What if the Hormuz closure will not be brief?
104 points
1 day ago
| 10 comments
| lloydslist.com
| HN
zmmmmm
1 day ago
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I think the real threat is that if you tip the Iranian conflict over into asymmetrical warfare, then nobody can stop it - ever. It seems to be almost the intent with the US and Israel especially announcing explicit intent to keep removing anybody who attempts to form a system of government.

So you'll have a permanently aggrieved population with nothing to lose saturated with know-how and materials for building missiles and drones who will just keep taking pot shots at ships and possibly commercial airliners. They don't have to "close" the straight - just make it hazardous enough that it becomes permanently very risky to sail through there. They can go dormant for 3 months and then send 30 drones at a single ship.

I'm not sure who in the strategic planning decided that no system of government for 90 million people was a good idea, but it seems quite insane to me.

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citrin_ru
2 hours ago
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> if you tip the Iranian conflict over into asymmetrical warfare, then nobody can stop it - ever

It's already asymmetytrical. And it could last as long as the current regime is in power. When the power structure will fall money will stop flowing too.

Huthies in Yemen look undistructable because they are supported (with moneny and weapons) by Iran. Who will bank-roll IRGC fighters when the government will collapse? China in theory culd but they depend on oil so will not contriube to prologed closing of the strait.

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expedition32
33 minutes ago
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There seems to be the idea that if you remove the regime a normal country will rise from the ashes. It is more likely that Iran will disintegrate and spiral into a civil war.
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ajam1507
18 hours ago
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> I think the real threat is that if you tip the Iranian conflict over into asymmetrical warfare

We're there already. We've been there. There's nothing symmetrical about this war.

Israel is basically unscathed in this war despite Iran launching barrages of missiles and drones. They were already fighting Israel asymmetrically by supporting Hamas and Hezbollah. They knew they could never fight a fair war against the US and Israel.

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Jordan-117
1 day ago
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In fairness to the Trump administration, they did have several acceptable candidates in mind for a transitional government.

They just accidentally killed them all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/03/world/middleeast/iranian-...

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queenkjuul
1 day ago
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In fairness i don't really believe them, i don't think anyone in the Iranian line of succession would've worked with the US.
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mkoubaa
1 day ago
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Actually it was the other party in the war that killed them all
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pfannkuchen
1 day ago
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And they happen to have a different set of interests, which they may choose to follow over shared interests.
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throwaw12
1 day ago
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> In fairness to the Trump administration

Probably, Iranians also had several accepted candidates in mind to lead the US, but they didn't attack because they had some opinions about foreign government

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Gud
1 day ago
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myvoiceismypass
20 hours ago
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What I find interesting is that Trump officials says Trump was the target here, but the guy was arrested in July of 2024 - which is when Biden was still in office.
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text0404
1 day ago
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Sure. Just like Trump was an informant for the FBI on Epstein island.
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Gud
1 day ago
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I don't believe it's impossible Donald Trump spoke against his friends to the feds. I think it's likely.
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sigwinch
23 hours ago
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It was a convenient misunderstanding about a call to the Palm Beach Sheriff. The FBI has a recording of the call, but probably ambiently from the Sheriff’s side. It’s a small ray of innocence for a guy like Trump. And he forgot all about it until by luck it was in the Epstein files.
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jaybrendansmith
20 hours ago
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This is all a double bluff to solve Global Warming. Make it impossible to trade oil, everyone will be forced to switch to solar and wind.
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entwife
18 hours ago
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Yes, doubling the price of oil, and setting random maybe-not-enforceable tariffs and embargoes, is a net positive because it has the unintended effect of reducing carbon dioxide emissions.
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widenitnow
15 hours ago
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They could always widen the straight...
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whattheheckheck
14 hours ago
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They could nuke both sides and make it bigger?
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jiggawatts
4 hours ago
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As a “bonus”, all the dust blown into the stratosphere by the nukes would also conveniently cool the Earth!
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standeven
1 day ago
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China’s move toward solar and wind seems more prescient than ever.
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carefree-bob
6 hours ago
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China is using more coal, gas, and oil than ever. They went from using 1.5 billion tons of thermal coal in 2000 to 4.6 Billion tons today and they will reach 4.7 Billion in 2027.

They did "pledge" to "limit increases" in coal, but there is a big difference from limiting increases to "moving away from" coal.

As for oil, it is a similar story. Oil use doubled from 2005 to 2025, but they pledged to "slow increases" of oil to something less than the 7% annual increases per year that were the last 10 years average (over the business cycle).

Natural gas has tripled from 3 to 9.3 billion cubic feet per day from 2014 to 2023.

The prescient part was building a pipeline to deliver oil and gas directly from Russia as well as building trade routes through Russia and the central Asian nations that give them a direct route to their energy suppliers (Including Iran, which can supply China without ever going through the straight of Hormuz).

Energy security is very important, and China has invested heavily to build pipelines and trade agreements that keep the oil and gas flowing, and they have moved away from buying Australian coal to increasing their own domestic coal production, reaching 4.8 Billion tons mined and on track to hit 5 Billion tons in the next few years.

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jasomill
5 hours ago
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I have to laugh as progressively higher time derivatives are invoked to claim improvements. "The rate of increase in the deficit slowed this month" and the like.
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carefree-bob
5 hours ago
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Yes! I see this everywhere.
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tpm
1 hour ago
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> China is using more coal, gas, and oil than ever.

Well, no. Coal peaked at 4.9 billion tonnes in 2024.

https://www.iea.org/reports/coal-2024/executive-summary https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-coal-power-drops-in-chi...

> Oil use doubled from 2005 to 2025

yes, and gasoline production is trending down too:

https://www.mysteel.net/news/5109188-china-2025-gasoline-pro...

