UK's Ofcom has today fined 4chan £450k for not having age checks in place
55 points
2 hours ago
| 9 comments
| ofcom.org.uk
| HN
kimixa
17 minutes ago
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People here seem to be thinking this a UK/Europe-specific phenomenon, but there's plenty of examples of the US "seizing" sites that were never hosted in the USA either, and even put pressure on countries to extradite people involved even if they never broke any laws in the country they're living in.

One I remember was a site hosting streams of the 2022 football world cup. Or a number of Iranian-affiliated news sites just last year. Or canadian-based gambling websites in 2021.

People going "Those Crazy Brits! Thank God That'll Never Happen Here!" seem pretty ill-informed.

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petcat
10 minutes ago
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USA doesn't block websites. The FBI will seize domains after some judicial review and a court order. That's about it.
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aaomidi
10 minutes ago
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And you can use cctlds to bypass this too
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soco
4 minutes ago
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I think people here are also more fond of 4chan than the average citizen, and also in general rather fond of technological freedom of anything. Makes sense, being players basically in the team about to get a red card. Like it or not, the global internet became a convenient way to skirt local laws and I don't see any reason why exempting something in one place only because it originated in some other place. Is now enforcing a law "the CCP way"? Should internet be kept lawless only because... internet?
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OsrsNeedsf2P
1 hour ago
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4chan's lawyer's response:

"In the only country in which 4chan operates, the United States, it is breaking no law and indeed its conduct is expressly protected by the First Amendment."[0]

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c624330lg1ko

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deaddodo
1 hour ago
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As shown in that same article, they also responded:

>>>

"Companies – wherever they're based – are not allowed to sell unsafe toys to children in the UK. And society has long protected youngsters from things like alcohol, smoking and gambling. The digital world should be no different," she said.

"The UK is setting new standards for online safety. Age checks and risk assessments are cornerstones of our laws, and we'll take robust enforcement action against firms that fall short."

<<<

Quite frankly she seems completely out of touch with her own argument. The UK can certainly legislate away tobacco sales, for instance; they can't go after tobacco producers in a foreign state. 4Chan operates in the US and is a US company. They have no jurisdiction over it, even if their citizenry can access it; it's on them to block that access if they don't like it. Unless they're also implying that the US government should be allowed to go after UK companies that don't follow it's free speech regulations because American citizens can access them.

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comex
8 minutes ago
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> Unless they're also implying that the US government should be allowed to go after UK companies that don't follow it's free speech regulations because American citizens can access them.

Precedent in the US is that courts do in fact have jurisdiction over a foreign website's owner if the owner "purposefully availed itself of the U.S. forum or purposefully directed its activities toward it", a test which is less demanding than it sounds. [1]

And US has taken advantage of this to go after foreign websites such as Megaupload, BTC-e, Liberty Reserve, etc.

Therefore, if there were a US law requiring companies to follow free speech rules, it could potentially be enforced against foreign website owners. But no such law currently exists. The First Amendment itself only applies to the US government (and to companies working on behalf of the US government). There is also the SPEECH Act, which, among other provisions, creates a cause of action where if someone sues a US person in a foreign court over their speech, they can sue back in US court. But only for declaratory judgement, not damages or an injunction. The goal is mainly just to prevent US courts from enforcing judgements from the foreign court in such cases.

[1] https://tlblog.org/how-to-find-personal-jurisdiction-over-fo...

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bigfatkitten
15 minutes ago
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> even if their citizenry can access it; it's on them to block that access if they don't like it

Not even China and North Korea whine about or send fake “fines” to offshore entities. They just block their sites and move on with life.

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gnfargbl
55 minutes ago
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Speaking as a UK citizen: you're exactly right. If the UK wants to prevent 4chan from being imported into the UK then it needs to block it at the border as it would for physical goods.

The fact that's technically hard to do (at least without going full-on CCP) doesn't change the situation. Attempting to fine a foreign entity for doing something that breaks no laws in the foreign entity's jurisdiction is just risible.

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cm2187
36 minutes ago
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And we shall call it "the Great Firewall of the UK".

It is amazing that these guys don't see the irony of monkeying totaliterian states policies, in term of surveillance and censorship.

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bigmealbigmeal
1 minute ago
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They’re going to keep ignoring these issues because the wrong people are pointing them out. The enemy must always be wrong.

Tribalism is awful for societies. There’s a reason Russia put so much effort into amplifying it in the west.

