Mondrian Entered the Public Domain. The Estate Disagrees
139 points
3 days ago
| 8 comments
| copyrightlately.com
| HN
theragra
6 hours ago
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As always, copyright is a supressor of creativity, not an enabler. Copyright terms should be 10-20 years max, or up to death of an author. Even current regime is ridiculous.
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observationist
1 hour ago
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0-5 years commercial copyright - the author/creator has total say on any and all commercial use, fair use doctrine applies. Years 6-10, extended fair use: mandatory attribution and 15% royalty but otherwise unlimited for public use in any context, for any reason. Years 11+, goes to public domain.

Simple system. Encourages creativity, 99% of all money made on media (books, music, movies,etc) gets made during the first 5 years after publishing.

No grandfathered works, no lineages of families who had a creative relative back in the 40s getting to coast through life by bilking the rest of the world on their fluke of genetics.

Current copyright is a sick joke designed to enrich lawyers and wealthy IP hoarders, and screw the public out of money on a continual basis. We don't have to live like this.

Until it changes, pirate everything.

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Cider9986
11 minutes ago
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Anyone looking to start pirating check out fmhy.net (free media heck yeah)
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goku12
27 minutes ago
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Wait! Are you talking about the history or the future aspiration? I thought that the IP laws were initially like what you described here, until the greedy class stuffed the politicians' mouths with cash (aka lobbying).
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kube-system
12 minutes ago
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The first copyright law granted 14 years to everything and 21 years for works already in production.

The first copyright law in the US granted 14 years + a renewable 14 years.

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edent
4 hours ago
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"Up to death" would provide a perverse incentive for people to kill creators in order to liberate something from copyright.
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kibwen
3 hours ago
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Taking the death date into account is literally already how prevailing copyright law works. You can just make it conditional on publish date.
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edent
2 hours ago
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Sure, but Life + 70 means it is unlikely that anyone will benefit from the death soon.
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Tangurena2
15 minutes ago
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One provision of the Sony Bono Copyright Extension Act [0] (which expired 6 months after passage of the law) allowed next-of-kin to revoke (the sale of) copyrights sold by the author without recourse (by the folks who paid for them). Allegedly, this was added by Disney in order to cut costs hundreds of millions of dollars in a dispute over licensing Winnie The Pooh IP/rights [1].

Expect something similar when the next big author dies; my prediction: JK Rowling.

Notes:

0 - https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/senate-bill/505

1- https://hughstephensblog.net/2023/12/18/winnie-the-poohs-cop...

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benj111
2 hours ago
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TBF there's currently a massive perverse incentive in that we want to encourage creators to create, but then allow the successful ones to retire making money from past works.
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nullc
2 hours ago
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The inheritors are in a better position to kill the author-- or just allow them to die from neglect-- and are incentivized to do so by postmortem profits.

Any benefit from the work being public domain is diffuse, it won't create a windfall for any particular party. The residuals on the other hand are quite concrete, particularly when an author's preferences are capping the market for their work or when the publicity of their death will create newfound popularity.

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pyuser583
16 minutes ago
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The distinction between author and their estates is fascinating: the stereotype is estates mismanaging the art, but that usually happens because the estates want to be “artistic” themselves.

Most artists are terrible at business. They do dumb things for no reason.

JRR Tolkein and his estate is prime example. JRR signed away all movie rights for a nominal sum. His estate fought tooth and nail for their rights, while still allowing grey zone stuff to develop (Dungeons and Dragons).

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toast0
25 minutes ago
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> The inheritors are in a better position to kill the author-- or just allow them to die from neglect-- and are incentivized to do so by postmortem profits.

An estate tax of 100% would eliminate this moral hazard; but the estate tax is already unpopular when its exemption amount means that few estates pay any tax.

> Any benefit from the work being public domain is diffuse, it won't create a windfall for any particular party.

A defendant in a copyright infringement case would have a windfall if the copyright was extinguished as a result of an untimely death.

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cubefox
4 hours ago
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Maybe 100 years after birth instead.
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cestith
2 hours ago
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That’s a disincentive to authors in their later years if it’s a straight rule.

We’d need something like a minimum of 20 years or up to their 100th birthday or something.

