A Swedish citizen database is... you know. fun. But not exactly hard to get hold of.
[1] https://www.statenspersonadressregister.se/master/start/engl...
Scandinavian countries are extremely open and transparent in a way that might be shocking for Americans. For example, in Norway, I can check nearly anyone's brokerage account holdings, addresses, phone numbers, etc. on public websites. I can in theory look up anyone's tax filings.
Personal identification numbers do not tend to be considered private in the same way that social security numbers in the US are.
Pretty modern stack. I would start a government service using those today.
Description translated:
> This system was one of the oldest IT systems in NAV, and ran in production for 51 years, from when the National Insurance Scheme was introduced in 1967. In January 2018, Presys was put into production, which together with Pesys became the successor to DSF. At that point, DSF was also shut down. The system is written in PL/I.
It's like the Apollo 11 code, but for social services.
They'd say that if you earn a lot, you shouldn't take a cheap housing.
Any truth to that?
Nowadays I think mostly journalists use it to pull up information about politicians and other people that are in the public spotlight. There are of course the yearly "richest people in Norway" lists in various categories.
Yeah, kind of a fake solution, request it via Ratsit or whatever and all they get to see is that someone used Ratsit, but not who actually requested it.
Same goes for criminal cases, using Krimfup or whatever just leads to the service's name "leaking", while you can use fake details to sign up for both Ratsit and Krimfup.
I think a lot of "humbleness" is also enforced this way, in the US seems normal (or even some European countries) to flaunt your wealth, and others seem more or less OK with it, while in Sweden it's much more socially unacceptable to in any sort of way brag about being rich, or showing that off. Humble-richness is OK and tolerated, but flagrantly displaying your wealth among the public is generally frowned upon.
So together with that, living in a average neighborhood but have a house that sticks out as clearly "rich person's house" will gain you evil looks from your neighbors, as you're "supposed to" live in a different neighborhood where neighbors look more equal, otherwise you again stick out, which is cause for friction culturally.
Lots of culture in Sweden is less about "lets correctly solve the problem" and more "lets ensure the gaping holes aren't so visible for everyone, so we can ignore it properly".
Apparently she was in a situation where she 'owned' her house, but still paid a monthly maintenance fee to some agency. and she wasn't allowed to repaint the rooms or do any sort of repairs, but had to go through some agency, who would do it for her.
Apparently that was a neighborhood thing, but she told me of epic (and apparently fruitless) struggles of her friends' who wanted to repaint their house in a different color and install some circular windows.
What, exactly is the connection between your uninformed story and the incorrect - and not unlikely Russo-Iranian propaganda HN post we are in?
Also may I ask who the heck you are to call my story uninformed? As far as I recall, there's nothing inaccurate about what I said, I might be missing some context or nuance, but there's no disinformation in there, and there's certainly no hidden motive (what would even that be?) you seem to imply.
”Apparently she was in a situation where she 'owned' her house, but still paid a monthly maintenance fee to some agency.”
(This is not the norm. I can go into a lot more detail if you want to.)
I am not accusing you of disinformation. I am saying that are writing completely irrelevant stuff in a story that is, as far as I can see is mostly false and has a high probability of being propaganda related to current conflicts.
And yes, dozens of other people did the same.
Media is also allowed to pull "top" lists like the 100 people with the most income in a city, 100 people with the most wealth in a city, etc.
The points was that it added another layer of issues for immigrants because they didn't understand the neighbourhood they "should be living in" with their revenue.
This seems to me a very bad attempt to hide xenophobia.
There's also the underlying current of Jantelagen (Law of Jante) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
There are so many ways to misuse these data. Are the residents not concerned about this?
Businesses in Scandinavia and many other countries would not treat someone knowing your personal information as any evidence of identity (because it's not); having all that information is not sufficient to impersonate you there - identity theft does happen but it would require stealing or forging physical documents or actual credentials to things like bank accounts; knowing all of what your mother or spouse would know is not enough to e.g. get credit or get valuable goods in your name.