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maxglute
1 day ago
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Renewables... and coal. If shit hits fan it's not just hammering EVs (including trucking/freight) but hammering coal to liquid/olefin to make diesel and plastics. This not talked about much, long term strategic hedge / resource autarky looks like electrify everything, and domestic coal+oil for industry/petchem. If Hormuz long term, PRC going to be ramping up coal for industrial feedstock including fuels, even if it's much more polluting or expensive, but expensive is relative, $80 barrel oil = coal + extra processing becomes economical.
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0wis
1 day ago
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EU rollback on reducing gas liability, especially the widely debated rule on « no gas car after 2030 », feels now laughable. Maybe the reason why « technocrats » are good rulers is because they use science and data to do it.
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cyber_kinetist
1 day ago
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The problem with the EU is that now they depend on rare earth minerals / solar panels / etc. for their infrastructure, which means more dependency on China. However, as the war unfolds, I bet the EU will certainly want to cozy up more with China than whatever the hell that is the Middle East and the US (and hell no they don't want to depend on Russia either!)
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eigenspace
2 hours ago
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While depending on China for Solar panels is of course a liability, it's a very very different liability from relying on fossil fuel imports.

A solar panel has an effective lifetime of 20-30 years. A barrel of oil is literally set on fire.

If China stopped selling solar panels, there wouldnt be any energy crisis, just an inability to install *new* panels.

Same goes for the battery dependencies we have on Chinese imports.

Not a perfect situation of course, but there are some clever things the EU is doing about it. For instance, the recycling requirements is creating a local industry of people who intimately know all the components and construction of Chinese panels and batteries, and these people will be vital in kickstarting the domestic industry if China tries something. It also means that we're getting better and better at recovering rare earth minerals from decommissioned products, and we are building domestic reserves.

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dzink
1 day ago
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Rare earth minerals are often all over the place, they are just very messy to get to and that gets in the way of EU pollution regulations. China is not a sole producer - they are just cheap enough to make mining elsewhere not worth the hassle. That will change fast if they bottleneck the supply.
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danaris
1 day ago
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And once enough panels start nearing the end of their lifetime, it's likely that we should be able to recover nearly all the rare earth minerals from them with proper recycling. They don't actually get used up the way, say, fossil fuels do.
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roryirvine
1 day ago
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Solar panels contain negligible amounts of rare earths, compared to the amount used in wind / gas / steam turbines. They're also still used in oil & natural gas refining (though less than in the past).

Fossil fuel generators are most reliant on them, wind less so, solar barely at all.

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danaris
19 hours ago
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Oh, I completely agree—but they're so frequently used as a gotcha for why the rise of solar is just trading one "foreign master" for another. "Oh no, solar panels rely on rare earth minerals, so that means you have to kowtow to China!!!"

And it's true that there is some in them, so it's good to have at least a long-term answer for how we deal with them.

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namibj
9 hours ago
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> Oh, I completely agree—but they're so frequently used as a gotcha for why the rise of solar is just trading one "foreign master" for another. "Oh no, solar panels rely on rare earth minerals, so that means you have to kowtow to China!!!"

> And it's true that there is some in them, so it's good to have at least a long-term answer for how we deal with them.

It's the old saying about a man and fish and giving vs. teaching.

Solar panels bought now, at least the quality glass-glass kind, doesn't really go bad in a way that makes them depreciate at-all-quickly. If in locations that are not themselves at a premium, so lower yield only matters if maintenance overhead per yield becomes so bad it's cheaper to replace& upgrade, they can be expected to stay there for 30~50 years depending on how fast they'll mechanically fall apart after their warranty expires (which is expected to be the duration until which most stay alive). I'd guess something like an agricultural east/west fence install would stay more towards 50y and get individual modules replaced when they break, as they're easy to get to unlike roof/wall installs and the like where they're hard to get to and given they are very low complexity in mounting system ("fence panel") there's little engineering complexity in retrofitting a plain new future panel of the same physical size and sufficiently similar voltage/current.

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Bombthecat
12 hours ago
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Solar panels hold and work for more then fifty years..
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Balinares
14 hours ago
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Rare earth minerals are not consumed in the process of generating solar energy, whereas once you've burned your oil to generate energy, it's gone and you need to buy more. That makes a pretty damn major difference.
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Hikikomori
1 day ago
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China is looking pretty good compared to the alternative.
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kortilla
1 day ago
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Solar and wind is more of a nat gas and coal substitution. They are still heavily dependent on oil for transportation.
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bryanlarsen
1 day ago
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Not for long. 75% of their rail network is electrified and 50% of the semi tractors sold in 2025 were electric.
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cosmicgadget
19 hours ago
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Seems like tankers passing through the straits will always be at risk so long as the IRGC (or any irregular faction) remains intact with access to drones.

Seems like the only options are reaching a deal with whatever the new regime is or occupying the coastal areas.

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void_ai_2026
4 hours ago
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Built a simple stagflation transmission model based on published parameters (RBC Economics, Oxford Economics, IMF WEO 2023, EIA):

At current Brent ~$109 (+82% from Jan baseline of $60): - US CPI projected: 7.6% (was 2.8%) - EU CPI projected: 6.0% (was 2.4%) - Global GDP: 1.8% (barely above the recession-risk threshold) - Food CPI uplift: +8 pp (energy direct + fertilizer lag, 3-6 months out) - Historical analog: 1990 Gulf War — 8-month recession, 6.3% peak inflation

Scenario table (if sustained): $100/bbl: US CPI 6.7%, GDP 2.0%, pump $4.08 $110/bbl: US CPI 7.6%, GDP 1.8%, pump $4.32 (← current) $130/bbl: US CPI 9.5%, GDP 1.2%, pump $4.80 $150/bbl: US CPI 11.3%, GDP 0.7%, pump $5.28 (SEVERE risk)

The structural trap: at these CPI levels the Fed hikes, while GDP is already near stall speed. That's not a recession — it's stagflation, which is harder to escape because the usual policy tools work against each other.

