Croatia declared free of landmines after 31 years
329 points
8 hours ago
| 16 comments
| glashrvatske.hrt.hr
| HN
Keyframe
1 hour ago
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As a Croatian, I'm really glad to hear these type of news. However, also as a Croatian, I don't quite buy the news. I'm sure great progress was made but it's never going to reach 100%; It's just the nature of these damn things in combination with our geography and where the frontlines were.
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input_sh
44 minutes ago
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It means there are no known areas that are still littered with landmines, but yes, that's not a guarantee there aren't any.

Not Croatian but Bosnian, 2030 is our target for this milestone and we have to keep de-mining ~70 square kilometres every year to be able to hit that milestone.

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spookie
1 hour ago
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Hell you still find explosives from WW2 all over. It really is difficult.
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zabzonk
47 minutes ago
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True that. I used to work in the Netherlands, and sometimes it seemed like every other week the rail network was disrupted by a newly-discovered unexploded bomb, left over from the plastering the Allied air forces gave the Dutch railways.
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CorrectHorseBat
54 minutes ago
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WW2? We're still finding explosives from WW1 in Belgium
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Keyframe
57 minutes ago
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Indeed. With landmines from 90's at least general areas are known, there's signage and if you're not being stupid by venturing way past signage it's all really safe to be around.
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pjmlp
2 hours ago
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I did some off road travelling in Croatia about 15 years ago, thanks GPS driving us into some farming roads.

Only when I got out of it, I realised how stupid idea that was to keep following the GPS, on some country side villages the markings of the war were still visible, with abandoned buildings full of bullet holes.

Naturally having mines still around was a possibility that I completly forgot about.

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ulrikrasmussen
2 hours ago
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Something I have really wondered is, why aren't there stronger incentives to build mines with a mechanism that disables them after a certain time has passed? There must be tactical and strategical reasons which are regarded more important, but surely the party using them for defending their own land ought to have an interest in not having to deal with this threat for decades after the war has ended, and an aggressor who wishes to take over an area should have the same incentives.

Or are the reasons technical, that it is simply too difficult to develop a reliable mechanism for disabling them?

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krisoft
1 hour ago
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Modern landmines do have safety features like what you describe.

For example consider this Department of Defence policy from 2020: https://media.defense.gov/2020/Jan/31/2002242359/-1/-1/1/DOD...

“The Department will continue its commitment not to employ persistent landmines. For the purposes of this policy, ‘persistent landmines’ means landmines that do not incorporate self-destruction mechanisms and self-deactivation features. The Department will only employ, develop, produce, or otherwise acquire landmines that are non-persistent, meaning they must possess self destruction mechanisms and self- deactivation features.”

“ For example, all activated landmines, regardless of whether they are remotely delivered or not, will be designed and constructed to self-destruct in 30 days or less after emplacement and will possess a back-up self-deactivation feature. Some landmines, regardless of whether they are remotely delivered or not, will be designed and constructed to self-destruct in shorter periods of time, such as two hours or forty-eight hours.”

This distinguishes “self-destruct” where the mine blows itself up and “self-deactivation” where the mine disarms itself. The first is safer because it doesn’t leave explosive material behind, which could chemicaly detoriate and become unstable decades later. The second is used as a failsafe in case the self-destruct fails.

> Or are the reasons technical

They certainly were when the really old mines were made. Some of them are nothing more than just spring loaded pressure plates. But today modern landmines are much more sophisticated. Some of them can distinguish the seismic signature or a truck from a tank. There are also radio controlled mine fields where soldiers can remotely activate / deactivate the whole mine field as the threat evolves.

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flimflamm
1 hour ago
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Cost/manufacturing complexity. If you are country struggling to defend your self you don't think problems in 30 years if today problem is does the country exists or not. Might be difficult to put your self to a small defending countries shoes which is absolute running our of resources.
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halapro
25 minutes ago
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I get it, I don’t think a timer really adds that much cost and complexity. "If he wanted to, he would" scenario.
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Cthulhu_
1 hour ago
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As someone else pointed out, the short story is cost. Mines are cheap, make them more advanced and they are not cheap.

That said, even if the trigger is disabled, it's still an explosive device and should still be cleared (or never placed in the first place, as the Ottawa treaty says which the US, China, Russia, India and Pakistan are not a part of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty)

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eitland
2 hours ago
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There is always the option to use battery (some modern mines use this),for example RAAMS.

The problem is of the enemy know you use only mines that work for max n hours or m days they just wait for n + 1 hours or m + 1 days.

There is a lot more to say about this, but there are probably people way more qualified than be here to explain it.

