More Cows, More Wives
59 points
by oxw
3 days ago
| 9 comments
| worksinprogress.news
| HN
blfr
1 hour ago
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most people in the world don’t and have never lived like Europeans

Yeah, but, as it turns out with modern migration trends, the revealed preference is that they would want to, given an opportunity. Being European, I would also prefer to live like a European.

Lifelong monogamy as a default and an almost universal ban on kin marriage seem to be solid contributors here.

Also, I don't think the current remnants of hunter gatherers are all that informative about our past. These are different people who live in marginal lands. Hunter gatherers of Europe would have had access to prime real estate and extremely food dense coastal areas, made long voyages at least occasionally. Quite simply, successful societies look different.

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geremiiah
2 hours ago
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Enjoyable read. I've long since been wondering whether the low birth rates have something to do with the insecurity that surrounds modern day marriages. If you're a woman you don't want to invest in children, only to be divorced and left to raise the child of your now No.1 enemy. If you're a man, the insecurity is around whether the child is yours and also whether your wife will later divorce you and your child be taken away from you (sure visitation rights, but pratically the child grows up in the household of another man, if she remarries).
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giantg2
1 hour ago
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The paternity issue should be easy to overcome with modern technology. There's really no reason the state shouldn't require a paternity test to ensure the accuracy of the state issued birth certificate.
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bombcar
1 hour ago
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Some states go the other way - if you (as the father, maybe the mother but that's pretty easy to verify I hear) sign the birth certificate you are the father (Maury) for all legal purposes even if you're not - wether knowingly or not.
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giantg2
1 hour ago
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Yes, most states see it that way. But you could still make them the legal father through adoption (like with step parents) without providing inaccurate information on the birth certificate.
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dyauspitr
2 hours ago
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75% of divorces are initiated by women in the US. If college educated that number jumps to 90%. Divorce as an mechanism, is almost entirely used by women.
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russdill
2 hours ago
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The divorce mechanism is the legal end of the partnership. It's not an indication of who initiated the termination of the partnership itself.
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giantg2
1 hour ago
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Do you have evidence to back up the implict claim that those two are not strongly correlated?
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CalRobert
2 hours ago
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The question, of course, is whether that means women want divorce more, or men fear divorce more.
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kakacik
6 minutes ago
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Women absolutely want the divorce more once they come to conclusion some aspect of relationship is over (typically the emotion part but simply spending less time together is enough).

Most guys can suck up now-loveless marriage trivially if kids are fine (after kids come, this is pretty standard path for marriages), heck we can still enjoy sex greatly in such situation. Most women, not so much. I know it sounds sexist, trust me I would be very happy if this wasnt true but when I look/ask/listen around it is.

As an cca older guy at certain age the patterns start emerging left and right, and my own marriage can see some of it, just like most other marriages around us.

Some make it, some don't. When it fails its mostly mixture of personality resilience of both sides rather than some objective measure of (lack of) quality of relationship. Its easy to judge but please be kind to those who are going/went through, they may have been a better partner than ie you and still it wasnt enough to sustain it.

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dyauspitr
16 minutes ago
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Anecdotally, men are a lot more content with marriage. Women want a lot more. The whole “healthy relationship” ecosystem in contemporary times is almost entirely women driven.
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voakbasda
2 hours ago
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This does not surprise me, as the courts are flagrantly biased toward women in these matters. Almost without exception, they come out ahead in every measurable metric.
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bombcar
1 hour ago
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This is not always exactly true if you dig into the details - for example, something like 20% of fathers get custody - but it's something like 90% of fathers who try to get custody get some.
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bluGill
52 minutes ago
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How many don't even try though because them assume it is hopeless. Some custody includes things like 1 weekend a month - if that is all you get it wasn't really worth the bother.
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giantg2
1 hour ago
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"as the courts are flagrantly biased toward women in these matters"

As in most matters. There are many studies about lesser sentences for women vs men who commit the same crimes.

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bell-cot
2 hours ago
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From divorces among family & friends - yes, those concerns exist. But they are also worst-case scenarios, and there are many "friendlier" divorces. Or divorces after the kids grow up - where none of the paternity, left-to-raise, and visitation issues really apply.

Vs. even if marriages were magically 100% secure - the costs of having kids in most modern societies have skyrocketed over the past half-ish century or so.

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bluGill
54 minutes ago
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> And fathers who wish to divorce assume that the mothers of their children will be fine raising children alone with the support of their family, the state, and their salaries.

This makes the false assumption that men don't care about their children. Society and the courts tend to agree with it, but the vast majority of divorced men I know complain about how little they get to see their children, combined with how they are seen as only a paycheck and not as a parent. Things are slowly changing, men are more likely to get custody, and joint custody does happen - but there is still a lot of the "men are not able to raise kids" attitude around.

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1970-01-01
49 minutes ago
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Excellent submission. I particularly appreciate the lack of technical drama submissions on weekends. Again, this is a great read and a new favorite.
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hearsathought
14 minutes ago
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> For much of history, this complexity was invisible to Westerners. Northwestern Europeans assumed that their way of doing things, lifelong monogamous marriage sanctified by religion and nuclear families with male breadwinners, was the natural order.