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notarobot123
1 hour ago
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Imagine being in the last phase of life and finding your only motivation to create or share anything is the opportunity to extract as much value from society as possible.
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kube-system
1 hour ago
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Many people find motivation to give to their heirs in their last phase of life.
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notarobot123
1 hour ago
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This isn't a bad idea. It would prevent the constant recycling of copyrighted works and bias the creative economy towards newer works. It seems the bias is in the other direction at the moment.
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B1FF_PSUVM
5 hours ago
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It's rather incongruous that you register intellectual property for very little - and have states enforcing your rights for free - while a piece of land pays property taxes.
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kube-system
54 minutes ago
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> It's rather incongruous that you register intellectual property for very little

It's even more incongruous that you'd have to "register" for your rights. Intellectual property are recognized as an inherent right that doesn't require any registration at all, under the 1886 Berne Convention.

Although the US was not a signatory until 1989.

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tacticalturtle
2 hours ago
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The state isn’t enforcing your rights for free - you still have to hire a lawyer and pay legal expenses yourself.

The state is just providing the infrastructure where you are allowed to make a claim, if you choose to do so.

This is like complaining that businesses get to use roads for free - ignoring that we all pay taxes already and built this infrastructure for enabling exactly that purpose.

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cestith
2 hours ago
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Copyright infringement in the United States has both civil and criminal elements at law.
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tacticalturtle
1 hour ago
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Touché.

This will arouse the ire of the “copyright infringement isn’t theft” people - but we also have the government enforce shoplifting and larceny from retail businesses.

I believe the legal cost to recoup the loss of either IP revenue or physical property will be born by the victim though.

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kstrauser
1 hour ago
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Retail businesses pay property taxes to support that. I fully support copyright enforcement being funded by intellectual property taxes:

* You declare your property’s worth.

* You pay IP taxes on that worth.

* You cannot sure for recovery of more than that worth, total. If you have a song worth $1M, and sue 2 people for $500K, then consider it sold. If someone steals a car from you, you can’t collect its full worth each from multiple thieves.

And if you have a $1B film, you can’t sue for $1B if you’re only paying taxes on $1M.

Why are your and my taxes subsidizing theft from the public domain? Let them pay for it, just like our property taxes pay for roads and schools and fire departments and police.

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kube-system
45 minutes ago
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Criminal cases aren't a substitute for civil suits, not for copyright... or for any other type of loss.

People generally do have to pay their own way to bring a civil case to recover for damages in a copyright infringement case... or any kind of case.

The fines/jail time typically ascribed by a criminal case do not go into a victims bank account. A criminal case is between the government prosecutor and the defendant. The copyright holder wouldn't even be a party to the case.

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toast0
4 minutes ago
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Many states do collect restitution funds from revenues generated by the work of encarcerated people, and those funds do go to victims. I don't know that that applies to copyright infringement, but it is possible to get some recovery from criminal proceedings.
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tacticalturtle
1 hour ago
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> Retail businesses pay property taxes to support that.

But they don’t?

Copyright infringement is a federal crime - your property taxes don’t fund that. The income tax that we all pay, including the IP holders, do the funding.

Additionally retail theft, at least in my jurisdiction of Massachusetts is prosecuted by the state - my income taxes fund that, not property taxes.

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cestith
1 hour ago
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Sometimes for physical property the police take it and the owner can get it back from them. That much is sometimes free. My motorcycle got returned, but if I wanted compensation for the substantial damage done to it I would have had to get it from the thief.

Often the property is never found and returned.

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simonh
5 hours ago
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Creators pay tax on their income.

We all get legal protections for our property.

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boomlinde
3 hours ago
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Real property owners also pay tax on their income. Income is taxed. Real property is taxed. Intellectual property is not.
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bryanrasmussen
44 minutes ago
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Real property is taxed, but often you do not pay capital gains on sold real property (this "often" of course varies by jurisdiction, so yes in lots of places you may pay some if the conditions are right), when selling intellectual property you often (same proviso as before, only inverted) pay capital gains.
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kube-system
41 minutes ago
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Real property is sometimes taxed. Certain uses/users are partially exempt from taxation, and some uses/users are entirely exempt. It is not legal to rob these properties, nor should it be.
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simonh
3 hours ago
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I'm in the UK. Simply owning land does not incur taxes here, we don't have land value taxes. You pay capital gains tax on profits selling land. There are annual taxes on buildings such as council taxes on houses, specifically to pay for municipal services, but not generally on land.

If I make goods I'm not taxed for owning them, only if I earn income from the sale or use of those goods.

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closewith
2 hours ago
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There are some analogues of a land tax in the UK. Council tax for residential property, rates for businesses, and the upcoming mansion tax.
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brookst
3 hours ago
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IP is next to impossible to appraise, unlike land.

It’s pretty easy to ballpark what a lot of house or office building is worth based on comparables that sold recently. IP doesn’t sell that much and comparisons are harder.