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antonkochubey
1 hour ago
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There are tons of possible options in between n hours and 3 decades
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ultratalk
2 hours ago
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I'm guessing it's the latter, because you have to keep the mine-disabling mechanisms working and powered up through possible adverse weather and environmental conditions for long enough that the conflict has a fair chance of having ended.
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TiredOfLife
2 hours ago
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That is exactly how modern mines work
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ra
6 hours ago
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I stayed near Dubrovnik in the summer of 2005. There was a wildfire burning on on the hills behind us.

The fire traversed the hillside, and every hour or two a landmine would explode.

This was ten years after the war.

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segmondy
3 hours ago
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10 years is a long time, but 10 years after a war is not a long time. Damages to building still remains, mines and plenty of unexploded ordinances will remain, and psychological scars are still very strong.
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senko
2 hours ago
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Just this week I talked to a person doing tree pruning/forestry, they were negotiating a job in a rural area in Croatia (wider Karlovac area).

The particular patch of land is still suspected to contain mines, although "in theory" they were all cleared out.

The client didn't want to pay for the minesweeeping tech team to ensure safety, the workers didn't want to wade into a forest that might still be mined.

I suspect this is not an isolated case. It's far from over.

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locusofself
5 hours ago
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I had the good fortune of going to Croatia (as an American) for work about 10 years ago, and I milked that trip hard. What a beautiful country. Dubrovnik, Split, Hvar Island, it was pretty magical.
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yieldcrv
4 hours ago
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Conflict zones are the most beautiful places

They make me immediately go “oh I get it”

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testdelacc1
3 hours ago
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What a strange and sweeping comment. There’s a conflict going on in Darfur. Does Darfur make you go “oh I get it”?
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Tade0
2 hours ago
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IIRC most of the fighting is happening over the southern, fertile lands.
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elAhmo
2 hours ago
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Placing landmines is probably among the shittiest and most vile things someone can do.

Knowing that ten, twenty, maybe 50 years after a conflict ends a completely innocent and unrelated person, maybe even not born at the time you did it, might die or get permanently disabled is a sick move.

Place where I grew up is still full of landmines (Bosnia and Herzegovina), and some of the people who placed those mines are government officials today, loved by EU because of their natural resources.

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comrade1234
46 minutes ago
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When it's a choice between existence and annihilation it's not so difficult a choice.

For example, Finland has a program that will mine the entire border with Russia in just hours if Russia invades.

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wesselbindt
1 hour ago
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It is absolutely evil. Placing mines instantly puts you in the bad guy category as far as I'm concerned, no matter whom you claim you're "targetting". The Baltics withdrawing from the Ottawa treaty was an absolute disgrace. Indefensible.
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yason
2 hours ago
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Agreed.

Also I think that if you live next to a warmongering country you certainly care more about making a military invasion the shittiest and the most vile thing for the aggressor that you can think of and landmines are cheap and effective there.

I think it's a sufficient trade off that landmines self-disable themselves in, say, 5 years or so. If the war continues you'll keep planting more and when it ends you'll just wait a few years and go collect them.

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Chyzwar
2 hours ago
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In conflict between equals, landmines are the only practical way to restrict the mobility of the enemy. That's why 20% of Ukraine is contaminated by mines. If you were official and your choices would be losing and more people dying or placing more landmines that can be cleared over 20 years, what would you do?
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wahnfrieden
1 hour ago
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They can’t and haven’t
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andrewflnr
4 hours ago
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I wonder how long it will take in Ukraine.

Actually at the rate we're going, there will still be active minefield defenses for most of our lifespans.

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stevekemp
3 hours ago
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Poland withdrew from the Ottawa Convention last month, with the aim of being able to lay anti-personnel mines along its eastern border.

Whether it does or not is an open-question, and while I understand it of course, the idea we're increasing the use of mines is a sad day. They're so indiscriminate and will no doubt cause injuries far into the future.

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postepowanieadm
3 hours ago
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No one is going to build minefields, too populated area, too many wild animals. It's mostly about automatic mining - https://www.hsw.pl/produkty/pojazd-minowania-narzutowego-bao...
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nolist_policy
2 hours ago
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> The BAOBAB-K Mine Laying Vehicle allows the laying of minefields of various sizes, mine densities, and self-clearance times.

The self-clearing is interesting and I hindsight auch an obvious thing to implement.