What's different from 2022 Ukraine: fertilizer transmission. Gulf seaborne ammonia/urea is ~25% of global trade. Gas feedstock shock + war-risk insurance explosion = food inflation spike coming in Q3/Q4 as spring planting shortfalls propagate. Ukraine was a wheat/sunflower problem. This is an energy-into-food problem.

The LloydsList article asks the right question: the consensus always assumes brief. The asymmetry of being wrong in the long direction is enormous.

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dzink
1 day ago
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Putin’s war ambitions profit most from the scare around Hormuz. His sanctions get removed to provide alternative supply, he can charge exorbitant prices, and he gets leverage. Since he is also providing targeting information for Iran to shoot at, it feels like this is an avatar joystick war for him to distract from his Ukraine disaster.
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conception
7 hours ago
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Always strange how the Trump administration’s policies always seem to have a benefit for Russia… Just a fluke coincidence that keeps happening I guess.
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pibaker
15 minutes ago
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Do you seriously think bombing a major Russian ally that has been materially supporting Russian war efforts is somehow a pro Russia move?

Every drone Iran has launched at Bahrain and the UAE could have been sold to Russia and used against Ukraine had this war not started.

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antonymoose
55 minutes ago
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The Trump administration is slowly strangling Russia and China’s allies. First Syria, then Venezuela. Cuba is struggling without Venezuela oil. We’re bombing the life out of their drone supplier Iran.

In what way does that benefit Russia?

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expedition32
25 minutes ago
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The Trump administration is slowly strangling it's European allies.

And China is buying oil on the global market with money just like everyone else. Unless you are advocating for an oil embargo on China in which case congratulations you just started WW3.

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antonymoose
3 minutes ago
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> The Trump administration is slowly strangling it's European allies.

Perhaps, but this is ultimately orthogonal to the discussion “is this good or bad for Russia?”

I’m not sure what the intent of your reply is here but I’ve not advocated for violence. Simply pointed out that it’s countering the Russia-China bloc countries.

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Qwertious
1 day ago
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Putin mainly benefits from the increased price of oil - black-market oil prices are a discount relative to standard-market oil, so he'll have a much healthier budget, even if his sanctions stay "airtight".

China benefits here - they import Russian crude oil over land, so their costs won't increase as much as the international market (unless Russia uses the leverage to absorb all the benefit, which I doubt), but more crucially: the alternative to oil fuel is renewables, and China dominates renewables so a spike in demand for solar/batteries will be a godsend for them.

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thisislife2
23 hours ago
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No, they don't import crude oil, but Russian gas by land pipelines.
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vkou
1 day ago
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> China benefits here - they import Russian crude oil over land,

No, they don't. 54% of their oil comes from the middle east. Only 20% comes from Russia.

China does have a healthy oil reserve at the moment, so this may be marginally less bad for them. And yes, their electricity comes from renewables, but like in any other country, all of their logistics run on diesel.

By starting this war, the United States, unsatisfied with flipping the table on bilateral trade with other countries just flipped the table on multipolar international trade. What a time to be alive.

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bryanlarsen
1 day ago
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Most of their trains are electric, and 50% of semi tractors sold in 2025 were electric. Lots of their logistics run without diesel.
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orwin
1 day ago
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But at least for now, their fret trains have limited reach. They have a big country, with sparse population once you leave the coastal areas. I think this will help them push their railroad infrastructure though.
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nixon_why69
1 day ago
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It's not a sparse population until you're significantly further inland than Chengdu. A billion people are living in an area that's roughly comparable to west-of-missippi USA. It's cities and high-density farmland, nothing else. If there's a few square meters of unoccupied space, somebody planted vegetables there.
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bryanlarsen
23 hours ago
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75% of track is electrified.
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alwayspossible
15 hours ago
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Seems to me that a conglomerate of oil companies could have funded a canal and reduce this risk a long time ago. Just around this choke point in global logistics.
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pibaker
13 hours ago
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajar_Mountains

"Just" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

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thatmiddleway
15 hours ago
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I think scarcity and price spikes are a feature not a bug.
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jazzyjackson
15 hours ago
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My favorite conspiracy so far is the Qataris would like Iranian production to be destroyed because they drink the same milkshake

Good thing the Qataris have no influence over the American president /s

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pfannkuchen
14 hours ago
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The Qataris wouldn’t even have to have direct influence if they more are likely to be long term friendly. I hadn’t heard this before, it would actually make a lot of sense and wouldn’t even really be a conspiracy theory just a theory (unless we consider anything multiple people in government do together to be a conspiracy).
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Animats
1 day ago
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It's not a big threat to the US. The US is a net oil exporter, has the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, and, if absolutely necessary, Trump could make up with Canada so those oil imports restart.

Taiwan, Japan, and Korea, though - totally dependent on imports for oil.

Something that most pundits have missed: unlike all other US wars since Korea, the US can't end this war by pulling out. Iran, unlike all US combat opponents from Vietnam to Venezuela, has the demonstrated ability to strike well beyond its borders. This war isn't over until both sides say it's over.

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tzs
1 day ago
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The US is a net exporter of petroleum (crude oil plus refined products) but from what Google tells me it is still a net importer of crude oil. It also tells me 75% of what goes through Hormuz is crude.

Also, domestic crude of mostly light, sweet crude whereas many US refineries are designed to deal with heavy, sour crude. Google is telling me 80% of the crude that goes through Hormuz is heavy, sour crude.

Does any of this raise the impact disruptions of Hormuz would have on the US?

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Qwertious
1 day ago
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>Also, domestic crude of mostly light, sweet crude whereas many US refineries are designed to deal with heavy, sour crude. Google is telling me 80% of the crude that goes through Hormuz is heavy, sour crude.