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closewith
3 hours ago
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This is actually a solved problem. It is self-assessed valuation with compulsory sale at declared value, known as the Harberger Tax.
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boomlinde
1 hour ago
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The effect of a Harberger tax on intellectual property would probably be an upwards transfer of ownership of intellectual property, from people who can't afford to pay taxes on whatever those 100,000x more wealthy are willing to pay.

A Harberger tax might work well in economist-land, where any discrepancy between what wealth I could extract from my property and what wealth I actually extract from it represents an inefficiency that can be addressed by a transfer of ownership at market value at no inconvenience to the original owner. In reality, there are many other reasons than market value that I might hold onto intellectual property.

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ralferoo
2 hours ago
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This is only a solution if you think it's fair to have a regular ownership tax on top of the tax paid when purchasing / selling something.
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closewith
2 hours ago
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It's a solution to the problem raised by the GP - how to fairly value IP.

This whole thread is about how many countries with land taxes don't similarly tax other assets like IP. Whether you think it's fair or not is another question - the blocker isn't fair valuation.

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bryanrasmussen
40 minutes ago
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the solution to how to fairly value IP was provided by the owner, capital gains tax happens on sale of IP

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47220210

capital gains does not happen on sale of land generally. These two things are obviously taxed differently because it is to the value of the government to do so, and the value of the government is supposed in many countries to somehow translate into a value for society.

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stevekemp
4 hours ago
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> while a piece of land pays property taxes.

In some countries taxes are annual.

In the UK you pay taxes when you buy/sell property, or land. You don't need to pay land/property taxes every year.

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lanceflt
4 hours ago
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Council taxes are property taxes and are monthly.
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mvc
10 minutes ago
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They're not exactly proportional to the value of the property though are they? There's folks in London with multi-million pound mansions who pay the same or less in council tax than a family home in the suburbs.
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stevekemp
27 minutes ago
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Council taxes could be considered propertie taxes, I guess, though I've always thought of them as paying for rubbish collection & etc.

However council taxes are paid by the residents of a property rather than the owner of a property. Granted these are often the same, but consider the case of a landlord with five properties the tenants would be paying those.

In the sense that Americans talk about property taxes as an annual thing I believe that distinction makes it a slightly different thing..

(And council tax is only a thing for property, if you buy a chunk of land with no houses upon it you pay nothing.)

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dghf
4 hours ago
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Well, technically they're annual, but you're allowed to pay them in arrears over 10 or 12 months.
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ivell
5 hours ago
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IPR is a form of incentive for creators in service of betterment of the society (it also could be detrimental like Mein Kempf though). On the other hand real estate does not need such extra incentives. Need or greed is enough.
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GuestFAUniverse
5 hours ago
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The book title is "Mein K_a_mpf".

It's related to the latin "c_a_mpus" / battle field -- like most European languages, there are close relationships to the neighbors. While there were shifts in sounds: in this case not.

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piaste
4 hours ago
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The enforcement isn't the issue, it's the scarcity.
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SolarNet
1 hour ago
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Land is scarce. Also, generally, property taxes are paid to the city/county that makes that land desirable to live in.
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freejazz
1 hour ago
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If its the term that's the issue, it's the term, not copyright itself. Which do you think it is?
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damnitbuilds
2 hours ago
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Almost all works make all their money in the first five years after creation.

5 years is therefore a very reasonable copyright term limit, that will benefit almost all creators and benefit - not penalise - the society that lets them have copyright in the first place, i.e. us.

Fuck the copyright cartels.

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AJ007
1 hour ago
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Generative AI raises a lot of questions as to the value of copyright to society.

There's a very dangerous direction I suspect things are tipping toward with generative AI: the big creative rights holders / representatives are going to be paid big royalties, in perpetuity for generative AI. The amount of money the RIAA could get from Google, for example, may exceed the enterprise values of all record labels combined.

Even more scary, deals written in to national law could join copyright cartels and mega corporations at the hip and effectively ban all but the largest multi-trillion dollar companies from training and serving generative AI models. Local AI models you download and run today - whether LLMs or image generation would be illegal.

These models were trained and tuned on the collective work of human civilization. If someone uses a generative model to assist them in creating something new, how much intellectual property rights does that individual deserve? How much intellectual property rights do the dead, dying, and their rights owners deserve?

What was black or white 5 years ago is now grey. What remains of black or white today will all be grey in 5 years as generative AI proliferates through all forms of software and real time rendering (if my iPhone camera is using generative AI to make an optical zoom look more detailed, how much is really my photo? How much of it is Disney's?)