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dopa42365
3 hours ago
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There's no border wall, just a typical bike road next to a small fence. So no, unless Poland is planning to blow up their own civilians, they won't mine their own country lol.
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Xylakant
2 hours ago
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My wife’s part of the Family has a house with view of the border to Belarusia. It used to be a small fence just in front of a wood, but that’s long past. It’s truly a wall now.
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gljiva
2 hours ago
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Placing landmines systematically during peacetime by a stable government-ran military should at least make clearing mines easier, and minefields better marked for locals. So, it's not completely indiscriminate. If it decreases war-related life loss (both direct and indirect), it's net positive
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wiseowise
2 hours ago
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Putin’s war, bro. It’s aaall Putin laying the mines.
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bandrami
40 minutes ago
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Huge and great news. Sri Lanka is hoping to get certification later this year too.
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hyperman1
2 hours ago
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I live near part of the WW1 trenches. Most mines, bombs, etc. have been removed for decades now. Still, there are patches where the ground is so polluted with e.g. lead that nothing would grow. We tend to use that ground for companies and industrial things, but no worries, its completely safe for your health, citizen.
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gregjw
6 hours ago
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I wonder when/if places like vietnam will ever achieve this.

Hell, Australia still has WW2 mines.

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Animats
5 hours ago
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France still has WWI unexploded ordnance, and keep-out areas are still being de-mined. This has been going on for a century now. About 900 tons of explosives are removed each year. Completion in 700 years at the current rate.[1]

[1] https://www.warhistoryonline.com/world-war-i/the-red-zone-la...

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scns
2 hours ago
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That is mind blowing, no pun intended.
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strken
4 hours ago
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Does Australia have any landmines? I was under the impression that we had some areas with sea mines which had been swept but still weren't guaranteed safe, and that was it.
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riffraff
5 hours ago
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Is that actual land mines or generic lost explosives and unexploded bombs?

Cause the latter is pretty common in Europe too, but I'm surprised you have actually minefields which haven't been cleared up in Australia.

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MattGaiser
5 hours ago
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I imagine a lot has to do with motivation. Canada has UXO that it doesn't clean up as land is abundant.
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adamnemecek
5 hours ago
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This feels like a perfect use case for AI.
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HelloUsername
2 hours ago
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How do they know? (Serious question)
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kqr
2 hours ago
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Because

> all known minefields have been cleared

When clearing minefields, one does not miss mines, because that would be lethal! Every cube inch is carefully mapped. It is extremely hard work.

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ithkuil
2 hours ago
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Is it possible there are mine fields that are not known yet?
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saidnooneever
1 hour ago
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just intime to place new ones for WW3
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KingMob
4 hours ago
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I visited Vientiane in Laos a couple years ago. One of the more depressing places to visit there is the COPE Center.

It's a group that provides prosthetics to people who have lost body parts due to landmines left over from the Vietnam War.

Even decades later, there are areas in Laos that have so many unexploded bomblets, it's dangerous to do stuff there, or even build.

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gethly
3 hours ago
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Meanwhile.... Poland.
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TiredOfLife
2 hours ago
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Poland and other countries that just abandoned the mine treaty border russia and belarus. You know, the country that launched and the country that allowed its land to launch largest war in europe since WW2.
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klez
2 hours ago
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Yes. But the what's the point of a convention about weapons that you only observe during peacetime and abandon as soon as war is at your gates?

I mean, I get it, I would be scared shitless too if I had Russia at my border. I'm not saying that Poland is bad for doing this (but I'm not saying it's good either). It's more of a general observation about this kind of treaties: (relatively) easy to get into during peacetime, hard to uphold when shit hits the fan.

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rwyinuse
27 minutes ago
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From my point of view as a Finn, the convention is indeed pointless as long as Russia doesn't obey it. No point avoiding land mines in our Eastern border in case of a war, when Russia will mine any territory they capture anyway. Besides, our mines are much more likely to be marked correctly to maps, and probably will have a function that deactivates them after certain time.
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toomuchtodo
8 hours ago
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bobmcnamara
5 hours ago
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Oof, only 90% survival rate for deminers.
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smokeyfish
5 hours ago
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Drones can help these days
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lukan
4 hours ago
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Can drones sniff explosives? I think that would be very expensive, they can have metal detectors, and mark suspicious sites for someone (or something, like a different digging drone) else to check.

But rats can sniff explosives and do so succesfully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magawa

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ultratalk
2 hours ago
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> He spent a number of weeks mentoring 20 newly-recruited rats

How does that work for a rat? Sounds interesting.

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lukan
2 hours ago
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I don't know how it works for rats, but I assume it is like with dogs. If you have already a trained dog, you make the same exercises with the trained and the untrained dog, so the untrained dog can just watch what the trained dog does and imitate it.
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TiredOfLife
2 hours ago
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The flying ones can use thermal cameras. The mines and surrounding areas change temperature differently.

Then the ground ones do the actual demining.

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lukan
2 hours ago
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But this only works for mines not or only lightly covered by earth I assume?

There has been lots of rain falling from the sky, moving earth, since the mines were laid.

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