The US has some of the best chemists in the world; light sweet crude is easy to refine but heavy sour crude is hard, so US refineries refining light sweet would be a waste of their talents - better to export it out for newbies to refine and buy the harder-to-refine and therefore cheaper heavy sour crude. But if heavy sour becomes more expensive, then the US will switch to the easymode option in a heartbeat.

An increased cost of inputs will always hurt the entire industry, but it won't particularly hurt the US any more than anyone else, and will probably hurt them the least - especially when they have plenty of domestic shale oil that will be financially viable to extract if prices go up.

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whatever1
1 day ago
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Iran has nobody in charge to lead any sort of negotiations or to order stand down. Now it really is guerrilla war. The type that never ends.
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throwaw12
1 day ago
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Iran should negotiate with whom?

If someone backstabbed me twice while we were in negotiations, I would not give them 3rd chance for negotiations, US and Israel really f....d their reputation after 2 attacks while in negotiations

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petre
1 day ago
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That's exactly what the Iranian fireign minister said.

"The fact is that we don’t have any positive experience of negotiating with the United States. You know, especially with this administration. We negotiated twice last year and this year, and then in the middle of negotiations, they attacked us," Araghchi said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/world/iran/iran-foreign-minister-int...

To add insult to injury, the US also sent two clowns, Witkoff and Kushner, to negotiate, so it was quite obvious the negotiations would fail.

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kortilla
1 day ago
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They said that, but there is also no evidence of them negotiating in good faith. Showing up to the table and just dragging the process out for years isn’t negotiating, it’s an act.
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throwaw12
1 day ago
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There is no evidence that they acted in bad faith as well, most of us don't have access to the briefings of those negotiations

But here is what we know:

* US acted in bad faith - because it planned attack in around December 2025

* Oman, mediator of negotiations told they were almost there with negotiations and Iran mostly agreed to conditions and boom, next day it got bombed: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/2/28/peace-within-reach-...

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petre
1 day ago
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This is how long negotiations took on the last agreement. 20 months. But I guess the current administration doesn't have that kind of patience and would rather blow them up instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Comprehensive_Plan_of_Ac...

We'll see if that works or wether another jihadist regime rises from their ashes.

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thisislife2
23 hours ago
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There is evidence they negotiated in good-faith because they deliberately involved a third-party as a mediator. Oman, who was involved in the mediation said a nuclear deal was nearly done (where the Iranians agreed to completely scrap the Obama nuclear deal for a new Trump nuclear treaty) when the US changed its mind and decided to attack them.
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piva00
1 day ago
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It took years to negotiate the nuclear deal that Obama got, it was productive, it was good enough to keep nuclear proliferation in check.

Comes dumbo and rips that off, goes back to "deal making" without any diplomacy, bomb them twice during the negotiation process after ripping off the previous deal.

Seems like the whole new negotiations from Trump's admin was just putting up an act after all... Quite disgusting.

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rayiner
1 day ago
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Guerrilla war requires people at the grass roots to care. Is that true in Iran? Venezuela seems to have quieted down already.
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ncallaway
1 day ago
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The IRGC is 125k-150k people. Many of them are pot committed to the current government, because the IRGC has done... unforgivable things that a new government would be likely to punish.

Venezuela is also run by the same security apparatus and government as it was before. We didn't attempt to turn over the entire government.

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rasz
1 day ago
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>The IRGC is 125k-150k people.

Takes Ukrainians 4 months to kill that amount. What you are saying winning is quite doable.

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ncallaway
5 hours ago
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You... simply cannot take the numbers from one war and blindly apply them to a totally different one. The comparison isn't apt for a number of reasons.

First, Russians are generally on the offensive, which means pushing into Ukrainian controlled territory.

Often, they are pushing into defensive lines that have had years of fortification.

Second, there are a lot more Russians in Ukraine. To kill 125k people, you have to find 125k people. It's a lot easier to find a Russian in Ukraine that it will be to find an IRGC soldier in Iran if there's an invasion and guerilla operations in response.

In Iraq after the conventional military phase, the US killed ~26k insurgents over the course of a decade (and also captured ~120k).

Iran is bigger than Iraq, has far more people than Iraq, and has much bigger logistical burdens for an invasion.

I could believe that the US Military is quite capable of running some small scale targeted operations within Iran successfully. We can probably pull off operations to do things like attempt to seize and secure uranium stockpiles if we know where they are (though such an operation could also go catastrophically badly, too).

I think the US Military could invade Iran and topple the regime, but it would be an enormous lift, and I think there's almost no chance we would have the political will to sustain the costs and casualties that a total invasion would entail.

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anabab
15 hours ago
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thats in a scenario with soldiers pushing into no mans land under permanent drone control. Israel demonstrates much lower stats when enemy hides underground. I would imagine having no boots on the ground will lower the numbers further.
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dragonwriter
15 hours ago
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Venezuela wasn’t a regime change war it was a US-backed palace coup that left the entire regime except for the guy at its head in place in exchange for a narrow set of policy favors to the US.

It has little in common with Iran, which is more like the 2003 Iraq war (but, so far, without committing ground troops, but there is no way to maintain that with Trump’s stated goal of “unconditional surrender”; that’s going to require a ground forces occupation at a minimum, and probably a ground forces invasion to acheive it) than it is like the recent intervention in Venezuela.

Even if they are not particular fond of the regime that is in the process of being destroyed, the Iranian people are likely to resist that, just as occurred in Iraq (with the most significant resistance there coming from forces that were opposed to Saddam’s regime and which had been actively suppressed by it while it was in power.)

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expedition32
16 minutes ago
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Americans have the uncanny ability to make everyone hate their guts. A US occupation will inevitably breed resistance.
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orwin
1 day ago
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Maduro was such a bad leader that his prime minister sold him to the US.