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bigfatkitten
13 minutes ago
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The UK, like Australia and many of its other offshoots has always had a bit of a totalitarian streak.
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tokyobreakfast
31 minutes ago
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So, the Great FUK for short?
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fauigerzigerk
45 minutes ago
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UK ISPs do block some domains though.
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gnfargbl
42 minutes ago
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Which does nothing to block 4chan, because everyone knows what a VPN is and how to get one.
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fauigerzigerk
26 minutes ago
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Right, but it shows their mindset. They're not letting China comparisons stop them from doing anything. It's not about the technology. In their mind, it's about the purpose and the legitimacy of any censorship.
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frostiness
20 minutes ago
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Unlike other websites though, VPNs are generally banned from posting on 4chan, which would definitely hurt traffic.
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dmix
28 minutes ago
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The same UK politicians are now pushing to block VPNs. Hence the great firewall talk which they are trying to skirt by fining US companies.
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drcongo
31 minutes ago
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I hope they do block it.
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thunderfork
48 minutes ago
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It's very much a rock-and-a-hard-place situation. "It's an import", so they have to respond to it like they'd respond to imports...

But unlike physical imports, there's a sense that blocking these imports is an affront to base philosophical freedom in a way that prohibiting physical imports isn't.

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akersten
19 minutes ago
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> there's a sense that blocking these imports is an affront to base philosophical freedom in a way that prohibiting physical imports isn't.

It would serve UK legislators well to explore that tingling sense some more before they consider any further efforts in this direction, but that's just my two pence.

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christkv
1 hour ago
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Their goal is to create a presedent so they can start applying it to platforms they don't like. Its happening all over Europe not just the UK and the plan is clear. They want to repress discourse that is not officially sanctioned.
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deaddodo
59 minutes ago
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They can try to set whatever precedent they like. But US courts won't accept the argument, so it'll just stay a fee that accumulates on some paper ledger.
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whatever1
57 minutes ago
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The real goal it to start banning US sites like fb,aws etc so that Europe starts building their own
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chrisjj
1 hour ago
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> 4Chan operates in the US

And the UK... each time it delivers there.

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vorpalhex
46 minutes ago
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4Chan has blocked the entire UK IP range. They do not host any infrastructure there.

They are bound by UK law exactly as much as they are bound by Venutian or Mars law.

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akersten
17 minutes ago
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> 4Chan has blocked the entire UK IP range.

And honestly this is more than they really should even have to do. I think it does go above their obligation. They're doing Offcom a favor here, they don't even have to figure out how to block it themselves.

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richwater
49 minutes ago
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The UK can block whatever they want if they'd like to become an authoritarian firewall state.

But they have no legal basis to fine 4chan.

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wat10000
50 minutes ago
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I disagree. It's no different from selling to a foreign buyer by sending the product in the mail. You're not doing business in their country, and it's the buyer's responsibility to adhere to their local laws about imports, not yours.
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dmix
30 minutes ago
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The lawyer is great on Twitter, he's not only defending 4chan, he's on a crusade to prevent this stuff in the future and trying to get bills passed in the US.

https://x.com/prestonjbyrne

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kps
57 minutes ago
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It's unfortunate that the US lawyers did not cite the reply given in Arkell v Pressdram.
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2b3a51
46 minutes ago
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Arkell v Pressdram was in response to a civil claim that never reached a court, so slightly different. I take the wider point though.
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petcat
1 hour ago
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And now we'll watch the UK take the logical next step which is for the government to mandate that all ISPs in the country block 4chan.

CCP "Great Firewall" style.

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j-krieger
1 hour ago
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You'd be amazed at the times I've argued with people on HN that free speech infringement by the UK government has grown rampant, only for them to enact the next draconian law a month later.
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dmix
24 minutes ago
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UK is trying to be like Russia and China, where a minder will show up at your door if you post something the government doesn't like. Then people online will defend it because the investigation didn't turn into a full criminal charge or they say the people simply deserved it.

The reality is this will seriously chill speech broadly across the country regardless of either of those outcomes, and the technical costs of enforcement will be steep.

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vdqtp3
23 minutes ago
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Same. The responses are consistently "but they only restrict bad speech"
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mikeodds
1 hour ago
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RobotToaster
1 hour ago
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We've had Hadrian's firewall blocking certain piracy sites for years.
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tokyobreakfast
1 hour ago
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Most Brits already have a VPN to beat off so the effect will be negligible.
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jjice
1 hour ago
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"Most" is probably not accurate. I can't imagine the average middle aged individual in the UK has a VPN they use regularly. I'd be pleasantly surprised if that was the case.
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TheOtherHobbes
1 hour ago
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The average middle aged individual probably doesn't read 4chan.

VPN take up in the UK is around 20-25%

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petcat
51 minutes ago
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And then they'll make VPNs illegal
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policno
50 minutes ago
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Not everyone is as pornsick as you seem to think. Your own circle of mastrubators, perhaps. But not most British people.
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Onavo
51 minutes ago
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The directors and officers better not transit through Heathrow without giving the current whitehouse admin a hefty donation first.

Mother Britain will be happy to make an example out of them if Uncle Sam doesn't intervene.

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ecshafer
1 hour ago
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UK fining an American company for this is absurd. 4Chan isn't breaking any laws. You can make it illegal for your own citizens but you can't regulate a foreign business. UK citizens should fight for the right to free speech though.
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giobox
1 hour ago
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While I agree it seems absurd, this is how the UK's unwritten constitution works - the UK Parliament is not restricted to legislating just for the territory of the UK. Of course it can only realistically enforce within UK borders, but it can pass whatever legislation it wishes.