Even without diving in to the privacy & censorship aspects of these issues, I think there's a very good case for completely ending copyright in the long term (leaving exceptions for things such as a human's own likeness?) At least in the near term, 5 years sounds ok.

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freejazz
13 minutes ago
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A human's own likeness is not copyrightable. Hard to take posts about copyright doctrine seriously when they are premised on complete misunderstanding.
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PowerElectronix
4 hours ago
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Copyright doing what it does best. Killing new works that resemble a bit too much anything under its protection and allowing rentseekers to live off others.
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romeinaday
14 minutes ago
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If I were to sell an app on the App Store called Mondrianify which made Mondrian-style pictures, would the Mondrian Trust demand the app be removed?
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bonzini
5 hours ago
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I read "The duration of the U.S. protection for all other works… was for 70 years from the artist’s date of death" and thought wow, did Mondrian really live into the 1960s or so?

Next paragraph: "Mondrian died in 1944. Any of his works subject to a life-plus-70 regime would have entered the public domain" 10 years ago. Who even thought of including that in a legal argument??

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input_sh
3 hours ago
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Life + 70 has always been an oversimplification, we still haven't even reached 70 years since the introduction of these rules (1973 in the US, in other countries depends on when the US strogarmed them into adopting similar rules).

There's all sorts of quirks for anything published before that rule got standardised more-or-less worldwide, but in general 1930-1945 is still like a legal grey area that can be challenged in court and you should be good to go for anything published before that. And don't get me even started on posthumous publications, that's a whole different can of worms where a family member might claim some contribution (like for example Anne Frank's father), pushing the copyright further to the life of the author + life of that family member + 70.

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Someone
4 hours ago
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based on your comment (the site is unresponsive, so I cannot check what exactly it says) I think the article is incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_St...:

“For works published or registered before 1978, the maximum copyright duration is 95 years from the date of publication, if copyright was renewed during the 28th year following publication. Copyright renewal has been automatic since the Copyright Renewal Act of 1992.

For works created before 1978, but not published or registered before 1978, the standard §302 copyright duration of 70 years from the author's death also applies. Prior to 1978, works had to be published or registered to receive copyright protection. Upon the effective date of the 1976 Copyright Act (which was January 1, 1978) this requirement was removed and these unpublished, unregistered works received protection. However, Congress intended to provide an incentive for these authors to publish their unpublished works. To provide that incentive, these works, if published before 2003, would not have their protection expire before 2048.”

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masfuerte
4 hours ago
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You quote a section about unpublished work. The painting was published nearly a hundred years ago so the quote isn't relevant. If you think the article is wrong please state how.
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Someone
3 hours ago
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I don’t see that. “For works published or registered before 1978, the maximum copyright duration is 95 years from the date of publication, if copyright was renewed during the 28th year following publication” may not apply here, but if so, it isn’t because the work was published.
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masfuerte
1 hour ago
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Is this a guessing game? Which specific claim in the article do you think is wrong? What do you think is the true situation?
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jlv2
2 hours ago
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donohoe
2 hours ago
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Sadly archive[dot]ph uses its site to perform a DDoS against a blogger they don't like, and are manipulating pages. They've been dropped by Wikipedia.

There is also this version:

https://web.archive.org/web/20260301183248/https://copyright...

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dredmorbius
1 hour ago
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Also Internet Archive: <https://web.archive.org/web/20260123152234/https://copyright...>

(Origin site is presently down.)

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dboreham
38 minutes ago
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Reminds me of when in my youth I thought it would be a good idea to re-tile my bathroom in the style of a Mondrian. This because I'd found that white, red, green and yellow tiles were available at low cost. Good to know that bathroom is not in breach of copyright now.
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jacquesm
5 hours ago
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The Mondrian estate... don't get me started on that one.
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benj111
2 hours ago
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Surely the issue is estates (in this sense) in general. Did anyone in the estate actually know the guy whose legacy they're supposed to be protecting?

How does paying money to Mondrian's great great great great grandchildren enhance society?

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jacquesm
2 hours ago
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See also: Ravel.
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damnitbuilds
2 hours ago
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We GIVE creators copyright to serve us by encouraging CREATION.

Mondrian died decades ago. He is not creating any more. Copyright of his works is not serving us any more.

Copyright should have ended when the balance between encouraging his creation and encouraging others to create based on his works was reached. i.e. About 5 years after he made the piece.

Fuck the copyright parasites whining about this.

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zugi
1 hour ago
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The US Constitution authorizes Congress to enact copyrights with limited scope:

> To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

One could argue that a colored box promotes neither science nor useful arts, and therefore applying any copyright protection at all to this non-useful art is unconstitutional.

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