Which means now Venezuela is still a chavist regime, but not under US embargo anymore. This will improve their economy a great deal, and if the regime doesn't capture all the profits for itself, will also improve the QOL of all Venezuelians, hopefully.

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anigbrowl
7 hours ago
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Getting bombed tends to make people care a lot, just not for the people doing the bombing.
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Qwertious
1 day ago
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Iran's theocracy is pretty ideologically motivated, they're not just in it for the money.
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rayiner
17 hours ago
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Totally correct. I just don’t have a good handle on how deep the theocracy runs in society.
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fmajid
11 hours ago
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Probably as much as MAGA is in the US.
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rayiner
39 minutes ago
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MAGA is just 1990s liberalism. Progressives are the ones experiencing a religious awakening, complete with all sorts of taboos and unfalsifiable shibboleths.
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dragonwriter
15 hours ago
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> It's not a big threat to the US. The US is a net oil exporter

The US being a net oil exporter doesn't make the domestic market independent of the global market (especially over the short to intermediate term), for a large variety of reasons.

> has the Strategic Petroleum Reserve

Which whille partial refilled from the 2022 drawdowns is still at rather low levels by historical standards.

> and, if absolutely necessary, Trump could make up with Canada

He could try (though I don’t think even that is in his character), that doesn’t mean he would succceed.

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reliabilityguy
1 day ago
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> has the demonstrated ability to strike well beyond its borders.

Yep, now if IR survives, I see no reason for them not to double down on even longer range missiles. Like, why not?

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UltraSane
2 hours ago
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Eventually the world will get so fed up with them they WILL invade.
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tejohnso
1 day ago
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> Trump could make up with Canada so those oil imports restart.

Sounds like Trump hubris. Probably just what he'd expect. And then he'd accuse Canada of "behaving terribly" if things didn't go his way, and he'd reach for his tariff paddle.

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verdverm
1 day ago
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Fortunately, his handy paddle is no longer available (the one where he can make changes on whims, eg. when a commercial upsets him). He still has other options, they require process and need to be specific, setting aside the short term tariffs levied after his tantrum tariffs were rebuked by SCOTUS.
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beached_whale
1 day ago
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I don't think the oil exports from Canada ever stopped. If anything, they have grown.
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dylan604
1 day ago
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> It's not a big threat to the US. The US is a net oil exporter,

The thing is that the US exported oil is sweet crude, and our own refineries are not made for that type of oil. So for the petroleum products used within the US need the heavy oil that is imported. So if the world goes tits up so that the US can only use the oil it produces, it would take time before the US could refine it.

>Trump could make up with Canada

I'm sorry, did this suddenly become a comedy?

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hollerith
1 day ago
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>So for the petroleum products used within the US need the heavy oil that is imported.

Is that really true? I've heard experts say that sweet crude is easy to refine. I've always thought that the reason US refiners bother with sour crude is that they're better at refining it than non-US refiners are, so they make a little more money that way.

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rainsford
13 hours ago
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As I understand it, light sweet crude is in fact easier to refine, but refineries still have to be set up for it to get optimal or economically viable results, which US refineries largely are not. US refineries certainly could switch, but the process of doing so would be expensive and time consuming.
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dylan604
1 day ago
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https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/america-produces-enough-oil-...

This link is just one of many that all suggest that the US is just not set up to refine light crude.

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hollerith
1 day ago
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That link doesn't clear up anything for me
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dylan604
1 day ago
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I'm not going to lmgtfy with other links. If you have something contradictory to show, then by all means show. I'm never one to be unwilling to learn something new, but I will not just accept the comment of a random stranger on the interweb providing no supporting evidence for their position that opposes my current understanding.
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hollerith
16 hours ago
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idiotsecant
1 day ago
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That's not at all the case. We have refineries that can handle everything from sweet to sour to Canadian tar sands
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dylan604
1 day ago
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That goes against every thing I've ever read or heard. I'm no oil man, nor play one on TV, but I only know what information I've come across in reading or hearing in radio/tv. Maybe my googlefu is lacking, but a quick search still suggests this is the answer.
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vel0city
1 day ago
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That and it's way easier to go from retooling from sour to sweet than reverse, way easier to go from heavy to light than reverse, etc. Not suggesting it's just a flip a switch kind of change, but it's usually a net reduction in complexity in refining for both of those changes.
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nradov
1 day ago
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Nah. Very little direct US trade moves past Iran. In a few weeks President Trump will declare the operation a success and end most kinetic strikes, regardless of the actual situation. Then someone else will have to deal with the aftermath.
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ncallaway
1 day ago
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> It's not a big threat to the US. The US is a net oil exporter, has the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, and, if absolutely necessary, Trump could make up with Canada so those oil imports restart.

The SPR is 58% full, so... not empty but also not all the way full.

Additionally, even though we're a net oil exporter, we're not insulated from the global oil market rates. Local producers aren't going to sell into America more cheaply than they can sell internationally, so if international rates spike, prices will go up domestically too.

If the Straight of Hormuz remains closed for an extended period of time, we'll definitely feel the pinch domestically.

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testing22321
1 day ago
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> Trump could make up with Canada so those oil imports restart.

Like hell he could.

- every Canadian

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hedora
1 day ago
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Hey Canadians, can you permanently dismantle some pipelines?

Unlike our fearless orange leader, I live on earth, and global warming's becoming quite a big issue over here.

Also, the sooner we're forced off oil, the sooner these dumb wars stop.

