Leviathan (1651)
104 points
by mrwh
3 days ago
| 5 comments
| gutenberg.org
| HN
libraryofbabel
9 hours ago
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As an ex historian I love how this famous 350yo work of political philosophy is just sitting at #7 on HN with absolutely no context on why it was submitted.

The great debate of political philosophy coming out of the 17th century was between Hobbes (anarchy is horrible, humans aren’t nice to each other, best to give up your freedoms to a strong sovereign/state for protection) and Locke (liberty is best, people are reasonable, limit government). I will say that like most of us I probably side more with Locke but as a pessimist about human nature I find Hobbes’s argument fascinating too.

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urikaduri
8 hours ago
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While Hobbes is dark, he is giving an interesting explanation of how political power actually work, so that even when people are not nice, they can act in a civilized way.I only read a small parts of it and some summaries, from what I understand the crux of the argument doesn't necesserily force democracy or autocracy(although he seem skeptical of democracy) rather it explains the concept of sovereignity, even in a democracy. I once quoted Leviathan in a course assignment to explain why Gandhi's method is effective :)
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roenxi
7 hours ago
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Niceness is the wrong lens to use for acting in a civilised way. Game theory generally recommends cooperation; in practical real-world situations most of the games we play are ones where the best situation comes from negotiation. The issue is more the truly enormous number of actors who either have remarkably short short time preferences, an unreasonable tolerance for risk or who are just unpredictable. That is one of the central themes of the whole liberal project, of course. How to minimise the amount of force required to contain irrational actors.

An easy example is that the scariest people to run in to in a dark ally are the drugged up types; because the problem is they don't have the ability to make decisions while considering the pros- and cons- over a couple of months and their normal behaviour isn't predictive of what they are about to do.

Someone who is truly horrible and comfortable with the idea of barbarism is actually pretty easy to get along with if they're happy to work with long term goals and are predictable in their deployment of violence. Their social place is probably in the military or police force. Or dentistry if they want more consensual torment.

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rdtsc
1 hour ago
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> An easy example is that the scariest people to run in to in a dark ally are the drugged up types; because the problem is they don't have the ability to make decisions while considering the pros- and cons- over a couple of months and their normal behaviour isn't predictive of what they are about to do.

One can argue they can’t help it. But another strategy is to mimic that to gain an upper hand. Let’s imagine someone doesn’t want folks going down their street, they could pretend to act randomly and crazy. Even seasoned barbarians would stay away from that alley, not to even mention dentists ;-)

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simonebrunozzi
5 hours ago
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Beautiful comment. Thanks for sharing. "Homo homini lupus" comes to mind, used by Locke in De Cive ("on the citizen") [1]. Cive, root Civis, is where the word civilization comes from.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_homini_lupus

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Cive

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ycombinete
7 hours ago
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While I always wanted to like Locke's arguments more, they always felt the weaker of the two, and frequently seemed to need to plug god into the gaps.
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herodoturtle
4 hours ago
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Found your comment mightily insightful, so may as well ask:

Can you recommend a handful of similar “historical” works that you’d consider a must-read (or simply just darn interesting).

Thanks!

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johngossman
1 hour ago
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Machiavelli. Not just the Prince but his other works. He reads remarkably modern. There are many "Machiavelli Readers" that will provide a curated selection.

Cicero and Plato.

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lo_zamoyski
2 hours ago
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This is just a very casual, even pop cultural characterization of how these two thinkers are commonly seen. I would expect people to have come across more substantive characterizations during an early high school history class, but perhaps I'm overgeneralizing my experience.

In any case, if you're looking for an approachable yet good book, I recommend reading Edward Feser's "Locke"[0]. The focus is obviously on Locke, but you can't really appreciate Locke without also getting into some Hobbes, which the books does.

[0] https://a.co/d/02c3fLFZ

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libraryofbabel
2 hours ago
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GP here, I agree with you, my characterizations were both pretty casual to the point of flippancy. I could write y’all a deeper essay on this stuff, but hey, I have LLMs to herd, the 17th century wasn’t my period anyway, and there is already a massive amount of insightful writing about these two thinkers to dive into.

I would say Hobbes in particular is a complex and difficult and frankly eccentric thinker; don’t make the mistake of believing you understand him; he is weird. If you really want to grok the guy in the context of his culture and historical moment, you should just read Quentin Skinner. That’s hardcore intellectual history though; for the basics I’d just go for the clear and brief and informative Oxford Hobbes: A Very Short Introduction.

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sebg
1 hour ago
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To continue this discussion and to tie it into the original link, worth looking at this YouTube Video where "Jon Pike interviews Quentin Skinner about Thomas Hobbes' masterpiece Leviathan"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PO3GB-RhA4

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jemmyw
9 hours ago
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Is there a middle ground argument? Something along the lines of humans are horrible to one another unless there is a social state that provides reasonable protection, at which point we can afford to be nice?
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ben30
7 hours ago
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Economist magazine editor once said in an interview that Republican/conservative are open regulations for businesses and closed on people. Labour/democrats are tight on business and more welcoming to the people.

