Back to FreeBSD: Part 1
80 points
by enz
5 hours ago
| 8 comments
| hypha.pub
| HN
matheus-rr
1 hour ago
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The jails vs containers framing is interesting but I think it misses why Docker actually won. It wasn't the isolation tech. It was the ecosystem: Dockerfiles as executable documentation, a public registry, and compose for local dev. You could pull an image and have something running in 30 seconds without understanding anything about cgroups or namespaces.

FreeBSD jails were technically solid years before Docker existed, but the onboarding story was rough. You needed to understand the FreeBSD base system first. Docker let you skip all of that.

That said, I've been seeing more people question the container stack complexity recently. Especially for smaller deployments where a jail or even a plain VM with good config management would be simpler and more debuggable. The pendulum might be swinging back a bit for certain use cases.

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sthuck
1 hour ago
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I don't think article misses it, it's exactly the point it makes
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chuckadams
22 minutes ago
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Docker's client/server design also allowed for things like Docker Desktop, which made the integration seamless with non-linux systems. Jails have nothing like that, so the only system that will ever run jails is FreeBSD. Also, I'm not up to speed enough to know, but do jails even have a concept of container images?
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wolvoleo
31 minutes ago
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Jails were never going to 'win' because they're only on an OS with 0.1% marketshare.

But it's not a competition. FreeBSD does its thing and Linux does another. That's why I use FreeBSD.

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aswanson
15 minutes ago
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What is your use case for BSD?
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torstenvl
1 hour ago
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> Jails solve the isolation problem beautifully, but they don't have a native answer to shipping. That gap is real, and it's one of the main reasons the ecosystem around jails feels underdeveloped compared to Docker's world.

The link literally uses the term ecosystem. Several times actually.

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user3939382
20 minutes ago
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You can also run Linux containers on FreeBSD

https://youtu.be/HV-wUUzRCMo

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steve1977
43 minutes ago
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Maybe FreeBSD doesn't want a jails "ecosystem"?
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steve1977
44 minutes ago
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> You could pull an image and have something running in 30 seconds without understanding anything

Fixed that for you ;)

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palata
2 hours ago
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Nice article!

> To solve the distribution and isolation problem, Linux engineers built a set of kernel primitives (namespaces, cgroups, seccomp) and then, in a very Linux fashion, built an entire ecosystem of abstractions on top to “simplify” things: [...] Somehow we ended up with an overengineered mess of leaky abstractions

Not sure I like the value judgement here. I think it's more of a consequence of Linux' success. I am convinced that if it was reversed (Linux was niche and *BSD the norm), then a ton of abstractions would come, and the average user would "use an overengineered mess" because they don't know better (or don't care or don't have a need to care).

Not that I like it when people ship their binary in a 6G docker image. But I don't think it's fair to put that on "those Linux engineers".

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realusername
2 hours ago
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I don't think it's necessarily true, compare the BSD utils to the GNU utils and the style difference is very visible.

On the other hand, I don't think the comparison between jails and docker is fair. What made Docker popular is the reusability of the containers, certainty not the sandboxing which in the early days was very leaky.

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NooneAtAll3
1 hour ago
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what do you mean by reusability?
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maxloh
51 minutes ago
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For example, you can build a Python image, and reuse it on every Python apps you have.
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fragmede
43 minutes ago
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And for the whole world, too. I don't need to build my own local stripped down version of Alpine Linux with python, somebody's already dike that for me.
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lifeisstillgood
2 hours ago
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I ran a whole company on top of FreeBSD back in the day (2005 ish). It was great, and ran all my personal pcs the same way (hell, refusing to install windows to try out this bitcoin idea is even now a good idea).

But somehow Linux still took over my personal and professional life.

Going back seems nice but there need to be a compelling reason -docker is fine, the costs don’t add up any more. I do t have a real logical argument beyond that.

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dijit
27 minutes ago
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Yeah, I have a similar situation; FreeBSD is a great operating system, but the sheer amount of investment in Linux makes all the warts semi-tolerable.

I'm sure some people have a sunk-cost feeling with Linux and will get defensive of this, but ironically this was exactly the argument I had heard 20 years ago - and I was defensive about it myself then.. This has only become more true though.

It's really hard to argue against Linux when even architecturally poor decisions are papered over by sheer force of will and investment; so in a day-to-day context Linux is often the happy path even though the UX of FreeBSD is more consistent over time.

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flipped
27 minutes ago
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Never understood why satoshi was a prime windows user.
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earthscienceman
4 minutes ago
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I know this comment is effectively a side tangent on a side tangent. but that was always the strangest thing to me as well. I remember in 2012 when I was debating fiddling around with Bitcoin. that was one of the things that turned me off. I was sure that there was no way something as brilliant as this was supposed to be was developed by windows user.

Which surely says something about all these ideological purity tests

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flipped
30 minutes ago
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Is there any technical writeup which explains how the isolation exactly works, on containers and VMs? I have always heard the high level arguments of weak isolation, same kernel, etc but never the implementation details.
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nesarkvechnep
2 hours ago
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I’m always going to like articles introducing people to FreeBSD.
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user3939382
10 minutes ago
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I switched my startup’s whole infra to FreeBSD a couple months ago. Found a use after free bug that Linux’s memory management was just fine with in Gnome XSLT lib that FreeBSD properly refused. Other than that smooth sailing, jails work great.

After IBM destroyed CentOS, all the Xorg politics nonsense, the list goes on with Linux, not interested. I just want something quiet and boring and stable and correctly designed. NetBSD would be my first choice but they don’t get the $ they need for drivers.

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manuelabeledo
1 minute ago
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You don’t need to follow the news cycle to use an operating system.
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flipped
25 minutes ago
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Anyone looking to use jails might find BastileBSD helpful. It's a nice and modern jail manager.
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paul_h
15 minutes ago
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I was looking at TrueNAS CORE to see if it was a viable way to bsd-jail Linux containers. I'm really only doing this to get some protection from supply chain attacks given I'm fairly promiscuous at git-clone-and-run-a-build. Before that I was aiming for the same with Bastille and had got to the give up stage because it felt too fiddly to set up. This was a year ago. Maybe its better now
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NooneAtAll3
1 hour ago
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"failed to verify your browser"
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