Hard to take this nonsense seriously. Northwest europe was christian and there are plenty of examples of non-monogamous marriages in the bible.

> One thing became abundantly clear: most people in the world don’t and have never lived like Europeans.

No shit. Heck, even within europe it was known. Such as the areas controlled by muslims. It was known for hundreds of years.

> It’s easy to see how the arrival of wealth reshaped marriage: more cows, more wives.

This is true prior to farming. Those who claimed the best hunting grounds ( wealth ) or access to water ( wealth ) would get more wives.

> Women, however, do. They have a choice: be the second or third wife of a rich pastoralist or be the first wife of a poor one. It can pay to be the former.

Did women really have a choice? Or wouldn't it make more sense for the father to marry her off to the guy who offers him the most dowry? The guy writes further down : "Parents can also command a higher bride price for daughters seen as compliant and chaste.".

> Monogamous systems, therefore, may have evolved to limit the transfer of resources, rather than as a form of monogamous mating.

Monogamous systems happened in most "civilizations" to maintain peace. When you have a significant group of men without women or prospects for women, it can lead to instability. Especially in civilizations with large populations. Monogamy introduces a sense of fairness which everyone - men, women, fathers, mathers, etc can buy into.

It's why monogamous systems are dominant in every developed civilizations from europe to east asia and in between. And nonmonogamous systems are dominant in rural tribal backwards areas.

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bell-cot
4 hours ago
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Not an anthropologist - but instead of "How farming promotes inequality", I'd frame it as "How resource-producing capital promotes inequality". It could be livestock in a migratory herding society, or boats and nets when those were critical for fishing, or whatever.

> In contemporary Western societies, unigeniture is either considered wrong or is illegal; we no longer differentiate between legitimate and illegitimate offspring...

At best, those are common ideals in Western society. Try talking to an old attorney who does family law.

Also worth a mention - in primitive conditions, polygamy can speed the spread of highly beneficial genes through the society. The textbook case is immune system genes - historically, disease killed a lot of our ancestors.

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mandevil
2 hours ago
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TFA talked about the difficulty of division, and waved at the idea that farming was different from pastoral societies because of the ease of division: farming land is more valuable as it is concentrated (because of the well known dangers of having many very small plots that are difficult to work and improve) but a herd (or fishing tools) can be split and merged far more easily. So agriculture drives to unigenture.

A blog post like this is mostly hand-waving at complex ideas, but that was her argument for it.

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bell-cot
1 hour ago
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Based both on family history (farmers both sides) and experts such as https://acoup.blog/2025/07/11/collections-life-work-death-an... - I have grave doubts as to the downsides of having many small plots of land in early agricultural conditions. The critical issue is having enough total land (measured by productivity) to feed your family in bad years.

And whatever nice-sounding things TFA might suggest about diving a herd, it's obvious that 8 cattle are worth 4X as much as 2 cattle. And any "leave 1/4 of my herd to each of my 4 children" division will result in a 4X downgrade to the next generation's standard of living.

(Oh, yeah - the TFA has plenty of optimistic hand-waving.)

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ekjhgkejhgk
3 hours ago
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> I'd frame it as "How resource-producing capital promotes inequality". It could be livestock in a migratory herding society, or boats and nets when those were critical for fishing, or whatever.

I agree, but nitpick: capital by definition can be put to use to produce or gather something. So resource-producing capital is redundant.

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bell-cot
2 hours ago
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Yes-ish? I'm not a CPA or MBA (ditto most folks here) but looked at a few online dictionaries for "capital". From cases like gold in a hunter-gatherer society - a status-signaling luxury and trade good, but you probably can't get much more than perishable foods or nicer stone tools in exchange - it seemed worth the clarifying/emphasizing redundancy.
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mkoubaa
3 hours ago
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Eden was probably just a metaphor for life before agriculture
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ramesh31
2 hours ago
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I mean it makes sense, all you really need are cows and wives to turn sunshine into children. What more could a man need.
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M95D
2 minutes ago
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A lot of grass land for the cows.
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TacticalCoder
3 hours ago
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> So how does one explain the parts of the world, like Europe and large parts of Asia, that are unequal yet predominantly monogamous?

Note that when we talk about polygamy in the past, it's about, like in TFA, a man with many wives. Not a woman with many men.

How does the modern "free" and "liberated" world reconcile that with feminism? When we talk about modern-day polygamous societies, it's basically islam. And islam is a highly patriarcal society.

So what's the take of feminists on these facts?

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n1b0m
2 hours ago
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Polyandry exists mainly in isolated, agrarian, or mountainous regions like Tibet, Nepal, and parts of India to preserve land and family resources. It is also found in some African communities and among indigenous groups.

The most common form is where a woman marries a group of brothers to keep family land and assets united. It is often a strategic economic decision for survival in difficult conditions, rather than just a cultural preference.

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NoImmatureAdHom
1 hour ago
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I don't know the feminist take, but just to explain: the reason there is much much more polygyny than polyandry is basic reproduction mechanics. Women max out at ~13 kids, the most reproductively successful men have had thousands. So, a single well-resourced man can keep a bevy of wives at close to their reproductive limit no problem.

(Well, problems come when you do this as a society and create an age group of young men who have no shot at a wife because of 50/50 birth ratio. They get violent.)

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