Economist editorial attempts to be open on both sides.

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actionfromafar
3 hours ago
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Ah, the old Economist joke!

1. Open regulations for businnesses

2. Open regulations for people

3. ?????

4. Profit!

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z3phyr
8 hours ago
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The question is not what state humans arein, but what state other humans would be when interacting with them. In other words, are other humans nice to me? I like it when they are nice to me. In return, I will also be nice to them.
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wahnfrieden
9 hours ago
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Read Graeber & Wengrow
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libraryofbabel
9 hours ago
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Oh totally. I actually don’t like Locke’s position much either, he’s too libertarian for my taste (I would like the state to provide healthcare &c &c). But if I had to choose I’d choose Locke over Hobbes. Hobbes is… real dark.
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kruffalon
8 hours ago
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Such elegance, or snobbery or at least some kind of beauty...

Using "&" literally in 2026 smells of wonder, well done, thanks!

Do you do it sometimes in regular English words too or just in &c? Please give more examples (if you have any).

This will be a great day, starting of like this: a written play with words; i like it!

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FrustratedMonky
1 hour ago
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I'm intrigued.

Is there something wrong with "&" in 2026?

Some kind of meta meaning?

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kruffalon
43 minutes ago
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Nothing wrong at all, quite the opposite.

I like it a lot, and it makes me happy to see someone using the ligature of "e t"[0] ("&") not only as "and" but also as it's original "et" in the abbreviation "etc".

To me it reads like someone playing with words in a fun way, which is not that common in my parts of the internet

I was trying to express appreciation.

---

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligature_(writing)

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nandomrumber
2 hours ago
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> my low capacity to influence the general direction or even small local things.

Yeah, maybe start by not intentionally being a cunt.

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kruffalon
37 minutes ago
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I'm confused.

Did you understand the comment you replied to as me being negative or did you reply to the wrong comment?

I'm well aware that I'm a cunt at times, but I'm having a hard time seeing that in this instance.

My intention was to be celebratory towards something I found truly elegant.

(Maybe it is common to use "&" to write "etc" or anywhere where you'd normally use "et" but afaik I have never seen it before.)

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PowerElectronix
6 hours ago
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Wouldn't it make more sense to want less government and more freedom if one doesn't trust people?
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pnut
4 hours ago
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If you don't trust individuals, you're going to need an institution (or private security) to protect you from them. Police, laws, etc.
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krapp
3 hours ago
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No, because people exist outside of government.
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nandomrumber
2 hours ago
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No amount of government is going to help you there.
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krapp
2 hours ago
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Some amount of government helps to some degree, otherwise government and anarchy should be indistinguishable, which is obviously not the case.
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awestroke
8 hours ago
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Like "most of us"? America is uniquely anti-regulation
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nandomrumber
2 hours ago
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The idea that the USA is anti regulation is profoundly ignorant.
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FrustratedMonky
1 hour ago
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Well. Most people are against pouring mercury into the drinking water. Which humans were doing before regulation. So, seems like regulation is needed.
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libraryofbabel
7 hours ago
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Just because I prefer Locke to Hobbes if you forced me to choose doesn't mean I'm some sort of anti-regulation libertarian. Far from it. But if you actually read Hobbes you will see that:

* He thinks everyone should be compelled to worship in the state-sanctioned religion

* Censorship of publications, teaching, etc. is necessary because ideas can be dangerous.

* Separation of powers (e.g. between executive, legislature, judiciary) is bad; he wants a single unitary sovereign with unlimited power.

* The sovereign is above the law

* Resisting a tyrannical sovereign is bad

...and that's why I'd pick Locke over Hobbes. And I think most of us would too.

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otoolep
2 hours ago
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I grew up in Ireland, moved to the USA as an adult. European government is clearly Hobbes in model, the US Lockean.

In Europe the individual has almost no legal reason to use force, and force by individuals is considered illegitimate. The "Sovereign" has all the coercive power in European states. In the US, however, a certain amount of legitimate force explicitly remains with the individual i.e. the 2nd amendment. (I am not making a value judgement here).

Of course, Europe has government with the consent of the governed, so is Lockean in that sense. But the balance of force between the "Sovereign" and the people in Europe is all Hobbes. You only notice it when you move to the US and compare it to Europe.

Europe had centuries of religious and civil war. It's not surprising Hobbes won out.

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a3w
1 hour ago
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"In the Talmud, Rav Yehuda says that there are twelve hours in a day. God spends three of them studying Torah, three judging the world, three answering prayers, and three playing with Leviathan."

Chapter 5: Never Seek To Tell Thy Love, unsongbook.com

Seems to be important, that creature.