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dylan604
1 day ago
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Don't the Canadian pipelines just go to the gulf for exporting and not used in the US? In other words, what would turning them off do except hurt their bottom line?
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idiotsecant
1 day ago
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The threat to the US is China feeling like they need to act. The loss of Persian gulf oil is an existential threat to the Chinese economy. This could end very, very bad.
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01100011
1 day ago
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Nah. So far we haven't hit Iran's oil export infrastructure. If China makes a serious move we blow it up. We can also close the straight ourselves and claim it's for protection.
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klooney
1 day ago
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https://understandingwar.org/research/middle-east/iran-updat...

They've started bombing the oil in infrastructure

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01100011
1 day ago
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I ain't reading all that, but if you're referring to the strike on the oil storage facility in Tehran, AFAICT that's not for export. It's local consumption. We haven't, to my knowledge, hit oil exports yet.
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disgruntledphd2
1 day ago
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Fair enough, but if the local supplies are disrupted, export oil will be repurposed for local supply, to avoid issues with the regime.
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01100011
17 hours ago
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I don't think oil works like that. Infra takes a long time to reroute, especially in war time. Exports are nearly all of Iran's economy. They can't turn it off or they starve.
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dylan604
1 day ago
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Why isn't China acting. Putin showed the world is not going to do anything when an aggressor invades. Trump is doing it now. Nobody stopped Israel. What is China waiting for?
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thisislife2
23 hours ago
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They are helping Iran militarily and diplomatically. The last attack on Iran ended in 12 days. The Americans or Israelis haven't send any boots as a proper invasion requires. So they are just waiting and watching.
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Animats
15 hours ago
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China is starting to act.[1][2] There's a summit with Xi and Trump coming up. China is pushing for a cease fire with Iran. China has also stopped aggressive flights over Taiwan airspace for the last week, for whatever reason.

Diplomats on the China side are worried about the Trump administrations's amateurish approach to diplomacy. "... Trump’s reluctance to delegate, disdain for process and focus on quick wins, banking instead on personal magnetism and his “gut” as summit organising principles. ... “You have a handful of people who have never done this before, putting together what may be the most consequential trip in the president’s administration on a wing and a prayer. The Chinese are beyond worried. They’re apoplectic.” - South China Morning Post.

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2026/03/07/china/china-us-iran-wang-yi-i...

[2] https://www.scmp.com/topics/2026-trump-xi-summit

[3] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3344769/trump-xi-sum...

[4] https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/3344769/trump-xi-sum...

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idiotsecant
23 hours ago
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I think they will act if this stretches into a lengthy engagement. They want to see the US solidly committed.
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bpodgursky
1 day ago
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Frankly this whole thing is worth it if it scares Taiwan and Japan into building new nuclear capacity. Taiwan has been suicidally turning off nuclear generation for a decade despite it being the last country on earth that wants to rely on naval imports of essential goods.
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foota
1 day ago
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Could it be because nuclear is highly centralized? I would expect that something like solar/wind power would be better for decentralization (in a war).

Even if you don't blow up a nuclear plant, it seems like cutting the power from one would be relatively easy.

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bpodgursky
1 day ago
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Russia has refrained from hitting Ukraine's nuclear plants directly, and Ukraine has more or less kept them connected to the grid (albeit with nonstop repair efforts).

Transformer substations are more vulnerable targets but it's hard to be decentralized enough to not have those.

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mkoubaa
1 day ago
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What genre of cope is this?
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kev009
1 day ago
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Conceivably, the 50 tankers per day could move in batches with the protection of a Destroyer. It's hard to imagine a credible surface or subsea threat with current fleet presence so it's basically a question of missile defense. Some constellation of vessels can indefinitely secure the zone if any powers that be with a suitable Navy desire it, and there are at least a few that have plausible capabilities.
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decimalenough
1 day ago
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How is a single destroyer going to protect 50 oil tankers at once? Oil tankers are almost comically unsuited to warfare and you don't need missiles to penetrate their non-existent defences, they can easily and cheaply be taken out by drones. Here's Ukraine doing just that for the Nth time last week:

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr5ll27z52do

As the friendly article says, the US military has no idea about how commercial shipping works and how hard it will be convince anybody to transit through an active war zone.

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dylan604
1 day ago
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How good is an Iranian navy really? At this point, seriously asking, why is there anything left of an Iranian navy? If we're in a shooting conflict that's a war not a war, why would they not be going after anything that could be considered a blockade? I'm going with these guys didn't have a real plan, and that block the straight is something they actually didn't consider so nothing in place to counter. It's Keystone cops
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the_why_of_y
1 day ago
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Ukraine's entire navy was sunk in the first 3 days of the war, and 4 years later Russian Black Sea fleet knows to stay in port as more than half of their ships have been sunk by Ukrainian missiles and drones.
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petre
1 day ago
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The don't have a navy per se, just speedboats fitted with missiles, whatever is left of it. Enough to drive the insurance costs sky high and interdict tanker traffic through the strait. Also their navy port is right next to the strait, I wonder why.

See this comical propaganda clip:

https://youtu.be/GKJHaODzP-0?is=QRf8HkFJ0O4Amx3v

They also have Shaheds.

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dylan604
1 day ago
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How is a fleet of speedboats not a navy?

"A navy, naval force, military maritime fleet, war navy, or maritime force is the branch of a state's armed forces principally designated for naval and amphibious warfare;" --wikipedia

Also, comical is a great description. I was aware that Iran has a speedboat navy, but wtf that video?! How much is AI? The shot with the giant flame throwing rockets flying slower that the speedboats is hilarious. I guess perspective is everything??

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petre
1 day ago
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I guess you could call a fleet of dinghies a navy as well by that measure. Anyway, they no longer have their navy, because according to Trump it was, uh, 'knocked out'.

What they do still have however, is enough Shaheds to interdict tanker traffic through the straight.

