface for a human", but I have to admit that the idea sounds feasible. I have many examples of small-to-mid size apps (local use only) where I pretty much didn't even look at the code beyond checking that it doesn't do anything finicky. There, the code doesn't mater because I know that I can always regenerate it from my specs, POC-s, etc. I agree that the paradigm changes completely if you look at code as something temporary that can be thrown away and re-created when the specification changes. I don't know where this leads to and if this is good or not for our industry, but the fact is - it is feasible.

I would never use this paradigm for anything related to production, though. Nope. Never. Not in the foreseeable future anyway.

> Everyone uses their own IDE, prompting style, and workflow.

In my experience with recent models this is still not a good idea: it quickly leads to messy code where neither AI nor human can do anything anymore. Consistency is key. (And abstractions/layers/isolation everywhere, as usual).

IDE - of course. But, at the very least, I would suggest using the same foundation model across the code base, .agent/ dirs with plenty of project documents, reusable prompts, etc.

--

P.S. Still not sure what does the 10AM rule bring, though...

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aeneas_ory
29 minutes ago
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Sounds like GPT wrote this piece based on some tech exec‘s „we must use AI or lose“ „strategy“. Just let engineers use the tools they want instead of force feeding them yet another ridiculous process. For me, if I have to do meetings in the morning (or „write promps“ lmao) instead of clearing out the ridiculous AI slop debt of code agents my product would never ship.
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isoprophlex
1 hour ago
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lol. my personal preference has always to do ALL the coding as early as possible. i get progressively dumber as the day wears on, seems sad to waste the prime hours on meetings and other more human things.

I don't see how that would change if you accept the premise that code is now a commodity.

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hbogert
1 hour ago
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Not linear in my case. My best is somewhere around 11ish. So that's usually when I start my ballmer peak and take my first beer. (Joking, of course, for people who don't get the reference)
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ilvez
1 hour ago
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This kind of generalizations are very organization specific because they rely on preexisting rules set within company. I dismiss every such rule and work that forces me to adjust my daily routine too heavily. Let me choose my best ways to deliver more instead of trying to fit me in the box.

In these cases, I just read the main point behind in this case is "create a way for devs to share context when working with AI".

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My_Name
1 hour ago
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That is essentially what the article says, that mornings are the most productive time, but it has shifted the focus from you doing the work, and mostly in the morning, to you outlining the work clearly in the morning, and the agent doing the work all day (and all night, and while you commute, and while you are in meetings)
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motbus3
1 hour ago
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Coding tools are less stable as the code grows for several reasons.

Some recent techniques claim to be solving this problem but none reached a release yet.

Working with what we have now, this is a recipe for disaster. Agents often lies about the outputs. The shorter the context space they have to manage while the bigger the data already in context makes it prone to lie and deceive.

It works ok for small changes on top of human code. That's what we know works now. The rest is more yet to be reached

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villgax
35 minutes ago
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Yet to see cancer solving or fusion breakthroughs, until then what exactly are the running around the clock for, a CRUD app?
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mdavid626
51 minutes ago
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Which company is actually doing this?
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koakuma-chan
1 hour ago
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> What would your team’s tenets look like? I’d genuinely love to hear.

My team is incredibly clueless and complacent. I can't even get them to use TypeScript or to migrate from Yarn v1.

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