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mrwh
3 days ago
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Nature it selfe cannot erre: and as men abound in copiousnesse of language; so they become more wise, or more mad than ordinary
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vivzkestrel
8 hours ago
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- I have no idea what I am supposed to take from this book or what this book is about

- the OP has not put even 2 lines explaining what, where, why, how, when etc

- Anyone mind explaining what this book is about?

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riffraff
8 hours ago
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It's one of the fundamental texts on societal organization from a few centuries ago. It's been a few decades since I finished school, so I may misremember but IIRC:

The author believes that mankind would naturally live in a brutal state of conflict (homo homini lupus est, men are wolves to each other).

But mankind can give up their self interest and give their authority to a government/sovereign (the titular leviathan, a giant monster made of multiple people) that can rule with absolute power and guarantee an environment in which we are all better.

I cannot for the life of me imagine how this ended up on the HN front page, but it's cool.

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kruffalon
8 hours ago
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> I cannot for the life of me imagine how this ended up on the HN front page, but it's cool.

But then again you're riffraff how could you imagine that :)

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FrustratedMonky
1 hour ago
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"It's one of the fundamental texts on societal organization from a few centuries ago."

No Spoilers.

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cess11
5 hours ago
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One might consider it the magnum opus of Thomas Hobbes, a pioneering political thinker who had a massive influence on both conservatism and liberalism. For conservatives his arguments on human nature that conclude that we are inherently brutish and violent and cannot be allowed to rule ourselves are very attractive. He proposed an early social contract theory as a solution, which liberalists have found very attractive.

Hobbes was an intellectual on the right, which is a rather uncommon subject here. He was rather well versed in the science and scholastic methods of his time, and took pains to try and think his views through and make good arguments. This is more than you could say about, say, Rand or Mises, thinkers under the same umbrella who loathed intellectuals.

Now the right is plaguing us with crypto- and outright fascists who don't actually know anything, don't want to know anything, and especially don't want us to know anything. E.g. this recent interview with Marc Andreessen, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBVe3M2g_SA&t=56s , who, with unbridled confidence, makes the claim that original sin was invented by Freud in the 1920s and that no "great men" of history wasted time on introspection and self reflection.

I might be an enemy of the right, but Hobbes I can respect and enjoy reading.

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hunterpayne
3 hours ago
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"For conservatives his arguments on human nature that conclude that we are inherently brutish and violent and cannot be allowed to rule ourselves are very attractive."

I really hope you are European. What you said is true of (most) European Conservatives. If you are an American, that is the most incorrect thing I have read all week. American Conservatives are the exact opposite of what you describe.

The core of the American right wing is to reject the idea in your quote in all ways. The individual is the highest ideal in libertarian ideology. This is why the US Republicans never, ever align themselves with political parties in other countries. They have a completely different set of beliefs. And for some weird reason Europeans completely ignore this and will even react violently when it is explained to them. Its just weird...

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urikaduri
3 hours ago
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Conservatives draw towards authoritarian or "strong" leaders reflect this idea, while its at odds with the more individualistic philosophy. There is a cognitive dissonance there.
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Loughla
40 minutes ago
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The American Right of the 80's through 00's maybe. But today's right wing seems more authoritarian than anything post-Trump. There's this weird sort of thirst for a strong-man government on the right that seems to run counter to the individual liberty arguments they tend to make. I don't get it and I wish it made sense.
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cess11
1 hour ago
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Sure, the US is weird as it is a one-party state that constitutionally and supposedly is fundamentally liberalist, which has the effect that the only viable collective politics becomes fascist or fascism adjacent. Hence the insistence on historical revisionism, genocidal military campaigns and slavery-like institutions.

To the extent US politics is libertarian it is also very selectively so, it does not extend to all people and discards individualism as a universal ethos, either explicitly or by blaming its victims.

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neomantra
3 hours ago
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Watching that again reminds me that this guy is so poorly educated and not learned. Sure he was an engineering student at UIUC and wrote a neato browser, but wow he does not know history or philosophy well.

But he does the grifter trick of making coy observations like that 1920s bs. And he had so much time and wealth to improve those insights!

Or, he knows but this narrative makes him feel better about his behavior.

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cess11
1 hour ago
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I'm not so sure he is grifting, do you have any clips where he slips and shows himself to be knowledgeable of his society and its history?

I have a similar view of Musk, Thiel and Karp, and some others I can't be bothered to remind myself of. Perhaps the Mandelsons belong to this crowd, but I suspect the Kochs have a bit more of an intellectual slant.

It's known to take a lot of discipline to keep your mind sharp and study when your power grows and other people make your life convenient and shielded from the misery of the masses. Marcus Aurelius makes this a core issue of his Meditations, the strife needed to make true and confident measurements of oneself and not get lost in superstition. Perhaps it is an impossible ideal but the ambition is at least interesting, in contrast to whatever Andreessen and his ilk are doing to themselves.

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