Tech companies shouldn't be bullied into doing surveillance
173 points
5 hours ago
| 16 comments
| eff.org
| HN
givemeethekeys
1 minute ago
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The Patriot Act and Data Analytical Services (DAS) program among others are examples of the government using surveillance as soon as the opportunity presents itself.
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epistasis
4 hours ago
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Back during the Iraq war days and government overreach into privacy violations, the tech companies were on the side of the American people. They fought to defend the 4th amendment.

That has all changed today, except for Anthropic. You think Apple is going to stand up to an unlawful DoJ demand these days? Hell no. Tim Cook has lit Apple's reputation on fire. I've been a super dedicated Apple user for 25 years, but I'm heading for the exits now. All that trust has been burned.

Stay strong Anthoproc, you are seemingly the only really large SV company with any principles and backbone. I won't forget what happens here, either way it goes.

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pamcake
3 hours ago
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I'd hold off making that call on Anthropic here until at least after Friday. I'm not sure if persisting that "constructive dialogue is taking place in good faith" and saying nothing else in public signifies backbone considering preceding and consecutive public statements by government officials... It certainly doesn't instil confidence in honesty or transparency.
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bpodgursky
1 hour ago
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I mean they got threatened with the Defense Production Act. Firmly standing their ground without an inch of give may backfire spectacularly too, if the DoD injects itself into model training.

I think they pretty clearly demonstrated good faith and where it ends up is a tactical choice I'm not in a great position to judge.

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tehjoker
7 minutes ago
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If DoD seizes the IP, the issue is they will need the cooperation of their scientists at least in the short term, if they want it to remain a fronter model. The labor angle isn't entirely guaranteed though the white collar worker has very little spine in this country.
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GaryBluto
24 minutes ago
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> Back during the Iraq war days and government overreach into privacy violations, the tech companies were on the side of the American people. They fought to defend the 4th amendment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

PRISM started in 2007, during the Iraq war.

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tolerance
24 minutes ago
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> Back during the Iraq war days and government overreach into privacy violations, the tech companies were on the side of the American people.

Companies such as?

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int32_64
4 minutes ago
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Qwest tried and the CEO went to prison as retaliation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nacchio

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vjvjvjvjghv
1 hour ago
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“ the tech companies were on the side of the American people”

They are on the side of making money. And the bigger they are, the more pressure. The big tech companies are now so big that they can’t afford to leave any money in the table if they want to keep their growth rates.

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kdheiwns
1 hour ago
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Tech companies in the early 2000s were nerds who grew up in an environment where tech was for losers and a waste of time. A lot of those people had strong values and did it because they enjoyed it and wanted other nerds like themselves to have cool stuff.

Now companies are dominated by MBAs and nepotism. Most join tech for a quick cash out. Having values is seen as a loss, because if you can get a billion, why not? You're invincible if you're rich and none of these downsides apply to you. Screw everyone else. They could just be a billionaire themselves if they don't like it.

As a result, zoomers today meme about people like the unabomber making a good point.

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hackit2
42 minutes ago
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That can be so far from the truth it hurts thinking about it. Governments passed laws that mandated that businesses must legally comply with DOJ or Government Investigates on people of interest. Otherwise they will be blocked in those countries. No users = No money. Most government consider they're extending you the privilege to conduct business with their citizens, and by virtue of granting you those rights you're burden with complying with the countries laws/security and/or audits.
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matheusmoreira
40 minutes ago
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> As a result, zoomers today meme about people like the unabomber making a good point.

I don't blame them.

As a nerd I think my spirit was broken by the absolute apathy of the normies. It was easy to ignore up until the early 2000s. It's become unbearable after social media and the iPhone reached the masses. It's not nerd stuff anymore. They influence every design now. They shape every decision. They are actively exploited at every turn. They are profiled, surveilled, controlled. It's gotten to the point even we nerds can't escape this fate no matter how much we want to. We try to tell them about it and we're made out to be tinfoil hat nutjobs. It's happening and they don't care.

It feels so hopeless and it's honestly very radicalizing. It breeds sociopathy. In the end I can't find the will to blame the billionaires either. I think I'd do the same if I could. Make billions and then just create a small paradise for me and all the people I care about. A subset of society where the principles I hold dear actually apply. Society is too fucked up and nobody cares, so I'll just create my own fiefdom.

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SanjayMehta
3 hours ago
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All our Intel Macs are getting repurposed for Ubuntu LTS - whatever version which supports our CAD tools.
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mixmastamyk
2 hours ago
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Recommend Mint instead. Flatpak instead of snap.
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SanjayMehta
1 hour ago
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Some tools go out of their way to whine piteously if they can't find Ubuntu in /etc/issue et al. We were using Mint, just got tired of messing with installation scripts every time an upgrade came. And as the transition to Linux accelerates, it's just more convenient to stick with whatever the vendor wants.
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inetknght
24 minutes ago
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> tools go out of their way to whine piteously if they can't find Ubuntu in /etc/issue et al

If those tools are open source, fix them. If they're not open source, don't use them. Problem solved.

