The truth that haunts the Ramones: 'They sold more T-shirts than records'
119 points
by c420
4 days ago
| 16 comments
| english.elpais.com
| HN
riffraff
3 hours ago
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Well, Brian Eno said of Velvet Underground's first album that it didn't sell many copies but everyone who bought it started a band.
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PunchyHamster
1 hour ago
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I dunno, Seems like author of article is projecting, I feel like most people would be happy if they made that much of an cultural impact
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ChrisMarshallNY
58 minutes ago
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I have a friend that worked with them. I sent him the article. He’d know, if it was correct.
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mrandish
4 hours ago
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I read that Aerosmith made more money from Guitar Hero game royalties than from their albums. And it's been true for a long time that most acts make more from touring and merch than song sales.
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noobermin
3 hours ago
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If you read the article, it will be clear that one of its core theses is that their lighting tech and graphic designer was essentially a pioneer of selling merchandise as a revenue generator for a band.
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deeg
5 hours ago
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If the Ramones put their name on all sorts of merchandise does that make them sellouts?

I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians.

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tbossanova
2 minutes ago
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How are they terrible musicians? They played their specific type of music extremely well. Like, technically better than most people will ever be at music. People loved seeing them play. I still enjoy their records. So, what is terrible?
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rubzah
47 minutes ago
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It's a commercial act, the 'punk' costumes carefully chosen for the right signalling, by a couple of middle class kids. What's with this idea that your taste in music must spring from the purest and rawest authenticity, preferably (in no particular order) poor, rebellious, substance abusing, ethnic, and so on. Leading to all these musical acts styling themselves like that.

The Ramones were sellouts and posers, just like most bands. Wearing them on a t-shirt to signal 'punk', the joke's on you. It's an "industry of cool", like Jack Black's character says in Almost Famous.

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tbossanova
7 minutes ago
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How delightfully cynical. Instead of thinking taste in music “must” spring from your cynical take on what authenticity us (which I agree is impossible to define and almost a useless term at this point), maybe people just… like the music, and it somehow speaks to them. Musical taste is famously subjective and entirely down to what music you heard before etc
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kgwxd
14 minutes ago
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Was Jack Black in Almost Famous? Are you thinking of PSH. I've mixed them up in my head myself, and I have no clue why. I was a Tenacious D fan from day 1, so it's not like they're 2 actors I'm only vaguely familiar with. And they aren't super similar in many ways. Yet they're somehow interchangeable in my movie memories.
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mosessupposed
4 hours ago
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I believe in the idea that if you really do the hell out of something, you can make up for a lot of shortcomings. Quantity and spirit can substitute for quality in almost all artistic pursuits.

Here's Bill Withers on selling out: “Sellout… I’m not crazy about the word. We’re all entrepreneurs. To me, I don’t care if you own a furniture store or whatever – the best sign you can put up is SOLD OUT.”

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card_zero
1 hour ago
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Sell meant "give" in Old English, including the sense of "give up", "surrender", "betray". (Their word for sell was equivalent to *be-buy.)

https://www.etymonline.com/word/sell

Etymonline says the meaning "betray for gain" is from 1200. So this is probably where "sellout" comes from. Compare with "he sold us out".

There's an entry for sellout too: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=sellout "corrupt bargain".

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mtts
3 hours ago
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> they were terrible musicians

Not only are the songs they wrote really good and catchy, Ramones are one of those bands where it sounds so easy anyone can do it but if you give it a try, you quickly find out it’s difficult to get the nuances right and your results, unlike theirs, sound crude and obviously amateurish.

They’re like AC/DC in that respect. Or Melvins.

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pfannkuchen
1 hour ago
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But have you tried recording your version and also playing it in public and promoting it for decades? It’s possible that’s what is making the one thing sound like it has something hard to name, and the other one not.

Like if you are sloppy there is an element of randomness in the output, and any particular randomness will be difficult to replicate.

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donkeybeer
56 minutes ago
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Punk is not easy, they were developing new techniques and song writing approaches. Otherwise you tell me why we talk of Ramones as being different from older rock like say Led Zeppelin. I will say by the time we get to bands like Minor Threat we have genuinely new song structural paradigms that never existed in rock music.