It's completely crazy to me that you can be "out of status" with the USCIS and still get a social security card and a bank account, for example.
These types of laws are designed for the 1950s where there were natural barriers to acquiring and disseminating information. There is no attempt whatsoever to update them and to reduce harm caused to the average citizen today.
By just accepting it as a normal fact of life that you will have some random stuff ordered in your name sooner or later with an invoice you'll have to dispute. Happened to a relative of mine, police do not care unless they order things above a certain value, without a police report you cannot get free ID protection, and then you'll have to sit for a long time in phone queues trying to cancel a subscription for a streaming service or whatever they ordered while get thrown around by support reps who go "you SURE you or someone in your family didn't order this?"
You of course cannot access and empty out someone's bank account this way, you're safe in that regard. But you need to dispute the invoices as soon as possible to show that it is fradulent, so you don't end up needing to actually pay for it. Or get debt collectors after you.
So don't take this poster by their word.
Not saying it DOES NOT happen as it is a system not made for the internet. But widespread? It is not.
I am in my 30s btw so I was alive before BankID and it was a worse time. Remember my parents paid bills with paper.
But they didn't change it, because "women should be able to look up the men that they date".
Last update I heard about something being done about it was this:
https://www.regeringen.se/pressmeddelanden/2024/11/utredning...
Not sure what the current status is.
They are absolutely trivial to get. One click on mrkoll.se.
But that seems like a completely different thing than a nefarious and anonymous person or group having access to the entire database.
Basically: obviously it's not desirable to have that full database in the hands of a malicious actor but I'm not sure it's such a big deal either. Again, it's public data by design.
Also, no source code of ”Swedish e-government services” was leaked since that is not a thing:
[1]: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/uppgift-statlig-it-inform...
[2]: https://www.cgi.com/se/sv/news/cybersakerhet/cgi-informerar-...
Let me just say, the likelihood that CGI would have any _actual_ real personal data is close to 0%, at least on servers outside of Skatteverket. I had access to absolutely nothing even working inside. I have never worked in a more closed-down system, maybe excepting the swedish military "complex". No, actually that was less locked down in a way, at least once you were "inside" the system.
> citizen PII databases and electronic signing documents were also collected but are being sold separately
And if we are to believe the hacked company, it is a development environment with test data in it. That remains to be seen, but is a risky thing to lie about. If there is production data in the leak, we will surely know about it.
Being able to validate that a citizen is a citizen and their ID is valid inherently requires the system be accessible
That's not an excuse though, any system handling data like that should be continuously reviewed and pentested by professionals. Hopefully they can show that this has been done otherwise it's just negligence.
> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/ArvG0E/cgi-sverige-uppg...
No. CGI has nothing to do with BankID.
IMO the most credible reports suggest that the source code and data involved are related to these four services:
https://www.cgi.com/se/sv/business-process-services/e-tjanst... "Mina engagemang offers a user-friendly and flexible solution that allows your customers to manage their cases directly through a personal portal. Here, users can view, track, and interact with their ongoing cases, which enhances both transparency and efficiency in the communication process." -- some kind of ticket/case management system for gov't agencies
https://www.cgi.com/se/sv/business-process-services/elektron... "With our secure end-to-end e-ID and eSign services, we can help you streamline document and contract management, gain access to all desired e-ID issuers, and improve cost efficiency." -- this sounds like a bad thing to compromise, but is to the best of my understanding a system for digital signatures on documents, and has no relation to BankID
https://www.cgi.com/se/sv/business-process-services/e-tjanst... "Gain better control over your organization’s representatives with our easy-to-use representative registry. By automating the identification and verification of representatives, you’ll gain a clear overview and enhance the security of your processes." -- sounds like some bullshit CRUD app for managing who can "represent" a gov't agency
https://www.cgi.com/se/sv/business-process-services/e-tjanst... "SHS is Sweden’s common standard for information exchange, enabling secure and efficient communication between government agencies, businesses, and organizations." -- this might be bad if real data was leaked
These are services used by various Swedish government agencies and it's pretty bad to have even a test instance of them hacked, but let's calm down. The entire Swedish state has not been compromised here.
