Italian prosecutors seek trial for Amazon, 4 execs in alleged $1.4B tax evasion
154 points
3 hours ago
| 5 comments
| reuters.com
| HN
mesmertech
3 hours ago
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As a solo indiehacker in Europe, its crazy that I have to be so worried about VAT related things and big tech just goes around the whole thing and doesn't even expect to be charged just fined
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amarcheschi
3 hours ago
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Well, for once execs are being investigated as well
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cbg0
2 hours ago
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You only have to be worried if you're doing something illegal, like the guys in the article. Misfiling something won't land you in jail, just some fines at the most. Intent matters quite a bit.
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vjvjvjvjghv
1 hour ago
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“ just some fines at the most. “

That’s ok for the big players with deep pockets. For the little guy this is a much bigger problem. As it should. It would just be nice if law breaking would be a bigger problem for the bigger companies too.

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riffraff
19 minutes ago
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I think GPs point is that the fines are generally not crazy.

I misfiled stuff a few times and got fined, it's annoying but it's not something that will break your bank.

The behaviour of the tax office varies quite a lot from country to country tho.

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pocksuppet
9 minutes ago
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Yes. No country is out here destroying productive businesses because they made a paperwork mistake. The penalty is usually proportionate.

But don't trust me, ask your lawyer.

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bluefirebrand
2 hours ago
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When you're not wealthy, "some fines at most" can be a really nasty setback
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omnimus
1 hour ago
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No really the fines in line with the profits and your intent.

Businesses who get into trouble because of taxes are doing it intentionally. Or somebody in the company does it intentionally.

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flerchin
2 hours ago
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Honest sellers pay VAT, and scofflaws get sales. Yeah they gotta throw down the gauntlet here or else VAT is only for suckers.
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mcs5280
3 hours ago
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Let me guess. Jeff/Andy make a donation to a certain someone. Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped.
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robtherobber
3 hours ago
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I think that normally that may be the approach (and I'm not singling out Italy for this, it probably applies to most countries).

On this occasion, however:

> In all previous cases involving other international groups, once a settlement was reached and payment made, prosecutors closed related criminal investigations, either through plea deals or by dropping the cases.

> This time, however, Milan prosecutors did not share the tax authority's approach and decided to press ahead with their probe, leading to a request that the suspects be sent to trial.

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mr_00ff00
2 hours ago
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Damn, is anyone an expert that can speak to the criminal law involved here?

It’s crazy that executives can jump around the law and not face any criminal charges, then the company picks up the bill (although I’m not ignorant thinking this isn’t usual)

I’m just curious to learn more about how often this is the case and you usually what happens with people afterward

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limagnolia
1 hour ago
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I don't know about Italian law, but in the US tax evasion is pretty difficult in many cases to prove. It is illegal in the US to deliberately defraud the IRS to evade paying taxes, it is not illegal to make a mistake, or claim a deduction you think you can claim when the IRS decides you can't, etc. So prosecutors must prove you had an intent to evade taxes you knew you owed. Because they can rarely meet that bar, criminal charges are rarely brought.
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lormayna
5 minutes ago
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In Italy, if you are charged of tax evasion, you need to demonstrate that you are not evading. It's called "inversion proof"
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nobodyandproud
2 hours ago
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While I share your sentiment, perhaps its better that it remain murky to give prosecutors a chance to succeed.
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zoobab
2 hours ago
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"Tariffs on Italy are threatened. Case is dropped."

Justice is independent in most EU countries.

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beardyw
1 hour ago
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But I think tariffs cannot be imposed on individual countries in the EU. At least that was how I understood the situation with Spain.
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riffraff
18 minutes ago
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that is also true. Doesn't really stop Trump from threatening to do it all the tim tho.
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cbg0
2 hours ago
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There's quite a few asterisks that need to be appended to "independent".
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gpderetta
2 hours ago
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It is quite independent in Italy actually. The government is pushing for a constitutional amendment to help "fix" this feature. There is going to be a referendum on the change very soon.
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jonathanlydall
1 hour ago
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I have ancestral Italian Citizenship but have never lived in Italy.

I am occasionally called upon by the local consulate to perform my civic duty and vote.

Just this week I sent them back my ballot, now marked, for this referendum in a sealed envelope.

This referendum required me to dig more deeply than usual into Italian politics before I could decide which way I wanted to vote.

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mr_00ff00
35 minutes ago
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I am familiar with this but thought it was for separating prosecutors from judges?

Is this some indirect effect of that?

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riffraff
13 minutes ago
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the current reform is complicated, and reasonable people can disagree on how to vote, but it goes a bit further than separating prosecutors from judges.

Namely, it also changes the self-regulating body (the CSM, Consiglio Superiore della Magistratura) of the judiciary so that the government and parliament have a bit more authority and the judiciary have a bit less: the organ is split in two, its judiciary members are no longer elected but picked randomly while a part is decided by the political side, and there's an even higher special tribunal.

Proponents say this is necessary, opponents say this is leading towards stronger power of the political majority over the judiciary.

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N19PEDL2
1 hour ago
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myrmidon
3 hours ago
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It would be really nice to have a few relevant numbers in the article for context.

If this is just from foreign sellers operating on amazon.it, then 1.4B of evaded taxes sounds like a lot to me, because the total revenue should be well under 50B/y, so this would be a significant fraction of total sales tax (and I'd expect most sellers to not be foreign and thus unaffected).

Would be quite nice to see rich people held accountable for once, curious how this will go.

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philipwhiuk
2 hours ago
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> and I'd expect most sellers to not be foreign and thus unaffected

Most sellers probably are foreign.

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Yizahi
2 hours ago
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Billionaire doesn't pay tax: let's settle with you paying half of all stolen money as a fine and we'll drop the case.

A regular citizen doesn't pay tax: lets jail or deport you, bar the entry for a decade, take away your home, car and anything you own in general and make you unable to find job for the rest of your life. Also your tax is double that of the billionaire, glhf ;) .

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creddit
1 hour ago
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In Italy, the only entities consistently paying taxes are large corporations. Literally everyone else is constantly evading them.
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randoments
59 minutes ago
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as a freelancer i must be doing something wrong then.
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creddit
17 minutes ago
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Actually, you're doing something right. Everyone else is doing something wrong.
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newswasboring
30 minutes ago
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Taxes dont get deducted from people's salaries?
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riffraff
11 minutes ago
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they do, the above comment is a generic populist rant
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htx80nerd
1 hour ago
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Rich people provide huge economic stimulant to the economy in many different ways.
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RankingMember
29 minutes ago
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Even if evidence did agree with this uncited, broad assertion (I've seen nothing to that effect), it'd still be an indefensible justification for inequity in punishment.
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dmix
4 minutes ago
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> I've seen nothing to that effect

Even if billionaires don't pay income tax and are only taxed occasionally when they sell assets, there isn't much doubt that the corporations they create and invest in generate massive amounts of tax revenue in the countries they operate. Not to mention all the revenue generated from property tax, income tax from their employees getting paid by the company, local fines and fees, sales tax, import duties, etc.

You can want the super wealthy to pay more tax when they sell stuff to fund their lifestyles, but that doesn't mean their work isn't generating large amounts of economic activity which turns into tax revenue for governments.

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wat10000
40 minutes ago
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So do poor people. Apply the law equally.
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keybored
1 hour ago
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The sources for that are plenty of billionaire-funded think tanks. Don’t worry there are sources.
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