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crooked-v
1 day ago
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Iran doesn't need a navy to sink cargo ships going through the Straight of Hormuz, they just need a handful of guys in the mountains with a stock of rockets or drones.
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kev009
1 day ago
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Not congruent to what I wrote: Why would the batch size be 1? Must it be the US military? What anti-drone capabilities do Destroyers have or could be made to have?

If the tankers are primarily for the benefit of Asia and not the US do you risk bringing additional parties with a grievance into your conflict?

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dragonwriter
1 day ago
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> Must it be the US military?

When the action you are talking about is, for anyone other than the US or Israel, signing up to become a co-belligerent with the US & Israel in their war with Iran? Yeah, the realistic options for who might do it are pretty limited.

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kev009
1 day ago
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Seems tinged in political fog. For instance, if China wants tankers to have safe passage they can present diplomatic arrangements with the other players (US&Israel and/or Iran) indicating they are there for escort only. Belligerence would not be up to them if they were forced to defend their merchant escort.
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decimalenough
1 day ago
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Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Iraq, and Saudi are all US allies and they all rely on the Straits for exports. If they can't sell oil/LNG, they will be in much bigger trouble than their customers, who have other suppliers to choose from.
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vkou
1 day ago
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The simple solution seems to be to put the Trump fortune up as insurance collateral. If he's so confident that the war's such a good idea, he needs to put some skin in the game.
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dylan604
1 day ago
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So now we know the true purpose for Board of Peace membership dues
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ncallaway
1 day ago
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You have to convince three sets of people to move any tanker through the Straight:

- the crew - the company - the insurer

The company has an obvious reason to take on some amount of risk to move a vessel through the Straight. However, both the crew and the insurer will be quite risk averse, so the Navy would need to demonstrate a very high success rate in intercepting both missiles and shaheds to convince those two other groups to say "yes".

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cosmicgadget
19 hours ago
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Seems like a great way to have the destroyer's air defense overwhelmed/depleted by shaheds while IRGC drone boats and speedboats attack from the surface. Then you have 50 insurance claims against the US treasury.
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verdverm
1 day ago
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The missiles destroyers have are not the kind you want to use to shoot down shaheds. The economics don't work out in the long run. Same for AIM-9s. There are some new guided pod rockets that likely break even, but they are new.

https://theaviationist.com/2026/03/06/typhoon-spotted-rocket...`

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bigfatkitten
1 day ago
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If Iran makes a nuisance of itself for long enough, I expect a coalition naval task force will go and open the strait back up.
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verdverm
1 day ago
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It's less about "opening it up" and more about the tanker companies feeling there is enough safety. With the Red Sea instance, they didn't start running ships until the Houthis said they were done.
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bigfatkitten
8 hours ago
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The feeling of safety in this scenario would be provided by the assurance that anyone who tries picking on a tanker would be stomped into the ground by a destroyer.
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verdverm
4 hours ago
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except that history shows otherwise, as relayed in the submission
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nixon_why69
1 day ago
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And now you have a US navy destroyer in torpedo range of the shore.
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mikrl
1 day ago
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> unlike all other US wars since Korea, the US can't end this war by pulling out

From what I read in Kissinger’s Diplomacy, Vietnam was also a war they couldn’t just pull out of if they wanted to.

The public wanted deescalation, but the Americans under Nixon had to escalate the war to get enough of an advantage to pull out without it being a bloodbath.

Hence part of Nixon’s infamy: he defied public opinion and escalated an unpopular war, precisely to end it more cleanly.

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roenxi
1 day ago
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That sounds kinda stupid. These days when someone says something ridiculous but pro-war it generally turns out they are just lying through their teeth and just not being honest about their motivations (eg, getting kickbacks or they're worried about tactical political issues). It seems more than likely that when Kissinger writes that we're reading someone being dishonest.

In addition, I'm struggling with the idea that Kissinger of all people cared enough about what happened to Vietnamese people for it to affect policy. He was the sort who would have no difficulty at all allowing bloodbaths to happen if he thought that was advantageous. His wiki page suggests, in fact, that he did do exactly that a few times.

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mikrl
21 hours ago
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It’s not pro or anti war, it’s realpolitik.

Neither Nixon nor Kissinger wanted to be in Vietnam, but again, if they evacuated in 1969 it would have been a bloodbath of American soldiers I think is the point you missed.

The communists had a decisive advantage until the Americans escalated the war to a ceasefire then pulled out in the mid 1970s.

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roenxi
2 hours ago
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Did he claim war was peace and slavery was freedom on the way through? When I say that sounds incredible, I mean that in the sense it is difficult to link it with credibility. That argument's conclusion is that keeping troops in an active warzone will prevent them getting injured, and being driven out of a country represents the fruit of erasing the opponent's decisive advantage. With pretzel-logic of that magnitude that anything is possible.

There is a much easier conclusion which is Kissinger was making things up because he'd look like a real monster if he honestly said it was just stupid policy.

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Hikikomori
2 hours ago
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If they didn't want go be in Vietnam maybe Nixon should not have sabotaged the peace talks.
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LAC-Tech
1 day ago
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My predictions for the end of this war:

- The USA eventually declares some arbitrary "victory" condition.

- Iran will be left even poorer, and much less able to defend itself conventionally, but will remain under the same regime. Very likely they give up cooperating with atomic energy inspectors and do what North Korea did to a acquire weapons.

- Israel's ability to dictate US foreign and military policy will be degraded long term. What many commentators do not see is how anti-Israel younger consevatives trend in the US now. It will be decades or before a serious anti-Israel republican candidate will be fielded, but it is inevitable, and even your typical greatest-ally-wall-kissers will have to moderate themselves.

Will be very interesting to see what the mid terms bring. Some on the American right are already talking about voting democrat to protest - MAGA was specifically sold to them as an antidote to necon middle eatern entanglements.