That's incorrect. Skatteverket used CGI for BankID-login, I don't know if they still do. I have personal experience working on a BankID-login using CGI for another company and it is still active.
Edit: I just confirmed Skatteverket still uses CGI for BankID-auth. "funktionstjanster" is CGI.
Skatteverket, the Swedish tax authority, has been quoted in media as confirming that they use CGI's system for digital document signing but that none of their data nor that of any citizens has been leaked.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/uppgift-statlig-it-inform...
"One of the government agencies that uses CGI’s services is the Swedish Tax Agency, which was notified of the incident by the company. However, according to the Swedish Tax Agency, its users have nothing to worry about.
“Neither our data nor our users’ data has been leaked. It is a service we use for e-signatures that has been affected, but there is no data from us or our users there,” says Peder Sjölander, IT Director at the Swedish Tax Agency."
The best case scenario is in line with what CGI claims: these are lorem ipsum fake docs from an old git repo for a test instance of the system.
Because in that case they can sign documents on my behalf without my permission. In a court case, it would be near impossible for me to prove that the government gave my private key to someone else and that it wasn't me signing an incriminating document.
I'm familiar with electronic signatures, and I know what documents are, but I have never heard the phrase "electronic signing documents" and don't know what that is supposed to mean. What kind of documents? Documents about signing, documents that were signed, documents in the sense that files containing keys could be considered documents, or what?
CGI is not the only supplier of these services.
You use the card reader, insert your gov-issued identification and can sign PDF papers which have legal validity since the private key from the citizen card was used.
Now imagine someone signing random legal documents with your ID for things like debts, opening companies or subscritions to whatever.
Currently most Swede's use a private bank consortisum controlled ID solution for most logins and signatures.
Could you, having the right private keys, impersonate some company soliciting a BankID signature?
I’m not sure what you can do with that though. You cannot steal some other ongoing signature I guess.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/uppgift-statlig-it-inform...
– Neither our data nor our users' data has been leaked. It is a service we use for e-signatures that has been affected, but there is no data from us or our users there, says
The information that source code was leaked from a joint government e-platform is not true, according to Peder Sjölander.
– There is no such platform. I think the perpetrators in this want people to feel insecure. We feel confident that our data is safe and we have the situation under control before the tax return period opens next week.
[1] https://flashism.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/swedish-armed-forc...
P.S.: And strangers will sometimes help you find vulnerabilities (and sometimes be very obnoxious but that's not open source's fault).
When I started it was a big security theater. Had to develop on thin clients with no external internet access, for instance. Then they got some great people in charge that modernized everything.
Only drawback is when you quit, you have to make sure to unsubscribe from everything, hehe. When quitting a private company I was just removed from the github org. Here I was as well, but I was still subscribed to lots of repos, issues, PRs,heh.
I'm also surprised that you were able to (or expected to?) use your private GitHub account for your work.
Government / handles society-critical things code should really be public unless there are _really_ good reasons for it not to be, where those reasons are never "we're just not very good at what we're doing and we don't want anyone to find out".
It's very hard to steal everyone's documents when they weight about the same as a train.
Wouldn't a fire or flood affect everything? Both data stored on paper and hard disks?
"Fireproof file rooms and cabinets in the 1920s were crucial for protecting business and government records during the rapid expansion of the industrial era. The era saw a massive shift from flammable wooden office furniture to robust, steel-based storage designed to resist both fire and water damage."
That's a Google AI summary - but I've been in a fair number of buildings with such rooms. Thick concrete walls, heavy steel fire doors, no other openings, nothing but steel file cabinets in 'em, sealed electric light fixtures that look like they belong in a powder magazine (where one spark could kill everyone) - it's really simple tech.
And "high ground" was a reliable flood protection tech several centuries before that.