There is a famous quote regarding this nature of British parliamentary sovereignty that is taught to every law student in the UK: "If Parliament enacts that smoking in the streets of Paris is an offence, then it is an offence" - Ivor Jennings.

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okanat
1 hour ago
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This is false. You of course can regulate and fine a foreign business. That's how trade regulations work.

The UK isn't going to get a cent from that but the leadership is banned from entering the UK for the foreseeable future.

Doing this a lot as a country is how you achieve pariah status and losing a bunch of trade, though.

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chrisjj
57 minutes ago
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> the leadership is banned from entering the UK for the foreseeable future

Not at all. But if they do enter, they might find difficulty leaving.

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wat10000
48 minutes ago
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Trade regulations apply to the importer, which might also be the exporter if they have a local presence, but also may not be.

If I buy something illegal off of AliExpress, the US government won't and can't do squat to the seller. If they decide to enforce the law, they'll go after me.

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kasperni
46 minutes ago
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How is this different than, for example, the US fining TikTok? https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-ftc-record-fine-childrens...
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cyberclimb
1 hour ago
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How about the EU imposing GDPR restrictions on non-eu companies?
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ecshafer
6 minutes ago
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It should only affect companies that have a presence in Europe, as in an office or some entity.
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Valodim
1 hour ago
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Depends on whether those businesses want to do business with the EU
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RadiozRadioz
1 hour ago
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I think that's different because I have a positive personal opinion of the GDPR and a negative personal opinion about what the UK is doing. Therefore the GDPR is good and this is bad. It's really quite objective.
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ceayo
57 minutes ago
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The GDPR is about your data being handled overseas.

OFCOM&co is about overseas data going to you.

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chuckadams
1 hour ago
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Amateurs. Russia has fined Google more than the GDP of the entire planet. Odds of collecting are about the same.
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chrisjj
1 hour ago
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Odds of collecting some 4chan execs travelling abroad are a lot higher, though
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vorpalhex
49 minutes ago
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4chan's lawyer, who has been engaging with this well since the beginning, has clearly advised his clients, who have no intent of ever going to the UK, to not go there. In addition, Ofcom does not have the ability to collect them through the EU itself. They must go to the UK.

It already sounds like Ofcom is likely to lose lawsuits about this, as they do not have jurisdiction in the U.S., where 4chan is hosted.

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petcat
34 minutes ago
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> Ofcom is likely to lose lawsuits about this, as they do not have jurisdiction in the U.S.

How would Ofcom even have a lawsuit to lose? Are they going to file it in the US? Of course not, USA courts will tell them to pound sand.

They'll just advise the UK government to block 4chan nationwide. Which is really what they want to do anyway.

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freddydumont
14 minutes ago
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Ofcom doesn’t really wanna block websites though, they want websites to either comply or block themselves, both of which legitimizing Ofcom’s extraterritorial enforcement.
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JamesTRexx
1 hour ago
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4chan doesn't need age checks, everyone knows there are only five year olds on it. :-p
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kps
40 minutes ago
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Those were FBI agents. Expect a knock on your door any time now.
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subscribed
22 minutes ago
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Twenty five years old :-p
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dmitrygr
57 minutes ago
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4chan fighting for us all! Bravo.
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cubefox
1 hour ago
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This part is somewhat surprising to me:

> Data shows that nearly 80% of the top 100 pornography sites in the UK now have age checks in place. This means that on average, every day, over 7 million visitors from the UK are accessing pornography services that have deployed age assurance.

I would have expected that most people would switch to other pornography sites that don't have age checks rather than doing an age check. But apparently that isn't the case. (Or their data is misleading. People in the UK who are using VPNs presumably can't be easily identified as British.)

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rjh29
12 minutes ago
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The first part is true but the second sentence seems dubious to me. Did they compute that from the previous visitor numbers or something?
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Scaled
45 minutes ago
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Yeah, that is ABSOLUTELY a lie.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to include links as a new user but Pornbiz posted an article showing AV lost them 90% of traffic. There's a BBC article where researchers found AV compliant sites were decimated on their top traffic ranking on Similarweb. And I working in the industry saw our traffic drop by 99.9% during our AV test.

Users don't use VPN, they certainly don't upload ID... they just go to noncompliant sites. Don't believe UK government's gaslighting.

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doublerabbit
1 hour ago
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£450k? - Quick, we must show we've done something.

> or requiring Internet Service Providers to block a site in the UK.

Ah, that's what they want.

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rjh29
11 minutes ago
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Yeah. Nobody thinks they will pay the fine, it just shows non compliance.
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ceayo
54 minutes ago
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They probably don't even expect 4chan to pay up - they just want them gone.
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robthebrew
1 hour ago
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4chan is still a thing? I thought it died long ago. Perhaps I grew up.
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nslsm
1 hour ago
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It is, it didn’t, and you didn’t.
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