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anigbrowl
7 hours ago
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The US can't win without taking control of Iran's nuclear materiél. They can't do that without ground troops. And any ground invasion of Iran is going to be a clusterfuck of epic proportions.
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cosmicgadget
19 hours ago
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Think Iran will reopen the strait if the US leaves or remain interested in punishing the US and nearby states that supported the strikes?
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nradov
1 day ago
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Iran won't be allowed to acquire nuclear weapons. North Korea was under China's protection but no one is going to protect Iran. The USA, Israel, and maybe some of the Gulf states will continue occasionally "mowing the grass" whenever the threat level increases.

(I'm not claiming that this is a good scenario, just a likely one.)

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LAC-Tech
1 day ago
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I am not seeing a scenario were they can be stopped. They are already surviving under combined US/Israeli strikes. Short of being attacked with weapons of mass destruction...

... oh dear god this administration is dumb enough to try that, isn't it?

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nradov
21 hours ago
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Iran can be stopped. Building nuclear weapons plus delivery systems isn't easy and requires a major industrial effort. They won't be allowed to sustain that effort, or rebuild the air defenses necessary to protect it.
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C6JEsQeQa5fCjE
19 hours ago
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There is no reason to believe that they haven't already developed and worked out the details of all that, in case they'd ever need it. Now the US and Israel have killed the only man who was preventing it from being done, the late supreme leader. I cannot imagine the next supreme leader (that is about to be announced) not immediately cancelling the prohibition on building nuclear weapons (to be made public only after they've been built, ofc), and giving the order to build ~10 nuclear warheads (the amount that they can build based on the amount of 60% enriched fissile material they currently possess). With two nuclear powers relentlessly attacking them, it would be suicidal of them to not order the immediate building of nuclear weapons ASAP.
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nradov
16 hours ago
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You're really missing the point. Just because someone gives the order to develop nuclear weapons doesn't mean that their defense industrial base has the capacity to do it, or that it can be protected against future strikes. Furthermore, if Iran declared that it did possess working nuclear weapons that wouldn't be a deterrent: it would trigger an immediate and massive preemptive attack by the USA and Israel.
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C6JEsQeQa5fCjE
15 hours ago
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The point was addressed in the first sentence of my previous reply.

As for a preemptive attack, which I imagine you meant would be nuclear since they're already giving it all they've got with their non-nuclear attacks, it is already clear that Israel and USA don't have a way to stop Iran's faster missiles, and they would have no way to prevent Iran nuking Tel-Aviv and Haifa in return. At that point Israel would cease to exist as a state and as a society. They would never risk that. The entire decades-long war against the middle east by USA and Israel is fought for the benefit of Israel, not for its destruction.

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nradov
14 hours ago
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No, you're still missing the point. I mean a massive US conventional attack. So far in the current conflict the US has used only a fraction of its capability, and only targeted military and government facilities. In a scenario where Iran claimed to have nuclear weapons then the US would hit much harder and aim to cause so much infrastructure damage and civilian casualties that Iran would be unable to build much of anything more complex than short-range rockets.
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anigbrowl
7 hours ago
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This is an absurd fantasy. Most of Iran's military capability is deep inside mountains. If the US & Israel wants to adopt a strategy of Vietnam-style carpet bombing to devastate the entire country, not only will they be making themselves pariahs (which they're already on the way to doing) but they will be incentivizing Iran to hit Israel with dirty bombs, which will collapse the Israeli economy in short order.
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nradov
6 hours ago
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No one cares about Iran. I'm not advocating this, but the USA could commit genocide in Iran and it wouldn't make us a pariah. And dirty bombs are a joke, the notion that Israel would be afraid of them is an absurd fantasy. For better or worse, the USA will continue to prop up the Israeli economy.
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C6JEsQeQa5fCjE
8 hours ago
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A massive conventional attack against a nuclear power is historically not a thing. That's the whole point of a nuclear deterrent. No one is attacking Russia or North Korea under pretenses of humanitarian interventions. A massive conventional attack that would tear Iran apart would be a sufficient reason to initiate nuclear armageddon between Israel and Iran, as it would be a doomsday event for Iran either way; might as well go down swinging. Again, that's the whole point of a nuclear deterrent. It's what Israel's Samson option is, even though none of their enemies ever possessed nuclear weapons.
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nradov
6 hours ago
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No, you're still missing the point. The massive conventional attack will tear Iran apart before they construct enough nuclear weapons to present a credible deterrent.
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C6JEsQeQa5fCjE
6 hours ago
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No, you're still missing your own arguments, based on which this discussion thread has been based. Citing your exact words:

> Furthermore, if Iran declared that it did possess working nuclear weapons that wouldn't be a deterrent: it would trigger an immediate and massive preemptive attack by the USA and Israel.

I've been discussing this under the assumption from your own words that "it did possess working nuclear weapons" ('it' being Iran). If you are now changing this to a massive escalation before they even get it, then that is out of scope for this discussion. I would argue they are already doing that to the extent that they can, as they have to tread carefully since Iran can also destroy all key infrastructure in Israel as well.

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crooked-v
1 day ago
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The problem the US and Israel now have is that no amount of preemptively declaring victory and withdrawing will make it safe to pass through the Straight of Hormuz again.
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DrProtic
23 hours ago
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Trump announced yesterday they will murder anyone who takes leadership. They don’t want it opened, they want China and India to suffer while establishing themselves as alternative energy supplier.

US itself has huge reserves, and recent move with Venecuela further expands it.

Middle East countries are too blind to see it, they’re being thrown under the bus to hurt Iran.

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thisislife2
23 hours ago
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Yes, a decade or two down the lane, all of middle-east will regret that they didn't do anything to check the US backed Israeli aggression in their region. The lack of political foresight and political will is really astounding (and surprising). And this is after the US Ambassador to Israel openly said that Israel has the "Biblical right" to all of middle-east, and the US is fine with that!
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