We have several historic examples of records being lost in disasters, and way more recent than 100 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Personnel_Records_Cen...
It makes no difference that we could’ve prevented that with better building construction. We didn’t, and hindsight does not bring the records back. We should plan for the world we want but cannot ignore the world we have.
I’m not defending digital as always better or criticising physical. Like I said, different tradeoffs, meaning there are advantages and disadvantages to both, there’s no solution which is better in all situations.
I am not saying that paper is magically perfect. Nor better in every situation. I am saying that paper is far easier (than digital) to do well for use cases like a national records collection. "Correctly" may include off-site backups - whether or not your threat model includes massive earthquakes, volcanoes, bombs, special forces, EMP weapons, biological agents, civil war, radioactive fallout, or enemy occupation. Or "Management wouldn't pay for a done-right facility".
As I noted in another comment, the largest downside to paper (within such use cases), is that it is far more difficult to get political support for old-fashioned stuff that just works, compared to anything that can be sold as cool/new/high-tech. Especially when the taxpayer-funded revenue streams from selling/installing/supporting the tech create incentives clearly contrary to the taxpaper's long-term interests.
also: hi tavro! it's been a few years, how have you been :D
Several government organisations / regional authorities and companies were down. Last I heard several medical journals for whole municipalities were just destroyed.
Unfortunately, the public tender process encourages awarding contracts to these giants that repeatedly fail to deliver on even basic opsec and still believe in security-by-obscurity, are suspicious of things like zero-trust, follow outdated engineering practices. Sigh.
The tender process + clueless buyers + tender process law(s) cause this. Whole process needs a revamp for this to not be a problem.
So what you think would be the solution ? From what I see (both public tender or not), I would claim that "any large IT project/company will suffer from security issues", so not sure what is the added value to single out a process (the tender) or a region (Europe) if there is no obvious alternative.
You have to have people who care about this stuff.
If you don't care, the rest does not matter. It does not matter if, when and how you outsource if you don't care about the outcome. You can't just pay someone a salary, nor a consulting bill, check the box and say you've done your part.
And the other way around: These huge consulting conglomerates would get very few jobs if purchasers cared about the details, and not just that all the boxes are checked.
What?! Preposterous! How could you even make money out of that? No no no, that will not do. You will ask your AI agent some vague question, commit the result without review and push it to the client. And you’ll like it. If there’s any trouble, call Timothy, he’ll be on vacation with his family in Thailand. Some resort, “Lotus” something or other.
IBM or Accenture or whoever don't need to be the only ones winning tenders.
Maybe there would be a benefit from having less layers of management, but multiple small companies or one big could have the same structure.
It's the same reason major govt. IT orgs keep pushing for closed source (recently the Swedish Tax Authority was in the media for _pushing for Office 365_ as necessary for operations), out-sourced designs, big firm purchases over FOSS or real standards.
You need people that care (and they exist, even in the gigantic state orgs.) in positions to make good decisions. Right now, everything is up in the hands of nebulously defined managerial staff with none-to-doubtful technical competence.
Another recent case: the Swedish digital exams platform flopped at a rough cost of a billion SEK. Can't sustain 150K concurrent users, despite paying a "large company". Like, come on.
And signing up with a big company is good way to cover your behind, because "if they with all their people and knowledge could not do it...". Basically the mantra or "Nobody was ever fired for buying Cisco".
That said, Sweden takes a different approach to PII, so most of that information would have already been public. You can generally just look up any resident and their ID number and other biographical details in a public directory (among other things… their tax returns are also public records).
Of course, they might be wrong!
Turns out it's about data.
But it turns out that more than the source code was leaked.
Public money, public code.
Accountability now, send these people to prison
Who will take responsibility and get fired and lose all pension etc.? Oh wait no one.
Well the citizens need to suck it up.
Edit, i checked the facts: The Bulgarian government said that the it should pay too much to itself, and appealed the fine for few years until it somehow expired. And the guy (20 year at that time) they accused was later acquitted after they tried to ruin his life.