And to say nothing of course of the mechanical finesse and stamina required to play this kind of music.

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saidnooneever
1 hour ago
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for this stuff its mostly just a question of buy same gear really. they play a bit 'wild' so esp live it wasnt like super clean. but the sound is mostly having the right kit including recording gear / setup or live equipment etc. depending on what ur trying to do.

playing sloppy isnt too hard to replicate.

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b00ty4breakfast
2 hours ago
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I know most people don't take the concept of "selling out" seriously anymore, but the Ramones would not be sellouts for making Ramones merch. If they had turned into a hair metal band, where they would otherwise not make hair metal, just so they could sell a bunch of records, that would be selling out. Merely making money is not selling out
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boomboomsubban
1 hour ago
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So something like getting Phil Spector to produce their record?
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b00ty4breakfast
1 hour ago
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given the massive influence of 60s girl groups on the Ramones, I would say that getting one of the architects of that sound to produce their record is not selling out.

To stay on the "hair metal" example I gave, getting Mutt Lange circa Pyromania to produce a Ramones record would be selling out.

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belZaah
5 hours ago
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Terrible in which way? Did not use counterpoint sufficiently elegantly? It’s punk, mate. Try to do a set downpicking like Johnny.
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gexla
2 hours ago
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Yeah, punk was a bit of a rejection of the polish of the big bands of the time. In a sense, the "horrible" was sort of the point. And for the shock value. But did that really mean they were horrible? Probably everyone kind of sucks at first. But it's hard not to improve your skills once you have got to a point where you have done a certain number of shows because you created a sustainable cash flow to support it.
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DeathArrow
2 hours ago
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>I joke, of course, and I'm a big Ramones fan. I've had numerous iterations of that shirt over the years. I often use them as an example when discussing "what is good art?" They are one of the most influential bands of all time and yet they were terrible musicians.

This makes me to wonder why do you and other people like them and why were them influential?

Isn't a band's purpose to produce good music and aren't people supposed to like musicians because they produce good music?

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mingus88
27 seconds ago
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No, for many, wearing band shirts or adopting a specific style is signaling.

The Ramones were middle class kids, who started a band in high school when they were outcasts. They literally crafted new identities, writing tough lyrics and posing for photos with dour expressions.

The style is more important. It’s almost a point of pride that they don’t know how to play. Punk ironically has always been this way. There are so many rules you have to follow to be considered truly punk; you have to rebel in a very specific way. You have to look a certain way or you are out of the club.

In the 80s and 90s, your favorite bands were your identity. Cliques formed based on what obscure band you liked, and if nobody knew who they were, you were even cooler. Dig through the record store crates to find that rare vinyl nobody else has.

Hence more t-shirts sold than albums. Nobody gets your cool signal if you are silently rocking out with headphones on.

Where I grew up, the misfits skull t-shirt was more iconic. Today you can buy it at Target.

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schnitzelstoat
50 minutes ago
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I was wondering the same thing about Iron Maiden the other day - they seem more of a merch company than a heavy metal band these days.

You can get Iron Maiden beer, Iron Maiden wine, Iron Maiden sunglasses etc. let alone the common merch like T-shirts.

Given many more people can buy merch than can buy a concert ticket (which has inherently limited numbers) I wonder how the two revenue sources compare.

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dalmo3
24 minutes ago
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Poor take. In the last three years alone they've played over 100 concerts. Their set is two hours. They're all in/approaching their 70s. If that's not a band, I'm a pterodactyl.
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supernes
37 minutes ago
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It's the same with the "Star Wars" brand - the biggest chunk of revenue comes from merchandise and licensing, not the movies/shows. Lucas famously became a billionaire by securing merchandising rights in his original contract, not because of the cultural impact of the franchise.
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nizbit
37 minutes ago
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Kiss too. Kiss was a merch juggernaut.
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circlefavshape
42 minutes ago
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I get a lot of content about "how to promote your band"* and it's almost ALL about finding "superfans" you can sell merch to - so the actual art is reduced to ads for t-shirts

* I've been in the same (unsuccessful) band since 1987 - obvs I have a day job too