It's not hard to write an installation script.

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bsharper
4 minutes ago
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You mean you DON'T want to see every utility installed via snap listed as a mount point? /s
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myvoiceismypass
3 hours ago
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Hate to break the news but they might not be good guys either - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47145963

(Dropping safety pledge)

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reasonableklout
3 hours ago
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Do you think it's possible the two are related?
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yunnpp
3 hours ago
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It's obvious that they are.

The best thing the company could do if they want to stick to principles is not be based in the US.

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givemeethekeys
5 minutes ago
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And, where should they be based out of?
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ipaddr
3 hours ago
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They over did the safety aspect in my opinion.
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samrus
2 hours ago
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Bullied into doing surveillance? Brother a large part of the tech companies valuations are built on how well they allow the government to do surveillance if the governement wants. They arent victims being bullied, they all knew this day would come ajd most were happy about it
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saurik
3 hours ago
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Maybe tech companies should try a bit harder to not centralize the world's information, unencrypted, on servers they control.
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sejje
3 hours ago
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Amen.

But then they can't make their billions selling our data.

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KennyBlanken
15 minutes ago
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Huh? That's basically an integral part of nearly any tech company's life cycle?

You might as well suggest Mobil not sell gasoline or oil.

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uutangohotel
2 hours ago
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oops accidental surveillance machine
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djoldman
3 hours ago
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As an aside, why is it not a law that the government can't pay another entity to do something it's not allowed to do itself, without a warrant? I'm thinking about geo data from mobile apps.
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samename
3 hours ago
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It’s due to the third party doctrine, a Supreme Court precedent

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine

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avs733
38 minutes ago
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which has been warped all out of any comprehensible reality. It hinges on the idea of 'voluntarily' turning over information. Much of what is now considered information voluntarily turned over isn't even information that people know exist much less that they are turning over much less doing so voluntarily.
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inetknght
22 minutes ago
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It's not voluntary if you don't know about it.
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KennyBlanken
9 minutes ago
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Requiring someone pay for information by any common sense interpretation isn't voluntary.

The courts have lost their goddamn minds.

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pwndByDeath
2 hours ago
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Give up social media, make the man do it the old fashion way.
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isodev
2 hours ago
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Tech companies shouldn’t be able to do surveillance.
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nzeid
3 hours ago
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Agree but a terrifyingly large number of tech companies have garbage security so the bullying is often unnecessary.
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dackdel
33 minutes ago
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I think they are paid & bribed into it, not bullied.
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browningstreet
3 hours ago
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Hegseth & Co. has Grok but they actually want Claude. Elon hates Anthropic and.. well.. Hegseth has the power to put the hurt on them.

Anthropic opened themselves to this disaster by making that first contract with the military.

I don’t want them to lose this battle but it’s also one they brought upon themselves by stepping into that arena.

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linksnapzz
3 hours ago
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Neither should banks, but that ship has sailed.
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camillomiller
3 hours ago
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Well, it seems they don’t need that much bullying. They are absolutely happy to contribute if it means favors, no tariffs, more profit etc
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mcs5280
2 hours ago
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Imagine a world where businesses considered the morality of their decisions instead of just maximizing profits
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deadbabe
3 hours ago
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If they give in I will cancel all Anthropic subscriptions and never use anything created by them again. Recent versions of Claude were getting shitty anyway, I could go without it.
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metadat
3 hours ago
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All other foundation model providers already caved (OpenAI, Google).
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ChrisArchitect
3 hours ago
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Related:

Hegseth gives Anthropic until Friday to back down on AI safeguards

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47140734

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47142587

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gaigalas
3 hours ago
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Totally agree with the statement: Tech companies shouldn't be bullied into doing surveillance.

I would personally add "bullied, coerced and/or gaslighted into doing surveillance".

I don't understand why the US government is doing this though. Wouldn't it be much easier to do use some of the already passed laws on foreign intelligence to open a surveillance data pipeline? You know, like PRISM.

I mean, this is inconsistent with the previous M.O., and highly unusual.

I also feel very conflicted to suddenly have to "defend Anthropic", a company that has been systematically doing evil things (destabilizing markets, promoting misleading media campaings, etc). I don't want to defend those guys.

Can I just dislike both the US military and Anthropic at the same time, and say there are no good guys here?

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SanjayMehta
3 hours ago
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"Tech companies shouldn't be bullied into doing surveillance for the govt."

FTFY

They're going to spy on you regardless.

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