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kleiba
1 hour ago
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Isn't the whole point of touring to sell merchandise?
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slyall
1 hour ago
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Today perhaps. But in the past the artists money from selling records. So the tour was to promote the album, rather than the other way around
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sesm
1 hour ago
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Getting paid for live performance was the traditional way for musicians to earn money for centuries. Record sales was a temporary thing that is now gone.
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kgwxd
10 minutes ago
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Live performance is also now gone.
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musicale
5 hours ago
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They're played every day on the radio, on streaming services, etc. Billions of listens vs. thousands (?) of shirts.
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chii
4 hours ago
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> Billions of listens vs. thousands (?) of shirts.

how much of the revenue derived from those listens turn into commission to the musicians?

Those t-shirt sales came about because of those listens, so even tho the music wasn't as revenue generating, it acts as the biggest funnel.

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bryanrasmussen
4 hours ago
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I mean I sort of believe that most Ramones t-shirt sales came along because of the listens, but then again I see lots of Misfits t-shirts on kids born this century and considering it's in Denmark it seems unlikely it's because their parents were big Misfits fans.

Of course Misfits had a much more impressive visual aesthetic, so that might explain their continuing design relevance.

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flexagoon
4 hours ago
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hdhdhebbbwhwuuw
4 hours ago
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Shawn Stussy printed shirts to promote his surfboards and ended up being the originator of “streetwear”
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FerretFred
3 days ago
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Fascinating! Always love these backstories. The Ramones were brilliant - I don't have a favourite album but my most-watched DVD is The Ramones Story
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jimt1234
6 hours ago
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Seems like The Ramones were way ahead of their time, whether they knew it or not. Before the digital age, most bands made the bulk of their their money from record sales. Concert tours were just promotional events for the latest album. That model has since been flipped to what The Ramones were doing 50 years ago - "music sales" earns little compared to concerts and merchandising. Now that's punk rock! LOL
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follie
3 hours ago
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I think you are describing the most successful bands. I wouldn't be surprised if the average band good enough to play a small venue made more money on the shirts than the records and tapes. People weren't choosing them from among all the bands at the record store but from all the experiences in the town that night.
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locallost
1 hour ago
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I don't mean to be crude, but how can it haunt them, when they're all dead?
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jbstack
1 hour ago
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Wikipedia says 3 of them are still alive (Marky, Richie, C.J.).
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joey1978
5 hours ago
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How does it haunt them when they are dead?
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kleiba
1 hour ago
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And they explicitly said that they didn't wanna be buried on a pet sematary!
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musicale
5 hours ago
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The Ramones are haunting us all.
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mediumsmart
4 days ago
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Made my day. Thank you
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TMWNN
6 hours ago
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Isn't it normal and typical for musical acts to make more money from concert tours and merchandise sales than the music itself?
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plorkyeran
4 hours ago
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As is noted in the article, selling band shirts was not yet common practice when the Ramones starting doing it. Until Napster came along tours were marketing for albums, which were the primary revenue source.
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Gualdrapo
5 hours ago
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I seem to recall reading that Gary Holt or Jack Gibson, either from Exodus, claim that despite being known worldwide as a thrash metal act they have to support themselves selling t-shirts, since their earnings from touring, albums or streamings won't cover their expenses
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brigandish
6 hours ago
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Not in the past. When that change flipped from music sales to merchandise and tours, I couldn’t be sure but I’d reckon the early 2000s.
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hvs
5 hours ago
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It's not that they made more money from merchandise, it's that they sold more t-shirts than albums. Implying that more people were interested in the "image" of punk rock than the music.
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lb1lf
4 hours ago
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I guess that's the definition of 'iconic' - many a time I have approached someone wearing a Ramones or Motörhead T-shirt trying to chat a bit, only to be told 'Sorry, don't know the music at all, but the shirt is cool...'

Gabba gabba hey!

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bryanrasmussen
4 hours ago
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I can wear out a t-shirt much faster than an album, tape or CD, and I am not very caring of the conditions of albums.

I've also never seen anyone slam dance carrying a Ramones album, but I have seen them slam dance wearing a Ramones t-shirt that got tore up.

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